Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] forks
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/11/2003 11:10:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sammimag@... writes:
I learned this just last week! During colonial times, we only had spoons and
knives. The fork was invented in Europe. There was a shipment of spoons
expected in the colonies, but a shipment of forks arrived by mistake. The
colonists had only used spoons, so they USED them as spoons to "scoop"
instead of their original purpose, to STAB. The only ones who could afford
the forks were the rich, so they got to develop the "correct etiquette" of
using forks, which has been handed down to today.
Cool, huh?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sammimag@... writes:
> And they don't switch hands with their forks either they keep the forkOOH! OOH! OOH! DO you know WHY???????
> in their left hand and use the right hand for the knife.
>
>
I learned this just last week! During colonial times, we only had spoons and
knives. The fork was invented in Europe. There was a shipment of spoons
expected in the colonies, but a shipment of forks arrived by mistake. The
colonists had only used spoons, so they USED them as spoons to "scoop"
instead of their original purpose, to STAB. The only ones who could afford
the forks were the rich, so they got to develop the "correct etiquette" of
using forks, which has been handed down to today.
Cool, huh?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/11/03 11:21:07 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< so they USED them as spoons to "scoop"
instead of their original purpose, to STAB >>
So...
In Europe do they "gig their peas"?
I was told "Don't gig your peas."
We were required to use forks to scoop, not to stab, except for switching
hands and stabbing meat to hold it while we cut it with our right hands.
The only other use of "gig" that I know of is the term for a horribly
dangerous looking tool which is a little trident at the end of a stick like a
rake handle, called a "frog gigger." So between those I know what "gig" is.
Sandra
<< so they USED them as spoons to "scoop"
instead of their original purpose, to STAB >>
So...
In Europe do they "gig their peas"?
I was told "Don't gig your peas."
We were required to use forks to scoop, not to stab, except for switching
hands and stabbing meat to hold it while we cut it with our right hands.
The only other use of "gig" that I know of is the term for a horribly
dangerous looking tool which is a little trident at the end of a stick like a
rake handle, called a "frog gigger." So between those I know what "gig" is.
Sandra
[email protected]
So...
In Europe do they "gig their peas"?
I was told "Don't gig your peas."
We were required to use forks to scoop, not to stab, except for switching
hands and stabbing meat to hold it while we cut it with our right hands.
History of the fork website (SCA):
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/use.html#zig
How to Use a Knife, Fork, and Spoon
An Introduction
The rules that specify how knife, fork, and spoon must be used have evolved
along with the <A HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/utensils.html">forms of the utensils</A> themselves. In general, these rules are
explicitly intended to prevent the utensils from appearing threatening.
Margaret Visser, in her book The Rituals of Dinner, points out that etiquette
and the ritual it imposes helps to control the violence inherent in the
preparation and serving of meals. Animals are slaughtered and consumed, the
guest-host relationship is, in itself, a complicated interweaving of the
imposition of <A HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/abe.html">obligation</A> and suspension of <A HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/odysseus.html">hostility</A>, and the ordinary table
knife is related to actual weapons of war. Consequently, flatware is held
delicately, carefully balanced on the prescribed fingers and guided by the
fingertips. To hold any utensil in a fist or to manipulate it in such a way
that is pointed at anyone would hint at potential danger, as would even
setting it down in an inappropriate way.
Holding a Utensil
In general use, both spoon and fork are held horizontally by balancing them
between the first knuckle of the middle finger and the tip of the index
finger while the thumb steadies the handle. The knife is used with the tip of
the index finger gently pressing out over the top of the blade to guide as
you cut.
The Zig Zag Method
By American custom, which was brought about partly by the late introduction
of the fork into the culture, all three utensils are intended for use
primarily with the right hand, which is the more capable hand for most
people. This leads to some complicated maneuvering when foods, such as meat,
require the use of knife and fork to obtain a bite of manageable size. When
this is the case, the fork is held in the left hand, turned so that the tines
point downward, the better to hold the meat in place while the right hand
operates the knife. After a bite-sized piece has been cut, the diner sets the
knife down on the plate and transfers the fork to the right hand, so that it
can be used to carry the newly cut morsel to the mouth. Emily Post calls this
the "zig-zag" style.
European Style
The European, or "Continental," style of using knife and fork is somewhat
more efficient, and its practice is also common in the United States, where
left-handed children are no longer forced to learn to wield a fork with their
right hands. According to this method, the fork is held continuously in the
left hand and used for eating. When food must be cut, the fork is used
exactly as in the American style, except that once the bite has been
separated from the whole, it is conveyed directly to the mouth on the
downward-facing fork. Regardless of which style is used to operate fork and
knife, it is important never to cut more than one or two bites at one time.
Peas!
Another significant difference between the American and the Continental
styles of using knife and fork is the American insistence that even the most
awkward and contrary foods (peas being the traditional example) must be
captured by the unaided fork. In Europe it is permitted to use the knife or a
small bit of bread to ease a stubborn item onto the fork.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In Europe do they "gig their peas"?
I was told "Don't gig your peas."
We were required to use forks to scoop, not to stab, except for switching
hands and stabbing meat to hold it while we cut it with our right hands.
History of the fork website (SCA):
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/use.html#zig
How to Use a Knife, Fork, and Spoon
An Introduction
The rules that specify how knife, fork, and spoon must be used have evolved
along with the <A HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/utensils.html">forms of the utensils</A> themselves. In general, these rules are
explicitly intended to prevent the utensils from appearing threatening.
Margaret Visser, in her book The Rituals of Dinner, points out that etiquette
and the ritual it imposes helps to control the violence inherent in the
preparation and serving of meals. Animals are slaughtered and consumed, the
guest-host relationship is, in itself, a complicated interweaving of the
imposition of <A HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/abe.html">obligation</A> and suspension of <A HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/odysseus.html">hostility</A>, and the ordinary table
knife is related to actual weapons of war. Consequently, flatware is held
delicately, carefully balanced on the prescribed fingers and guided by the
fingertips. To hold any utensil in a fist or to manipulate it in such a way
that is pointed at anyone would hint at potential danger, as would even
setting it down in an inappropriate way.
Holding a Utensil
In general use, both spoon and fork are held horizontally by balancing them
between the first knuckle of the middle finger and the tip of the index
finger while the thumb steadies the handle. The knife is used with the tip of
the index finger gently pressing out over the top of the blade to guide as
you cut.
The Zig Zag Method
By American custom, which was brought about partly by the late introduction
of the fork into the culture, all three utensils are intended for use
primarily with the right hand, which is the more capable hand for most
people. This leads to some complicated maneuvering when foods, such as meat,
require the use of knife and fork to obtain a bite of manageable size. When
this is the case, the fork is held in the left hand, turned so that the tines
point downward, the better to hold the meat in place while the right hand
operates the knife. After a bite-sized piece has been cut, the diner sets the
knife down on the plate and transfers the fork to the right hand, so that it
can be used to carry the newly cut morsel to the mouth. Emily Post calls this
the "zig-zag" style.
European Style
The European, or "Continental," style of using knife and fork is somewhat
more efficient, and its practice is also common in the United States, where
left-handed children are no longer forced to learn to wield a fork with their
right hands. According to this method, the fork is held continuously in the
left hand and used for eating. When food must be cut, the fork is used
exactly as in the American style, except that once the bite has been
separated from the whole, it is conveyed directly to the mouth on the
downward-facing fork. Regardless of which style is used to operate fork and
knife, it is important never to cut more than one or two bites at one time.
Peas!
Another significant difference between the American and the Continental
styles of using knife and fork is the American insistence that even the most
awkward and contrary foods (peas being the traditional example) must be
captured by the unaided fork. In Europe it is permitted to use the knife or a
small bit of bread to ease a stubborn item onto the fork.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sorcha
Our picnic today:
We waited until baby brother was asleep so we could have a private
picnic. We ate apples cut into tiny pieces, which we speared with
condiment forks.
Then, you know the nursery rhyme where the dish runs away with the
spoon? Well, the cup ran away with the fork. The cup and the fork ran
away, all the way across the living room to the sliding glass door to
look out and see what was out there in the wide, wide world.
I got to be cup and he got to be fork. Cup and fork had a nice long
talk about all sorts of things that have been on fork's mind lately.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We waited until baby brother was asleep so we could have a private
picnic. We ate apples cut into tiny pieces, which we speared with
condiment forks.
Then, you know the nursery rhyme where the dish runs away with the
spoon? Well, the cup ran away with the fork. The cup and the fork ran
away, all the way across the living room to the sliding glass door to
look out and see what was out there in the wide, wide world.
I got to be cup and he got to be fork. Cup and fork had a nice long
talk about all sorts of things that have been on fork's mind lately.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Ackroyd
Isn't the internet amazing!!! I can't believe there is a website on even
this topic!
Interesting comment about the peas. I hadn't even thought of the
challenge of how to eat peas - but I guess that's because I eat
'European' style.
Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 11:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] forks
So...
In Europe do they "gig their peas"?
I was told "Don't gig your peas."
We were required to use forks to scoop, not to stab, except for
switching
hands and stabbing meat to hold it while we cut it with our right hands.
History of the fork website (SCA):
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/use.html#zig
How to Use a Knife, Fork, and Spoon
An Introduction
The rules that specify how knife, fork, and spoon must be used have
evolved
along with the <A
HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/utensils.html">forms of the
utensils</A> themselves. In general, these rules are
explicitly intended to prevent the utensils from appearing threatening.
Margaret Visser, in her book The Rituals of Dinner, points out that
etiquette
and the ritual it imposes helps to control the violence inherent in the
preparation and serving of meals. Animals are slaughtered and consumed,
the
guest-host relationship is, in itself, a complicated interweaving of the
imposition of <A
HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/abe.html">obligation</A> and
suspension of <A
HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/odysseus.html">hostility</A>,
and the ordinary table
knife is related to actual weapons of war. Consequently, flatware is
held
delicately, carefully balanced on the prescribed fingers and guided by
the
fingertips. To hold any utensil in a fist or to manipulate it in such a
way
that is pointed at anyone would hint at potential danger, as would even
setting it down in an inappropriate way.
Holding a Utensil
In general use, both spoon and fork are held horizontally by balancing
them
between the first knuckle of the middle finger and the tip of the index
finger while the thumb steadies the handle. The knife is used with the
tip of
the index finger gently pressing out over the top of the blade to guide
as
you cut.
The Zig Zag Method
By American custom, which was brought about partly by the late
introduction
of the fork into the culture, all three utensils are intended for use
primarily with the right hand, which is the more capable hand for most
people. This leads to some complicated maneuvering when foods, such as
meat,
require the use of knife and fork to obtain a bite of manageable size.
When
this is the case, the fork is held in the left hand, turned so that the
tines
point downward, the better to hold the meat in place while the right
hand
operates the knife. After a bite-sized piece has been cut, the diner
sets the
knife down on the plate and transfers the fork to the right hand, so
that it
can be used to carry the newly cut morsel to the mouth. Emily Post calls
this
the "zig-zag" style.
European Style
The European, or "Continental," style of using knife and fork is
somewhat
more efficient, and its practice is also common in the United States,
where
left-handed children are no longer forced to learn to wield a fork with
their
right hands. According to this method, the fork is held continuously in
the
left hand and used for eating. When food must be cut, the fork is used
exactly as in the American style, except that once the bite has been
separated from the whole, it is conveyed directly to the mouth on the
downward-facing fork. Regardless of which style is used to operate fork
and
knife, it is important never to cut more than one or two bites at one
time.
Peas!
Another significant difference between the American and the Continental
styles of using knife and fork is the American insistence that even the
most
awkward and contrary foods (peas being the traditional example) must be
captured by the unaided fork. In Europe it is permitted to use the knife
or a
small bit of bread to ease a stubborn item onto the fork.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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this topic!
Interesting comment about the peas. I hadn't even thought of the
challenge of how to eat peas - but I guess that's because I eat
'European' style.
Dawn
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 11:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] forks
So...
In Europe do they "gig their peas"?
I was told "Don't gig your peas."
We were required to use forks to scoop, not to stab, except for
switching
hands and stabbing meat to hold it while we cut it with our right hands.
History of the fork website (SCA):
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/use.html#zig
How to Use a Knife, Fork, and Spoon
An Introduction
The rules that specify how knife, fork, and spoon must be used have
evolved
along with the <A
HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/utensils.html">forms of the
utensils</A> themselves. In general, these rules are
explicitly intended to prevent the utensils from appearing threatening.
Margaret Visser, in her book The Rituals of Dinner, points out that
etiquette
and the ritual it imposes helps to control the violence inherent in the
preparation and serving of meals. Animals are slaughtered and consumed,
the
guest-host relationship is, in itself, a complicated interweaving of the
imposition of <A
HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/abe.html">obligation</A> and
suspension of <A
HREF="http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/odysseus.html">hostility</A>,
and the ordinary table
knife is related to actual weapons of war. Consequently, flatware is
held
delicately, carefully balanced on the prescribed fingers and guided by
the
fingertips. To hold any utensil in a fist or to manipulate it in such a
way
that is pointed at anyone would hint at potential danger, as would even
setting it down in an inappropriate way.
Holding a Utensil
In general use, both spoon and fork are held horizontally by balancing
them
between the first knuckle of the middle finger and the tip of the index
finger while the thumb steadies the handle. The knife is used with the
tip of
the index finger gently pressing out over the top of the blade to guide
as
you cut.
The Zig Zag Method
By American custom, which was brought about partly by the late
introduction
of the fork into the culture, all three utensils are intended for use
primarily with the right hand, which is the more capable hand for most
people. This leads to some complicated maneuvering when foods, such as
meat,
require the use of knife and fork to obtain a bite of manageable size.
When
this is the case, the fork is held in the left hand, turned so that the
tines
point downward, the better to hold the meat in place while the right
hand
operates the knife. After a bite-sized piece has been cut, the diner
sets the
knife down on the plate and transfers the fork to the right hand, so
that it
can be used to carry the newly cut morsel to the mouth. Emily Post calls
this
the "zig-zag" style.
European Style
The European, or "Continental," style of using knife and fork is
somewhat
more efficient, and its practice is also common in the United States,
where
left-handed children are no longer forced to learn to wield a fork with
their
right hands. According to this method, the fork is held continuously in
the
left hand and used for eating. When food must be cut, the fork is used
exactly as in the American style, except that once the bite has been
separated from the whole, it is conveyed directly to the mouth on the
downward-facing fork. Regardless of which style is used to operate fork
and
knife, it is important never to cut more than one or two bites at one
time.
Peas!
Another significant difference between the American and the Continental
styles of using knife and fork is the American insistence that even the
most
awkward and contrary foods (peas being the traditional example) must be
captured by the unaided fork. In Europe it is permitted to use the knife
or a
small bit of bread to ease a stubborn item onto the fork.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 3/11/03 11:47:14 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< In Europe it is permitted to use the knife or a
small bit of bread to ease a stubborn item onto the fork. >>
But they'd still be using it as a spoon, if they can't just stab the fork
into a pea or green bean and pick it up.
Oh well. It's interesting to think about how millions of people eat because
of one bad shipment of flatware!
Sandra
<< In Europe it is permitted to use the knife or a
small bit of bread to ease a stubborn item onto the fork. >>
But they'd still be using it as a spoon, if they can't just stab the fork
into a pea or green bean and pick it up.
Oh well. It's interesting to think about how millions of people eat because
of one bad shipment of flatware!
Sandra
Sorcha
Um, I must have been raised in a barn. I always thought the fork was
for spearing things. Otherwise, the spoon would be sufficient for most
foods. In fact, my dad eats everything except meat and salad with a
spoon. Interesting reading.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for spearing things. Otherwise, the spoon would be sufficient for most
foods. In fact, my dad eats everything except meat and salad with a
spoon. Interesting reading.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
I often prefer a spoon to a fork.
I love to eat asparagus and green beans with my fingers.
We recently had a Chinese woman (only here in America for a short time) cook
for us at our house. She used only chopsticks to cook with.
Mary Ellen
I love to eat asparagus and green beans with my fingers.
We recently had a Chinese woman (only here in America for a short time) cook
for us at our house. She used only chopsticks to cook with.
Mary Ellen
Dawn Ackroyd
Good point. I've often thought lately when we set the table with knives,
forks and spoons, then night after night clear the table and put away
the spoons because they're not used - why do I do that??!! The only ones
who use spoons in our house are children who thinks forks are too pokey.
Otherwise, the spoons only get used if we have soup, or ice cream, or
something like that.
Funny, our differences, aren't they?!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sorcha [mailto:sorcha-aisling@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] forks
Um, I must have been raised in a barn. I always thought the fork was
for spearing things. Otherwise, the spoon would be sufficient for most
foods. In fact, my dad eats everything except meat and salad with a
spoon. Interesting reading.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
forks and spoons, then night after night clear the table and put away
the spoons because they're not used - why do I do that??!! The only ones
who use spoons in our house are children who thinks forks are too pokey.
Otherwise, the spoons only get used if we have soup, or ice cream, or
something like that.
Funny, our differences, aren't they?!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sorcha [mailto:sorcha-aisling@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] forks
Um, I must have been raised in a barn. I always thought the fork was
for spearing things. Otherwise, the spoon would be sufficient for most
foods. In fact, my dad eats everything except meat and salad with a
spoon. Interesting reading.
Sorcha
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>like a
> The only other use of "gig" that I know of is the term for a horribly
> dangerous looking tool which is a little trident at the end of a stick
> rake handle, called a "frog gigger." So between those I know what "gig"is.
A thought a gig was a job playing music. <g>
Tia
Tia Leschke
> Our picnic today:Cool!
>
> I got to be cup and he got to be fork. Cup and fork had a nice long
> talk about all sorts of things that have been on fork's mind lately.
Tia
Alan & Brenda Leonard
3/11/03 21:20:
However, I play gigs all the time -- it's the work freelance musicians do.
Wedding gigs, receptions, orchestras, chamber concerts, etc. We gig.
Don't recorder players gig? (I always knew there was something wrong with
those early music folks...) <g>
brenda
> The only other use of "gig" that I know of is the term for a horriblyI have never "gigged" my peas, nor do I know diddly about gardening.
> dangerous looking tool which is a little trident at the end of a stick like a
> rake handle, called a "frog gigger." So between those I know what "gig" is.
However, I play gigs all the time -- it's the work freelance musicians do.
Wedding gigs, receptions, orchestras, chamber concerts, etc. We gig.
Don't recorder players gig? (I always knew there was something wrong with
those early music folks...) <g>
brenda
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/11/03 2:54:11 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< A thought a gig was a job playing music. <g> >>
I guess especially if you overcharge!
<< A thought a gig was a job playing music. <g> >>
I guess especially if you overcharge!
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/11/03 3:17:28 PM, abtleo@... writes:
<< Don't recorder players gig? (I always knew there was something wrong with
those early music folks...) <g> >>
You could gig things with a pennywhistle, but not a recorder.
<< Don't recorder players gig? (I always knew there was something wrong with
those early music folks...) <g> >>
You could gig things with a pennywhistle, but not a recorder.
[email protected]
In a message dated 3-11-2003 12:01:09 PM Mountain Standard Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule
of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
--Frederick Douglass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorcha-aisling@... writes:
> I got to be cup and he got to be fork. Cup and fork had a nice long<sniff, sniff> I'm so glad to hear that :) How fun!
> talk about all sorts of things that have been on fork's mind lately.
>
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule
of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
--Frederick Douglass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jokly67
I do not know how I "learned" the way I eat. I was shuffled and also
did alot of victorian research even at a young age. My son calls me a
pea cutter because I eat my hotdogs and sometimes my hamburgers with
a fork and knife. I also eat food with the upside down fork after
cutting it with my knife. I do not "gig" my peas.
This was a neat and interesting discussion. My son is 16 and this
gave us a whole learning coversation. I also learned about myself.
Thanks, Jodie
did alot of victorian research even at a young age. My son calls me a
pea cutter because I eat my hotdogs and sometimes my hamburgers with
a fork and knife. I also eat food with the upside down fork after
cutting it with my knife. I do not "gig" my peas.
This was a neat and interesting discussion. My son is 16 and this
gave us a whole learning coversation. I also learned about myself.
Thanks, Jodie
Robin Bentley
>This is great. Some of my best conversations with my daughter are when we
> I got to be cup and he got to be fork. Cup and fork had a nice long
> talk about all sorts of things that have been on fork's mind lately.
are other than ourselves (animals, characters, role reversals.) I need to
remember to do it more often.
Robin B.