The account of Sandra in Saskatoon
[email protected]
[I'm sending this to a couple of lists, so if you see it twice, I'm sorry,
and you can delete it unread; they match.]
Feburary 27, Thursday at noon my husband took me to the airport. I was
really well prepared. I had been ready to go for over 24 hours. That has
never happened before. It happened because I was afraid.
I left Albuquerque around 2:00, stayed a long time in Minneapolis, and ended
up in Saskatoon at 11:30 at night.
Customs was only concerned about my jerkey. It was sealed, and American, so
I could keep it.
Ian and Barbie, who were the conference coordinators who had arranged for me
to be there, met me right away. I had planned to get cash at the airport,
but spaced it, being tired and my foot hurting, and their car being RIGHT
there, right outside the door.
The Saskatoon Inn was really near the airport and GORGEOUS inside--kind of a
jungle in the middle, with walkways and places to sit, and a pool, and just a
maze of pretty little nooks and turns. Restaurant and bar and hot tub and
little lounge areas all mixed in there in that open area with big tropical
plants.
Up on the second floor, where there was a balcony/hallway overlooking all
that, I met Ian's #1 and #1 children, young adults, and a son-in-law. Very
nice people.
When I got to my room, 627, with a view of snow-covered flatness and a few
businesses, but mostly bare prairie to the horizon, I realized I had not one
dollar of Canadian money, and my tapes were being delivered the next morning.
Luckily, I had half a sprite and half a bottle of orange juice in my pack,
and a bunch of nuts and jerkey, so I wasn't going to starve.
Downstairs was an ATM but it didn't deal in VISA, only Master Card.
Things eventually worked out, though.
February 28, Friday I went to put my things near the conference rooms, and
went toward the restaurant. Someone called me from up on the ramp, "Mrs.
Dodd?" I almost didn't hear it because of the water and all. I went back
and it was a TV reporter who wanted to interview me. So I went all the way
back up to the ballroom. She and the cameraman were especially friendly and
open, unlike what I was used to with dressed-up and officious and abrupt TV
people. Very nice. She asked me to summarize my opening talk, and asked me
a bit about homeschooling in general. I asked when it would be on and she
said that it was a local station, and the news repeated every hour, so if I
turned it on at the top of any hour I'd see it. Except when the hockey game
was on.
I was the first speaker, at 1:00. The announcements and greetings were after
my talk. I had just sent Ian a list of all the talks I'd ever done and he
had chosen some, so I was doing "What Teachers Know that You Don't Know."
There being no alternative, everyone who was already there was at that
presentation, and I'm not good with numbers, but I'm thinking it was over 300
people. Very big group. I've never spoken to a larger group, I don't think.
That particular talk is better suited to a smaller group, but it worked
out, and when I finished a bit early, I was really glad that there were a
couple of teachers in the audience who were willing to come to the audience
mike and back up my assertion that most of what teachers learn isn't useful
to homeschoolers anyway, being as it is mostly about group management, tests
and measures, school politics and record keeping, and so forth.
There was a break after that, and I set up a table in the hall to sell tapes
and Thinking Sticks. I don't think I sold any that first session, but I did
talk to people without pause for the couple of hours between sessions, and I
spoke at 4:30 on Unschooling. The group was smaller, but still over 100.
Maybe 175 people? (If anyone reading this was there and actually counted or
is better at estimation, feel VERY free to correct my numbers.)
That talk went really well and everybody got a Certificate of Empowerment,
but the photos of the kids didn't make it all the way around. I brought them
out again the next day, though, and also kept them out on the table for
people to see.
After that I sat at the table some more, sold some tapes, and officers of the
group gave me a Subway sandwich which was homey (foodwise) and friendly
(because I didn't have to put my stuff away to go and eat).
I had planned to go back to the room , put my foot up a while, and watch "An
American in Canada," a sitcom which had been advertised the night before on
TV. And then, I figured, the hour would turn and I'd see myself on TV, and
then I'd venture back out and socialize.
The sitcom, turns out, was the premier episode. It involved a guy moving
from Phoenix to Calgary to do the morning news show. (I read later that it
was filmed in Toronto and that the actor playing the American was from
Toronto too, but that's okay.)
On the local channel 10, the hockey game was on. Minor leagues, I think,
local team, Saskatoon Blades, happy to have a guy who had grown up there
having lately left some other team and come to play for them. I'd switch
channels, and read, and check back. Next hour; game still on.
I called home and talked to Kirby and Holly. Keith and Marty had gone to see
Daredevil. I asked Kirby to e-mail two unschooling lists to say I was having
a good time.
Hour; hockey.
Hour; hockey commentary. Discussion of the game, of other teams, of hockey,
of the fund raiser involving tie-dyed jerseys on tie-dyed night (or
something).
It was 10:00 and I was getting sleepy, but forced myself to stay awake until
11:00.
Saw myself on TV. Also the president of the provincial group hosting the
conference. Her last name is Dodds. She looked and sounded marvelous. I
sounded great, looked like a person who should REALLY get a haircut, wear
makeup and maybe lose 50 pounds before ever being on TV ever.
Decided 11:15 was too late to hobble downstairs and socialize, and my foot
was fat. Went merrily to sleep in a big bed in a dark room all by myself.
March 1, Saturday, went to breakfast. Ended up sitting and talking to a
couple who had heard me the day before. Another couple of moms had also
asked if I wanted to sit with them, but they'd already actually eaten, and
the young couple had a baby, so I told them getting to sit with a baby won
out, and they totally understood.
I went and sat with my tapes and sticks. Sold quite a few. Talked to lots
of people. Spoke twice in the afternoon, Dwindling crowd, which was totally
understandable, because the alternative talks were interesting and some
people had heard me already.
The first talk was Having Confidence in Yourself, and was (naturally) also
about unschooling, but was pretty much the same outline as the article
"Disposable Checklists," because that's where that article came from. Then
I did the game "That's Not Educational," and gave a prize for baggie twist
ties. Only one person in there had not already heard me speak, and after a
few items thrown out to be shown to be educational, it just turned into
questions and answers and that was fine.
I had moved my sales table inside the room and had been selling things
between talks, and sold some more after.
People had been wonderfully friendly and open and complimentary and
communicative. I had a GREAT time talking to people. Even those who were
disagreeing with me were really nice about it. ("Of course, they're
Canadians," one person who wasn't born Canadian or American either one told
me when I said that.) But both attendees and organizers were thanking me for
being so available between talks, and for being so down to earth and
friendly. It made me feel really good.
Then I packed up and went back to the room, having fulfilled my obligation.
But I wasn't through.
A largish group of unschoolers had chosen not to attend the conference for
socio-political reasons. I was sympathetic, because the New Mexico state
organization totally broke down and dissolved when unschoolers ran the state
conference one year. We couldn't survive unless we let the Christians run
everything, and they were unwilling to really share power and opportunity.
So something at least vaguely similar was going on in Saskatoon. Rather than
ask to be told the details I just said I would talk to the other faction as
well.
Perhaps that wasn't wholly right and good, but Saskatoon's a long way off,
and my personal motivation is to help people unschool more confidently and
peacefully. Yes, it would have been easier for me if they'd just gone to the
conference, but I do understand when groups split out over such philosophical
issues. And I had no contract saying I couldn't speak anywhere else. So
although it was unfair that the smaller group piggybacked (the word used by
someone in the larger group when complaining lightly about it) on the
conference, I didn't feel too guilty, because I had gone above and beyond
what I had been paid to do. Except for the evening waiting to see the news
blurb, I had been fully available to anyone who wanted to talk to me, and had
done four presentations.
I was fetched and taken to a Unitarian Church where there were desserts and
maybe 25 people. Some had been at the conference as well. That session just
turned into me telling stories, which seemed okay. There were some questions
and answers about younger kids reading and writing, about older kids' social
stuff, about parents' fears and the world changing. I enjoyed it.
Then I was privileged to stay in a guest bedroom which was a Barbie museum!
In the morning, March 2, a breakfast buffet at a different hotel was attended
by maybe (you'd think I could count a group THIS small) fifteen people. We
laughed and told stories and were philosophical and ate good food, and then I
was given a ride to the airport!
Two or three hours with a stop in Regina without changing planes. Very white
and cold. Minneapolis for four hours of magazine reading. I thought of
calling Susan Bundlie but I was afraid she'd feel bad for not picking me up
and I didn't really want to eat and I was almost too exhausted to think. So
I read about Ben Affleck and watched CNN news and kinda vegetated.
I had been afraid customs would question me about the leftover tapes (though
I'd sold more than half of the hundred I had had copied in Canada). I had
traded my sack of cash to someone with an American account for a check.
Canadians don't have $1 bills anymore. $5 is the smallest, so selling things
for $8 and $15 nets a bunch of $2 and $1 coins. But all customs cared about
was the egg decorating kit. Juxtaposed with my necklace (a brass pierce-work
plaque) it came to look like a knife in the x-rays, so my backpack was
searched. They didn't care anything about my carefully documented tapes with
the shrinkwrap and the Canadian receipt. Oh well.
I was met in Albuquerque by Keith and Holly, who had happy stories of the
weekend. Nobody had told Keith I had called on Friday. I had only brought
gifts for Holly. A Canada patch for her jean jacket which has lots of
patches (and she did go to Ontario a few years ago), a girls' magazine, a
math workbook (because she finished her Animaniacs workbook a couple of weeks
ago, and this one looked like the kind of geometrical and fractions stuff she
likes), and I gave her the egg decorating kit I had been given as a gift from
the unschooling group Saturday night. Carol Narigon made and gave us a
decorated Easter egg and Holly had said she thought she could do that, but I
said I didn't know how and special equipment was needed. Tadaaa! Special
equipment and instructions.
I was just brain-tired for a couple of days after getting home. I've finally
done my laundry, but haven't yet put papers away.
People in Saskatchewan were very friendly. I had a way better time than I
thought i would have. I was afraid I'd be all alone surrounded by strangers,
but it never felt that way from the moment I saw Ian and Barbie at the
airport.
and you can delete it unread; they match.]
Feburary 27, Thursday at noon my husband took me to the airport. I was
really well prepared. I had been ready to go for over 24 hours. That has
never happened before. It happened because I was afraid.
I left Albuquerque around 2:00, stayed a long time in Minneapolis, and ended
up in Saskatoon at 11:30 at night.
Customs was only concerned about my jerkey. It was sealed, and American, so
I could keep it.
Ian and Barbie, who were the conference coordinators who had arranged for me
to be there, met me right away. I had planned to get cash at the airport,
but spaced it, being tired and my foot hurting, and their car being RIGHT
there, right outside the door.
The Saskatoon Inn was really near the airport and GORGEOUS inside--kind of a
jungle in the middle, with walkways and places to sit, and a pool, and just a
maze of pretty little nooks and turns. Restaurant and bar and hot tub and
little lounge areas all mixed in there in that open area with big tropical
plants.
Up on the second floor, where there was a balcony/hallway overlooking all
that, I met Ian's #1 and #1 children, young adults, and a son-in-law. Very
nice people.
When I got to my room, 627, with a view of snow-covered flatness and a few
businesses, but mostly bare prairie to the horizon, I realized I had not one
dollar of Canadian money, and my tapes were being delivered the next morning.
Luckily, I had half a sprite and half a bottle of orange juice in my pack,
and a bunch of nuts and jerkey, so I wasn't going to starve.
Downstairs was an ATM but it didn't deal in VISA, only Master Card.
Things eventually worked out, though.
February 28, Friday I went to put my things near the conference rooms, and
went toward the restaurant. Someone called me from up on the ramp, "Mrs.
Dodd?" I almost didn't hear it because of the water and all. I went back
and it was a TV reporter who wanted to interview me. So I went all the way
back up to the ballroom. She and the cameraman were especially friendly and
open, unlike what I was used to with dressed-up and officious and abrupt TV
people. Very nice. She asked me to summarize my opening talk, and asked me
a bit about homeschooling in general. I asked when it would be on and she
said that it was a local station, and the news repeated every hour, so if I
turned it on at the top of any hour I'd see it. Except when the hockey game
was on.
I was the first speaker, at 1:00. The announcements and greetings were after
my talk. I had just sent Ian a list of all the talks I'd ever done and he
had chosen some, so I was doing "What Teachers Know that You Don't Know."
There being no alternative, everyone who was already there was at that
presentation, and I'm not good with numbers, but I'm thinking it was over 300
people. Very big group. I've never spoken to a larger group, I don't think.
That particular talk is better suited to a smaller group, but it worked
out, and when I finished a bit early, I was really glad that there were a
couple of teachers in the audience who were willing to come to the audience
mike and back up my assertion that most of what teachers learn isn't useful
to homeschoolers anyway, being as it is mostly about group management, tests
and measures, school politics and record keeping, and so forth.
There was a break after that, and I set up a table in the hall to sell tapes
and Thinking Sticks. I don't think I sold any that first session, but I did
talk to people without pause for the couple of hours between sessions, and I
spoke at 4:30 on Unschooling. The group was smaller, but still over 100.
Maybe 175 people? (If anyone reading this was there and actually counted or
is better at estimation, feel VERY free to correct my numbers.)
That talk went really well and everybody got a Certificate of Empowerment,
but the photos of the kids didn't make it all the way around. I brought them
out again the next day, though, and also kept them out on the table for
people to see.
After that I sat at the table some more, sold some tapes, and officers of the
group gave me a Subway sandwich which was homey (foodwise) and friendly
(because I didn't have to put my stuff away to go and eat).
I had planned to go back to the room , put my foot up a while, and watch "An
American in Canada," a sitcom which had been advertised the night before on
TV. And then, I figured, the hour would turn and I'd see myself on TV, and
then I'd venture back out and socialize.
The sitcom, turns out, was the premier episode. It involved a guy moving
from Phoenix to Calgary to do the morning news show. (I read later that it
was filmed in Toronto and that the actor playing the American was from
Toronto too, but that's okay.)
On the local channel 10, the hockey game was on. Minor leagues, I think,
local team, Saskatoon Blades, happy to have a guy who had grown up there
having lately left some other team and come to play for them. I'd switch
channels, and read, and check back. Next hour; game still on.
I called home and talked to Kirby and Holly. Keith and Marty had gone to see
Daredevil. I asked Kirby to e-mail two unschooling lists to say I was having
a good time.
Hour; hockey.
Hour; hockey commentary. Discussion of the game, of other teams, of hockey,
of the fund raiser involving tie-dyed jerseys on tie-dyed night (or
something).
It was 10:00 and I was getting sleepy, but forced myself to stay awake until
11:00.
Saw myself on TV. Also the president of the provincial group hosting the
conference. Her last name is Dodds. She looked and sounded marvelous. I
sounded great, looked like a person who should REALLY get a haircut, wear
makeup and maybe lose 50 pounds before ever being on TV ever.
Decided 11:15 was too late to hobble downstairs and socialize, and my foot
was fat. Went merrily to sleep in a big bed in a dark room all by myself.
March 1, Saturday, went to breakfast. Ended up sitting and talking to a
couple who had heard me the day before. Another couple of moms had also
asked if I wanted to sit with them, but they'd already actually eaten, and
the young couple had a baby, so I told them getting to sit with a baby won
out, and they totally understood.
I went and sat with my tapes and sticks. Sold quite a few. Talked to lots
of people. Spoke twice in the afternoon, Dwindling crowd, which was totally
understandable, because the alternative talks were interesting and some
people had heard me already.
The first talk was Having Confidence in Yourself, and was (naturally) also
about unschooling, but was pretty much the same outline as the article
"Disposable Checklists," because that's where that article came from. Then
I did the game "That's Not Educational," and gave a prize for baggie twist
ties. Only one person in there had not already heard me speak, and after a
few items thrown out to be shown to be educational, it just turned into
questions and answers and that was fine.
I had moved my sales table inside the room and had been selling things
between talks, and sold some more after.
People had been wonderfully friendly and open and complimentary and
communicative. I had a GREAT time talking to people. Even those who were
disagreeing with me were really nice about it. ("Of course, they're
Canadians," one person who wasn't born Canadian or American either one told
me when I said that.) But both attendees and organizers were thanking me for
being so available between talks, and for being so down to earth and
friendly. It made me feel really good.
Then I packed up and went back to the room, having fulfilled my obligation.
But I wasn't through.
A largish group of unschoolers had chosen not to attend the conference for
socio-political reasons. I was sympathetic, because the New Mexico state
organization totally broke down and dissolved when unschoolers ran the state
conference one year. We couldn't survive unless we let the Christians run
everything, and they were unwilling to really share power and opportunity.
So something at least vaguely similar was going on in Saskatoon. Rather than
ask to be told the details I just said I would talk to the other faction as
well.
Perhaps that wasn't wholly right and good, but Saskatoon's a long way off,
and my personal motivation is to help people unschool more confidently and
peacefully. Yes, it would have been easier for me if they'd just gone to the
conference, but I do understand when groups split out over such philosophical
issues. And I had no contract saying I couldn't speak anywhere else. So
although it was unfair that the smaller group piggybacked (the word used by
someone in the larger group when complaining lightly about it) on the
conference, I didn't feel too guilty, because I had gone above and beyond
what I had been paid to do. Except for the evening waiting to see the news
blurb, I had been fully available to anyone who wanted to talk to me, and had
done four presentations.
I was fetched and taken to a Unitarian Church where there were desserts and
maybe 25 people. Some had been at the conference as well. That session just
turned into me telling stories, which seemed okay. There were some questions
and answers about younger kids reading and writing, about older kids' social
stuff, about parents' fears and the world changing. I enjoyed it.
Then I was privileged to stay in a guest bedroom which was a Barbie museum!
In the morning, March 2, a breakfast buffet at a different hotel was attended
by maybe (you'd think I could count a group THIS small) fifteen people. We
laughed and told stories and were philosophical and ate good food, and then I
was given a ride to the airport!
Two or three hours with a stop in Regina without changing planes. Very white
and cold. Minneapolis for four hours of magazine reading. I thought of
calling Susan Bundlie but I was afraid she'd feel bad for not picking me up
and I didn't really want to eat and I was almost too exhausted to think. So
I read about Ben Affleck and watched CNN news and kinda vegetated.
I had been afraid customs would question me about the leftover tapes (though
I'd sold more than half of the hundred I had had copied in Canada). I had
traded my sack of cash to someone with an American account for a check.
Canadians don't have $1 bills anymore. $5 is the smallest, so selling things
for $8 and $15 nets a bunch of $2 and $1 coins. But all customs cared about
was the egg decorating kit. Juxtaposed with my necklace (a brass pierce-work
plaque) it came to look like a knife in the x-rays, so my backpack was
searched. They didn't care anything about my carefully documented tapes with
the shrinkwrap and the Canadian receipt. Oh well.
I was met in Albuquerque by Keith and Holly, who had happy stories of the
weekend. Nobody had told Keith I had called on Friday. I had only brought
gifts for Holly. A Canada patch for her jean jacket which has lots of
patches (and she did go to Ontario a few years ago), a girls' magazine, a
math workbook (because she finished her Animaniacs workbook a couple of weeks
ago, and this one looked like the kind of geometrical and fractions stuff she
likes), and I gave her the egg decorating kit I had been given as a gift from
the unschooling group Saturday night. Carol Narigon made and gave us a
decorated Easter egg and Holly had said she thought she could do that, but I
said I didn't know how and special equipment was needed. Tadaaa! Special
equipment and instructions.
I was just brain-tired for a couple of days after getting home. I've finally
done my laundry, but haven't yet put papers away.
People in Saskatchewan were very friendly. I had a way better time than I
thought i would have. I was afraid I'd be all alone surrounded by strangers,
but it never felt that way from the moment I saw Ian and Barbie at the
airport.
Fetteroll
What a sweet time it sounds like you had :-)
Welcome back (belatedly)!
Joyce
Welcome back (belatedly)!
Joyce
[email protected]
Thanks for sharing.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> Thanks for sharing.Yes, and welcome back. I'm sorry for scaring you. I'm glad it went well.
Was the egg decorating kit for making Ukrainian Easter eggs?
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/5/03 11:37:50 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< I'm sorry for scaring you. I'm glad it went well.
From the beginning it was rough. The first inquiry was last May. Then when
I asked whether they had already chosen, I was told the board was changing
and they'd get back to me. They got back in December. Still it was not
definite.
I'm used to knowing six months before and telling all my friends and a bunch
of strangers, having it on the website, making a fair amount of noise and
planning. This was very quiet and mysterious, relative to other
conferences.
But it did work out.
And the conference itself, in person, seemed extremely well organized and all
the running of it and announcements and the program were sharp and together.
Things started on time, people were friendly and calm. I know there was a
stressful meeting of the organization that went over its scheduled time, but
to outsiders (and other speakers, and vendors and guests) things seemed
peaceful and happy and smooth.
Sandra
<< I'm sorry for scaring you. I'm glad it went well.
>>Everything scared me! Thanks for giving me the clearest real information!
From the beginning it was rough. The first inquiry was last May. Then when
I asked whether they had already chosen, I was told the board was changing
and they'd get back to me. They got back in December. Still it was not
definite.
I'm used to knowing six months before and telling all my friends and a bunch
of strangers, having it on the website, making a fair amount of noise and
planning. This was very quiet and mysterious, relative to other
conferences.
But it did work out.
And the conference itself, in person, seemed extremely well organized and all
the running of it and announcements and the program were sharp and together.
Things started on time, people were friendly and calm. I know there was a
stressful meeting of the organization that went over its scheduled time, but
to outsiders (and other speakers, and vendors and guests) things seemed
peaceful and happy and smooth.
Sandra
myfunny4
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
What sort of disagreements did those people voice? Did they disagree
on the philosophy of unschooling (which, I believe, encompasses far
more than an educational method) or specific educational concerns?
I'm glad it was a worthwhile trip for you.
Debbie
> Even those who wereHi Sandra,
> disagreeing with me were really nice about it.
What sort of disagreements did those people voice? Did they disagree
on the philosophy of unschooling (which, I believe, encompasses far
more than an educational method) or specific educational concerns?
I'm glad it was a worthwhile trip for you.
Debbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/6/03 4:44:48 AM, Debbies4@... writes:
<< What sort of disagreements did those people voice? Did they disagree
on the philosophy of unschooling (which, I believe, encompasses far
more than an educational method) or specific educational concerns? >>
TV freedom.
Movies.
The internet.
Fears of kids seeing sex or hearing bad language.
Those were all in conversations around the table, some of which were
WONDERFULLY deep and intense.
One woman was saying her kids were older, 12ish, and she needed ways to
communicate with them and be with them. I suggested movies, and she said
they don't let their kids watch movies. No qualification given. Just "no
movies." I sat quietly for a couple of beats waiting for her to limit her
forbidden field, but she didn't. She looked at me, seeing that I was
unbelieving, and said "They have sex and bad language."
So if she won't watch movies with her kids, I was stumped. I just said some
of my best times have been watching movies with my kids, and that the little
ones never cared about kissy parts anyway, or the relationships.
Another couple, older (my age, not a really young couple) was Catholic and
had a teenaged boy. So we were talking teenagers. They said I really would
protect my children from seeing porn, though, right? I said they had seen
it, but I wasn't too worried. The dad VERY nicely was saying that since some
people become addicted it was too dangerous to let a kid see any because he
might be one of the addicted. I said if there is no hole or need in a child,
why would he become addicted to that? I told him Marty (who was the subject
at that moment) was really busy with his friends and gaming and scheduled
activities and didn't have the time or the sadness needed to fall into a
habit like that. He would never tell his friends, "I can't go to the movies,
I have to look at internet porn," and that I didn't think ANY happy busy
person would want to live there.
I can't say it was falling on deaf ears, but their fear of reported addiction
overrode any thought of WHY a person would prefer fantasy to his real life.
And that had come up because a woman asked me for some sort of specific
information (I forget what) which is easily available on the internet. Maybe
it was about college applications or SATs or some such. I asked if she had
internet access and her eyes fired up and she said they DID but her son had
visited cheat code sites.
Like for games?
Yes.
And those predators go there and put porn up. (This was news to me.)
And one day they came in and no matter what key they touched, another porn
window popped up, and he had only gone to game code sites.
So they cancelled their internet service that instant and that was the end of
the internet.
Because of predators and cheatcode sites.
What I figured happened, but I didn't argue with her except to say my kids go
to those sites a lot and that had never happened to us, was that her son
opened a crazy window-filled site, had no idea what to do, and went to bed.
When she came in they were still there and SHE had no idea what to do so she
got angry, confronted him, he lied and said I swear I only looked at cheat
codes and she cancelled the access.
But just because it's obvious to me doesn't mean she would have wanted to
hear it.
My kids would lie too if I were unreasonably affrighted of the thought of one
glimpse of nastiness. They would lie their butts off. But because our
relationship is more important to me than the fear of them seeing something
"bad," we have a relationship which is very unlikely to lead them to want
porn.
With the older dad, I did suggest that forbidding porn was more likely to
lead to obsession than casual advice and discouragement. I used the example
of "Darwinism" and evolution. My kids will never read Darwin, I figure. But
when some of those kids grow up whose parents based their whole lives on the
avoidance of input about evolution, they will wonder SO hard what the danger
is that they might actually read Darwin.
Sandra
<< What sort of disagreements did those people voice? Did they disagree
on the philosophy of unschooling (which, I believe, encompasses far
more than an educational method) or specific educational concerns? >>
TV freedom.
Movies.
The internet.
Fears of kids seeing sex or hearing bad language.
Those were all in conversations around the table, some of which were
WONDERFULLY deep and intense.
One woman was saying her kids were older, 12ish, and she needed ways to
communicate with them and be with them. I suggested movies, and she said
they don't let their kids watch movies. No qualification given. Just "no
movies." I sat quietly for a couple of beats waiting for her to limit her
forbidden field, but she didn't. She looked at me, seeing that I was
unbelieving, and said "They have sex and bad language."
So if she won't watch movies with her kids, I was stumped. I just said some
of my best times have been watching movies with my kids, and that the little
ones never cared about kissy parts anyway, or the relationships.
Another couple, older (my age, not a really young couple) was Catholic and
had a teenaged boy. So we were talking teenagers. They said I really would
protect my children from seeing porn, though, right? I said they had seen
it, but I wasn't too worried. The dad VERY nicely was saying that since some
people become addicted it was too dangerous to let a kid see any because he
might be one of the addicted. I said if there is no hole or need in a child,
why would he become addicted to that? I told him Marty (who was the subject
at that moment) was really busy with his friends and gaming and scheduled
activities and didn't have the time or the sadness needed to fall into a
habit like that. He would never tell his friends, "I can't go to the movies,
I have to look at internet porn," and that I didn't think ANY happy busy
person would want to live there.
I can't say it was falling on deaf ears, but their fear of reported addiction
overrode any thought of WHY a person would prefer fantasy to his real life.
And that had come up because a woman asked me for some sort of specific
information (I forget what) which is easily available on the internet. Maybe
it was about college applications or SATs or some such. I asked if she had
internet access and her eyes fired up and she said they DID but her son had
visited cheat code sites.
Like for games?
Yes.
And those predators go there and put porn up. (This was news to me.)
And one day they came in and no matter what key they touched, another porn
window popped up, and he had only gone to game code sites.
So they cancelled their internet service that instant and that was the end of
the internet.
Because of predators and cheatcode sites.
What I figured happened, but I didn't argue with her except to say my kids go
to those sites a lot and that had never happened to us, was that her son
opened a crazy window-filled site, had no idea what to do, and went to bed.
When she came in they were still there and SHE had no idea what to do so she
got angry, confronted him, he lied and said I swear I only looked at cheat
codes and she cancelled the access.
But just because it's obvious to me doesn't mean she would have wanted to
hear it.
My kids would lie too if I were unreasonably affrighted of the thought of one
glimpse of nastiness. They would lie their butts off. But because our
relationship is more important to me than the fear of them seeing something
"bad," we have a relationship which is very unlikely to lead them to want
porn.
With the older dad, I did suggest that forbidding porn was more likely to
lead to obsession than casual advice and discouragement. I used the example
of "Darwinism" and evolution. My kids will never read Darwin, I figure. But
when some of those kids grow up whose parents based their whole lives on the
avoidance of input about evolution, they will wonder SO hard what the danger
is that they might actually read Darwin.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/6/03 4:44:48 AM, Debbies4@... writes:
<< What sort of disagreements did those people voice? Did they disagree
on the philosophy of unschooling (which, I believe, encompasses far
more than an educational method) or specific educational concerns? >>
Oh. And the inadvertent insults I just let slide by.
A couple of people said they would never really be unschoolers, but what I
had said had really inspired them and would change a lot of how they were
being with their children and thanks. Then each of those two I'm thinking of
said something like some things are to important not to teach, but the rest
they would loose up on.
The insult is the suggestion (which they probably were unaware of making)
that I didn't think my kids were important, or that reading and math were
important, but THEY did, for their kids. And the suggestion which they
weren't meaning to make that my kids probably couldn't read or write or do
math.
So those I let go by like confused fish in busy water.
Sandra
<< What sort of disagreements did those people voice? Did they disagree
on the philosophy of unschooling (which, I believe, encompasses far
more than an educational method) or specific educational concerns? >>
Oh. And the inadvertent insults I just let slide by.
A couple of people said they would never really be unschoolers, but what I
had said had really inspired them and would change a lot of how they were
being with their children and thanks. Then each of those two I'm thinking of
said something like some things are to important not to teach, but the rest
they would loose up on.
The insult is the suggestion (which they probably were unaware of making)
that I didn't think my kids were important, or that reading and math were
important, but THEY did, for their kids. And the suggestion which they
weren't meaning to make that my kids probably couldn't read or write or do
math.
So those I let go by like confused fish in busy water.
Sandra
myfunny4
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry it took me a while to
acknowledge your response, but Kevin became very sick yesterday
afternoon. He was admitted to the children's hospital at 2:00 a.m.
My dh and I switched places late this afternoon so I could come home
and be with the other kids for a while, and get some much needed
sleep. (At my age, my back is not too forgiving of the pull-out
loungers that parents sleep on at the hospital!)
Anyway, I found it curious (but affirms my experience) that the
objections most people seem to have regarding unschooling are
targeted to issues other than basic *educational* issues. The issues
you listed, "TV freedom, movies, internet and fears of kids seeing
sex or hearing bad language," are core family/parenting issues.
Debbie
> << What sort of disagreements did those people voice? Did theydisagree
> on the philosophy of unschooling (which, I believe, encompasses farHi Sandra,
> more than an educational method) or specific educational concerns?
>>
> TV freedom.
> Movies.
> The internet.
> Fears of kids seeing sex or hearing bad language.
Thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry it took me a while to
acknowledge your response, but Kevin became very sick yesterday
afternoon. He was admitted to the children's hospital at 2:00 a.m.
My dh and I switched places late this afternoon so I could come home
and be with the other kids for a while, and get some much needed
sleep. (At my age, my back is not too forgiving of the pull-out
loungers that parents sleep on at the hospital!)
Anyway, I found it curious (but affirms my experience) that the
objections most people seem to have regarding unschooling are
targeted to issues other than basic *educational* issues. The issues
you listed, "TV freedom, movies, internet and fears of kids seeing
sex or hearing bad language," are core family/parenting issues.
Debbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/7/03 5:52:04 PM, Debbies4@... writes:
<< I'm sorry it took me a while to
acknowledge your response, but Kevin became very sick yesterday
afternoon. He was admitted to the children's hospital at 2:00 a.m. >>
How's Kevin?
<<Anyway, I found it curious (but affirms my experience) that the
objections most people seem to have regarding unschooling are
targeted to issues other than basic *educational* issues. The issues
you listed, "TV freedom, movies, internet and fears of kids seeing
sex or hearing bad language," are core family/parenting issues.>>
But unschooling launches the reconsideration of freedoms and learning. Once
"natural learning" comes into the picture, the definition of what's "natural"
has to as well.
Sandra
<< I'm sorry it took me a while to
acknowledge your response, but Kevin became very sick yesterday
afternoon. He was admitted to the children's hospital at 2:00 a.m. >>
How's Kevin?
<<Anyway, I found it curious (but affirms my experience) that the
objections most people seem to have regarding unschooling are
targeted to issues other than basic *educational* issues. The issues
you listed, "TV freedom, movies, internet and fears of kids seeing
sex or hearing bad language," are core family/parenting issues.>>
But unschooling launches the reconsideration of freedoms and learning. Once
"natural learning" comes into the picture, the definition of what's "natural"
has to as well.
Sandra
myfunny4
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
I'm writing this from one of the tempermental computers in the
hospital library. Kevin is very sick, but he is stable. He's
sleeping now while getting a blood transfusion, so I thought I'd
distract myself from hovering and worrying. <g> Thanks for asking
about my little man.
unschooling, the value of child-directed education is not questioned
as much as the *letting go* of parental direction. It's as if the
parent recognizes that her child learns best what he enjoys the most,
but the parent is afraid of letting go...simply because she *is* the
parent. For some parents, perhaps because of how they were raised or
conditioned by society, the problem is more a parenting conflict.
A "good" parent directs, guides, teaches, etc. A "good" parent makes
sure her child is reading good literature, watching educational tv
and videos, playing educational games, etc. I think that for some
people, they might see the naturalness of unschooling, but it's too
much of a leap from a parenting perspective. It's the fear factor;
fear that if they *don't* direct, guide, teach, etc. (and I know
those are all forms of control) they won't be *good* parents.
I'm probably not explaining this well, so I'll stop and try to
reorganize my thoughts so I can explain what I'm thinking.
Debbie
>Hi Sandra,
> How's Kevin?
>
I'm writing this from one of the tempermental computers in the
hospital library. Kevin is very sick, but he is stable. He's
sleeping now while getting a blood transfusion, so I thought I'd
distract myself from hovering and worrying. <g> Thanks for asking
about my little man.
>learning. Once
> But unschooling launches the reconsideration of freedoms and
> "natural learning" comes into the picture, the definition ofwhat's "natural"
> has to as well.From my experience and conversations with other homeschoolers about
unschooling, the value of child-directed education is not questioned
as much as the *letting go* of parental direction. It's as if the
parent recognizes that her child learns best what he enjoys the most,
but the parent is afraid of letting go...simply because she *is* the
parent. For some parents, perhaps because of how they were raised or
conditioned by society, the problem is more a parenting conflict.
A "good" parent directs, guides, teaches, etc. A "good" parent makes
sure her child is reading good literature, watching educational tv
and videos, playing educational games, etc. I think that for some
people, they might see the naturalness of unschooling, but it's too
much of a leap from a parenting perspective. It's the fear factor;
fear that if they *don't* direct, guide, teach, etc. (and I know
those are all forms of control) they won't be *good* parents.
I'm probably not explaining this well, so I'll stop and try to
reorganize my thoughts so I can explain what I'm thinking.
Debbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/8/03 12:32:25 PM, Debbies4@... writes:
<< A "good" parent directs, guides, teaches, etc. A "good" parent makes
sure her child is reading good literature, watching educational tv
and videos, playing educational games, etc. I think that for some
people, they might see the naturalness of unschooling, but it's too
much of a leap from a parenting perspective. >>
Right. But if they control literature and conversation and games and times
and places, where and how will unschooling/natural learning unfold?
Maybe it can fold out a little bit, but it can't really spread its wings and
fly, and then curl up in the corner and sleep until noon. <g>
Sandra
<< A "good" parent directs, guides, teaches, etc. A "good" parent makes
sure her child is reading good literature, watching educational tv
and videos, playing educational games, etc. I think that for some
people, they might see the naturalness of unschooling, but it's too
much of a leap from a parenting perspective. >>
Right. But if they control literature and conversation and games and times
and places, where and how will unschooling/natural learning unfold?
Maybe it can fold out a little bit, but it can't really spread its wings and
fly, and then curl up in the corner and sleep until noon. <g>
Sandra