still need help
Mary
Well Sierra has been okay since the episode I wrote about. Tonight was a different story. It was shower time in the house and Joseph was off to shower in ours and Alyssa and Sierra were to shower in theirs. Joe had the shower going and Alyssa was naked and ready to get in. Sierra was acting silly and running around and not getting in the bathroom. What started out as being goofy ended up old for Joe as Sierra just wouldn't get in the running shower and of course Alyssa waits for Sierra first. Joe had asked her a few times and she totally disregarded him and kept running around. Of course then Alyssa started. After about 5 minutes, Joe yelled at her and she started to cry and all hell broke loose. Joe had apologized to Sierra and explained why he was upset. When I tried to calm her down, she wouldn't. I asked if she would please shower now as Alyssa was naked and the water was running. She refused and when I tried to talk to her and take her by the hand, she screamed like crazy. Naturally Alyssa started to scream and cry and wouldn't shower either.
I ended up leaving Sierra in her room and taking Alyssa in the shower with me.
Her behavior is really disrupting the rest of the house. It's upsetting to Joseph and Alyssa is starting to give us a hard time also when Sierra does.
The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what she's doing, the more disruptive she's becoming.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I ended up leaving Sierra in her room and taking Alyssa in the shower with me.
Her behavior is really disrupting the rest of the house. It's upsetting to Joseph and Alyssa is starting to give us a hard time also when Sierra does.
The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what she's doing, the more disruptive she's becoming.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachel Ann
Um,
I know it is me and not you, but I'm missing something. First, in our house
we only have one shower, and low water pressure so we can't run more than
one thing at a time. But, if Joe is in his shower, what did he care what
Alyssa and Sierra were doing? Did they have to shower at the same time? And
why not just turn off Alyssa and Sierra's shower till they were ready to get
in? Or why not just get in with Alyssa in the first place and then let
Sierra decide? Was there some sort of other time factor? That is where we
run into difficutlies; or when I don't want to spend an 1 1/2 waiting for
two kids to get out of the bath (Esther is old enough to be in the bath on
her own, but Tehila isn't old enough to leave for alone. I'm not comfortable
in leaving Esther and Tehila alone for a long period of time, though I will
for quick runs to get something etc.).
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Monday, March 17, 2003 22:20:32
To: Unschooling list
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] still need help
Well Sierra has been okay since the episode I wrote about. Tonight was a
different story. It was shower time in the house and Joseph was off to
shower in ours and Alyssa and Sierra were to shower in theirs. Joe had the
shower going and Alyssa was naked and ready to get in. Sierra was acting
silly and running around and not getting in the bathroom. What started out
as being goofy ended up old for Joe as Sierra just wouldn't get in the
running shower and of course Alyssa waits for Sierra first. Joe had asked
her a few times and she totally disregarded him and kept running around. Of
course then Alyssa started. After about 5 minutes, Joe yelled at her and she
started to cry and all hell broke loose. Joe had apologized to Sierra and
explained why he was upset. When I tried to calm her down, she wouldn't. I
asked if she would please shower now as Alyssa was naked and the water was
running. She refused and when I tried to talk to her and take her by the
hand, she screamed like crazy.
Naturally Alyssa started to scream and cry and wouldn't shower either.
I ended up leaving Sierra in her room and taking Alyssa in the shower with
me.
Her behavior is really disrupting the rest of the house. It's upsetting to
Joseph and Alyssa is starting to give us a hard time also when Sierra does.
The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what she's
doing, the more disruptive she's becoming.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know it is me and not you, but I'm missing something. First, in our house
we only have one shower, and low water pressure so we can't run more than
one thing at a time. But, if Joe is in his shower, what did he care what
Alyssa and Sierra were doing? Did they have to shower at the same time? And
why not just turn off Alyssa and Sierra's shower till they were ready to get
in? Or why not just get in with Alyssa in the first place and then let
Sierra decide? Was there some sort of other time factor? That is where we
run into difficutlies; or when I don't want to spend an 1 1/2 waiting for
two kids to get out of the bath (Esther is old enough to be in the bath on
her own, but Tehila isn't old enough to leave for alone. I'm not comfortable
in leaving Esther and Tehila alone for a long period of time, though I will
for quick runs to get something etc.).
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Monday, March 17, 2003 22:20:32
To: Unschooling list
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] still need help
Well Sierra has been okay since the episode I wrote about. Tonight was a
different story. It was shower time in the house and Joseph was off to
shower in ours and Alyssa and Sierra were to shower in theirs. Joe had the
shower going and Alyssa was naked and ready to get in. Sierra was acting
silly and running around and not getting in the bathroom. What started out
as being goofy ended up old for Joe as Sierra just wouldn't get in the
running shower and of course Alyssa waits for Sierra first. Joe had asked
her a few times and she totally disregarded him and kept running around. Of
course then Alyssa started. After about 5 minutes, Joe yelled at her and she
started to cry and all hell broke loose. Joe had apologized to Sierra and
explained why he was upset. When I tried to calm her down, she wouldn't. I
asked if she would please shower now as Alyssa was naked and the water was
running. She refused and when I tried to talk to her and take her by the
hand, she screamed like crazy.
Naturally Alyssa started to scream and cry and wouldn't shower either.
I ended up leaving Sierra in her room and taking Alyssa in the shower with
me.
Her behavior is really disrupting the rest of the house. It's upsetting to
Joseph and Alyssa is starting to give us a hard time also when Sierra does.
The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what she's
doing, the more disruptive she's becoming.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: Rachel Ann
<<I know it is me and not you, but I'm missing something. First, in our house
we only have one shower, and low water pressure so we can't run more than
one thing at a time. But, if Joe is in his shower, what did he care what
Alyssa and Sierra were doing? Did they have to shower at the same time? And
why not just turn off Alyssa and Sierra's shower till they were ready to get
in? Or why not just get in with Alyssa in the first place and then let
Sierra decide? Was there some sort of other time factor?>>
The way it's been done for ages now is that all 3 kids shower at the same time. The kids have decided to do it that way and it's been working. This way they all get in and out pretty much at the same time and no one feels like they are missing anything. Sometimes they go at different times, it's up to them. Joseph (not Joe my husband but the son) was getting in and Sierra and Alyssa decided to shower together in the other bathroom. Sometimes Sierra asks to go by herself and sometimes Alyssa will want to shower with me or who wants to take a bath, etc. This was already decided on and everyone was okay with it. That's why it was so upsetting. No one was being asked to do anything they didn't want to. And the shower is never started unless the kids say they are ready. They were ready. Then Sierra decided to be silly. Still okay. They're kids. But it just went past that. Joe did get a little frustrated and raised his voice and then knew he shouldn't have and apologized. By then it was way too late.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<I know it is me and not you, but I'm missing something. First, in our house
we only have one shower, and low water pressure so we can't run more than
one thing at a time. But, if Joe is in his shower, what did he care what
Alyssa and Sierra were doing? Did they have to shower at the same time? And
why not just turn off Alyssa and Sierra's shower till they were ready to get
in? Or why not just get in with Alyssa in the first place and then let
Sierra decide? Was there some sort of other time factor?>>
The way it's been done for ages now is that all 3 kids shower at the same time. The kids have decided to do it that way and it's been working. This way they all get in and out pretty much at the same time and no one feels like they are missing anything. Sometimes they go at different times, it's up to them. Joseph (not Joe my husband but the son) was getting in and Sierra and Alyssa decided to shower together in the other bathroom. Sometimes Sierra asks to go by herself and sometimes Alyssa will want to shower with me or who wants to take a bath, etc. This was already decided on and everyone was okay with it. That's why it was so upsetting. No one was being asked to do anything they didn't want to. And the shower is never started unless the kids say they are ready. They were ready. Then Sierra decided to be silly. Still okay. They're kids. But it just went past that. Joe did get a little frustrated and raised his voice and then knew he shouldn't have and apologized. By then it was way too late.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>house
> I know it is me and not you, but I'm missing something. First, in our
> we only have one shower, and low water pressure so we can't run more thanI think there's a kid Joseph and a dad Joe, but I'm not sure. <g>
> one thing at a time. But, if Joe is in his shower, what did he care what
> Alyssa and Sierra were doing? Did they have to shower at the same time?
Tia
MARK and JULIE SOLICH
Mary,
I just finished reading Sandra's Leaning on a Truck (again) and maybe
instead of trying to get Sierra to talk when she is upset about how she is
feeling you could give her some space to calm down then see if she wants to
do something with you, just the two of you, a puzzle or something. Maybe
with something else to focus on she will be able to start talking. Even if
she doesn't, the time together can't hurt!
Hope this helps.
Julie
I just finished reading Sandra's Leaning on a Truck (again) and maybe
instead of trying to get Sierra to talk when she is upset about how she is
feeling you could give her some space to calm down then see if she wants to
do something with you, just the two of you, a puzzle or something. Maybe
with something else to focus on she will be able to start talking. Even if
she doesn't, the time together can't hurt!
Hope this helps.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary" <mummy124@...>
To: "Unschooling list" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:18 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] still need help
> Well Sierra has been okay since the episode I wrote about. Tonight was a
different story. It was shower time in the house and Joseph was off to
shower in ours and Alyssa and Sierra were to shower in theirs. Joe had the
shower going and Alyssa was naked and ready to get in. Sierra was acting
silly and running around and not getting in the bathroom. What started out
as being goofy ended up old for Joe as Sierra just wouldn't get in the
running shower and of course Alyssa waits for Sierra first. Joe had asked
her a few times and she totally disregarded him and kept running around. Of
course then Alyssa started. After about 5 minutes, Joe yelled at her and she
started to cry and all hell broke loose. Joe had apologized to Sierra and
explained why he was upset. When I tried to calm her down, she wouldn't. I
asked if she would please shower now as Alyssa was naked and the water was
running. She refused and when I tried to talk to her and take her by the
hand, she screamed like crazy. Natu
> rally Alyssa started to
> scream and cry and wouldn't shower either.
>
> I ended up leaving Sierra in her room and taking Alyssa in the shower with
me.
>
> Her behavior is really disrupting the rest of the house. It's upsetting to
Joseph and Alyssa is starting to give us a hard time also when Sierra does.
>
> The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what
she's doing, the more disruptive she's becoming.
>
> Mary B
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/17/03 9:41:25 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< The way it's been done for ages now is that all 3 kids shower at the
same time. The kids have decided to do it that way and it's been working. >>
Apparently it's not working now.
Flexibility seems to be a better policy than convincing kids to do what they
did before just because they did it before.
-=-This was already decided on and everyone was okay with it. That's why it
was so upsetting. No one was being asked to do anything they didn't want
to.-=-
Don't you ever say "Yes" to wanting to do something and realize that you said
yes without really thinking, just kind of automatically?
Can't you just sprinkle water from a wet hand on her and say "Magical Shower"
and call it done?
I think it was the parental expectation that was the problem. My best
recommendation is to loosen up and let her be crazed for a while. She won't
be this way when she's fourteen. Sometime it will quit, but the more you
react to it strongly, the harder it might be for her to give it up on her
own. If she feels like she'll be doing you a big favor by changing, she
might rather not do that. If you leave it as either way's okay, she'll
choose for herself. And freaking has no benefit in and of itself.
-=-The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what
she's doing, the more disruptive she's becoming. -=-
Then don't talk to her about it or ask why.
Maybe you could play with her, sometime when the other kids aren't around and
say "You be me, and I'll be you." Then after playing really nicely for a
while, you could act like she does sometimes, and say, in her voice, "Guess
why I'm being this way, Mom" (or whatever she calls you) and then she, as
you, can say something. It might be profound and it might not be. Maybe
she'll get angry that you mimic her. If so, let it go. Don't even talk
about it. Later when she says that made her mad or she doesn't do that, you
could casually say it seems like it sometimes to you. And leave it again.
She'll need to think about it in little bits over time, probably, since she
likely doesn't understand it herself one bit yet.
Sandra
<< The way it's been done for ages now is that all 3 kids shower at the
same time. The kids have decided to do it that way and it's been working. >>
Apparently it's not working now.
Flexibility seems to be a better policy than convincing kids to do what they
did before just because they did it before.
-=-This was already decided on and everyone was okay with it. That's why it
was so upsetting. No one was being asked to do anything they didn't want
to.-=-
Don't you ever say "Yes" to wanting to do something and realize that you said
yes without really thinking, just kind of automatically?
Can't you just sprinkle water from a wet hand on her and say "Magical Shower"
and call it done?
I think it was the parental expectation that was the problem. My best
recommendation is to loosen up and let her be crazed for a while. She won't
be this way when she's fourteen. Sometime it will quit, but the more you
react to it strongly, the harder it might be for her to give it up on her
own. If she feels like she'll be doing you a big favor by changing, she
might rather not do that. If you leave it as either way's okay, she'll
choose for herself. And freaking has no benefit in and of itself.
-=-The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what
she's doing, the more disruptive she's becoming. -=-
Then don't talk to her about it or ask why.
Maybe you could play with her, sometime when the other kids aren't around and
say "You be me, and I'll be you." Then after playing really nicely for a
while, you could act like she does sometimes, and say, in her voice, "Guess
why I'm being this way, Mom" (or whatever she calls you) and then she, as
you, can say something. It might be profound and it might not be. Maybe
she'll get angry that you mimic her. If so, let it go. Don't even talk
about it. Later when she says that made her mad or she doesn't do that, you
could casually say it seems like it sometimes to you. And leave it again.
She'll need to think about it in little bits over time, probably, since she
likely doesn't understand it herself one bit yet.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/17/03 10:21:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
have jumped in with you and Alyssa and maybe not. But the frustration would
have been avoided, maybe, if you had said it was OK not to take a shower. I
know yelling is a knee jerk reaction to all the frustration built up but I
try to tell myself is that how I would treat my DH. No probably not. If he
didn't want to shower I certainly wouldn't try to make him. I hate to be
yelled at too.
Just my 2 cents
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> I ended up leaving Sierra in her room and taking Alyssa in the shower withThis would have been a great solution in the beginning. Maybe Sierra would
> me.
>
>
have jumped in with you and Alyssa and maybe not. But the frustration would
have been avoided, maybe, if you had said it was OK not to take a shower. I
know yelling is a knee jerk reaction to all the frustration built up but I
try to tell myself is that how I would treat my DH. No probably not. If he
didn't want to shower I certainly wouldn't try to make him. I hate to be
yelled at too.
Just my 2 cents
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/17/03 10:21:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
house.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> Her behavior is really disrupting the rest of the house. It's upsetting toMaybe making her take a shower isn't worth the disruption to the rest of the
> Joseph and Alyssa is starting to give us a hard time also when Sierra does.
>
>
house.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/17/03 11:41:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
was saying come on get in the shower..over and over I might have gone in and
said come on Alyssa, I'll get in the shower with you. End of problem. If
Sierra came in good if not OK too. If when I got out Sierra then wanted to
shower I would let her or I would take one with her too.
Just my 2 cents.
sometimes it is hard to anticipate
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> Then Sierra decided to be silly. Still okay. They're kids. But it just wentWhat do you mean by "past that?" I try to think ahead. If I saw that Joe
> past that.
was saying come on get in the shower..over and over I might have gone in and
said come on Alyssa, I'll get in the shower with you. End of problem. If
Sierra came in good if not OK too. If when I got out Sierra then wanted to
shower I would let her or I would take one with her too.
Just my 2 cents.
sometimes it is hard to anticipate
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
Wasn't there a thread on bathing a while back? Could not showering have
been a choice?
My younger child often says no to things. If I just accept her no, she
often changes her mind later. If I try to force the issue, she digs her
heels in.
Mary Ellen
----- snip----- What started out as being goofy ended up old for Joe as
Sierra just wouldn't get in the running shower and of course Alyssa waits
for Sierra first. Joe had asked her a few times and she totally disregarded
him and kept running around. Of course then Alyssa started. After about 5
minutes, Joe yelled at her and she started to cry and all hell broke loose.
been a choice?
My younger child often says no to things. If I just accept her no, she
often changes her mind later. If I try to force the issue, she digs her
heels in.
Mary Ellen
----- snip----- What started out as being goofy ended up old for Joe as
Sierra just wouldn't get in the running shower and of course Alyssa waits
for Sierra first. Joe had asked her a few times and she totally disregarded
him and kept running around. Of course then Alyssa started. After about 5
minutes, Joe yelled at her and she started to cry and all hell broke loose.
Mary
From: genant2@...
<<Maybe making her take a shower isn't worth the disruption to the rest of the
house.>>
You're right and it wasn't and she ended up not taking one. Thing is I didn't know what was going on until it was too late. Joe has been in pain for a week now and not working like he needs to and just out of sorts. Plus he really doesn't always remember to do the right thing with the kids. He's trying, but sometimes slips. I have been feeling awful and from in the living room where I was, I couldn't hear what was going on.
The shower wasn't a big deal. But it was an example of what sends Sierra into a tizzy. Simple little things like that. Things that are just fine one minute and a whole other story the next. Just that quick.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Maybe making her take a shower isn't worth the disruption to the rest of the
house.>>
You're right and it wasn't and she ended up not taking one. Thing is I didn't know what was going on until it was too late. Joe has been in pain for a week now and not working like he needs to and just out of sorts. Plus he really doesn't always remember to do the right thing with the kids. He's trying, but sometimes slips. I have been feeling awful and from in the living room where I was, I couldn't hear what was going on.
The shower wasn't a big deal. But it was an example of what sends Sierra into a tizzy. Simple little things like that. Things that are just fine one minute and a whole other story the next. Just that quick.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christina Morrissey
At 10:18 PM 3/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Hey Mary....I read all the responses to your post....It must be sooo
confusing dealing with this. One moment everything is going along just
fine and then EXPLOSION! Suggestion: perhaps you might start keeping a
chart of her moods on a daily basis indicating the timing of certain events
such as tantrums and crying spells to see if you start seeing any patterns
(and for perhaps any future prof. help....)
In the case of the shower thing...the only additional thing I might have
tried was to have taken her away from the action WITHOUT any further words
and hugged her until she stopped screaming. Let hubby deal with the other
kids as you see to Sierra and have him calm the others down. Then I would
have tried to see what her take on the situation was re to shower or not.
This is what it sounded to me: at the point when your husband tried to get
her to stop and get into the shower, she was soooo wound up in her
EXPERIENCE, that she COULDN'T stop on her own, and the transition was too
abrupt for her. So she started crying which wound her up even more. When
you entered the picture and began talking to her that added a whole new
demand on her system. Then you touched her (grabbed her hand) adding a
new sensory element and at this point she is so overwhelmed, she
SCREAMED. Her system can't handle anything more. You see it as a
tantrum. She feels it as uncontrollable sensory overload. She is unable
to stop her emotions, senses, whatever, she's scared, needs help, and
doesn't know how to get it. Often removal from the scene, the noise; quiet
and then your hug which brings her back to herself and reassures her that
she has control once again, will allow her to once again be able to think!
I don't profess to be an expert. I just have a kid who went through what
seemed like similar experiences. Research and diagnosis indicated this
type of experience behind the scenes. If none of the other posts seem
likely, try this one on for size and see if it fits in future dealings with
Sierra! Knowing what's going on for me, always gave me so much more
patience for all the unpleasant stuff.....
Christina (WA)
Hey Mary....I read all the responses to your post....It must be sooo
confusing dealing with this. One moment everything is going along just
fine and then EXPLOSION! Suggestion: perhaps you might start keeping a
chart of her moods on a daily basis indicating the timing of certain events
such as tantrums and crying spells to see if you start seeing any patterns
(and for perhaps any future prof. help....)
In the case of the shower thing...the only additional thing I might have
tried was to have taken her away from the action WITHOUT any further words
and hugged her until she stopped screaming. Let hubby deal with the other
kids as you see to Sierra and have him calm the others down. Then I would
have tried to see what her take on the situation was re to shower or not.
This is what it sounded to me: at the point when your husband tried to get
her to stop and get into the shower, she was soooo wound up in her
EXPERIENCE, that she COULDN'T stop on her own, and the transition was too
abrupt for her. So she started crying which wound her up even more. When
you entered the picture and began talking to her that added a whole new
demand on her system. Then you touched her (grabbed her hand) adding a
new sensory element and at this point she is so overwhelmed, she
SCREAMED. Her system can't handle anything more. You see it as a
tantrum. She feels it as uncontrollable sensory overload. She is unable
to stop her emotions, senses, whatever, she's scared, needs help, and
doesn't know how to get it. Often removal from the scene, the noise; quiet
and then your hug which brings her back to herself and reassures her that
she has control once again, will allow her to once again be able to think!
I don't profess to be an expert. I just have a kid who went through what
seemed like similar experiences. Research and diagnosis indicated this
type of experience behind the scenes. If none of the other posts seem
likely, try this one on for size and see if it fits in future dealings with
Sierra! Knowing what's going on for me, always gave me so much more
patience for all the unpleasant stuff.....
Christina (WA)
><< When I tried to calm her down, she wouldn't. I asked if she would
>please shower now as Alyssa was naked and the water was running. She
>refused and when I tried to talk to her and take her by the hand, she
>screamed like crazy. >>
>
>
>The harder I try to talk to Sierra and understand why she's doing what
>she's doing, the more disruptive she's becoming.
>
>Mary B
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
>If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
>the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
>owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
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In a message dated 3/18/2003 12:11:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
Order Sandra's tape, Peaceful Parenting, to listen to in the car. It's
amazing what that little tape can do for you!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
>Mary.
>
>
> You're right and it wasn't and she ended up not taking one. Thing is I
> didn't know what was going on until it was too late. Joe has been in pain
> for a week now and not working like he needs to and just out of sorts. Plus
> he really doesn't always remember to do the right thing with the kids. He's
> trying, but sometimes slips. I have been feeling awful and from in the
> living room where I was, I couldn't hear what was going on.
>
> The shower wasn't a big deal. But it was an example of what sends Sierra
> into a tizzy. Simple little things like that. Things that are just fine one
> minute and a whole other story the next. Just that quick.
>
> Mary B
>
>
Order Sandra's tape, Peaceful Parenting, to listen to in the car. It's
amazing what that little tape can do for you!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/18/03 10:11:44 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< The shower wasn't a big deal. But it was an example of what sends Sierra
into a tizzy. Simple little things like that. Things that are just fine one
minute and a whole other story the next. Just that quick.
Partly it was just kind of a hair-trigger biochemical thing with her. She
changes fast. Whatever that means physically, the chemicals that go to
people's blood and brains comes really fast with her and dissipates really
fast too. She flares up. It was even worse when she was an adult.
One time she was all a-rant with me about something, and I said "Everything
is the last straw with you."
"What do you mean?"
"It's like you have this cartload of straw, and to calm down you just take
off one single straw, so that you can maintain again, but the next thing that
happens is THE LAST STRAW! You need to unload about HALF that straw if you
want to be able to handle anything calmly."
If this is anything like your daughter, what you might help her do is unload
a bunch of that straw. Find out a dozen or two dozen things to do to make
her life more comfortable, more calm, more interesting and appealing to her.
Find out what others (including parents) are doing that irritates her, and
put those on the list of things to avoid doing if possible.
I hate the sound of nail clippers. I can't stand it. If people in my family
said "That's stupid, get over it," I wouldn't like them as much as I do.
What they do is say "I'm going to close the door because I'm going to clip my
nails," or will say "I have to clip my nails, mom," and I'll say "I need to
go tof range for my nervous system to have it's shuddering freak-out. (I
think it's like some people are about chalk on a chalkboard, nails on a sink,
or fingers pulled across balloons. None of those sounds bother me, but I'm
careful not to make those noises because I know how painful nail clippers can
be for me.)
If anyone in your family is doing anything that they KNOW bothers that child
and they're doing it anyway, that's no more okay than if they were walking by
and slapping her. Her stress level will stay too high for her to function in
a calm and healthy manner.
If people in your family are pressing her to "act right" instead of helping
her FEEL right, the problem is the family and not the child.
She should feel safer and more loved right now than she ever will feel again
in her life, if you can manage that. And showers aren't safety issues, in
most cases. If she gets acid or bleach splashed on her, throw her in the
shower screaming. If you are thinking "shower time" because of the clock, or
beause of what your mother used to do, or because of ANYTHING that isn't that
child directly, shower time should be thrown out and that energy put into
loving your daughter.
If that seems too dramatic or impassioned, maybe you need more drama and
passion in your relationships with your kids. They won't get today back.
Make it as good as can be.
Sandra
<< The shower wasn't a big deal. But it was an example of what sends Sierra
into a tizzy. Simple little things like that. Things that are just fine one
minute and a whole other story the next. Just that quick.
>>My sister used to go crazy in a second. REALLY angry. Or REALLY scared.
Partly it was just kind of a hair-trigger biochemical thing with her. She
changes fast. Whatever that means physically, the chemicals that go to
people's blood and brains comes really fast with her and dissipates really
fast too. She flares up. It was even worse when she was an adult.
One time she was all a-rant with me about something, and I said "Everything
is the last straw with you."
"What do you mean?"
"It's like you have this cartload of straw, and to calm down you just take
off one single straw, so that you can maintain again, but the next thing that
happens is THE LAST STRAW! You need to unload about HALF that straw if you
want to be able to handle anything calmly."
If this is anything like your daughter, what you might help her do is unload
a bunch of that straw. Find out a dozen or two dozen things to do to make
her life more comfortable, more calm, more interesting and appealing to her.
Find out what others (including parents) are doing that irritates her, and
put those on the list of things to avoid doing if possible.
I hate the sound of nail clippers. I can't stand it. If people in my family
said "That's stupid, get over it," I wouldn't like them as much as I do.
What they do is say "I'm going to close the door because I'm going to clip my
nails," or will say "I have to clip my nails, mom," and I'll say "I need to
go tof range for my nervous system to have it's shuddering freak-out. (I
think it's like some people are about chalk on a chalkboard, nails on a sink,
or fingers pulled across balloons. None of those sounds bother me, but I'm
careful not to make those noises because I know how painful nail clippers can
be for me.)
If anyone in your family is doing anything that they KNOW bothers that child
and they're doing it anyway, that's no more okay than if they were walking by
and slapping her. Her stress level will stay too high for her to function in
a calm and healthy manner.
If people in your family are pressing her to "act right" instead of helping
her FEEL right, the problem is the family and not the child.
She should feel safer and more loved right now than she ever will feel again
in her life, if you can manage that. And showers aren't safety issues, in
most cases. If she gets acid or bleach splashed on her, throw her in the
shower screaming. If you are thinking "shower time" because of the clock, or
beause of what your mother used to do, or because of ANYTHING that isn't that
child directly, shower time should be thrown out and that energy put into
loving your daughter.
If that seems too dramatic or impassioned, maybe you need more drama and
passion in your relationships with your kids. They won't get today back.
Make it as good as can be.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
The shower wasn't a big deal. But it was an example of what sends Sierra into a tizzy. Simple little things like that. Things that are just fine one minute and a whole other story the next. Just that quick.<<<<<
I'm just thinking out loud here. I am still working on it, but I would have been frustrated too. And if you and Joe have been feeling awful all week I can see how things could have gotten frustrating more quickly than usual. We're all human.
On the other hand, I think it sounds like Sierra is developing a pattern of behavior that is not beneficial to her or the rest of the family, and she probably doesn't understand it herself.
If she changes that quickly, I think I would just "change with her" and let it go. Don't talk about it, don't try to "understand" it. Just accept it and let it go.
I am wondering if by focusing so much attention on it (for the sake of understanding) if its backfiring on you by making her feel overwhelmed or something.
See if it helps to just "roll with it" and not focus on it.
Kristen
I'm just thinking out loud here. I am still working on it, but I would have been frustrated too. And if you and Joe have been feeling awful all week I can see how things could have gotten frustrating more quickly than usual. We're all human.
On the other hand, I think it sounds like Sierra is developing a pattern of behavior that is not beneficial to her or the rest of the family, and she probably doesn't understand it herself.
If she changes that quickly, I think I would just "change with her" and let it go. Don't talk about it, don't try to "understand" it. Just accept it and let it go.
I am wondering if by focusing so much attention on it (for the sake of understanding) if its backfiring on you by making her feel overwhelmed or something.
See if it helps to just "roll with it" and not focus on it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] still need help
From: genant2@...
<<Maybe making her take a shower isn't worth the disruption to the rest of the
house.>>
You're right and it wasn't and she ended up not taking one. Thing is I didn't know what was going on until it was too late. Joe has been in pain for a week now and not working like he needs to and just out of sorts. Plus he really doesn't always remember to do the right thing with the kids. He's trying, but sometimes slips. I have been feeling awful and from in the living room where I was, I couldn't hear what was going on.
The shower wasn't a big deal. But it was an example of what sends Sierra into a tizzy. Simple little things like that. Things that are just fine one minute and a whole other story the next. Just that quick.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: Christina Morrissey
<<This is what it sounded to me: at the point when your husband tried to get
her to stop and get into the shower, she was soooo wound up in her
EXPERIENCE, that she COULDN'T stop on her own, and the transition was too
abrupt for her. So she started crying which wound her up even more. When
you entered the picture and began talking to her that added a whole new
demand on her system. Then you touched her (grabbed her hand) adding a
new sensory element and at this point she is so overwhelmed, she
SCREAMED. Her system can't handle anything more. You see it as a
tantrum. She feels it as uncontrollable sensory overload. She is unable
to stop her emotions, senses, whatever, she's scared, needs help, and
doesn't know how to get it. Often removal from the scene, the noise; quiet
and then your hug which brings her back to herself and reassures her that
she has control once again, will allow her to once again be able to think!>>
Thanks Christina, it sounds like that is exactly what happened with her. I have been making a note lately as to when and under what circumstances Sierra has her meltdowns. This is just all so new to us. We've never come across anything like this before. I never even understood about some children being extremely sensitive and all. It makes so much sense though when I look back on things. I remember Sierra having a cyst on her arm that had to be removed. They had given her topical numbing stuff to put on it before they injected it further to numb it and then have it removed. I used the stuff myself to see how it worked and it literally numbed the skin so you couldn't feel anything. Well when the time came, she screamed like someone was ripping her heart out. It was awful and so hard to get the problem taken care of under those circumstances. I just couldn't understand what the big deal was when you couldn't feel anything. Now I get it and realize how it must have been for her. If only I would have known then. The term that comes to my mind (from relatives) is overly sensitive and that doesn't help but says a whole lot about a kid just being hard to handle instead of truly having a problem.
I've found that Sierra does so much better when I just leae her alone when she gets that way. Holding her seems to make her cry harder and longer. I guess again too much when she doesn't need it. Last night after the episode, she curled up under a blanket in bed totally hidden. We just left her alone and she came out a little while later like nothing ever happened. I just have a hard time thinking me leaving her alone is best. Seems like as a mom, I should be able to DO something to help. To be there for her to make it all better. It works with the other 3. Although now that I think about it, Tara likes to be alone at first whenever there is a crisis. She likes the comfort later after she's calmed down. Maybe all those years of my being there made it worse when I should have left her alone. Hindsight!
So thank you so much for making me understand what could possibly be going on in her mind. I will have a long talk with Joe tonight and hopefully we can do what's best for her so she can get through all this.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<This is what it sounded to me: at the point when your husband tried to get
her to stop and get into the shower, she was soooo wound up in her
EXPERIENCE, that she COULDN'T stop on her own, and the transition was too
abrupt for her. So she started crying which wound her up even more. When
you entered the picture and began talking to her that added a whole new
demand on her system. Then you touched her (grabbed her hand) adding a
new sensory element and at this point she is so overwhelmed, she
SCREAMED. Her system can't handle anything more. You see it as a
tantrum. She feels it as uncontrollable sensory overload. She is unable
to stop her emotions, senses, whatever, she's scared, needs help, and
doesn't know how to get it. Often removal from the scene, the noise; quiet
and then your hug which brings her back to herself and reassures her that
she has control once again, will allow her to once again be able to think!>>
Thanks Christina, it sounds like that is exactly what happened with her. I have been making a note lately as to when and under what circumstances Sierra has her meltdowns. This is just all so new to us. We've never come across anything like this before. I never even understood about some children being extremely sensitive and all. It makes so much sense though when I look back on things. I remember Sierra having a cyst on her arm that had to be removed. They had given her topical numbing stuff to put on it before they injected it further to numb it and then have it removed. I used the stuff myself to see how it worked and it literally numbed the skin so you couldn't feel anything. Well when the time came, she screamed like someone was ripping her heart out. It was awful and so hard to get the problem taken care of under those circumstances. I just couldn't understand what the big deal was when you couldn't feel anything. Now I get it and realize how it must have been for her. If only I would have known then. The term that comes to my mind (from relatives) is overly sensitive and that doesn't help but says a whole lot about a kid just being hard to handle instead of truly having a problem.
I've found that Sierra does so much better when I just leae her alone when she gets that way. Holding her seems to make her cry harder and longer. I guess again too much when she doesn't need it. Last night after the episode, she curled up under a blanket in bed totally hidden. We just left her alone and she came out a little while later like nothing ever happened. I just have a hard time thinking me leaving her alone is best. Seems like as a mom, I should be able to DO something to help. To be there for her to make it all better. It works with the other 3. Although now that I think about it, Tara likes to be alone at first whenever there is a crisis. She likes the comfort later after she's calmed down. Maybe all those years of my being there made it worse when I should have left her alone. Hindsight!
So thank you so much for making me understand what could possibly be going on in her mind. I will have a long talk with Joe tonight and hopefully we can do what's best for her so she can get through all this.
Mary B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
Mary,
With people not feeling their best there are going to be moments more
stressful than usual.
Your husband played with her at first, just as if her game was a great
idea and fun for him too. Then he got tired of it and wanted it over
long before Sierra would have liked. It's not her fault he wasn't in
the mood to play. It's not her fault he opted into the game under false
pretenses. (not planning on finishing it) It's not her fault grown ups
(sick ones or stressed ones) get grumpy at little girls.
She had all that bad stuff happen to her, I'd say she had her reasons for
getting upset.
Man, would you want a little girl who couldn't express herself when
something bad happened?
She's communicating all over the place, Mary. Maybe in a different way
than what you're used to but she's doing it. Let her be herself
without a fight. She won't get another chance to be a seven year old,
just let her be the one she wants to be. If you don't understand her
right now, just find a way to not fight with her.
If she gets too stinky, take her swimming. <g>
Deb L
With people not feeling their best there are going to be moments more
stressful than usual.
Your husband played with her at first, just as if her game was a great
idea and fun for him too. Then he got tired of it and wanted it over
long before Sierra would have liked. It's not her fault he wasn't in
the mood to play. It's not her fault he opted into the game under false
pretenses. (not planning on finishing it) It's not her fault grown ups
(sick ones or stressed ones) get grumpy at little girls.
She had all that bad stuff happen to her, I'd say she had her reasons for
getting upset.
Man, would you want a little girl who couldn't express herself when
something bad happened?
She's communicating all over the place, Mary. Maybe in a different way
than what you're used to but she's doing it. Let her be herself
without a fight. She won't get another chance to be a seven year old,
just let her be the one she wants to be. If you don't understand her
right now, just find a way to not fight with her.
If she gets too stinky, take her swimming. <g>
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/18/03 12:00:31 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< I remember Sierra having a cyst on her arm that had to be removed. They
had given her topical numbing stuff to put on it before they injected it
further to numb it and then have it removed. I used the stuff myself to see
how it worked and it literally numbed the skin so you couldn't feel anything.
Well when the time came, she screamed like someone was ripping her heart out.
It was awful and so hard to get the problem taken care of under those
circumstances. I just couldn't understand what the big deal was when you
couldn't feel anything. >>
Just because you couldn't feel anything doesn't mean she couldn't. People's
nervous systems must be at LEAST as different as their noses, or their hair,
or their brains... since we readily admit brains are very different,
"nerves," being part of that, must be too.
My husband has a very high pain threshhold. He can keep functioning with
broken bones and serious sprains and pulls. He had back problems when he was
younger. One night he literally could not get up from where he had been
sitting on the floor. People helped him up on the couch, he rested a bit,
hobbled to the car and went to the emergency room. The doctor was stunned.
Medically, he shouldn't have been able to walk or move at all. Nobody told
Keith!
I, on the other hand, can become temporarily incapacitated from stubbing my
toe or hitting my head. BLINDING, real pain. It goes away in a bit, and
deep breathing helps a whole lot. But those first few seconds cannot be
reasoned away at all. It's real.
-=- We just left her alone and she came out a little while later like nothing
ever happened. I just have a hard time thinking me leaving her alone is best.
Seems like as a mom, I should be able to DO something to help. -=-
Seems leaving her in a quiet place, undisturbed, was what she wanted. Doing
it sweetly instead of punitively will help. I'm guilty of sometimes getting
frustrated with Holly and getting away from her in a meaner-than-necessary
way. It would be better if I just said "I'm going to go sort laundry" in a
happy or neutral way and went away, it would keep her from feeling like I
wanted to be where she wasn't. I keep reminding myself, and I get better. I
don't remember having those incidents with Marty or Kirby. Maybe I did but
it was different because there was a younger child to attend to and it made a
calm, good-mother way for me to leave. With Holly being the youngest, I just
have to leave sometimes.
Sandra
<< I remember Sierra having a cyst on her arm that had to be removed. They
had given her topical numbing stuff to put on it before they injected it
further to numb it and then have it removed. I used the stuff myself to see
how it worked and it literally numbed the skin so you couldn't feel anything.
Well when the time came, she screamed like someone was ripping her heart out.
It was awful and so hard to get the problem taken care of under those
circumstances. I just couldn't understand what the big deal was when you
couldn't feel anything. >>
Just because you couldn't feel anything doesn't mean she couldn't. People's
nervous systems must be at LEAST as different as their noses, or their hair,
or their brains... since we readily admit brains are very different,
"nerves," being part of that, must be too.
My husband has a very high pain threshhold. He can keep functioning with
broken bones and serious sprains and pulls. He had back problems when he was
younger. One night he literally could not get up from where he had been
sitting on the floor. People helped him up on the couch, he rested a bit,
hobbled to the car and went to the emergency room. The doctor was stunned.
Medically, he shouldn't have been able to walk or move at all. Nobody told
Keith!
I, on the other hand, can become temporarily incapacitated from stubbing my
toe or hitting my head. BLINDING, real pain. It goes away in a bit, and
deep breathing helps a whole lot. But those first few seconds cannot be
reasoned away at all. It's real.
-=- We just left her alone and she came out a little while later like nothing
ever happened. I just have a hard time thinking me leaving her alone is best.
Seems like as a mom, I should be able to DO something to help. -=-
Seems leaving her in a quiet place, undisturbed, was what she wanted. Doing
it sweetly instead of punitively will help. I'm guilty of sometimes getting
frustrated with Holly and getting away from her in a meaner-than-necessary
way. It would be better if I just said "I'm going to go sort laundry" in a
happy or neutral way and went away, it would keep her from feeling like I
wanted to be where she wasn't. I keep reminding myself, and I get better. I
don't remember having those incidents with Marty or Kirby. Maybe I did but
it was different because there was a younger child to attend to and it made a
calm, good-mother way for me to leave. With Holly being the youngest, I just
have to leave sometimes.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/17/2003 11:40:29 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
they did before is sometimes easier, I think, because we as parents know how
to work it. Thanks. I'm going to leave my 80 unread messages and work on
myself now.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Flexibility seems to be a better policy than convincing kids to do what theyWow. I know I'm a day behind here, but this really helps me right now. What
>
> did before just because they did it before.
>
they did before is sometimes easier, I think, because we as parents know how
to work it. Thanks. I'm going to leave my 80 unread messages and work on
myself now.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]