[email protected]

Hi all.
I have a bit of a problem. I have five children, four of whom are school age and the youngest is just wanting to do everything :o)
My problem is this, My third and fourth child do not want to seem to do anything. My third is 8 and in..when she was in school...at the 4th grade level. She is a very intelligent child, but it is getting very hard for me to keep her interest in anything. The same for my fourth child. He is 5 and refuses to do any reading. Now my mother is a teacher so when she gets in she asks what have they done. My son is like, nothing and the other one just looks at you with a blank look.
I am beginning to wonder if I have made the right decision in homeschooling them. What should I do. My third child gave her teacher the same hell that she gives me...as a matter of fact so does my son...so I do not feel so bad. But what can I do.
I am feeling a bit crazy here.

Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/03 5:57:25 PM, yhanley@... writes:

<< Now my mother is a teacher so when she gets in she asks what have they
done. My son is like, nothing and the other one just looks at you with a
blank look.
I am beginning to wonder if I have made the right decision in homeschooling
them. What should I do. >>

For one thing, remember that kids in school also say "nothing" when you ask
what they learned or what happened.

Then tell your mother to back off.

Then read everything at www.unschooling.com
and this:

http://sandradodd.com/reading

(which has one article which is at unschooling.com's library but some other
stuff as well)

Tia Leschke

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
> My problem is this, My third and fourth child do not want to seem to do
anything. My third is 8 and in..when she was in school...at the 4th grade
level. She is a very intelligent child, but it is getting very hard for me
to keep her interest in anything. The same for my fourth child. He is 5 and
refuses to do any reading. Now my mother is a teacher so when she gets in
she asks what have they done. My son is like, nothing and the other one just
looks at you with a blank look.
> I am beginning to wonder if I have made the right decision in
homeschooling them. What should I do. My third child gave her teacher the
same hell that she gives me...as a matter of fact so does my son...so I do
not feel so bad. But what can I do.

I don't understand why it's important for a 5 year old to do any reading.
Even if this wasn't an unschooling list, I'd wonder that. What do they like
to do? What are they interested in? Help them do those things. Take them
interesting places. And most important . . . shut your mother up. She
doesn't get it, and she's going to keep you from getting it. If she is in
any sort of position to make trouble for you, you might want to keep a
learning log for a while and translate what the kids do into educationese.
But that's not a very good way for *you* to get unschooling, so don't do it
unless you have to.
Tia
ps Don't try to keep the 8 year old interested in anything. Get interested
in what interests her.

Stephanie Elms

Now my mother is a teacher so
> when she gets in she asks what have they done. My son is
> like, nothing and the other one just looks at you with a blank look.
> I am beginning to wonder if I have made the right decision in
> homeschooling them. What should I do. My third child gave her
> teacher the same hell that she gives me...as a matter of fact
> so does my son...so I do not feel so bad. But what can I do.
> I am feeling a bit crazy here.

HeHeHE. This happens with my 6 yo and my dad all the time! My dad is not very
supportive of hsing. He often will ask Jason what he is doing for school and
then gets worried when Jason doesn't know LOL! I am actually really glad that
Jason does not know, since we do not "do" school. I have also found that my memory
is not very good when my dad asks *me* what we are doing. Can't seem to think
when I am on the spot.

So my solution (realizing that my dad is just concerned for his grandchildren and
really is a wonderful guy) was to go on the offensive. I have started a sending a monthly
email to my dad, my mom and my ILs detailing all the wonderful things that Jason is doing.
The books we are reading, the things that we have done (specifically talking about all the
socialization we are doing with other hsers ;o) ), the experiments we are doing and
any neat observations he has made that made me realize how smart he is! Basically I put
a schooly bent on our everyday lives (talking about how he is adding numbers without
mentioning that he learned it by playing Parcheesi instead of doing a math worksheet).
Basically I beat my dad to the punch...once he reads a detail email about all the great
things that we are doing he doesn't have to ask and it puts his mind at ease.

It has worked great so far. My dad feels more at ease because he can see the what I see
every day...that Jason is learning like crazy. And it is easier for me to do since I do
not have to think things up on the spot. Plus it really is nice for the grandparents
to see what the boys are interested in. And then if my dad still gets on my case I remind him
that Jason is only 6! LOL! Oh and btw, Jason has not started reading yet and I don't really
expect him too. He loves rhyming, loves word play (thinks that it is cool that a word can
have 2 different meanings) and has an awesome vocabulary so I am not much worried. Plus
I know Jason...he will wait until he is more then ready and then do it overnight. Now
I just need to figure out how to assure my dad of this when the time comes and my dad
expects him to be reading....

Stephanie E.

Fetteroll

on 4/7/03 7:56 PM, yhanley@... at yhanley@... wrote:

> but it is getting very hard for me to keep her interest in anything

What are you trying to keep her interested in? Am I right in assuming it's
school type work?

We know that's not only an impossible task but not a very good way to learn.
That's why we unschool! :-)

What is *she* interested in? What does *she* want to know more about?

And it's okay if she says TV! ;-) As long as she has other things that
interest her just as much available, and isnt choosing TV just because it's
the best of a bad lot of choices, then she's learning.

> He is 5 and refuses to do any reading.

Most kids aren't ready to read at 5, especially boys. And *that's* why
learning to read is so difficult. Because schools make kids do it before
they're ready and before they've had enough fun exposure to books to even
want to read. Learning to read is no more difficult -- and in fact is much
easier since they already have the langauge down and just need to relate
print to what they know -- than learning to speak.

If you make sure his experiences with books are always pleasurable --
snuggle under a blanket on the couch with some hot chocolate, read in bed --
then he will read when he finds it useful for him and when he's
developmentally ready.

> My third child gave her teacher the same hell that she gives me...as a matter
> of fact so does my son...so I do not feel so bad. But what can I do.

Well the first step would be to reconnect with the emotions that say there's
something wrong. If your children are giving you a hard time it's their way
of saying that something is really not right and not making sense to them.
So they are naturally complaining. We think that by forcing kids to do what
they're "supposed" to do that we're doing right and they need to just put up
with it until they figure out that we're right and they're wrong. But the
thing is that we're wrong and they're right. Kids instinctively know how
they're made to learn: by playing. That's what they want to do and they make
it very clear that we're trying to make them go against their nature. We
have to learn to *listen* to what they're telling us (by their actions and
their words) rather than what the experts tell us.

Joyce

[email protected]

It is easier said than done to shut my mother up. She has been the source of many issues and therapists for both me and another sister of mine. The things is that...I don't know... it seems as if I am failing. I have heard that it is not important for a child to read, or forced to read at 5, I have a friend was a former public school teacher who homeschools her children, tell me the same thing. Just go by when they are ready. But when you have a mother who insists on this MUST be done by such and such an age.....can you sense some issues here with me, lol.

What interests the children. That is a good thing. They both love to talk and are fascinated with stories. The boy with dinosaurs and the other with any thing hands on. So I guess that is what I should be working to do. IS find hands on dinosaur related things for them to do. I know they both love the Magic school bus. Science experiments.
Ok I see a plan developing.

Thanks Tia :o)

Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] how to make/get....



"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Thanks Sandra. It gives me comfort to know that I should not be forcing them- him- and that he will come around when he is ready. I have always been the child to do what she wants when she wants and HOW she wants out of my parents seven children. So this is going to be a challenge for me not only as a parent, but as a child of my parents. In particular my mother.
I am envisioning myself one day sitting in a therapist's chair explaining about my life. But I will be quite honest, I have never had the patience nor the fortitude to deal with things such as those.:o)
But this is a great list and I am so glad that all of you are so willing to share your knowledge and help and encouragement so easily and lovingly.
I really do believe I have stumbled upon a gold mine here!

Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] how to make/get....



In a message dated 4/7/03 5:57:25 PM, yhanley@... writes:

<< Now my mother is a teacher so when she gets in she asks what have they
done. My son is like, nothing and the other one just looks at you with a
blank look.
I am beginning to wonder if I have made the right decision in homeschooling
them. What should I do. >>

For one thing, remember that kids in school also say "nothing" when you ask
what they learned or what happened.

Then tell your mother to back off.

Then read everything at www.unschooling.com
and this:

http://sandradodd.com/reading

(which has one article which is at unschooling.com's library but some other
stuff as well)

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

What are you trying to keep her interested in? Am I right in assuming it's
school type work?>>

Yes. I should know better. But I was so great in school and I see her the same way. I was the child who was in every advance class from since the sixth grade and before then was always on top. Actually before I was in the advance classes, school was beginning to get boring. My only traumatic course in school was math. I tell my children that I earned my D in calculus when I graduated from High school doing freshman college math.

I see her the same way. She is an extremely intelligent child. To speak with her you would be amazed. She was reading at an adult level by the time she was in second grade. But now it is as if she is interested in the TV more than doing her work. That is not to say that she won't pick up a book when she is ready or do something else constructive, but I guess when all you know is a regimented structured type of education it is hard to think outside of the box.

<<If you make sure his experiences with books are always pleasurable --
snuggle under a blanket on the couch with some hot chocolate, read in bed --
then he will read when he finds it useful for him and when he's
developmentally ready.>>

Oh I do!! When we go to the library I let him pick out what he wants to read and then we read it when we get home. Right now he has a book on water experiments that he is enjoying looking through and I read it to him when he wants me to. His favorite show right now is the Magic School bus and Sesame Street. SO I let him watch those. Not to mention Dora The Explorer. My children are half Spanish so are continually asking me to speak it to them. Though I don't know enough to teach them correctly. But I try to make it interesting.
For all of them, the 8 year old included, just found out that they have Amerindian blood in them, so that has led to a pique..at least for the 8 year old, in books dealing with Amerindian studies. But unfortunately the books here and the information is difficulty to come by. But the interest is there.

<<Kids instinctively know how
they're made to learn: by playing. That's what they want to do and they make
it very clear that we're trying to make them go against their nature. We
have to learn to *listen* to what they're telling us (by their actions and
their words) rather than what the experts tell us.>>

I know you are right here Joyce so I think I need an unschooling course myself. I had to deal yesterday with my oldest - the 11 year old - crying that she hates homeschooling and that she wants to go back to school. Which frustrated me to no end because when I told them that I would be doing the homeschooling this was the one who yelled out Hooray!! the loudest and could not wait to begin. I guess it has not even lived up to MY expectations of what homeschooling should be. I was keeping them current with what they were doing in school, but then just went a different path. I saw that they were not interested and began just doing history a lot or having them write stories alot. Which my second, the 10 year old - enjoys doing. I can see that I have a lot to learn before I can even begin to school them properly. And now I have my 2 year old showing and interest in reading. Right now she is looking through the science book the 5 year old took out. And I can hear my mother belittling me about not putting more of an emphasis on the reading and if I do not get to them before age 3 then everything is lost and they will never regain those lost years and.....

Yoki

I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/2003 7:17:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
yhanley@... writes:


> That is a good thing. They both love to talk and are fascinated with
> stories. The boy with dinosaurs and the other with any thing hands on. So I
> guess that is what I should be working to do. IS find hands on dinosaur
> related things for them to do. I know they both love the Magic school bus.
> Science experiments.
>

Here's a few ideas, from a mom with kids who also love dinosaurs, telling
stories and Magic School Bus. You can get MSB videos at the library and
here, at least, they show MSB on PBS. My kids love them. We also got a cheap,
old-style tape recorder at a garage sale and my son likes to record himself
telling stories, reading books or just ad-libbing into it. I also gave my son
some wood boards, big nails and small hammer and he went nuts building
things. Hope some of these help you!
Amy Kagey
E-mail me for a list of used
homeschooling books for sale!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Thanks Amy. The tape recorder thing sounds like a great idea. Luckily I get MSB here on cable, TLC, so they are watching that. As for the hammer and things. He has so many Bob the Builder type toys and so on. I need to look into more hands on things for ALL.
His thing is that he will sit and watch Dragon Tales, Sesame Street, and all the nice children shows for the whole day if he can. If I ask him if he wants to do anything else he will say" No thanks" and that is the end of it. Mind you, his grammar and vocabulary is stellar for a child his age, but I am still worried.

Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
----- Original Message -----
From: amycats2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] how to make/get....


In a message dated 4/8/2003 7:17:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
yhanley@... writes:


> That is a good thing. They both love to talk and are fascinated with
> stories. The boy with dinosaurs and the other with any thing hands on. So I
> guess that is what I should be working to do. IS find hands on dinosaur
> related things for them to do. I know they both love the Magic school bus.
> Science experiments.
>

Here's a few ideas, from a mom with kids who also love dinosaurs, telling
stories and Magic School Bus. You can get MSB videos at the library and
here, at least, they show MSB on PBS. My kids love them. We also got a cheap,
old-style tape recorder at a garage sale and my son likes to record himself
telling stories, reading books or just ad-libbing into it. I also gave my son
some wood boards, big nails and small hammer and he went nuts building
things. Hope some of these help you!
Amy Kagey
E-mail me for a list of used
homeschooling books for sale!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> That is a good thing. They both love to talk and are fascinated with
> > stories. The boy with dinosaurs and the other with any thing hands on. So
> I
> > guess that is what I should be working to do. IS find hands on dinosaur
> > related things for them to do. I know they both love the Magic school
> bus.
> > Science experiments.

Another "hands-on" we've done with both boys. They have A LOT of input:

Cameron was a dinosaur FREAK for years. He had a prehistoric room. It was
heavily dormered with lots of nook and crannies. We painted the walls light
blue, but also made large plant leaves (fern-y and palm-like) from the floor
up. I painted these HUGE dinosaurs (and a few small ones) all over the
room---some of their long necks reached around the walls. We had dinosaur
sheets and pillows and lamp and plastic and stuffed dinosaurs EVERYWHERE! I
used chalkboard paint so that he could draw his own on the walls.

Duncan now has a Batcave (Some here have seen it). The walls are the
dark/bright blue. It has a huge glow-in-the-dark bat signal and a Batmobile
and black Gotham City (with glow-in-the-dark windows) and a chalkboard wall.
Batman sheets and Batman characters everwhere. He's also into Spiderman, so
there's a Spiderman corner. He's going to be a Superhero---and as Deb said,
"That's good, because we just don't have enough of those nowadays!" <G>

Cameron has recently re-done his room. He did it ALL himself. It's a CKY room
(his favorite band). He has their logos everywhere. These cool shadow
drawings he's painted on the walls. Really neat.

I like for them to be surrounded by whatever they love. Personalizing their
rooms is a (relatively) cheap and artistic way to create a "haven" and to let
them really get into their interests.

It would be a good way to "start" unschooling. It would take a while to plan
and do (and it would get rid of the "schoolish" ideas and thinking---because
you're so busy).

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>My third child gave her teacher the same hell that she gives me...as a
>>matter of fact so does my son...so I do not feel so bad. But what can I
>>do. I am feeling a bit crazy here.>>

Are you schooling them at home, Yoki? I could see resistance to that. I
can't imagine resistance to an unschooling life. It's all about the freedom
to choose.

How are your kids choosing tospend their time. Try to fucus on what they are
interestedin, not on what they're not doing that maybe a schooled kid is
being coerced to do.

Life is good.
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh




_________________________________________________________________
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Tia Leschke

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
>
> What interests the children. That is a good thing. They both love to talk
and are fascinated with stories. The boy with dinosaurs and the other with
any thing hands on. So I guess that is what I should be working to do. IS
find hands on dinosaur related things for them to do. I know they both love
the Magic school bus. Science experiments.
> Ok I see a plan developing.

This is good. Just don't get attached to your plan. <g> Make it
tentative. And make it entirely optional for the kids. You want to offer
them fun stuff to do that goes with their interests. Then you can show them
other things that relate to those interests.
Tia

Have a Nice Day!

Basically I beat my dad to the punch...once he reads a detail email about all the great
things that we are doing he doesn't have to ask and it puts his mind at ease.<<<<<



This is exactly what I do with my husband.

Kristen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>>I see her the same way. She is an extremely intelligent child. To speak
with her you would be amazed. She was reading at an adult level by the time
she was in second grade. But now it is as if she is interested in the TV
more than doing her work. That is not to say that she won't pick up a book
when she is ready or do something else constructive, but I guess when all
you know is a regimented structured type of education it is hard to think
outside of the box. >>

If the thing she's interested in is TV, give her TV. Let her watch whatever
she wants to watch, and watch some of it with her. The things she chooses
to watch will give you clues as to what else she might be interested in.
Get her videos to watch that relate to her TV watching.


>>Oh I do!! When we go to the library I let him pick out what he wants to
read and then we read it when we get home. Right now he has a book on water
experiments that he is enjoying looking through and I read it to him when he
wants me to. His favorite show right now is the Magic School bus and Sesame
Street. SO I let him watch those. Not to mention Dora The Explorer. My
children are half Spanish so are continually asking me to speak it to them.
Though I don't know enough to teach them correctly. But I try to make it
interesting.>>

I'm assuming from your name that it's their dad who is Spanish. Would he be
willing to talk to them in Spanish? I have friends in Germany who did that.
From day one, the German mother used German and the American father used
English with the kids. They understood English from a very young age but
didn't actually speak it until they came to the States for a visit. I wish
my own parents had done that.



<<For all of them, the 8 year old included, just found out that they have
Amerindian blood in them, so that has led to a pique..at least for the 8
year old, in books dealing with Amerindian studies. But unfortunately the
books here and the information is difficulty to come by. But the interest is
there.>>

http://www.cynthialeitichsmith.com/NativeThemes.htm has lists of books by
and about Amerindians. Historical novels are a great way to learn about any
kind of history, and she also lists contemporary novels with a native theme.



>I know you are right here Joyce so I think I need an unschooling course
myself.

One thing you could do is to not call it a "course". That's schooly
thinking that you're trying to get away from. But yes, you need to learn
lots about unschooling if you want it to work for your kids.

>I had to deal yesterday with my oldest - the 11 year old - crying that she
hates homeschooling and that she wants to go back to school. Which
frustrated me to no >end because when I told them that I would be doing the
homeschooling this was the one who yelled out Hooray!! the loudest and could
not wait to begin. I guess it >has not even lived up to MY expectations of
what homeschooling should be.

Maybd you could try to find out just exactly what she misses about school.
Is it friends? Help her find some new ones or find ways to stay connected
with the ones from school. Does she believe she's not learning anything?
Try keeping a learning log for her. Write downt the things you've noticed
that she knows that she didn't know a while ago. It might surprise you
both. Whatever it is she's missing, help her to find it from home.

>I was keeping them current with what they were doing in school, but then
just went a different path. I saw that they were not interested and began
just doing history >a lot or having them write stories alot. Which my
second, the 10 year old - enjoys doing.

This is good, but maybe you could think about not "having them" do anything
but just offering possibilities.

>I can see that I have a lot to learn before I can even begin to school them
properly.

There's that vocabulary again. You don't *want* to school them, properly or
otherwise. <g> At least I assume you're here because you want to unschool.
It really does help to change the words you use. The words you use reflect
and influence your thinking.

>And now I have my 2 year old showing and interest in reading. Right now she
is looking through the science book the 5 year old took out. And I can hear
my >mother belittling me about not putting more of

The rest of this got clipped somehow. It's great the 2 year old is showing
an interest. Try not to push her in any way, so you don't turn off that
interest. And be prepared for her to get to actual reading in her own sweet
time.
Tia

[email protected]

<< > My third child gave her teacher the same hell that she gives me...as a
matter
> of fact so does my son...so I do not feel so bad. But what can I do. >>

Most likely it's you giving THEM hell without knowing it. <g>

The same kind of damage school does, you can do at home!
So your goal should be NOT to do that school-style damage.

Or if you're determined to think it is NOT damaging, send them back to school
so they can resent professional strangers for ruining their lives, instead of
resenting you.


If kids hate homeschooling, they don't even get to get away from it at 3:00.
They're living there.

Not good. Don't bring school home.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/03 6:46:45 AM, yhanley@... writes:

<< I see her the same way. She is an extremely intelligent child. To speak
with her you would be amazed. She was reading at an adult level by the time
she was in second grade. >>

I have another recommendation for you. Read about Howard Gardner's multiple
intelligences if you haven't already. 'Extremely intelligent' applied just
to verbal is what schools have been doing for a long, long time. SAT tests
are verbal and math, and they declare "genius" on those without regard to how
totally lacking that person might be at music or kinesthetics or
interpersonals. And someone who is an incredible artist, dancer and
counsellor can be declared mentally deficient by those same measures.

It is altogether very, very bad.

And the other suggestion I have is to re-think "reading at an adult level."

Just because someone can sound out derision doesn't mean she knows what it
can mean and has felt it. Just because someone can speak aloud words about
love and motherhood and sexual arousal and grief doesn't mean she has the
first CLUE what she's reading about.

Reading is much more than phonics. It has to do with the stimulation of
thought and ideas. Most good readers don't even have a phonics second when
they're reading fluently. They don't turn those words back into sounds in
the air, but go straight to thought.

Until she has the understanding an adult has, she can't read at an adult
level.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to open up your field of
vision so you see the world as big as it is instead of looking at it through
the small lens of school thinking.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/03 6:46:45 AM, yhanley@... writes:

<< I can see that I have a lot to learn before I can even begin to school
them properly. >>

I bet someone has already massaged this line for you,
but the best thing you can learn is NEVER to begin to school them properly.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/2003 10:00:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> It would be a good way to "start" unschooling. It would take a while to plan
>
> and do (and it would get rid of the "schoolish" ideas and
> thinking---because
> you're so busy).
>

That's exactly what we did without knowing it a few years ago! Cait picked
out dark purplish blue paint (very dark, night sky dark) it took LOTS of
coats to get it as dark as she wanted. We painted yellow glow in the dark
stars all over the walls and then she added glitter paint to the tops which
didn't work with the glow in the dark paint. So repainted them all glitter
first, THEN glow in the dark on top. We used those net type christmas lights
and stapled those to the ceiling, loosely draped sheer fabric we had dyed the
dark dark purple and they sorta billow from the ceiling. She does have
billowy yellow sheers at her window because she wanted more "light" colors
over there with a sheer dark fabric with glittery stars for a topper.

We worked a lot longer on it than it was necessary but it was the very first
thing we did with her home, together. Lots of people complained that they
would NEVER let their child pick out that color paint, telling me how it
would take an "act of god" to cover it up, and many other expressions of
dislike.

We didn't care, she loved it and I loved the joy of her doing her first
really not so prissy pink room, I guess a "big girl" room. There are tons of
star accessories and I think she has one of each in there. She's a big pack
rat, I haven't even seen the floor of her room in years, I'm not sure the
carpet is even under there.

That was one of the very BIGGIES for me, just letting go, not suggesting or
nagging that one should be able to walk in one's room. One should be able to
enter without just flinging themselves from the door way to the bed. One
must be neat and tidy so ones room looks special. All those little hints
that mothers sometimes give (well mine just went in and gathered up anything
on the floor and threw it out, no questions, no compromises, no matter what
it was gone forever). So as she's gathered ever more treasures, in the last
year she's come to find herself sleeping in her sisters old room down the
hall. It was very neat and tidy, not nearly as cute but fine for sleeping
and watching TV. These days...not even close to neat and tidy, which is a
never ending battle when the other children are over.

So would be totally content for me to go into the room and clean it but I
can't, so it stays in totally chaos, and I'm not kidding about not one spot
or corner clear, it is FULL of treasures. One day she will decide there are
things she no longer wants and decide what to do with them. I know this, the
attic is FULL of treasures the older children finally decided they were done
with (but not REALLY done) and one day they won't even want the comfort of
them being at least in the attic ( I hope so anyway, it's running out of
space!)

Isn't it great fun to watch our children create their own habitat and see
what they do with it? Dh finally has accepted it and just has one rule, keep
the door SHUT if you want your room to look like a dump truck backed up and
dumped a load of household things in there. So she keeps the door shut.

I enjoyed hearing about all the creative rooms you have for your children,
anyone else have something really special?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>I have heard that it is not important for a child to read, or forced to
>>read at 5, I have a friend was a former public school teacher who
>>homeschools her children, tell me the same thing. Just go by when they are
>>ready.>>

And what else can you do really? Think about it. How can you teach (coerce,
force, cajole) a child who is not developmentally ready? When they're ready,
they will learn. I've seen it happen over and over. It's not a miracle. It's
just the natural way to learn, on the learner's schedule.

>>But when you have a mother who insists on this MUST be done by such and
>>such an age.....can you sense some issues here with me, lol.>>

She's wrong. At least on this issue you can feel confident that you've done
more research on it than she has. She's wrong. Five year olds don't need to
be taught to read by a certain date. It's counterproductive to the child's
natural flow of learning.

Life is good.
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh





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Have a Nice Day!

Hey this is really cool. My daughter also said she wanted a navy blue room with stars. Now she thinks she'll probably use lighter colors.

The most recent thing has been each girl moved their bed into their closet. *I'm* not real happy with the younger one doing that since her closet is already small, and I'm afraid it will do structural damage (and if it does, my husband will have an aboslute FIT because he will have to fix it (again). But I have a feeling it won't stay that way long. so, I'll just stay quiet for now.

Maybe I'll find a magazine picture that she'd like and she can redesign it that way.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] how to make/get....


In a message dated 4/8/2003 10:00:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> It would be a good way to "start" unschooling. It would take a while to plan
>
> and do (and it would get rid of the "schoolish" ideas and
> thinking---because
> you're so busy).
>

That's exactly what we did without knowing it a few years ago! Cait picked
out dark purplish blue paint (very dark, night sky dark) it took LOTS of
coats to get it as dark as she wanted. We painted yellow glow in the dark
stars all over the walls and then she added glitter paint to the tops which
didn't work with the glow in the dark paint. So repainted them all glitter
first, THEN glow in the dark on top. We used those net type christmas lights
and stapled those to the ceiling, loosely draped sheer fabric we had dyed the
dark dark purple and they sorta billow from the ceiling. She does have
billowy yellow sheers at her window because she wanted more "light" colors
over there with a sheer dark fabric with glittery stars for a topper.

We worked a lot longer on it than it was necessary but it was the very first
thing we did with her home, together. Lots of people complained that they
would NEVER let their child pick out that color paint, telling me how it
would take an "act of god" to cover it up, and many other expressions of
dislike.

We didn't care, she loved it and I loved the joy of her doing her first
really not so prissy pink room, I guess a "big girl" room. There are tons of
star accessories and I think she has one of each in there. She's a big pack
rat, I haven't even seen the floor of her room in years, I'm not sure the
carpet is even under there.

That was one of the very BIGGIES for me, just letting go, not suggesting or
nagging that one should be able to walk in one's room. One should be able to
enter without just flinging themselves from the door way to the bed. One
must be neat and tidy so ones room looks special. All those little hints
that mothers sometimes give (well mine just went in and gathered up anything
on the floor and threw it out, no questions, no compromises, no matter what
it was gone forever). So as she's gathered ever more treasures, in the last
year she's come to find herself sleeping in her sisters old room down the
hall. It was very neat and tidy, not nearly as cute but fine for sleeping
and watching TV. These days...not even close to neat and tidy, which is a
never ending battle when the other children are over.

So would be totally content for me to go into the room and clean it but I
can't, so it stays in totally chaos, and I'm not kidding about not one spot
or corner clear, it is FULL of treasures. One day she will decide there are
things she no longer wants and decide what to do with them. I know this, the
attic is FULL of treasures the older children finally decided they were done
with (but not REALLY done) and one day they won't even want the comfort of
them being at least in the attic ( I hope so anyway, it's running out of
space!)

Isn't it great fun to watch our children create their own habitat and see
what they do with it? Dh finally has accepted it and just has one rule, keep
the door SHUT if you want your room to look like a dump truck backed up and
dumped a load of household things in there. So she keeps the door shut.

I enjoyed hearing about all the creative rooms you have for your children,
anyone else have something really special?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/03 6:46:45 AM, yhanley@... writes:

<< I tell my children that I earned my D in calculus when I graduated from
High school doing freshman college math. >>

I bet they don't care.

Stories about grades and school are nonsense to kids in school. That's a
funny story for you to tell kids. It's probably worth trying to tell them
stories about your life and learning that have nothing to do with school,
whenever you can, for a couple of reasons. They won't relate to school
stories. And you yourself need to review your life and find what was real
and NOT school-based. What things did you learn by playing and talking to
people and experimenting. Those are the models you should build on for
creating opportunities for your kids. And how many more of those real-life
learning situations could you have had if you weren't so focussed on school
and school stuff?

Lots of us here did well in school. Try to get over it. Don't live there
forever. Don't let it be the way you define yourself and identify your worth.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/03 12:57:59 PM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< And what else can you do really? Think about it. How can you teach
(coerce,
force, cajole) a child who is not developmentally ready? When they're ready,
they will learn. I've seen it happen over and over. It's not a miracle. It's
just the natural way to learn, on the learner's schedule. >>

True, and if anyone doubts it, try teaching an eight month old baby to walk.
It truly won't work. And nobody really tries it because it's patently stupid.

But because of school's time/age/grade stuff, and because schools pre-date
any of us being born, and because school is SO big in so many people's lives,
we kinda start thinking of it as something real.

But trying to teach a five year old boy to read is like trying to teach a
baby to walk before he's ready.

First, you don't "teach" babies to walk. They pull up when they want to and
they walk when they can.

It's the same with reading.

SOME five year old boys read. SOME eight month old babies walk. Not many.
And there is NO advantage to it, either. Babies sitting are safer than
babies walking.

Interestingly, one of the recurring discussions among homeschoolers is how to
protect teenaged boys from the evils of the internet. Maybe I should start
saying "Discourage reading." <g>


Damned if reading doesn't lead straight to pornography.

Maybe if fewer men were traumatized about reading, they'd be more into story
porn and less into photographs!

(I'm joking.)

Sandra

Have a Nice Day!

>>>Lots of us here did well in school. Try to get over it. Don't live there
forever. Don't let it be the way you define yourself and identify your worth.<<<<<

I remember when I graduated from nursing school. A total of 16 years of school from K to NS graduation. I didn't know what to do with myself, and I didn't know who I was.
I felt like a leaf blown around with no sense of identity because my whole identity was wrapped up in school.

Even if you LIKE school, its only a fraction of your life, and then REAL life begins.

How do you learn now? I learn by just going out and finding information, by getting involved, and I learn more now than I ever did when I was in school, in spite of the fact that I liked it and I did well there.

Kristen





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/2003 1:46:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, leschke@...
writes:


> I'm assuming from your name that it's their dad who is Spanish. Would he be
> willing to talk to them in Spanish? I have friends in Germany who did
> that.
> From day one, the German mother used German and the American father used
> English with the kids. They understood English from a very young age but
> didn't actually speak it until they came to the States for a visit. I wish
> my own parents had done that.

I've told this here before, but when we were in Germany, there was a couple
with two girls. Dad was American. Mom was Italian. The nanny was Spanish.
They were surrounded by Germans. It wasn't until the oldest turned six and
went to school that she realized that each person did NOT have his own
language that you had to learn! <G> Both girls were multi-lingual, just
because.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
> Interestingly, one of the recurring discussions among homeschoolers is how
to
> protect teenaged boys from the evils of the internet. Maybe I should
start
> saying "Discourage reading." <g>

Considering the stuff my son finds and the fact that he reads as little as
possible . . . no, I don't think *that's* going to work. <g>
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Mary

From: <yhanley@...>

<<But this is a great list and I am so glad that all of you are so willing
to share your knowledge and help and encouragement so easily and lovingly.
I really do believe I have stumbled upon a gold mine here!

Yoki>>



I just thought this was so sweet and in light of the past few days just
thought it should be read again. <BEG>
I feel the same way.

Mary B

[email protected]

I am schooling them at home. I just recently decided to take them out of conventional school. I just felt that they were not getting the education that they should be getting and I was tired of hearing about the fights and the trouble and the kids that kept doing this and that. Also I have had my fill of teachers that take out their frustrations on someone else's child. But it has not been easy, but I am getting a support I need though so things will be getting better for me.

Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma *
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] how to make/get....



>>My third child gave her teacher the same hell that she gives me...as a
>>matter of fact so does my son...so I do not feel so bad. But what can I
>>do. I am feeling a bit crazy here.>>

Are you schooling them at home, Yoki? I could see resistance to that. I
can't imagine resistance to an unschooling life. It's all about the freedom
to choose.

How are your kids choosing tospend their time. Try to fucus on what they are
interestedin, not on what they're not doing that maybe a schooled kid is
being coerced to do.

Life is good.
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Which I try to do when we go to the beach. I try to explain about the tides and the effect of the sun and the moon on the waves. While they are swimming I ask them if they can feel when the water changes temp. or when a different feel comes into the water. They even go fishing, so I guess that they do get a bit of learning in and have fun at the same time.

Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] how to make/get....



"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
>
> What interests the children. That is a good thing. They both love to talk
and are fascinated with stories. The boy with dinosaurs and the other with
any thing hands on. So I guess that is what I should be working to do. IS
find hands on dinosaur related things for them to do. I know they both love
the Magic school bus. Science experiments.
> Ok I see a plan developing.

This is good. Just don't get attached to your plan. <g> Make it
tentative. And make it entirely optional for the kids. You want to offer
them fun stuff to do that goes with their interests. Then you can show them
other things that relate to those interests.
Tia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

You have not made me feel bad. But I will tell you something funny. Yes she reads on an adult level and if you ask her what she just read she explains it to you and breaks it down. She has an uncanny way with words and how she uses them. That is one child that I have never had to say..you used the word wrong. She not only knows how to say them, but she knows what they mean. Her interpersonal skills are wicked good. She can see someone either her age, younger or older and begin to a conversation with them like nothing. Sometimes you forget that you are speaking to an 8 year old. I have actually witnessed her dumbing down herself so as not to get "ridden" by children her own age. Her one problem is her math. But that is not because she does not know it, she just does not feel the need to use it right now. When she does need it she is brilliant, but if she cannot see the application for it in the here and now then forget it.

Yoki
I cried unto the Lord with my voice,
and He heard me out of His holy hill.
Selah
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] how to make/get....



In a message dated 4/8/03 6:46:45 AM, yhanley@... writes:

<< I see her the same way. She is an extremely intelligent child. To speak
with her you would be amazed. She was reading at an adult level by the time
she was in second grade. >>

I have another recommendation for you. Read about Howard Gardner's multiple
intelligences if you haven't already. 'Extremely intelligent' applied just
to verbal is what schools have been doing for a long, long time. SAT tests
are verbal and math, and they declare "genius" on those without regard to how
totally lacking that person might be at music or kinesthetics or
interpersonals. And someone who is an incredible artist, dancer and
counsellor can be declared mentally deficient by those same measures.

It is altogether very, very bad.

And the other suggestion I have is to re-think "reading at an adult level."

Just because someone can sound out derision doesn't mean she knows what it
can mean and has felt it. Just because someone can speak aloud words about
love and motherhood and sexual arousal and grief doesn't mean she has the
first CLUE what she's reading about.

Reading is much more than phonics. It has to do with the stimulation of
thought and ideas. Most good readers don't even have a phonics second when
they're reading fluently. They don't turn those words back into sounds in
the air, but go straight to thought.

Until she has the understanding an adult has, she can't read at an adult
level.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to open up your field of
vision so you see the world as big as it is instead of looking at it through
the small lens of school thinking.

Sandra

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