Re: plug in drug conversation
Deborah Lewis
***I'm sure I'll be blasted again with anything I say ***
We are not interested in blasting you. We're interested in discussing
unschooling ideas.
***There's got to be a rabble rouser in every crowd ***
No there really doesn't. You're being funny maybe but coming here to
raise heck doesn't seem beneficial to anyone, least of all you.
***When I said that if anyone wants to watch TV then they have to be
willing to be away from the rest of the family, that was sometimes true
but what usually happens is that this means we all watch TV
together. This would not happen if the tv was elsewhere. If it was in
the livingroom, we would keep on doing other activities and not tune in
to what is on the tube. I see this happen at my mil's all the time. She
turns it on and walks away and they end up watching some really
inappropriate (in my opinion) things. We like to watch with the kids so
we can talk about what they are seeing.***
This makes absolutely no sense.
You keep the TV away from family life because if it was where you could
all see it, it might not get watched?
I think we understood the first time. You banished the TV and anyone
interested in it to the basement with cold disregard to the needs of the
other members of the household. They may learn to regard your
interests and needs in the same manner.
***I was raised without a tv for my entire childhood and I thank my
parents for making that decision. I know I would have spent many hours
on my butt watching idiotic shows and commercials***
You can't know that because it was never an option for you. If you had
chosen TV it would have been your choice and not the TV's. You get to
take responsibility for that.
***I want my kids outside rather than in front of some mindless show.***
What about what your kids want? Is part of the reason you're
unschooling to help your kids do what they want?
***Kids need to know there are boundries and that those bounderies will
move as they are ready. I know kids who have never had boundries
with their parents. They are allowed to have coke and cookies for
breakfast adn watch r rated movies at age 6. This doesn't serve the
child in the long run as they feel so alone in their decision making.
There is no one to fall back on, to get advice from. ***
You know, if a coke and cookies are ok after lunch then their ok anytime.
They don't magically change to Drano if you eat them in the morning.
It's exactly the same thing no matter what time of day it's consumed.
Now, if you're entirely against coke and cookies that's another matter.
Maybe you're new to unschooling and don't completely understand the
difference between it and neglect. Unschooling is NOT neglect.
Unschooling parents are profoundly involved in their children's lives,
helping and supporting and offering experience. They are interested
in keeping their kids safe and helping their children achieve their
personal goals. They are NOT interested in forcing children to meet the
parents goals and expectations. Unschooled children know they can come
to their parents for ANY reason, ANY help, with ANY question or problem
or inspiration or joy and their needs will be met. Unschooling parents
become adept at anticipating their children's needs and inspirations and
joys and do what they can to help fulfill them. It is total
involvement, not lack of involvement. Total interest in the lives and
well being of their children.
You didn't really mean to imply we are neglectful did you? You didn't
really imagine we have not given this long thought and consideration and
much research? You didn't imagine we haven't seen with our own eyes the
health and joy in our children because of unschooling?
Deb L
We are not interested in blasting you. We're interested in discussing
unschooling ideas.
***There's got to be a rabble rouser in every crowd ***
No there really doesn't. You're being funny maybe but coming here to
raise heck doesn't seem beneficial to anyone, least of all you.
***When I said that if anyone wants to watch TV then they have to be
willing to be away from the rest of the family, that was sometimes true
but what usually happens is that this means we all watch TV
together. This would not happen if the tv was elsewhere. If it was in
the livingroom, we would keep on doing other activities and not tune in
to what is on the tube. I see this happen at my mil's all the time. She
turns it on and walks away and they end up watching some really
inappropriate (in my opinion) things. We like to watch with the kids so
we can talk about what they are seeing.***
This makes absolutely no sense.
You keep the TV away from family life because if it was where you could
all see it, it might not get watched?
I think we understood the first time. You banished the TV and anyone
interested in it to the basement with cold disregard to the needs of the
other members of the household. They may learn to regard your
interests and needs in the same manner.
***I was raised without a tv for my entire childhood and I thank my
parents for making that decision. I know I would have spent many hours
on my butt watching idiotic shows and commercials***
You can't know that because it was never an option for you. If you had
chosen TV it would have been your choice and not the TV's. You get to
take responsibility for that.
***I want my kids outside rather than in front of some mindless show.***
What about what your kids want? Is part of the reason you're
unschooling to help your kids do what they want?
***Kids need to know there are boundries and that those bounderies will
move as they are ready. I know kids who have never had boundries
with their parents. They are allowed to have coke and cookies for
breakfast adn watch r rated movies at age 6. This doesn't serve the
child in the long run as they feel so alone in their decision making.
There is no one to fall back on, to get advice from. ***
You know, if a coke and cookies are ok after lunch then their ok anytime.
They don't magically change to Drano if you eat them in the morning.
It's exactly the same thing no matter what time of day it's consumed.
Now, if you're entirely against coke and cookies that's another matter.
Maybe you're new to unschooling and don't completely understand the
difference between it and neglect. Unschooling is NOT neglect.
Unschooling parents are profoundly involved in their children's lives,
helping and supporting and offering experience. They are interested
in keeping their kids safe and helping their children achieve their
personal goals. They are NOT interested in forcing children to meet the
parents goals and expectations. Unschooled children know they can come
to their parents for ANY reason, ANY help, with ANY question or problem
or inspiration or joy and their needs will be met. Unschooling parents
become adept at anticipating their children's needs and inspirations and
joys and do what they can to help fulfill them. It is total
involvement, not lack of involvement. Total interest in the lives and
well being of their children.
You didn't really mean to imply we are neglectful did you? You didn't
really imagine we have not given this long thought and consideration and
much research? You didn't imagine we haven't seen with our own eyes the
health and joy in our children because of unschooling?
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/30/03 6:29:24 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< -=I know kids who have never had
boundries with their parents. They are allowed to have coke and cookies for
breakfast
adn watch r rated movies at age 6. This doesn't serve the child in the long
run as they feel so alone in their decision making.-=- >>
I know of kids like this too, and you seem to be equating our advice with
that type of parenting (or lack of parenting actually).
It's nowhere near the same.
We rarely have soda in the house, but if when we do, my kids will more likely
choose oatmeal and soy milk over cookies and soda. I've watched Trevor eat a
big bowl of ice cream before dinner and then load up on green beans and
potatoes.
Food is just food here. They aren't shamed for eating things I think are
unhealthy.
They are given information, both how nutritious certain foods are and also
the problems certain foods can POTENTIALLY cause. I don't use scare tactics,
I try to stick with facts. An occasional soda is unlikely to harm anyone
unless they're diabetic or something. As much as I think it's harmful, I do
think they are capable of choosing for themselves.
If any of my children were really interested in a particular movie, I would
find a way to make it work....either by warning them of potentially
disturbing scenes or helping them edit to their satisfaction.
I have a 13 y.o. that will not watch rated R. He tells people "I can't watch
rated R", I questioned him on this since I don't tell him he can't. His
answer was "It's true Mom, I didn't say YOU wouldn't let me, I said I can't
watch them. I'm not ready for rated R yet"
Dh and I have tried to get him to watch Braveheart with us, but he doesn't
feel ready for that intense of a movie yet!! He knows himself. I'm very glad
for that....a level of self knowing he couldn't have gained if I'd continued
to be controlling.
Not forbidding things doesn't mean "hands off" in any way. We are there,
guiding with information and being a safety net for our children. That is WAY
different than someone that only provides unhealthy food, overly intense
movies and then leaves a child to themselves.
My children are surrounded by lots and lots of choices. And they make the
choices that are best for them at any given moment. It's cool.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< -=I know kids who have never had
boundries with their parents. They are allowed to have coke and cookies for
breakfast
adn watch r rated movies at age 6. This doesn't serve the child in the long
run as they feel so alone in their decision making.-=- >>
I know of kids like this too, and you seem to be equating our advice with
that type of parenting (or lack of parenting actually).
It's nowhere near the same.
We rarely have soda in the house, but if when we do, my kids will more likely
choose oatmeal and soy milk over cookies and soda. I've watched Trevor eat a
big bowl of ice cream before dinner and then load up on green beans and
potatoes.
Food is just food here. They aren't shamed for eating things I think are
unhealthy.
They are given information, both how nutritious certain foods are and also
the problems certain foods can POTENTIALLY cause. I don't use scare tactics,
I try to stick with facts. An occasional soda is unlikely to harm anyone
unless they're diabetic or something. As much as I think it's harmful, I do
think they are capable of choosing for themselves.
If any of my children were really interested in a particular movie, I would
find a way to make it work....either by warning them of potentially
disturbing scenes or helping them edit to their satisfaction.
I have a 13 y.o. that will not watch rated R. He tells people "I can't watch
rated R", I questioned him on this since I don't tell him he can't. His
answer was "It's true Mom, I didn't say YOU wouldn't let me, I said I can't
watch them. I'm not ready for rated R yet"
Dh and I have tried to get him to watch Braveheart with us, but he doesn't
feel ready for that intense of a movie yet!! He knows himself. I'm very glad
for that....a level of self knowing he couldn't have gained if I'd continued
to be controlling.
Not forbidding things doesn't mean "hands off" in any way. We are there,
guiding with information and being a safety net for our children. That is WAY
different than someone that only provides unhealthy food, overly intense
movies and then leaves a child to themselves.
My children are surrounded by lots and lots of choices. And they make the
choices that are best for them at any given moment. It's cool.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/30/03 6:29:24 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< > I want my kids outside rather than in front of some mindlessshow. >>
This kind of comment does bother me.
You are basically implying that we DO want our children in front of some
"mindless" show instead of doing other things. I also cringe when I hear
parents say *I* want my children ___________instead of_________."
As though what YOU want for their lives is somehow the only thing that
matters.
I know that you care deeply for your children...that is very evident. I hope
you don't think that by tearing apart idea or trying to help you see another
side of this issue, you don't take that as a slam against your parenting.
I was a loving, caring Mom when I restricted tv.
But breaking down that wall has made our relationships MUCH better. The kids
trust me more. I enjoy tv more by seeing it through their eyes.
I also see no "mindless" viewing going on.
I see their vocabulary developing rapidly, interest in history, observation
of human interactions and what drives behavior and good consumer skills being
developed.
There is so much to be gained.
I will never demonize one method of gaining information again....it's
nonsense to say any method of communication is "mindless".
It shows more about the myths that society has bought into than actual truth.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< > I want my kids outside rather than in front of some mindlessshow. >>
This kind of comment does bother me.
You are basically implying that we DO want our children in front of some
"mindless" show instead of doing other things. I also cringe when I hear
parents say *I* want my children ___________instead of_________."
As though what YOU want for their lives is somehow the only thing that
matters.
I know that you care deeply for your children...that is very evident. I hope
you don't think that by tearing apart idea or trying to help you see another
side of this issue, you don't take that as a slam against your parenting.
I was a loving, caring Mom when I restricted tv.
But breaking down that wall has made our relationships MUCH better. The kids
trust me more. I enjoy tv more by seeing it through their eyes.
I also see no "mindless" viewing going on.
I see their vocabulary developing rapidly, interest in history, observation
of human interactions and what drives behavior and good consumer skills being
developed.
There is so much to be gained.
I will never demonize one method of gaining information again....it's
nonsense to say any method of communication is "mindless".
It shows more about the myths that society has bought into than actual truth.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
Heidi and Brent Ricks
>Ren, Thank you for this! It is what I needed to hear to break down my defensiveness and really be able to hear what all of you are saying. I am sitting here crying as I write this. Having all your
>
> I know that you care deeply for your children...that is very evident. I hope
> you don't think that by tearing apart idea or trying to help you see another
> side of this issue, you don't take that as a slam against your parenting.
> I was a loving, caring Mom when I restricted tv.
> But breaking down that wall has made our relationships MUCH better. The kids
> trust me more. I enjoy tv more by seeing it through their eyes.
notions that what you thought was the right choice has in fact been hurtful is not an easy thing to look at. I'm not at all sure where this will lead but it has been a wild couple of days for me on
lots of levels and it will take a while to intigrate all I'm feeling.
Heidi R
Tia Leschke
> > I know that you care deeply for your children...that is very evident. Ihope
> > you don't think that by tearing apart idea or trying to help you seeanother
> > side of this issue, you don't take that as a slam against yourparenting.
> > I was a loving, caring Mom when I restricted tv.kids
> > But breaking down that wall has made our relationships MUCH better. The
> > trust me more. I enjoy tv more by seeing it through their eyes.defensiveness and really be able to hear what all of you are saying. I am
>
> Ren, Thank you for this! It is what I needed to hear to break down my
sitting here crying as I write this. Having all your
> notions that what you thought was the right choice has in fact beenhurtful is not an easy thing to look at. I'm not at all sure where this
will lead but it has been a wild couple of days for me on
> lots of levels and it will take a while to intigrate all I'm feeling.I wonder if this is a key to some of the unpleasantness we get here. Maybe
we just aren't always taking the time to let new people know that we believe
that they're doing what they're doing *because* they care so much about
their kids. We aren't remembering to validate them as caring parents, so
they get defensive and can't hear what we're saying. They just end up
hearing meanness.
Tia
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporarysaftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
>I wonder if this is a key to some of the unpleasantness we get here. Maybe..except that I see it as a kindness, when people are blunt/straightforward
>we just aren't always taking the time to let new people know that we believe
>that they're doing what they're doing *because* they care so much about
>their kids. We aren't remembering to validate them as caring parents, so
>they get defensive and can't hear what we're saying. They just end up
>hearing meanness.
on this list. When they tell the truth as they see it, and not pretend to
accept another person's non-unschooling philosophy as 'their way' of doing
things. I'm on other lists where everyone's warned to 'not rock the boat'
and very few people actually take on a really new way of looking at
things. They just plod along, looking for that magic curriculum that'll
make their lives wonderful. Honest. It's the creepiest thing.
The funny thing is that, while on this list, I don't remember anyone
actually being mean. Nobody. Punches aren't pulled because they aren't
even thrown!!! Sometimes hard truths are said, but if nobody ever said
the hard truths, would the listener recognize them as quickly and outgrow them?
Okay, okay, so I'm rambling, but let me leave you with my favorite
comics-story/thought exercise for this. (Yeah, I like the comics!):
A zen master stands before a student and the student asks, What is the
meaning of life? The zen master thumps him on the head with a stick. The
next day, the same thing happens. And so on. And so on. One day, the
student doesn't need to ask and you see the student and master smiling.
I used to think this example was incredibly cruel. Why didn't the master
explain the meaning of life? It would have been so easy and painless for
them both! After many, many years of thinking of this story, I finally
realized. The student *couldn't* grow in understanding until he had gotten
past the expectations, the false presumptions of how 'growing in
understanding' works. The master was wacking him to try and help him 'wake
up', to get him upset enough that he would begin to question his own
presumptions, his own prejudices and perspectives... to release them.
This list, and another I am on, are like that zen master. Thumping folks
on the head, to help them wake up to awareness, to help them realize that
they need to look past their presumptions and prejudices. (not that we
should run around thwacking the searchers with sticks, eh? A little truth,
yes.) I occasionally get thumped, and thank goodness for it. Sometimes, I
call a little truth and someone else is 'thumped'.
Wake Up! Look Around You!
HeidiWD
Jana Eagle
yes, thanks ren from me too for re-posting all those old messages that
you wrote on the list a couple of years ago. i read them all and it
was really helpful for me to see where you are coming from. it sounds
like i am in the same place you were.
sorry if i have missed replying to many of the posts you all have
written to me. this is such a busy list, but i am reading it all.
let's just say that i have had my world turned upside down in the last
few days, ok?
i have major communication problems with my family of origin, and up
until a few days ago, i was blaming the television for it. every
night we would all sit in front of the tv, absorbed in the sitcoms,
and when the tv wasn't taking over our life, i would be subjecting to
teasing and coersion (basically). i think my family put up a good
front that everything was okay but i wanted to do different things
than my sisters and brother, i would have thrived if i were permitted
to stay at home and draw all day.
i accept that i can have a good relationship with my
daughter while including her interests like tv and computer games.
and i accept that i will probably not have a trusting relationship
with her if i am preventing her from doing something that she likes
(watching tv).
so if i have as my goal to be an unschooler, and to be available to my
daughter to explore life with her, just wondering what do i do about
my anger? there are so many things i feel i missed out on when i was
a kid-- i saw tv as the culprit but i can accept that it was only a
scapegoat-- and i think i force myself too much to be the strong one
when i don't feel very in control. no easy answers, but i thought i'd
ask anyway.
jana
Heidi and Brent Ricks <rickshei@...> writes:
you wrote on the list a couple of years ago. i read them all and it
was really helpful for me to see where you are coming from. it sounds
like i am in the same place you were.
sorry if i have missed replying to many of the posts you all have
written to me. this is such a busy list, but i am reading it all.
let's just say that i have had my world turned upside down in the last
few days, ok?
i have major communication problems with my family of origin, and up
until a few days ago, i was blaming the television for it. every
night we would all sit in front of the tv, absorbed in the sitcoms,
and when the tv wasn't taking over our life, i would be subjecting to
teasing and coersion (basically). i think my family put up a good
front that everything was okay but i wanted to do different things
than my sisters and brother, i would have thrived if i were permitted
to stay at home and draw all day.
i accept that i can have a good relationship with my
daughter while including her interests like tv and computer games.
and i accept that i will probably not have a trusting relationship
with her if i am preventing her from doing something that she likes
(watching tv).
so if i have as my goal to be an unschooler, and to be available to my
daughter to explore life with her, just wondering what do i do about
my anger? there are so many things i feel i missed out on when i was
a kid-- i saw tv as the culprit but i can accept that it was only a
scapegoat-- and i think i force myself too much to be the strong one
when i don't feel very in control. no easy answers, but i thought i'd
ask anyway.
jana
Heidi and Brent Ricks <rickshei@...> writes:
> >
> >
> > I know that you care deeply for your children...that is very evident. I hope
> > you don't think that by tearing apart idea or trying to help you see another
> > side of this issue, you don't take that as a slam against your parenting.
> > I was a loving, caring Mom when I restricted tv.
> > But breaking down that wall has made our relationships MUCH better. The kids
> > trust me more. I enjoy tv more by seeing it through their eyes.
>
> Ren, Thank you for this! It is what I needed to hear to break down my defensiveness and really be able to hear what all of you are saying. I am sitting here crying as I write this. Having all your
> notions that what you thought was the right choice has in fact been hurtful is not an easy thing to look at. I'm not at all sure where this will lead but it has been a wild couple of days for me on
> lots of levels and it will take a while to intigrate all I'm feeling.
>
> Heidi R
>
>
>
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>
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>
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Heidi and Brent Ricks
>As a relatively new person on this site, I have to say wholeheartedly YES to this assessment. I personally haven't taken it as meanness (most of the time, though there have been a few borderline
>
> I wonder if this is a key to some of the unpleasantness we get here. Maybe
> we just aren't always taking the time to let new people know that we believe
> that they're doing what they're doing *because* they care so much about
> their kids. We aren't remembering to validate them as caring parents, so
> they get defensive and can't hear what we're saying. They just end up
> hearing meanness.
> Tia
>
comments here and there). As I was thinking about this today, I started to equate the personalities here to aspect of the Goddess. There are those Goddesses who present a soft, gentle and loving
aspect of the divine (Kwan Yin, Sophia), there are those who are the destroyers of illusions who are anything but gentle (Kali), there are the nurturing earth mothers (Pachamama) and many more. All of
these aspects of the divine are represented in the voices on this list. I feel like I know when I open posts by different poeple that I am going to probably be given one or another of these
interpretations on any given topic. That's OK but sometimes it is a whole lot easier to hear things when they are said with loving, caring words. That doesn't mean that those who cut to the quick are
not loving, caring people. They just have their own way of expressing it and that way is absolutely appropriate and valid too. It's just an awareness; you could all be saying the same thing but the
tone with which it is said will resonate with some and not with others.
Heidi R
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/30/03 3:56:09 PM, jana@... writes:
<< what do i do about
my anger? there are so many things i feel i missed out on when i was
a kid-- >>
You can heal your inner child by doing for your daughter what you wish people
had done for you.
Each time you have a moment at a decision-making point, think of yourself, at
her age, and what you would ideally have liked to have had *your* mom say or
do, and then try to be that ideal mom.
Sandra
<< what do i do about
my anger? there are so many things i feel i missed out on when i was
a kid-- >>
You can heal your inner child by doing for your daughter what you wish people
had done for you.
Each time you have a moment at a decision-making point, think of yourself, at
her age, and what you would ideally have liked to have had *your* mom say or
do, and then try to be that ideal mom.
Sandra
Jana Eagle
SandraDodd@... writes:
already, by getting rid of our television.
So as I understand it, your point is that if I want to unschool, I
have to listen to what my daughter is asking for, and if she is asking
for tv, then there is something she needs from it?
jana
> You can heal your inner child by doing for your daughter what youI think this is good advice. I guess thought I was doing that
> wish people had done for you.
>
> Each time you have a moment at a decision-making point, think of
> yourself, at her age, and what you would ideally have liked to have
> had *your* mom say or do, and then try to be that ideal mom.
already, by getting rid of our television.
So as I understand it, your point is that if I want to unschool, I
have to listen to what my daughter is asking for, and if she is asking
for tv, then there is something she needs from it?
jana
moonstarshooter
> You can heal your inner child by doing for your daughter what youwish people
> had done for you.yourself, at
>
> Each time you have a moment at a decision-making point, think of
> her age, and what you would ideally have liked to have had *your*mom say or
> do, and then try to be that ideal mom.That suggestion is SO great. There have been several times in the
>
> Sandra
past (when I was limiting my daughter's tv viewing) that she would
get to play on a friend's gameboy or playstation, and of course, she
wanted to have one almost even more than she wanted tv. And the
reason that I didn't want to buy it for her was that I thought, "Oh
great, one more thing for her to be asking to do all the time that I
will have to tell her no about." As my no's starting fading into the
past, I started thinking about the whole gaming thing. And I
remembered my dad's reason for not buying us an Atari when I begged
to have one: "There are kids who are robbing people just to get
quarters to play those games at arcades." Even as an adult, I don't
get that logic.
So I had decided to surprise her with a playstation or gamecube for
her birthday next month. Imagine my surprise when my nephew brought
over their old super nintendo for her to have, since they don't use
it anymore! A month ago, I would have been stressed and upset about
it. But now it gave me joy! I am able to look at my daughter
playing and feel happy, not worried about whether it is going to rot
her brain or something.
And it is funny because since we have shifted towards unschooling, I
have been trying to figure out how my daughter can come to see that
not everything she learns has to come from me. She has had these
games for three days now, and she will call me over to help her do
some task that she is struggling with, and I will try, and I can't
even get past the easy part to get to the part where she needs help.
She is sitting there telling me I need to to this and that, and I
just look at her and say, "You know more about this than I do. I
can't help you. But I know you will figure it out when you play it
more." What a boost for her to realize that there are some really
neat, fun things she can do better than me, and that she doesn't need
me to show her how! (What a boost for ME!)
I get kind of wordy in my posts here, but I just am overflowing with
joy like I have not had in quite some time. I have always felt like
I loved parenting until around 18 months when all I ever felt like I
was doing was saying no. But by listening to the advice of the wise
women on this board, I learned to listen to what my heart knew I
should be doing all along.
Mary
From: "Jana Eagle" <jana@...>
<< I think this is good advice. I guess thought I was doing that
already, by getting rid of our television.
So as I understand it, your point is that if I want to unschool, I
have to listen to what my daughter is asking for, and if she is asking
for tv, then there is something she needs from it?>>
Yes!
Okay I can't just leave it at that. It's wonderful advice for everyone I
think whether you unschool or not. Too many parents I believe just don't put
themselves in their children's place and try to understand. You hear it all
the time with teenagers. "Gee, don't you remember when you were that age?" I
guess it's not so easy with little children. I'm trying real hard to do that
now with my children in a different way. When it comes to their emotions
that I can't understand and relate to. It's not easy when I look at my
children who are totally different from when I was younger and even from
each other. But if I just try to imagine what is so upsetting for them to be
acting this way (when they lose it) then it helps me greatly. I never looked
at like that except when they were babies. Once they got to be 5 or 6, I
figured they could verbally express what was going on. Never looked at it
from a different point of view. I think Deb was the one that mentioned how
her brother bugged her with something that was probably no big deal to
anyone else. To her it was. Gave me a whole new outlook on what my kids deal
with. I digress. It's late.......or early
But yes your daughter wants the tv for a reason. And it might even be just
to see what it's all about. But she'll still be learning something from it,
no matter what she watches.
Mary B
<< I think this is good advice. I guess thought I was doing that
already, by getting rid of our television.
So as I understand it, your point is that if I want to unschool, I
have to listen to what my daughter is asking for, and if she is asking
for tv, then there is something she needs from it?>>
Yes!
Okay I can't just leave it at that. It's wonderful advice for everyone I
think whether you unschool or not. Too many parents I believe just don't put
themselves in their children's place and try to understand. You hear it all
the time with teenagers. "Gee, don't you remember when you were that age?" I
guess it's not so easy with little children. I'm trying real hard to do that
now with my children in a different way. When it comes to their emotions
that I can't understand and relate to. It's not easy when I look at my
children who are totally different from when I was younger and even from
each other. But if I just try to imagine what is so upsetting for them to be
acting this way (when they lose it) then it helps me greatly. I never looked
at like that except when they were babies. Once they got to be 5 or 6, I
figured they could verbally express what was going on. Never looked at it
from a different point of view. I think Deb was the one that mentioned how
her brother bugged her with something that was probably no big deal to
anyone else. To her it was. Gave me a whole new outlook on what my kids deal
with. I digress. It's late.......or early
But yes your daughter wants the tv for a reason. And it might even be just
to see what it's all about. But she'll still be learning something from it,
no matter what she watches.
Mary B
Fetteroll
on 3/31/03 3:02 AM, moonstarshooter at torywalk@... wrote:
There are online walk throughs of games at www.gamefaqs.com You can search
for keywords in the text to get to the part she's stuck on.
You can also type in some keywords into Google.
Joyce
> she will call me over to help her doI know what you mean!
> some task that she is struggling with, and I will try, and I can't
> even get past the easy part to get to the part where she needs help.
There are online walk throughs of games at www.gamefaqs.com You can search
for keywords in the text to get to the part she's stuck on.
You can also type in some keywords into Google.
> But by listening to the advice of the wiseAwesome! What a great gift you've given her! :-)
> women on this board, I learned to listen to what my heart knew I
> should be doing all along.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 3/31/03 3:05 AM, Mary at mummy124@... wrote:
They put *themselves* with *their* understanding in their kids' place. They
don't take on their children's view point and understanding.
kids have to learn how wrong they are.
We can understand our kids better when we look at their world through
*their* understanding and respect it.
Joyce
> Too many parents I believe just don't putI think parents do do that though they think they're doing what you meant.
> themselves in their children's place and try to understand.
They put *themselves* with *their* understanding in their kids' place. They
don't take on their children's view point and understanding.
> "Gee, don't you remember when you were that age?"And they'll come to the conclusion they were wrong at that age and their
kids have to learn how wrong they are.
We can understand our kids better when we look at their world through
*their* understanding and respect it.
Joyce
averyschmidt
> > Each time you have a moment at a decision-making point, think ofhave
> > yourself, at her age, and what you would ideally have liked to
> > had *your* mom say or do, and then try to be that ideal mom.asking
>
> I think this is good advice. I guess thought I was doing that
> already, by getting rid of our television.
>
> So as I understand it, your point is that if I want to unschool, I
> have to listen to what my daughter is asking for, and if she is
> for tv, then there is something she needs from it?I think when we have unmet needs or unresolved issues from our own
childhoods they can totally color how we een see our own children.
Our responses and decisions are more about us, and we can't see the
child in front of us clearly enough to respond to what it is *they*
need or want.
I have one example, although it may not be the best analogy.
When I was growing up (say, from ages 5 to 12) my mother was a
complete stage mom, signing my sister and I up for class after class
and then trying desperately to convince us to stick with it and to
excel. We did ice-skating for a while, gymnastics, various
instruments, tap dancing, and tennis. Tennis was my big sport for
years and we travelled to tournaments where I won trophies. When I
got to be around 13 I stopped wanting to please my parents and
started wanting to be with my friends more rather than going to
practice after school. My mother was devastated and disappointed.
One day I tearfully told her that I felt like she didn't love me
just for who I was but for what I did and how "proud" I made her.
She finally realized, and shared with me, that when *she* was
growing up she desperately wanted to take lessons and do something
glamorous but her parents couldn't afford it and didn't care enough
to *try* to afford it. She had to watch all her friends do the
things that she wanted to do but couldn't.
So she was completely reliving her childhood the way *she* wanted it
through my sister and I. And all *I* wanted was the freedom to play
and read my books in peace. I still want that- I'm very much a
homebody, but my children love to go out all the time on various
adventures, and I try to have a balance that keeps everyone happy.
It's good to give them what you were missing from your own childhood
provided *they want the same thing*. I think that what we all
wanted as children was for someone to listen to *us* and really look
at what it was that *we* wanted. If you see your kids too much as
therapy for your own childhood it can actually backfire on you if it
prevents you from seeing them as unique individuals who are in a
totally different situation than you were.
Jana, from what I know about you (I'm also on the CC list) I think
you are a very dedicated mother and your daughter will be just fine.
Patti
Deborah Lewis
> You can heal your inner child by doing for your daughter what youI'll second this advice.
> wish people had done for you.
>
> Each time you have a moment at a decision-making point, think of
> yourself, at her age, and what you would ideally have liked to have
> had *your* mom say or do, and then try to be that ideal mom.
There is a psychology behind re-parenting and it's applied to adult
children of alcoholics even if they don't have children themselves. In
some groups you become the parent of a teddy bear, and for weeks or
months or however long the need is, you have the opportunity to parent
the teddy bear the way you should have been parented. It is healing.
My husband has had a difficult time coming to terms with his childhood.
He loves his mother and he took care of his father when he was suffering
and dying from Alzheimer's disease. He is a good son.
If he admits to himself his parents didn't do the best they could have
for him he's disrespecting them. If he tries to be a better father than
his father was he's admitting that things weren't right at his home. If
he admit's that, he can't continue to see his mother in the same light
because she didn't defend and protect him.
It's complicated and he really resented that I would defend our son if he
was upset with him. He wasn't angry at me, he was angry at his own mom,
who didn't defend him.
He is a much better parent than his father was and is beginning to heal
some. He is mindful and considerate and when he makes a mistake he can
apologize for it. It's harder maybe because his father is gone and
there is no way for them to clear the air now. His mother is nearly
eighty, and alone, he feels like any conversation with her now might be
damaging to her.
Healing takes time but every little minute you can make better choices
and be more mindful. And when you see your child's happiness, really
believe she deserves it and that you did too.
In a post last year at unschooling.com Sandra shared a letter she'd
written to a cousin who's father had just died. There was a part I
saved from that letter, it was so beautiful and I taped it inside the
cupboard door where my husband can see it every day. I hope it's ok if
I share it here.
This is an excerpt.
By Sandra Dodd
***Spend time being really sweet to your kids. Do things with them and
for them you wish your dad had done for you, and heal yourself some that
way. Make your children's happiness a monument to the life you missed
having, and that you would have had if things had been the perfect
fantasy life for you. Each little decision you make about how to treat
your children, what to say to them, what to let them do, what to say
about them to others, could be one step closer to giving them what you
didn't have.***
I hope I got that right, it was so perfect the way she wrote it and I'm
typing from memory.
Damn, she's good. <g>
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/31/03 12:17:45 AM, jana@... writes:
<< So as I understand it, your point is that if I want to unschool, I
have to listen to what my daughter is asking for, and if she is asking
for tv, then there is something she needs from it? >>
This will seem picky about words, but it's really important.
You can unschool all you want to without the blessing or approval of anyone
on this list.
You don't *have* to do anything we're recommending.
What we're (some of us) are saying is that there are principles on which
unschooling can be based which will take it all the way from being just the
absence of schoolwork to becoming a life infused with learning and trust and
respect. If that's your goal, then any area in which you assume your
children are not very smart and won't make good choices is likely to block
your path toward real trust and real respect and real awareness that learning
happens inside the child, not outside on the surface of a television screen,
or inside a book or three feet into a museum's very-cool diorama. It's all
inside the person's mind and thoughts.
Sandra
<< So as I understand it, your point is that if I want to unschool, I
have to listen to what my daughter is asking for, and if she is asking
for tv, then there is something she needs from it? >>
This will seem picky about words, but it's really important.
You can unschool all you want to without the blessing or approval of anyone
on this list.
You don't *have* to do anything we're recommending.
What we're (some of us) are saying is that there are principles on which
unschooling can be based which will take it all the way from being just the
absence of schoolwork to becoming a life infused with learning and trust and
respect. If that's your goal, then any area in which you assume your
children are not very smart and won't make good choices is likely to block
your path toward real trust and real respect and real awareness that learning
happens inside the child, not outside on the surface of a television screen,
or inside a book or three feet into a museum's very-cool diorama. It's all
inside the person's mind and thoughts.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>>Having all your notions that what you thought was the right choice has inI don't think you need to categorize your decisions as right or wrong. Guilt
>>fact been hurtful is not an easy thing to look at.>>
over past decisons perceived as "wrong" won't help you NOW. Just use this
moment, and the new information you're getting, to make the best decison for
your children's present.
All of these new ideas being presented to you fall on a continuum. It's not
just right or wrong, there's lots of places in between for good, better,
more helpful, less helpful, etc. Look at each new step on your unschooling
path as a chance to make an EVEN BETTER decision.
>>I am sitting here crying as I write this.>>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Heidi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Hope you're feeling refreshed and renewed.
:o)
Life is good.
~Mary
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
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[email protected]
In a message dated 3/31/03 3:06:18 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
And it is funny because since we have shifted towards unschooling, I
have been trying to figure out how my daughter can come to see that
not everything she learns has to come from me. She has had these
games for three days now, and she will call me over to help her do
some task that she is struggling with, and I will try, and I can't
even get past the easy part to get to the part where she needs help. >>
I understand this all too well...I feel lost and frustrated on many of the
games my boys have.
But I will sit and listen and watch while they tell me things. I will help
them call people that might be able to help them and I will get them game
guides or find places on the internet to help when they get stuck.
I think it is still our job to help them get the information they need, even
if we aren't experts ourselves on the things they are learning about.
That is the unschooling way to me.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<<
And it is funny because since we have shifted towards unschooling, I
have been trying to figure out how my daughter can come to see that
not everything she learns has to come from me. She has had these
games for three days now, and she will call me over to help her do
some task that she is struggling with, and I will try, and I can't
even get past the easy part to get to the part where she needs help. >>
I understand this all too well...I feel lost and frustrated on many of the
games my boys have.
But I will sit and listen and watch while they tell me things. I will help
them call people that might be able to help them and I will get them game
guides or find places on the internet to help when they get stuck.
I think it is still our job to help them get the information they need, even
if we aren't experts ourselves on the things they are learning about.
That is the unschooling way to me.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
zenmomma *
>>i have major communication problems with my family of origin, and upuntil a few days ago, i was blaming the television for it.>>
Wow. That's a huge discovery you've made for yourself. Some people take
years and years of therapy to dig deeper into family dynamics like you've
described.
>>i accept that i can have a good relationship with my daughter whileWell, I think you wouldn't have *as* trusting a relationship with her. There
>>including her interests like tv and computer games. and i accept that i
>>will probably not have a trusting relationship with her if i am preventing
>>her from doing something that she likes (watching tv).>>
would always be this one thing that she couldn't be completely open with you
about. I am sure there are other aspectsof your relationship that are
beautiful and trusting and onest and wonderful. This would just be a
stumbling block to getting at an ever better relationship IMHO.
>>so if i have as my goal to be an unschooler, and to be available to mydaughter to explore life with her, just wondering what do i do about
my anger?>>
Let it be, but don't let it control you or make your decisions for you. You
can't *make* it go away, but you can take away its power. I find it helpful
to step back from those emotions and try to observe them as though they are
not a part of me. Because in reality they are NOT me. They are just fleeting
emotions.
I like Sandra's advice of making the choices you wish your parents had made
with you. Of listening like you wish you had been listened to. Of initiating
the communication you wish you had had.
Life is good.
~Mary
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]
In a message dated 3/31/03 3:06:18 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I have read studies about how our minds become wired one way for t.v.
viewing, and new paths are not made while viewing other shows. It is the same
path when we are 5 that we have when we are 25. >>
But that's true for everything we're exposed to!!! New neural pathways are
formed when a child is exposed to any new idea or information. But once that
neural pathway is formed, it doesn't change. It's the same at the time it's
formed until the end of your life.
The difference is whether or not that neural pathway is still being
stimulated.
If the pathway is formed as a child, then you may not use it for years and
years but when introduced to the information that stimulates that pathway it
will become active again.
So that is just a bunch of scare tactics that don't require much thought to
see past.
There is a new device being used for blind people (still in the experimental
stages). It's a computer chip, placed in the brain to stimulate sight.
It only works on people that had sight at one time, since children that are
blind from birth do not have the proper neural pathways formed in that region
of the brain.
The blind person that had sight at one time has those pathways formed.
They weren't used for years and years, but once stimulated, they work!!!
It's amazing, but shows that neural pathways form and don't change in
adulthood. They're just dormant or useful, depending on the persons interests.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< I have read studies about how our minds become wired one way for t.v.
viewing, and new paths are not made while viewing other shows. It is the same
path when we are 5 that we have when we are 25. >>
But that's true for everything we're exposed to!!! New neural pathways are
formed when a child is exposed to any new idea or information. But once that
neural pathway is formed, it doesn't change. It's the same at the time it's
formed until the end of your life.
The difference is whether or not that neural pathway is still being
stimulated.
If the pathway is formed as a child, then you may not use it for years and
years but when introduced to the information that stimulates that pathway it
will become active again.
So that is just a bunch of scare tactics that don't require much thought to
see past.
There is a new device being used for blind people (still in the experimental
stages). It's a computer chip, placed in the brain to stimulate sight.
It only works on people that had sight at one time, since children that are
blind from birth do not have the proper neural pathways formed in that region
of the brain.
The blind person that had sight at one time has those pathways formed.
They weren't used for years and years, but once stimulated, they work!!!
It's amazing, but shows that neural pathways form and don't change in
adulthood. They're just dormant or useful, depending on the persons interests.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
zenmomma *
>>So I had decided to surprise her with a playstation or gamecube forher birthday next month. Imagine my surprise when my nephew brought
over their old super nintendo for her to have, since they don't use
it anymore!>>
Serendipity. Don't you love it?!
>>What a boost for her to realize that there are some really neat, funI noticed recently that Conor has been completing a lot of his games.
>>things she can do better than me, and that she doesn't need me to show her
>>how! (What a boost for ME!)>>
Playing them through to the end and beating the game. He has worked hard at
figuring them out (he wasn't a natural at first) and has kept at it with a
clear goal in his mind, even when he was extremely frustrated. I remember
goal setting and sticking with tough things being a goal on his IEP when he
was still in school. It was a big concern. Guess I can call them and tell
them to check that one off now. ;-)
>>I get kind of wordy in my posts here, but I just am overflowing with joyI loved parenting until around 18 months when all I ever felt like I
>>like I have not had in quite some time. I have always felt like
was doing was saying no. But by listening to the advice of the wise
women on this board, I learned to listen to what my heart knew I
should be doing all along.>>
Ahh... the power of "yes."
Life is good.
~Mary
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh
_________________________________________________________________
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Mary
From: "Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
<<on 3/31/03 3:05 AM, Mary at mummy124@... wrote:>>
<<Too many parents I believe just don't put themselves in their children's
place and try to understand.>>
<<I think parents do do that though they think they're doing what you meant.
They put *themselves* with *their* understanding in their kids' place. They
don't take on their children's view point and understanding.>>
Gee when something makes sense to me why doesn't it ever come out clear
enough when I type it??!!!! Yes that's exactly what I meant. <bg>
Mary B
<<on 3/31/03 3:05 AM, Mary at mummy124@... wrote:>>
<<Too many parents I believe just don't put themselves in their children's
place and try to understand.>>
<<I think parents do do that though they think they're doing what you meant.
They put *themselves* with *their* understanding in their kids' place. They
don't take on their children's view point and understanding.>>
Gee when something makes sense to me why doesn't it ever come out clear
enough when I type it??!!!! Yes that's exactly what I meant. <bg>
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/31/03 10:14:01 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< It's the same at the time it's
formed until the end of your life. >>
Barring trauma, injury or clinical depression. Serious depression allowed to
go to the dark hole can wreak some havoc with memories and thought processes.
But in general, connections stay!
<So that is just a bunch of scare tactics that don't require much thought to
see past.>>
Right. But if someone sets that neural pathway and LIKES the idea that TV is
evil it might be hard to undo that connectionl
Sandra
<< It's the same at the time it's
formed until the end of your life. >>
Barring trauma, injury or clinical depression. Serious depression allowed to
go to the dark hole can wreak some havoc with memories and thought processes.
But in general, connections stay!
<So that is just a bunch of scare tactics that don't require much thought to
see past.>>
Right. But if someone sets that neural pathway and LIKES the idea that TV is
evil it might be hard to undo that connectionl
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/31/03 5:08:32 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
Barring trauma, injury or clinical depression. Serious depression allowed
to
go to the dark hole can wreak some havoc with memories and thought
processes. >>
YES!! I really assumed that others would assume this...but I'm glad you
clarified.
I meant in the average, healthy, unharmed human being. :)
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<<
Barring trauma, injury or clinical depression. Serious depression allowed
to
go to the dark hole can wreak some havoc with memories and thought
processes. >>
YES!! I really assumed that others would assume this...but I'm glad you
clarified.
I meant in the average, healthy, unharmed human being. :)
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
Stephanie Elms
> just look at her and say, "You know more about this than I do. II have found the same thing...my dad's biggest worry about hsing is that Jason will
> can't help you. But I know you will figure it out when you play it
> more." What a boost for her to realize that there are some really
> neat, fun things she can do better than me, and that she doesn't need
> me to show her how! (What a boost for ME!)
not learn that sometimes you have to do things that you do not want in order to
obtain a goal (because I don't make Jason do school things like practice writing etc).
I kept trying to tell him that if the "something" is important enough to him, then
he will want to do it but my dad did not seem to agree with me. I want to tell him
to just watch Jason try to master a computer game...there are some times he gets *so*
frustrated and I can tell he is not enjoying it. But he keeps at it (and gets help from
us...usually by watching Jeff or myself play the game) and feels so great when he can
do it himself. He works at it and once he gets it he plays over and over to see how
fast he can do it, or to see other things that he might have missed.
It is great to watch. I wish that my dad could see it for what it is, but I think
that he discounts it since it is "only" a computer game. sigh.
Stephanie E.