My journey to radical unschooling

[email protected]

27 Mar 2003, at 6:26pm

OK, I'm going to post some stuff here that is totally embarassing to me now.
Much of which I no longer agree with, but I actually said a couple of years
ago. Some of it wasn't true (like about me not being a tv addict, I failed
to mention that I WAS one when I first owned a tv) but I felt the need to
defend my beliefs against the WISE words of Anne, Joyce and Sandra....others
too.
So what follows is only MY posts, over a very long conversation about tv.
You can imagine what the other ones were like, similar to the issues
discussed here recently. In these posts you will see a shift in thinking
happening, you will also see my reactions to everyone "ganging up" on my
beliefs at the time.

This is VERY lengthy, I think you should probably skip this email unless it's
really relevant to your life right now. If you're wondering about letting go
of restricting tv, this is the post for you!!
You'll at least see that some of us die hards weren't always so open minded.
:)

By renallyn6 on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:04 pm:
I think this is a very personal topic, each family has to do what works
for
them. I feel that all forms of entertainment need to be put in
perspective
and prioritized. To me tv, computer games and gameboy are mostly
entertainment value. Yes, my kids learn certain positive things from
each of
these, they are not bad in and of themselves...but I do limit the
amount of
time we do those activities. This has worked for us and we let the kids
be
part of the decision on what is a healthy amount of time, and then only
after
the chores, activities, errands etc.... are done do we allow them to
sit and
veg. This may not sound very "unschooled" but it works in our family.
The
kids don't feel cheated and I have some sanity. There are always those
days
where I just let them choose 100% but if I do that all the time
everything
seems to fall apart.

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--
By renallyn6 on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 11:28 pm:
I guess I believe along Charlotte Masons' ideas on this topic. That it
is
good and healthy to be outdoors for long periods of time....how do you
do
that if hours and hours are spent at a tv or electronics games? You do
what
works for your family, we do what works for us right? I feel that
technology
has many benefits but one negative is that we become too dependant on
it...and yes, my kids VEG when in front of a tv. That's fine at times
but if
I let them choose 100%of the time they spend all day for many days in a
row
with no sign of interest in anything else. They have told me they feel
better
and enjoy the day more when I regulate it and remind them to "come
outside
and play" or go swim or whatever. I think that's where parental
experience
comes in to play...at some age they have to choose on their own but as
they
show growth and maturity I let go more and more. You may see this as
too much
control but I do view excess amounts of electronics as negative. It is
not
negative in and of itself but when it begins to rob your life of
contact with
family members and doing the other things you love---it's too much! I'm
not
telling you how to run things in your house...just what works for us.
There
are numerous studies that show anything in excess of 2 hours of tv per
day is
detrimental....maybe that isn't true for everyone but I personally feel
like
it's a big time waster. It is a passive activity..not the games, but
the tv.
And too much of that causes my oldest to become very aggressive and not
fun
to be around. I grew up without a tv and guess what? I was not someone
that
became "bored" because I could think up my own things to do...there was
always reading, putting on skits, building tree forts, sledding or
something
else to do. I think people today are not in touch enough with the
earth, with
the animals and things that grow under their feet. It is important to
me that
my children spend a lot of time outdoors so that they have the
opportunity to
learn about and be connected to the earth. Of course you can do this
and
watch tv, play games etc... but we are on the topic of EXCESS time
spent
doing those things. Live and let live, each person has to do what works
for
them.

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--
By renallyn6 on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 04:10 pm:
I think that's great that it worked out that way...I'm not willing to
have
the tv on that much of the time at our house. Call it a hang up if you
must,
but I'm very old fashioned that way. I think along the lines of how the
Indians lived...totally in touch with the earth and how to live off of
it.
No, we usually don't have to do that now but I feel very strongly about
being
in touch with the life force that sustains us and not absorbing
ourselves in
excess amounts of technology. I agree with you Joyce about not across
the
board applying someones views, but that is the part of Charlotte Mason
I
choose to apply. Not because she was "right" but because we feel a
connection
to her words about being outdoors. And we do not have "outdoor time"
any more
than we have math time. I choose to limit tv and gameboy, I don't think
that
makes me an evil parent! Maybe you are all right and it will backfire
on
me...they will turn into tv junkies for the rest of their lives, but I
don't
think so. Growing up without one in my house did not limit my world nor
did
it turn me into a tv addict. What if we chose not to have one in our
house?
Would that make me overly controlling? I don't see these things as
necessary
to a full life. Just an extra. The only reason we own one is to view
videos
and have access to news occasionally....my kids and I did not have one
for 6
months last year and it was awesome. Didn't miss it. Maybe I'm stuck in
the
past (and no, I don't have illusions about the difficulties people
faced not
so long ago) but I like living a fairly simple life, I don't believe
that
deprives my kids of anything. You may have a point about the
studies...obviously there are a lot of factors that aren't taken in to
account. My feeling is that sometimes the kids they study have
neglectful
parents that are absent or out of it and the kids just sit in front of
the tv
most of the day, every day. I personally don't see any benefit from
sitting
in front of it every day but that's an individuals choice. My only
point
before was not that parents should limit their childrens time doing
these
things, but that if they choose to I personally do not see a problem
with
that. Unschooling means I allow my children to self-educate--and yes,
that
may mean vegging at times. But I do not hand complete control of that
area
over to them and that is a good thing for us.

By renallyn6 on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 05:42 pm:
The topic started with a question on whether a mom should limit the
time her
son spent on an electronic game and some of us responded that yes, we
would
(which evolved into the tv debate) and others said No, they would no
worry
about it. Topics often evolve into other discussions which are very
valuable
even if not totally linked with the first question, yk? I agree with
some of
you, I have a son that is a bit addictive with it ( any electronic
games, tv
you name it) and I set a very good example as far as being active. I am
a
mother of four that kickboxes, plays tennis, runs, bikes, takes yoga,
paints,
teaches art classes etc... almost every week I do all of the above!!
And yet,
if I don't limit the electronic entertainment, my son will choose it
every
time. Its funny, I brought up this discussion with him and mentioned
that I
would like his input again on this topic. He said that he wants it
limited
because he finds that his day goes better but asked me if I would be
willing
to up his gameboy time by 15 minutes. I was fine with that. My example
does
rub off but not enough to keep him from doing nothing but tv almost all
day
every day. I am all for limits imposed by parents. It sounds like a lot
of
you have not had to impose the limits and it's worked out really well.
But
their are different kids with different personalities and each of us
has to
find what works and what we are comfortable with YK? And my son is
equally
affected by the games, tv and computer. Anything passive he finds very
addictive and it makes him MEAN if he gets too much...it's very
obvious.

By renallyn6 on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 11:48 pm:
I'm not willing to go through the months and months it may take to let
him
get to that point, nor am I willing to let him turn into the mean guy
in the
house to acheive that end. I have let it go for several days in a row
with no
control and it makes the day very unhappy for all involved. Not all
kids are
like that, but he is. And I don't think scarcity is the problem as he
has had
long binges and gets to play it every day if he wants--just AFTER he
completes chores and whatever else he has planned. We set a limit on
time and
make sure the household goals for the day are met. At that point he is
free
to choose his gameboy up to the amount of time he has preset with us. I
don't
see that letting a child use tv, electronic games, etc... as much as
and as
often as they want always has the effect you are talking about. For
most kids
maybe, but everyone is different that way. He has spent entire days
playing
Nintendo (at a friends house, we will not buy one) and done nothing but
be
mean to his brother and end the day with quite an attitude problem. He
is not
usually like this. Anyway, I understand your point about withholding
things
and it becomes the "forbidden fruit" but I don't think that healthy (in
my
mind) regulation is a bad thing in every case. I could live without any
of
it, so the fact that we own gameboys and tv is a sign of my willingness
to
let them choose. And I do not prescribe a certain time as "outdoor
time" but
I do kick them out if they start acting like they have cabin
fever...LOL.
Usually they go down to the creek and forget about electricity all
together...mud is wonderful for that! And yes, I spend a lot of time
down
there with them, getting eaten by the large and hungry Florida
mosquitoes!!

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--
By renallyn6 on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 10:51 am:
I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. And as usual they make me
think. I
am personally not willing to spend money on a gaming system of any
kind, we
are very simple with anything materialistic and prefer to spend our
money on
travel. Now if my son were to save his own money and want to purchas it
himself that would be a different matter. He has saved $30.00 to buy
the new
Zelda game for his gameboy. Now on the issue of me keeping him from
it...that
is definitely not where the anger comes from. This is a child that
tends to
get grumpy if he does anything passive for too long (even reading) and
needs
to move physically a lot. Doesn't like to sit still and fidgets a lot,
just
his way. My younger son doesn't get the mean streak from gaming and tv
and
could care less about it if you mention doing something else. They are
just
different souls. He has asked me to limit his time as he feels better
when
he's not on it too much. There isn't any anger directed at me for
limiting
it, but then, he is part of the process of choosing how much time is
appropriate. And I'm a lot more relaxed about it all when the house is
in
order and we are done with that part of our responsibilities. This is
an
ongoing process though, as he is getting close to being a teen.
Obviously he
knows my hesitations over the health of excess tv and games but he's
taught
me a lot on that topic himself. He's been obsessed with this Zelda game
he
wants to buy and talks about it constantly. I realized I was getting
irritated about his obsession with it and when he picked up on that we
had a
little converstion. He pointed out that I was not trusting him enough
and I
agreed and let it go. I realized I was labeling the game (because I
know how
obsessed he'll get for a while after buying it) as noneducational. A
not so
good trap to get into. Anyway, I do listen to him and he taught me
something
that day. But I still won't be buying a Nintendo system..my dh and I
agree
that we'd rather spend our money in other ways. That will be up to my
son.
And we limit the tv time for all of us, not just my son...so maybe
that's why
he doesn't think it's a big deal. I hate households where the adults
have
different rules for the kids than they do for themselves....that's not
what
I'm trying to do here.

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--
By renallyn6 on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 05:25 pm:
I think it's ok to agree to disagree also...YK? Just because different
unschooling parents do things differently in each home does not make
them
"less" or "more" unschool. Yes, there are those that do not understand
the
concept and are calling what they do unschool but the majority are
indeed
unschooling, with differing views on tv, teeth brushing etc... I
understand
what you are saying about making your point well defined to encourage
people
and teach each other but I think sometimes you will come up against
well-informed, intelligent people that just plain disagree with you.
But I
don't feel the need to make everyone do things my way, just explaining
why I
do it the way I do. My kids actually have a lot of freedom with most of
this...I just expect certain things done before we do other
activities--helps
me be calm when the house is straightened-this might not bother another
person but it does me. And maybe I'll think exactly like all of you at
some
point but then again, maybe I will always feel this way? I'm leaving it
open.
There are no black and whites on this issue to me...just different
people,
with different methods. And the way we do it works so right now I'm not
messing with it...LOL.

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--
By renallyn6 on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 04:26 pm:
I too, decided to relax and "see" what would happen...obviously this
hasn't
been long enough for self regulation to kick in but I hate the sound of
the
D___ thing all day. My dh also gets cranky with constant noise. I have
found
that my kids are fine if I say "can we go do something else now?" they
just
need a little prompt (not a demand) They have found a couple shows they
really want to watch every day, other than that they don't mind leaving
it
alone. This discussion has prompted a lot of thought on my part about
my
views and where the negative thoughts about certain things come from. I
was
actually asking my son how to play Pokemon on the game boy and he
showed me a
bunch of tricks to it. So yes, I still regulate the tv....but I'm
questioning
my motives more often. My kids act relieved when I suggest another
activity,
like they can't unglue by themselves...maybe it just takes more time.

By renallyn6 on Tuesday, July 3, 2001 - 03:28 pm:
well I'm definitely a freak, so I guess I shouldn't expect my kids to
be any
different..lol. I too, have relaxed and had some major ups and downs
over it.
I have decided to give them more control but still insist they help out
first. Actually, I have not had to insist...they are very willing and
ready
to help out. Probably because they can hardly beleive their luck on
very
little control over tv and gameboy. I have to say though, my oldest has
spent
three full days on his gameboy since he bought the new Zelda game for
it. How
long do you let it go before you worry about their health? I do not
agree
with sitting on your tushy all day...not healthy. But I'm hearing your
words
(Sandra, Anne and others) and letting him have time to figure it out
before I
intervene too heavily. He's been relatively pleasant--he thinks some
games
put him in a rotten mood because you have to go up one level at a time
and
it's frustrating, where in the Zelda game you can go around anywhere
you want
and work out different puzzles (kind of unschoolish eh? hmmmmmm). So
we're
learning and adjusting and in the mean time I am sick of hearing the tv
on
also.

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--
By renallyn6 on Tuesday, July 3, 2001 - 07:31 pm:
Yeah, the earplugs hurt after a while. I think a large part of the
problem is
living in a tiny house (1250 sf) with six people that really value
their
private spaces. When I can't hear the tv all the time it does not bug
me so
much. And I'm really proud that he could analyze himself so well and
figure
out what made him grumpy about certain games...this thread had a lot to
do
with our conversations over it, I was really impressed with his
insights on
the issue. I've heard a couple of "damn"s coming from the bedroom but
he
doesn't emerge in this rotten, be rude to everyone mode. A pleasant
change
for sure. And he spends his own money on the games so it was a big deal
the
way he went about it. He ended up trading in some old games and hardly
spending any money to buy it so he had some money for the game guide
and
whatever else he wants. So he practiced his own budgeting
again....something
I sure wish I had learned at a young age.

I think that I have a hard time with letting them sit around because dh
and I
are very active. I work out almost every day and we're training for a
triathlon right now. But then I have to stop and remember, the kid
LOVES swim
team and goes to practice every day of the week with very few
exceptions...so
relax right? Not so easy to do. I perceive his excess time on it as a
waste
of time (not so easy to rid yourself of that one) and I'm still not
sure how
comfortable I am with this idea of self-regulation ( ok, ok, I'm not
comfortable at all...but work with me here). But I have noticed a
considerable change in their attitude when I ask them to help me with
household stuff or other things...maybe the control over this is
helping them
feel less controlled (even though I did not feel I was very controlling
over
all...just on that issue). Well, one day at a time...not making any
promises
here. Just trying to find the balance.

By ren on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 03:15 am:
I'm probably one of the only other people here that does believe it's
ok to
limit tv when necessary. I find my one son getting very lazy and not
interested in other activities for DAYS on end if I don't say anything.
If I
say "ok, enough tv for today" and suggest that we do something, he is
usually
glad for it. If he's in the middle of something he really wants to
watch I
just say "ok, when that's over do you think we could go do something?"
and he
always is fine with that. I have relaxed a lot over the whole issue but
I
think there are some kids that are more addictive and affected by it
than
others. I just disagree with total self regulation on that
topic....sorry. I
do believe it is best to be relaxed over it and I'm glad that self
regulation
works for all of you.

By ren on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 08:10 pm:
Ok, I know this is a little OT....I noticed my kids will eat oodles of
veggies and healthy stuff if I make it as readily available as the
junk. The
key to junk food is that you open a package and it's ready to eat...if
you
have healthy stuff as easy to get to, they will eat it just as much as
the
junk. At least, this is an observance I've made with my own and my
neices/nephews.

I think tv could be like that too....the more options available, the
more
they will balance it all.

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--
By ren on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 10:39 am:
The first thing I thought when I read your post Tam is "they haven't
had
enough time to deschool"....
It took mine over a year, and we were very relaxed homeschoolers prior
to
that. Around 1 1/2 years later I started seeing some "sparks" of
inventiveness I hadn't before.
That's not to say they suddenly developed a yearning for math lessons
or
writing. My 8 y.o. doesn't read. My 11 1/2 y.o. couldn't tell us 10
times 5
last night! I KNOW I taught him the 10X tables at least twice!! But you
know
what? It has to be meaningful for them or it won't stick anyway. Being
in
touch with oneself is so much more important than when they learn to
write or
do math equations.
Keep trusting them, keep trusting yourself. It really does work.
I totally understand your apprehension about not "strewing their paths"
enough. I have felt guilt over that lately too...going back to work and
a new
baby are eating up my time. But when I stand back and look at it in an
unschooling perspective, it is rosy! The boys have battled their Dad
nightly
in Pokemon (the card game) which is massive amounts of strategical
thinking,
reading, math etc... We've done relay races in the driveway, bike rides
etc... we had a birthday party for their stuffed animals yesterday
(complete
with decorated cake and candles) So NO, it doesn't look like school in
any
way. But we are living life, as a family, complete with cleaning house,
watching tv and just hanging out too.
Your girls are learning what an appraisal is. How many kids have ever
even
seen an appraiser? I bet most of them are in school when important
things
about their lives are going on. Don't take for granted the flow of
daily
living and what that teaches. It's REAL life...YOUR life. And they are
absorbing all of that.
Ren

By ren on Thursday, October 4, 2001 - 11:10 am:
Having formerly been a little controling, and now pretty much letting
them
choose I can relate to both sides of this issue.
I have found that my kids often would love to do something else, but I
have
to come up with an idea or just ask them if they'd like to go somewhere
today. I have also noticed they tend to watch more tv (or play gameboy)
after
being very social. Like down time for them.
I have noticed my kids being much less obsessive about the tv now that
I'm
more relaxed. I think Sandra, Anne and others are right about that
"forbidden
fruit" thing!
There is nothing wrong with waiting until a fave show is over and
saying
"hey, lets' go outside and play tag" or whatever.

Ren

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--
By Ren Allyn (Renstar) on Thursday, May 2, 2002 - 10:14 am:
I had no TV for a while, I also had negative associations with tv.
I got my feathers ruffled a little bit when bringing up my viewpoints
in this
very forum not too long ago.
That annoyed feeling made me think though.
It made me ponder and question if maybe the people here were right!!
COULD I be causing addictive behavior in my children with my control?
Was I hindering their world in some way?
I finally had to admit that MY views on tv were just that.....MINE.
My children have a right to choose their own life.
And they have now.
Trevor had many years of control so he is still acting fairly obsessive
with
the new cable we had installed.
Better now, with the safety and guidance of his parents than later on
his own
imo.
It's not fair for one persons prejudices to decide the entire
household.
Now that I see tv for what it is, just another tool, we have really
enjoyed
some wonderful moments as a family.
My kids have learned a TON from it.
I just can't fathom an unschooler not having a tv and shunning all the
learning opportunities just because of their own prejudices against it.
To me, unschooling means using all of the tools at our disposal, to
shun one
tool means losing out on a host of opportunities that any other tool
can't
offer.
All of those benefits to not owning one, that were listed above?
Can you believe that we have that AND a telly?
Hmmm....
The television is not evil. It's just a tool.
You can use it or not use it as you choose.....It doesn't take over
your life
unless you want it to.
Some of these responses make me wonder if people think television is
akin to
smoking and causes addiction.
Why would you think that tv owners are less likely to really listen to
their
spouses or listen to them 100%?
Do you think we all sit in front of the tv every time we have a
conversation?
I find that remark insulting, as though we tv owners can't have
effective
communication or healthy marriages!!! Sheesh.
And insulting Sandra was really lame after you asked for her opinion.
Ren

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--
By Ren Allyn (Renstar) on Thursday, May 2, 2002 - 03:31 pm:
. "I will experiment with candy and get back to you"

Then it won't work.
You can't expect an experiment to reap the benefits we are talking
about.
Only total, long term trust will bring the results being discussed in
this
forum.
You will try the "experiment", see the children gorging themselves sick
on
candy and junk most likely (because they haven't learned self control
yet)
and you will say "this does NOT work, what is wrong with those people?"
It only reaps the benefits when the trust and non-control are always
there.

"It's ok with me at this point to let my children miss the learning
that is
available through television because of what I view as the negative
aspects
of it - to me this over-rides what is positive. Some of these negative
aspects are: lack of attention and less independant creative play (I've
seen
this repeatedly as a pre-school teacher) and the desire to be
entertained "

What you're suggesting is that because there are unhealthy/negative
things on
television, you will shut down the positive aspects of it?
That's like burning down the library because there are books that are
negative.

"lack of attention and less independant creative play"
???
Really? Well, that is not true in my house.
My 8 y.o. ds loves spending time by himself. He is highly creative,
prefers
to daydream alone much of the time, putter in the woods or draw.
He has unlimited access to tv, food, books etc... and yet I see his
creativity abound.
He is very good at entertaining himself. All of my kids are. But I have
a 12
y.o. that is still obsessing with the tv because we didn't have one for
a
while.......
I suggest you are inferring things from a limited point of view.
Kids in school can't even be compared to unschoolers in that area.
Everything in their lives seems to be controlled, forced and limited.
Of course their creativity is stifled.
And independant play is not necessarily a good thing.
Some people need more person to person interaction, others are more
introverted.
I don't think that independant play is a goal for unschoolers with
preschoolers.
Independance is overrated.
Interdependance is much healthier.

"Also I tend to think that unschoolers here and homeschoolers generally
don't
watch that much. "

Unschoolers here? Well that is going to vary a lot from person to
person.
I've read of some that do watch a lot, I don't. But just because I
don't
doesn't mean I will dictate my childrens viewing any longer.
Homeschoolers in general probably villianize tv to a large degree.
That's been my experience, because many homeschoolers still carry a lot
of
school ideas into their lives.
I suggest that we've all been duped, and letting children choose is the
better way.
Ren

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

27 Mar 2003, at 6:28pm

[email protected]

27 Mar 2003, at 6:43pm

zenmomma *

27 Mar 2003, at 7:17pm

>>OK, I'm going to post some stuff here that is totally embarassing to me
>>now. Much of which I no longer agree with, but I actually said a couple of
>>years ago.>>

Ren this was a very cool post. You have no need to be embarrased by sharing
your journey to where you are now. I often try to direct newbies to some of
your older posts because you were so good at being vocal and defending your
beliefs. It makes it very easy to see the progression from where you were to
where you are now.

Life is good.
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green
earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh

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[email protected]

27 Mar 2003, at 8:48pm

Ren,

I remember your journey---but what I remembered was nothing like that! It was
SO cool so see the transformation!

Thanks for sharing---I read it all!

~Kelly

MARK and JULIE SOLICH

28 Mar 2003, at 12:08am

Ren,

Thank you so much for posting this. I have saved it and plan to read it once
a week until I have stopped panicking at the amount of TV my kids are now
indulging in.

I told them at the beginning of the week, they could decide how much they
wanted to watch and they literally danced for joy before running over and
hugging me!!

Julie

----- Original Message -----
From: <starsuncloud@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 7:28 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] My journey to radical unschooling

>
> OK, I'm going to post some stuff here that is totally embarassing to me
now.
> Much of which I no longer agree with, but I actually said a couple of
years
> ago. Some of it wasn't true (like about me not being a tv addict, I
failed
> to mention that I WAS one when I first owned a tv) but I felt the need to
> defend my beliefs against the WISE words of Anne, Joyce and
Sandra....others
> too.
> So what follows is only MY posts, over a very long conversation about tv.
> You can imagine what the other ones were like, similar to the issues
> discussed here recently. In these posts you will see a shift in thinking
> happening, you will also see my reactions to everyone "ganging up" on my
> beliefs at the time.
>
> This is VERY lengthy, I think you should probably skip this email unless
it's
> really relevant to your life right now. If you're wondering about letting
go
> of restricting tv, this is the post for you!!
> You'll at least see that some of us die hards weren't always so open
minded.
> :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> By renallyn6 on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 01:04 pm:
> I think this is a very personal topic, each family has to do what works
> for
> them. I feel that all forms of entertainment need to be put in
> perspective
> and prioritized. To me tv, computer games and gameboy are mostly
> entertainment value. Yes, my kids learn certain positive things from
> each of
> these, they are not bad in and of themselves...but I do limit the
> amount of
> time we do those activities. This has worked for us and we let the kids
> be
> part of the decision on what is a healthy amount of time, and then only
> after
> the chores, activities, errands etc.... are done do we allow them to
> sit and
> veg. This may not sound very "unschooled" but it works in our family.
> The
> kids don't feel cheated and I have some sanity. There are always those
> days
> where I just let them choose 100% but if I do that all the time
> everything
> seems to fall apart.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By renallyn6 on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 11:28 pm:
> I guess I believe along Charlotte Masons' ideas on this topic. That it
> is
> good and healthy to be outdoors for long periods of time....how do you
> do
> that if hours and hours are spent at a tv or electronics games? You do
> what
> works for your family, we do what works for us right? I feel that
> technology
> has many benefits but one negative is that we become too dependant on
> it...and yes, my kids VEG when in front of a tv. That's fine at times
> but if
> I let them choose 100%of the time they spend all day for many days in a
> row
> with no sign of interest in anything else. They have told me they feel
> better
> and enjoy the day more when I regulate it and remind them to "come
> outside
> and play" or go swim or whatever. I think that's where parental
> experience
> comes in to play...at some age they have to choose on their own but as
> they
> show growth and maturity I let go more and more. You may see this as
> too much
> control but I do view excess amounts of electronics as negative. It is
> not
> negative in and of itself but when it begins to rob your life of
> contact with
> family members and doing the other things you love---it's too much! I'm
> not
> telling you how to run things in your house...just what works for us.
> There
> are numerous studies that show anything in excess of 2 hours of tv per
> day is
> detrimental....maybe that isn't true for everyone but I personally feel
> like
> it's a big time waster. It is a passive activity..not the games, but
> the tv.
> And too much of that causes my oldest to become very aggressive and not
> fun
> to be around. I grew up without a tv and guess what? I was not someone
> that
> became "bored" because I could think up my own things to do...there was
> always reading, putting on skits, building tree forts, sledding or
> something
> else to do. I think people today are not in touch enough with the
> earth, with
> the animals and things that grow under their feet. It is important to
> me that
> my children spend a lot of time outdoors so that they have the
> opportunity to
> learn about and be connected to the earth. Of course you can do this
> and
> watch tv, play games etc... but we are on the topic of EXCESS time
> spent
> doing those things. Live and let live, each person has to do what works
> for
> them.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By renallyn6 on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 04:10 pm:
> I think that's great that it worked out that way...I'm not willing to
> have
> the tv on that much of the time at our house. Call it a hang up if you
> must,
> but I'm very old fashioned that way. I think along the lines of how the
> Indians lived...totally in touch with the earth and how to live off of
> it.
> No, we usually don't have to do that now but I feel very strongly about
> being
> in touch with the life force that sustains us and not absorbing
> ourselves in
> excess amounts of technology. I agree with you Joyce about not across
> the
> board applying someones views, but that is the part of Charlotte Mason
> I
> choose to apply. Not because she was "right" but because we feel a
> connection
> to her words about being outdoors. And we do not have "outdoor time"
> any more
> than we have math time. I choose to limit tv and gameboy, I don't think
> that
> makes me an evil parent! Maybe you are all right and it will backfire
> on
> me...they will turn into tv junkies for the rest of their lives, but I
> don't
> think so. Growing up without one in my house did not limit my world nor
> did
> it turn me into a tv addict. What if we chose not to have one in our
> house?
> Would that make me overly controlling? I don't see these things as
> necessary
> to a full life. Just an extra. The only reason we own one is to view
> videos
> and have access to news occasionally....my kids and I did not have one
> for 6
> months last year and it was awesome. Didn't miss it. Maybe I'm stuck in
> the
> past (and no, I don't have illusions about the difficulties people
> faced not
> so long ago) but I like living a fairly simple life, I don't believe
> that
> deprives my kids of anything. You may have a point about the
> studies...obviously there are a lot of factors that aren't taken in to
> account. My feeling is that sometimes the kids they study have
> neglectful
> parents that are absent or out of it and the kids just sit in front of
> the tv
> most of the day, every day. I personally don't see any benefit from
> sitting
> in front of it every day but that's an individuals choice. My only
> point
> before was not that parents should limit their childrens time doing
> these
> things, but that if they choose to I personally do not see a problem
> with
> that. Unschooling means I allow my children to self-educate--and yes,
> that
> may mean vegging at times. But I do not hand complete control of that
> area
> over to them and that is a good thing for us.
>
> By renallyn6 on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 05:42 pm:
> The topic started with a question on whether a mom should limit the
> time her
> son spent on an electronic game and some of us responded that yes, we
> would
> (which evolved into the tv debate) and others said No, they would no
> worry
> about it. Topics often evolve into other discussions which are very
> valuable
> even if not totally linked with the first question, yk? I agree with
> some of
> you, I have a son that is a bit addictive with it ( any electronic
> games, tv
> you name it) and I set a very good example as far as being active. I am
> a
> mother of four that kickboxes, plays tennis, runs, bikes, takes yoga,
> paints,
> teaches art classes etc... almost every week I do all of the above!!
> And yet,
> if I don't limit the electronic entertainment, my son will choose it
> every
> time. Its funny, I brought up this discussion with him and mentioned
> that I
> would like his input again on this topic. He said that he wants it
> limited
> because he finds that his day goes better but asked me if I would be
> willing
> to up his gameboy time by 15 minutes. I was fine with that. My example
> does
> rub off but not enough to keep him from doing nothing but tv almost all
> day
> every day. I am all for limits imposed by parents. It sounds like a lot
> of
> you have not had to impose the limits and it's worked out really well.
> But
> their are different kids with different personalities and each of us
> has to
> find what works and what we are comfortable with YK? And my son is
> equally
> affected by the games, tv and computer. Anything passive he finds very
> addictive and it makes him MEAN if he gets too much...it's very
> obvious.
>
>
> By renallyn6 on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 11:48 pm:
> I'm not willing to go through the months and months it may take to let
> him
> get to that point, nor am I willing to let him turn into the mean guy
> in the
> house to acheive that end. I have let it go for several days in a row
> with no
> control and it makes the day very unhappy for all involved. Not all
> kids are
> like that, but he is. And I don't think scarcity is the problem as he
> has had
> long binges and gets to play it every day if he wants--just AFTER he
> completes chores and whatever else he has planned. We set a limit on
> time and
> make sure the household goals for the day are met. At that point he is
> free
> to choose his gameboy up to the amount of time he has preset with us. I
> don't
> see that letting a child use tv, electronic games, etc... as much as
> and as
> often as they want always has the effect you are talking about. For
> most kids
> maybe, but everyone is different that way. He has spent entire days
> playing
> Nintendo (at a friends house, we will not buy one) and done nothing but
> be
> mean to his brother and end the day with quite an attitude problem. He
> is not
> usually like this. Anyway, I understand your point about withholding
> things
> and it becomes the "forbidden fruit" but I don't think that healthy (in
> my
> mind) regulation is a bad thing in every case. I could live without any
> of
> it, so the fact that we own gameboys and tv is a sign of my willingness
> to
> let them choose. And I do not prescribe a certain time as "outdoor
> time" but
> I do kick them out if they start acting like they have cabin
> fever...LOL.
> Usually they go down to the creek and forget about electricity all
> together...mud is wonderful for that! And yes, I spend a lot of time
> down
> there with them, getting eaten by the large and hungry Florida
> mosquitoes!!
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By renallyn6 on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 10:51 am:
> I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. And as usual they make me
> think. I
> am personally not willing to spend money on a gaming system of any
> kind, we
> are very simple with anything materialistic and prefer to spend our
> money on
> travel. Now if my son were to save his own money and want to purchas it
> himself that would be a different matter. He has saved $30.00 to buy
> the new
> Zelda game for his gameboy. Now on the issue of me keeping him from
> it...that
> is definitely not where the anger comes from. This is a child that
> tends to
> get grumpy if he does anything passive for too long (even reading) and
> needs
> to move physically a lot. Doesn't like to sit still and fidgets a lot,
> just
> his way. My younger son doesn't get the mean streak from gaming and tv
> and
> could care less about it if you mention doing something else. They are
> just
> different souls. He has asked me to limit his time as he feels better
> when
> he's not on it too much. There isn't any anger directed at me for
> limiting
> it, but then, he is part of the process of choosing how much time is
> appropriate. And I'm a lot more relaxed about it all when the house is
> in
> order and we are done with that part of our responsibilities. This is
> an
> ongoing process though, as he is getting close to being a teen.
> Obviously he
> knows my hesitations over the health of excess tv and games but he's
> taught
> me a lot on that topic himself. He's been obsessed with this Zelda game
> he
> wants to buy and talks about it constantly. I realized I was getting
> irritated about his obsession with it and when he picked up on that we
> had a
> little converstion. He pointed out that I was not trusting him enough
> and I
> agreed and let it go. I realized I was labeling the game (because I
> know how
> obsessed he'll get for a while after buying it) as noneducational. A
> not so
> good trap to get into. Anyway, I do listen to him and he taught me
> something
> that day. But I still won't be buying a Nintendo system..my dh and I
> agree
> that we'd rather spend our money in other ways. That will be up to my
> son.
> And we limit the tv time for all of us, not just my son...so maybe
> that's why
> he doesn't think it's a big deal. I hate households where the adults
> have
> different rules for the kids than they do for themselves....that's not
> what
> I'm trying to do here.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By renallyn6 on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 05:25 pm:
> I think it's ok to agree to disagree also...YK? Just because different
> unschooling parents do things differently in each home does not make
> them
> "less" or "more" unschool. Yes, there are those that do not understand
> the
> concept and are calling what they do unschool but the majority are
> indeed
> unschooling, with differing views on tv, teeth brushing etc... I
> understand
> what you are saying about making your point well defined to encourage
> people
> and teach each other but I think sometimes you will come up against
> well-informed, intelligent people that just plain disagree with you.
> But I
> don't feel the need to make everyone do things my way, just explaining
> why I
> do it the way I do. My kids actually have a lot of freedom with most of
> this...I just expect certain things done before we do other
> activities--helps
> me be calm when the house is straightened-this might not bother another
> person but it does me. And maybe I'll think exactly like all of you at
> some
> point but then again, maybe I will always feel this way? I'm leaving it
> open.
> There are no black and whites on this issue to me...just different
> people,
> with different methods. And the way we do it works so right now I'm not
> messing with it...LOL.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By renallyn6 on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 04:26 pm:
> I too, decided to relax and "see" what would happen...obviously this
> hasn't
> been long enough for self regulation to kick in but I hate the sound of
> the
> D___ thing all day. My dh also gets cranky with constant noise. I have
> found
> that my kids are fine if I say "can we go do something else now?" they
> just
> need a little prompt (not a demand) They have found a couple shows they
> really want to watch every day, other than that they don't mind leaving
> it
> alone. This discussion has prompted a lot of thought on my part about
> my
> views and where the negative thoughts about certain things come from. I
> was
> actually asking my son how to play Pokemon on the game boy and he
> showed me a
> bunch of tricks to it. So yes, I still regulate the tv....but I'm
> questioning
> my motives more often. My kids act relieved when I suggest another
> activity,
> like they can't unglue by themselves...maybe it just takes more time.
>
> By renallyn6 on Tuesday, July 3, 2001 - 03:28 pm:
> well I'm definitely a freak, so I guess I shouldn't expect my kids to
> be any
> different..lol. I too, have relaxed and had some major ups and downs
> over it.
> I have decided to give them more control but still insist they help out
> first. Actually, I have not had to insist...they are very willing and
> ready
> to help out. Probably because they can hardly beleive their luck on
> very
> little control over tv and gameboy. I have to say though, my oldest has
> spent
> three full days on his gameboy since he bought the new Zelda game for
> it. How
> long do you let it go before you worry about their health? I do not
> agree
> with sitting on your tushy all day...not healthy. But I'm hearing your
> words
> (Sandra, Anne and others) and letting him have time to figure it out
> before I
> intervene too heavily. He's been relatively pleasant--he thinks some
> games
> put him in a rotten mood because you have to go up one level at a time
> and
> it's frustrating, where in the Zelda game you can go around anywhere
> you want
> and work out different puzzles (kind of unschoolish eh? hmmmmmm). So
> we're
> learning and adjusting and in the mean time I am sick of hearing the tv
> on
> also.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By renallyn6 on Tuesday, July 3, 2001 - 07:31 pm:
> Yeah, the earplugs hurt after a while. I think a large part of the
> problem is
> living in a tiny house (1250 sf) with six people that really value
> their
> private spaces. When I can't hear the tv all the time it does not bug
> me so
> much. And I'm really proud that he could analyze himself so well and
> figure
> out what made him grumpy about certain games...this thread had a lot to
> do
> with our conversations over it, I was really impressed with his
> insights on
> the issue. I've heard a couple of "damn"s coming from the bedroom but
> he
> doesn't emerge in this rotten, be rude to everyone mode. A pleasant
> change
> for sure. And he spends his own money on the games so it was a big deal
> the
> way he went about it. He ended up trading in some old games and hardly
> spending any money to buy it so he had some money for the game guide
> and
> whatever else he wants. So he practiced his own budgeting
> again....something
> I sure wish I had learned at a young age.
>
> I think that I have a hard time with letting them sit around because dh
> and I
> are very active. I work out almost every day and we're training for a
> triathlon right now. But then I have to stop and remember, the kid
> LOVES swim
> team and goes to practice every day of the week with very few
> exceptions...so
> relax right? Not so easy to do. I perceive his excess time on it as a
> waste
> of time (not so easy to rid yourself of that one) and I'm still not
> sure how
> comfortable I am with this idea of self-regulation ( ok, ok, I'm not
> comfortable at all...but work with me here). But I have noticed a
> considerable change in their attitude when I ask them to help me with
> household stuff or other things...maybe the control over this is
> helping them
> feel less controlled (even though I did not feel I was very controlling
> over
> all...just on that issue). Well, one day at a time...not making any
> promises
> here. Just trying to find the balance.
>
>
>
>
>
> By ren on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 03:15 am:
> I'm probably one of the only other people here that does believe it's
> ok to
> limit tv when necessary. I find my one son getting very lazy and not
> interested in other activities for DAYS on end if I don't say anything.
> If I
> say "ok, enough tv for today" and suggest that we do something, he is
> usually
> glad for it. If he's in the middle of something he really wants to
> watch I
> just say "ok, when that's over do you think we could go do something?"
> and he
> always is fine with that. I have relaxed a lot over the whole issue but
> I
> think there are some kids that are more addictive and affected by it
> than
> others. I just disagree with total self regulation on that
> topic....sorry. I
> do believe it is best to be relaxed over it and I'm glad that self
> regulation
> works for all of you.
>
> By ren on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 08:10 pm:
> Ok, I know this is a little OT....I noticed my kids will eat oodles of
> veggies and healthy stuff if I make it as readily available as the
> junk. The
> key to junk food is that you open a package and it's ready to eat...if
> you
> have healthy stuff as easy to get to, they will eat it just as much as
> the
> junk. At least, this is an observance I've made with my own and my
> neices/nephews.
>
> I think tv could be like that too....the more options available, the
> more
> they will balance it all.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By ren on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 10:39 am:
> The first thing I thought when I read your post Tam is "they haven't
> had
> enough time to deschool"....
> It took mine over a year, and we were very relaxed homeschoolers prior
> to
> that. Around 1 1/2 years later I started seeing some "sparks" of
> inventiveness I hadn't before.
> That's not to say they suddenly developed a yearning for math lessons
> or
> writing. My 8 y.o. doesn't read. My 11 1/2 y.o. couldn't tell us 10
> times 5
> last night! I KNOW I taught him the 10X tables at least twice!! But you
> know
> what? It has to be meaningful for them or it won't stick anyway. Being
> in
> touch with oneself is so much more important than when they learn to
> write or
> do math equations.
> Keep trusting them, keep trusting yourself. It really does work.
> I totally understand your apprehension about not "strewing their paths"
> enough. I have felt guilt over that lately too...going back to work and
> a new
> baby are eating up my time. But when I stand back and look at it in an
> unschooling perspective, it is rosy! The boys have battled their Dad
> nightly
> in Pokemon (the card game) which is massive amounts of strategical
> thinking,
> reading, math etc... We've done relay races in the driveway, bike rides
> etc... we had a birthday party for their stuffed animals yesterday
> (complete
> with decorated cake and candles) So NO, it doesn't look like school in
> any
> way. But we are living life, as a family, complete with cleaning house,
> watching tv and just hanging out too.
> Your girls are learning what an appraisal is. How many kids have ever
> even
> seen an appraiser? I bet most of them are in school when important
> things
> about their lives are going on. Don't take for granted the flow of
> daily
> living and what that teaches. It's REAL life...YOUR life. And they are
> absorbing all of that.
> Ren
>
>
>
> By ren on Thursday, October 4, 2001 - 11:10 am:
> Having formerly been a little controling, and now pretty much letting
> them
> choose I can relate to both sides of this issue.
> I have found that my kids often would love to do something else, but I
> have
> to come up with an idea or just ask them if they'd like to go somewhere
> today. I have also noticed they tend to watch more tv (or play gameboy)
> after
> being very social. Like down time for them.
> I have noticed my kids being much less obsessive about the tv now that
> I'm
> more relaxed. I think Sandra, Anne and others are right about that
> "forbidden
> fruit" thing!
> There is nothing wrong with waiting until a fave show is over and
> saying
> "hey, lets' go outside and play tag" or whatever.
>
> Ren
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By Ren Allyn (Renstar) on Thursday, May 2, 2002 - 10:14 am:
> I had no TV for a while, I also had negative associations with tv.
> I got my feathers ruffled a little bit when bringing up my viewpoints
> in this
> very forum not too long ago.
> That annoyed feeling made me think though.
> It made me ponder and question if maybe the people here were right!!
> COULD I be causing addictive behavior in my children with my control?
> Was I hindering their world in some way?
> I finally had to admit that MY views on tv were just that.....MINE.
> My children have a right to choose their own life.
> And they have now.
> Trevor had many years of control so he is still acting fairly obsessive
> with
> the new cable we had installed.
> Better now, with the safety and guidance of his parents than later on
> his own
> imo.
> It's not fair for one persons prejudices to decide the entire
> household.
> Now that I see tv for what it is, just another tool, we have really
> enjoyed
> some wonderful moments as a family.
> My kids have learned a TON from it.
> I just can't fathom an unschooler not having a tv and shunning all the
> learning opportunities just because of their own prejudices against it.
> To me, unschooling means using all of the tools at our disposal, to
> shun one
> tool means losing out on a host of opportunities that any other tool
> can't
> offer.
> All of those benefits to not owning one, that were listed above?
> Can you believe that we have that AND a telly?
> Hmmm....
> The television is not evil. It's just a tool.
> You can use it or not use it as you choose.....It doesn't take over
> your life
> unless you want it to.
> Some of these responses make me wonder if people think television is
> akin to
> smoking and causes addiction.
> Why would you think that tv owners are less likely to really listen to
> their
> spouses or listen to them 100%?
> Do you think we all sit in front of the tv every time we have a
> conversation?
> I find that remark insulting, as though we tv owners can't have
> effective
> communication or healthy marriages!!! Sheesh.
> And insulting Sandra was really lame after you asked for her opinion.
> Ren
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> --
> By Ren Allyn (Renstar) on Thursday, May 2, 2002 - 03:31 pm:
> . "I will experiment with candy and get back to you"
>
> Then it won't work.
> You can't expect an experiment to reap the benefits we are talking
> about.
> Only total, long term trust will bring the results being discussed in
> this
> forum.
> You will try the "experiment", see the children gorging themselves sick
> on
> candy and junk most likely (because they haven't learned self control
> yet)
> and you will say "this does NOT work, what is wrong with those people?"
> It only reaps the benefits when the trust and non-control are always
> there.
>
> "It's ok with me at this point to let my children miss the learning
> that is
> available through television because of what I view as the negative
> aspects
> of it - to me this over-rides what is positive. Some of these negative
> aspects are: lack of attention and less independant creative play (I've
> seen
> this repeatedly as a pre-school teacher) and the desire to be
> entertained "
>
> What you're suggesting is that because there are unhealthy/negative
> things on
> television, you will shut down the positive aspects of it?
> That's like burning down the library because there are books that are
> negative.
>
> "lack of attention and less independant creative play"
> ???
> Really? Well, that is not true in my house.
> My 8 y.o. ds loves spending time by himself. He is highly creative,
> prefers
> to daydream alone much of the time, putter in the woods or draw.
> He has unlimited access to tv, food, books etc... and yet I see his
> creativity abound.
> He is very good at entertaining himself. All of my kids are. But I have
> a 12
> y.o. that is still obsessing with the tv because we didn't have one for
> a
> while.......
> I suggest you are inferring things from a limited point of view.
> Kids in school can't even be compared to unschoolers in that area.
> Everything in their lives seems to be controlled, forced and limited.
> Of course their creativity is stifled.
> And independant play is not necessarily a good thing.
> Some people need more person to person interaction, others are more
> introverted.
> I don't think that independant play is a goal for unschoolers with
> preschoolers.
> Independance is overrated.
> Interdependance is much healthier.
>
>
> "Also I tend to think that unschoolers here and homeschoolers generally
> don't
> watch that much. "
>
> Unschoolers here? Well that is going to vary a lot from person to
> person.
> I've read of some that do watch a lot, I don't. But just because I
> don't
> doesn't mean I will dictate my childrens viewing any longer.
> Homeschoolers in general probably villianize tv to a large degree.
> That's been my experience, because many homeschoolers still carry a lot
> of
> school ideas into their lives.
> I suggest that we've all been duped, and letting children choose is the
> better way.
> Ren
>
>
>
>
> Ren
> "The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers
are
> growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
> magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
> me....It's in every one of us."
>
> ----Frances Hodgson Burnett
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
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>
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>
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>
>

gruvystarchild

28 Mar 2003, at 10:38am

"I was wondering what ever happened
to the adverse behavior you were sure your oldest son had and would
have to
unrestricted tv? Was it something you just thought he was doing
because of your
feelings about it all or was it real and he just got over it or
what??? Just
wondering because you seemed so convincing of how he behaved and then
it just
seemed to be alright. Was it hard to transition for him or you?"'

Well......without all the in between posts it's hard to see the
transisition, but I was also less vocal during the transistion so it
needs some added information anyway.
I was quite sure I was right, so posting that I MIGHT be wrong didn't
happen. I just slowly quit saying "No" and quit trying to make my
kids feel bad for watching a lot.
I never said "ok, all restrictions off" or anything. I actually think
that can be a bad idea.
It depends.
Anyway, yes, the transition was a little hard. I dont' like
electronic noise all the time, I find it invasive and draining. Like
many here, I prefer being outdoors a lot or at least have soothing
music playing part of the day, NOT tv and video games all the time.
So the transition was harder on me than them of course!
Most of the behavior "problems" were reactions to control.
I didn't realize it at the time, but it was true, because most all of
the behavior disappeared not long after lifting the restrictions.

Trevor can still cop quite an attitude over video games sometimes,
get really crabby and not pleasant.
But Mary Gold brought up something last year that helped me see it
differently.
She mentioned that he may be getting the anger due to trying to solve
a puzzle he can't solve and that is frustrating him.
The video games have a lot of puzzles to solve sometimes...heck, I
get frustrated very quickly on them, so it made sense. I started
paying attention. I asked him about it and he said that only certain
games caused the frustration. And sure enough, it was the ones like
Zelda in which you have to solve a lot of puzzles to get where you
need to go.
So the frustration was causing the grumpy behavior and once we both
recognized it as that, he was more able to keep things in perspective.
I will suggest a break if I see him getting very intense.
Sometimes he'll just say that he's really close to solving the puzzle
and he needs to stay on it. OK.
So he proceeds to solve it and he's alright after that, he feels
really good that he was able to finish it.
Sometimes he gets so absorbed that he can't seem to get away from the
game, in spite of everyone else happily playing. But it just doesn't
stress me out the way it used to.

I had a lot of burps and fits along the way...heck, I still get
frustrated once in a while and ask them to PLEASE turn that "thing"
off!!! They know it overwhelms me after a while, but they are just
starting to be a little more sensitive about it.
AFter all, I wasn't very sensitive to their needs/desires so it takes
a while to undo all of that.

A warning to Julie and others that are trying to "deprogram"....
Don't expect anything quickly.
My kids are still VERY absorbed in their video games for long
stretches of time (maybe they always will be) but tv is no longer
that big of a deal.
They have certain shows they watch and they no longer sit and just
watch anything that's on just to be watching....though we went
through that too.
Don't just sit back and wait for them to self regulate. Watch WITH
them, offer other options, be part of their world. That made the
biggest difference in our lives.
For a while I just kept holding my breath, waiting for the novelty to
wear off. It did to some degree, but they were still watching SO much.
Finally, the advice here about getting into their interests clicked
with me.
Their interests included a LOT of tv and video games. I was not
entering into that particular interest!! How could I have been so
blind?
I started watching a lot of the Japanese anime with them, it was
actually really cool! I started looking stuff up on the internet and
forwarding it to Trevor.
Now we have some common ground. It changed everything. I am no longer
the "enemy" trying to keep them from what they want. I just never had
been able to bridge my unschooling philosophies over the certain
areas of our lives. But once I did (ok, I still say some stupid
things) it changed our entire family dynamics, changed our
interactions and the trust level.

So when people say it just won't work for their families, of course I
am very stubborn. I KNOW it will work if the parents want it to.
I KNOW it will lead to better relationships, more learning
opportunities and such.
If I know these things, it is my responsibility to share them with
you.
Just like other people here shared with me.

A home where the parents are controlling ANY information or interests
is not as happy, bubbly and joyful as a home where that isn't
happening. I KNOW this.
And the learning isn't happening as fully, nor is the world being
explored as completely.

My kids have learned SO much they would not have if I'd stubbornly
clung to my old views. Let's see, Alexander the Great was the latest
history we learned about, from an ANIMATED cartoon!!! Thank you very
much. :)
My 9.5 y.o. non-reading ds loves the game Phantasy Star Online (which
we just bought a couple days ago). I was amazed by how much reading
you have to do to play the game, I was baffled at how he was getting
through it.
So I asked him how he could play without reading. It turns out he has
memorized literally HUNDREDS of little, teeny, tiny symbols!!
Can you imagine the brain power that takes? I thought it would be
easierr to memorize 26 symbols and their sounds, but apparently he
prefers memorizing the game symbols.
He's only asked me what something said three times.
And he's starting to look at the words and sound them out.

Shutting off an avenue of exploration, shutting off an interest of my
childs is unacceptable to me these days.
And I'm SO glad because they've taught me a lot.

[email protected]

28 Mar 2003, at 12:08pm

In a message dated 3/28/03 9:11:15 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:

<< I was baffled at how he was getting

through it.

So I asked him how he could play without reading. It turns out he has

memorized literally HUNDREDS of little, teeny, tiny symbols!!

Can you imagine the brain power that takes? I thought it would be

easierr to memorize 26 symbols and their sounds, but apparently he

prefers memorizing the game symbols.

He's only asked me what something said three times. >>

When Marty was little, he used to play Treasure Mountain really well and
quickly and intently. I had made him a 3x5 card with words and then a
picture of what the item or number looked like in the game, but he didn't
like to use it. Instead of working math problems to get clues (word clues)
to figure out what number, shape and item he would advance by choosing, he
totally skipped the elves with their math and clues, and he just clicked.

You might think that was inefficient, but it wasn't. He was just playing a
higher level math game than the rest of us (who followed direction) were
playing.

We would run around catching elves in nets we had to buy by solving puzzles
and earning coins, then get a clue like "two" and another like "square" and
then "trees."

Meanwhile Marty has dashed on by the elves, clicked on three round pinecones,
gotten the indication that there is NO match, gone to two round trees: NEAR
match... etc.

He played it like Master Mind, making a guess, getting feedback, and making
another guess. In his head, he was eliminating wrong guesses.

That's way better pattern-thinking than telling an elf what 7+5 is.
He was faster at the game than we were too.

Nowhere on the box did it say the game taught deductive reasoning.
Good think Marty couldn't read the box, then!

Sandra

Andrea

28 Mar 2003, at 3:12pm

At 12:08 PM 3/28/03 -0500, Sandra wrote:

>When Marty was little, he used to play Treasure Mountain really well and
>quickly and intently. I had made him a 3x5 card with words and then a
>picture of what the item or number looked like in the game, but he didn't
>like to use it. Instead of working math problems to get clues (word clues)
>to figure out what number, shape and item he would advance by choosing, he
>totally skipped the elves with their math and clues, and he just clicked.

This is what Simon (age 3.5) does with a similar game (Leap Ahead 2nd
Grade, but it also has another name). His brothers want him to capture the
orange fish and answer the questions, or at least let them answer the
questions for him, but he just clicks until he finds what he needs and
deducts the rest from that. He knows it is easy to get more air and light.

Donna Andrea in Nova Scotia

[email protected]

28 Mar 2003, at 4:13pm

In a message dated 3/28/03 1:47:47 PM, andrea@... writes:

<< His brothers want him to capture the
orange fish and answer the questions, or at least let them answer the
questions for him, but he just clicks until he finds what he needs and
deducts the rest from that. He knows it is easy to get more air and light.

>>

Oh! Marty was that way!
I would pass by and say in a mom voice, "Marty, do you want me to play a
while to earn you some nets?"

"I don't need nets, mom."

He played it totally without money, and said that if you play broke, the
elves leave money on the ground for you. People with any money at all never
find money on the ground.

Another thing I didn't know, since I had "played right."

Sandra