Debi Watson

I have come a long way from where I was last spring when I first joined, but
I am having lots of trouble with this one. I am *not* stamping my feet and
saying that you all are wrong: I am saying that I need help seeing it the
way you do.
While I don't consciously expect my adult company to help tidy up after
dinner or tea or whatever, I really appreciate the company and the help and
it's a time to chat more with your hands in warm dishwater or leaning
against the counter or whatever. It's a comfortable time. And we have
found that with our abundant supply of "strew-ables" that many kids will
simply pick them up, dissemble them, and move on like mini tornadoes,
leaving wreckage and mayhem in their path. For example, the kids have a
large bin of Playmobil that they play exclusively Lord of the Rings with,
and another bin of just assorted Playmobil. We have kids come over who dump
out both sets on the floor, pull all the hair off the characters, tear off
their costumes, and then leave them mixed in a heap. My kids hate sorting
out that kind of a mess, and so do I. They have them sorted the way they
want them, and want to act things out with them -- not waste hours finding
the right hair for the characters and all their little props. Why should
the visiting kids not be expected to leave things the way they were when
they are finished? My kids do when they are out -- I help them, and we
never leave a disaster for our hosts. That's just being a good guest. If
my friends came to my house and pulled out all my clean laundry from my
drawers and mixed them with the towels and dishes, and then left me with the
resulting heap, *I* would be a trifle resentful. The attitude here is, if
it is important to you that the characters be put back ready for another
installment, then put them in the box. If you *don't* care, shove them
wherever, except in the oven because then they melt when I am pre-heating.
I think that if my friends' kids consistently made a huge mess for me and
*my* kids, we would either only visit there, or meet some place neutral.
What am I missing here? Debi

Karin

> I think that if my friends' kids consistently made a huge mess for me and
> *my* kids, we would either only visit there, or meet some place neutral.
> What am I missing here? Debi


If kids come over to our house and play with my kids toys and are not
considerate, my boys get really upset, too.
I don't think it's fair that guests should be able to come over and do as
they please without any regard to mess or whatever.
First, I think it's the fault of the parent (or adult) in charge who has
brought the kids over.
If my kids make a mess at someone else's house, I make sure that they help
put the mess away before we leave. If the mom or whoever says "just leave
it - you guys don't need to clean this up" then that's another matter. But
we always offer to clean up what the kids have all played with - and I will
get right in there (especially when they were younger) and help clean up,
too.

Now, as for what to do if the adult in charge at your house just doesn't
have a clue of offering to help clean up (or keep toys in order, as you
pointed out was another problem).
I would have no problem in voicing my concerns next time they come over
*before* the play session begins. I would say something like "if you are all
going to play with those toys, then you all must agree to help clean them up
when you are done." I would include my kids in on "the one's who will help
clean up", just so that it is everyone cleaning up together and so noone is
being singled out. I would also say all this in front of the mom (or adult
in charge) to let them know that this has been a problem in the past and
hopefully she will be sensitive to helping out.

If none of this works and kids coming over still make and leave a mess and
disregard you and your children's feelings, I wouldn't invite them over
anymore.

Karin

robbin whachell

Debi,

I can relate totally. I agree with you. I have four children and they
have lots of organized toys that they have enough trouble keeping in
order. They find it most frustrating when children come over and
demolish the place. We are trying to realize that "younger" children
will naturally do that and we cannot expect them to tidy up themselves -
so we have a group clean-up (usually begun by the visiting mother who
feels bad) after I ask my children to get involved. It seems to work out
and they understand that younger kids just require "a hand" as They Did
when they were younger.

If I had children over that were old enough to know to help tidy after
they were done playing, then I too would think twice about having them
over again. Who needs it?

~Robbin

-----Original Message-----
From: Debi Watson [mailto:debiwatson@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: clean up


I have come a long way from where I was last spring when I first joined,
but I am having lots of trouble with this one. I am *not* stamping my
feet and saying that you all are wrong: I am saying that I need help
seeing it the way you do.
While I don't consciously expect my adult company to help tidy up
after dinner or tea or whatever, I really appreciate the company and the
help and it's a time to chat more with your hands in warm dishwater or
leaning against the counter or whatever. It's a comfortable time. And
we have found that with our abundant supply of "strew-ables" that many
kids will simply pick them up, dissemble them, and move on like mini
tornadoes, leaving wreckage and mayhem in their path. For example, the
kids have a large bin of Playmobil that they play exclusively Lord of
the Rings with, and another bin of just assorted Playmobil. We have
kids come over who dump out both sets on the floor, pull all the hair
off the characters, tear off their costumes, and then leave them mixed
in a heap. My kids hate sorting out that kind of a mess, and so do I.
They have them sorted the way they want them, and want to act things out
with them -- not waste hours finding the right hair for the characters
and all their little props. Why should the visiting kids not be
expected to leave things the way they were when they are finished? My
kids do when they are out -- I help them, and we never leave a disaster
for our hosts. That's just being a good guest. If my friends came to
my house and pulled out all my clean laundry from my drawers and mixed
them with the towels and dishes, and then left me with the resulting
heap, *I* would be a trifle resentful. The attitude here is, if it is
important to you that the characters be put back ready for another
installment, then put them in the box. If you *don't* care, shove them
wherever, except in the oven because then they melt when I am
pre-heating. I think that if my friends' kids consistently made a huge
mess for me and
*my* kids, we would either only visit there, or meet some place neutral.
What am I missing here? Debi



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[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/03 7:27:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
debiwatson@... writes:

> I think that if my friends' kids consistently made a huge mess for me and
> *my* kids, we would either only visit there, or meet some place neutral.
> What am I missing here? Debi
>
>
>
>

I think that is totally reasonable and you are making the choices that you
can make. You can't make a decision for someone else though. You can't
demand that company helps out. They have a choice and you have a choice not
to have them back if you don't like the way they acted. If your children
don't like the way their toys are played with they can make the choice about
which toys they will allow company to play with. I would help my children
decide that ahead of time. When that person came to visit those toys would
go into a closet. I never expect others to clean up. If they do great. And
children love to come to our house. They can play with whatever and mix and
match toys and leave happy and it takes a few minutes to scoop up the LEGOs
and put them away and straighten all the books and pick up the empty
wrappers. And I love the fact that my boys have had a great day playing. I
know after a day of quilting with my best friend I never feel like cleaning
up. We have a cup of tea before she leaves back to NYC. I take a day or two
to look at what we accomplished and then get down to business and pick up
fabric and thread pieces etc. Sometimes it takes me a week to feel "in the
mood to straighten."

Everyone has a different view of clean or neat. If I constantly worry about
the mess after company leaves or if they are going to offer to help or not
then brood about how they left and didn't clean up, etc., then I totally mess
up the experience.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/03 7:15:04 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< If I had children over that were old enough to know to help tidy after
they were done playing, then I too would think twice about having them
over again. Who needs it? >>

That would be up to my children. If kids stress them out and they don't enjoy
the company, I wouldn't have them over most likely.
But if they have friends that do some annoying things, then I need to find
ways to help everyone deal with it.
If my children have toys they don't like messed with, we put those up when
company comes. Problem solved.
We only have things out that are ok to tear into.
And with very young children this is natural.

I try to clean a little here and there to keep a floor space available.
But I guess I just figure when company comes, chaos is going to happen to
some degree....that's ok.
When food is all over the floor and dishes strewn all over the house, THAT is
when I go bonkers.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/03 8:05:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Robbin@... writes:

> If I had children over that were old enough to know to help tidy after
> they were done playing, then I too would think twice about having them
> over again. Who needs it?
>
>

But then aren't you ruining a great experience for your children for the sake
of being neat. What they might be missing out on.

My boys are free to have company over just as I am and if the toys aren't
neat enough for their comfort level then they pick them up. If it isn't neat
enough for my comfort level then I clean them up. If they said they didn't
like how their toys were left (they have never said that) then we would talk
about ways to avoid that. Excluding that person isn't the only answer.
Maybe playing at a park or having a picnic. Putting some toys away. Etc.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

> I think that if my friends' kids consistently made a huge mess for me and
> *my* kids, we would either only visit there, or meet some place neutral.
> What am I missing here? Debi
>
>
>
>

>>>I think that is totally reasonable and you are making the choices that you
can make. You can't make a decision for someone else though. You can't
demand that company helps out.<<<


I agree. I encourage my kids to help out at someone else's house, and I encourage guests to help out at my house too (if its a huge overwhelming mess for all of us). But under ordinary circumstances, I don't make an issue out of it.

There are times when my neighbor calls and requests that one of my kids comes back over to help clean up and I send them. But my kids are ok with that, because they know that I will do the same for them if its really that bad. Now if I'm the one requesting the return of a child, and the neighbor mom or the child says "no", then thats fine. But I do sometimes make that request.

Kristen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/03 5:27:11 PM, debiwatson@... writes:

<< While I don't consciously expect my adult company to help tidy up after
dinner or tea or whatever, I really appreciate the company and the help and
it's a time to chat more with your hands in warm dishwater or leaning
against the counter or whatever. It's a comfortable time. >>

If you treat your kids like adult company, that's more likely to happen, when
they're older and past the scattering Playmobile stage.

-=-We have kids come over who dump
out both sets on the floor, pull all the hair off the characters, tear off
their costumes, and then leave them mixed in a heap. -=-

Maybe the Playmobile should be put up high when those particular kids come
over, or at least the LotR subset.

-=-My kids do when they are out -- I help them, and we
never leave a disaster for our hosts. That's just being a good guest.-=-

We do that too. But WE do it, because we want to.

There's a difference between volunteering to help and being told you're going
to help right now, the way *I* want to be helped, or you're not coming back.

-=-If my friends came to my house and pulled out all my clean laundry from my
drawers and mixed them with the towels and dishes, and then left me with the
resulting heap, *I* would be a trifle resentful. -=-

I wouldn't have friends who did that.

-=-I think that if my friends' kids consistently made a huge mess for me and
*my* kids, we would either only visit there, or meet some place neutral.-=-

Me too.

-=-What am I missing here? -=-

The direction of the demands and expectations, maybe?

Maybe people are just picturing a different level of mess in their various
stories.

Sandra

Mary Bianco

First of all I have a big problem with anyone who says to me "you should"
anything. My in laws use to tell me what I should and shouldn't do all the
time. It's a major sore spot with me. I don't see them anymore.

So right off the bat, the mom who said I should make my kids clean up would
hear from me. I would try and be nice. It doesn't always work. I can
honestly say that whenever my kids have gone to anyone else's house, they
never have made a major mess. I have pitched in and started to pick up a few
stragglers laying around, but the kids are usually pretty good about picking
up. Then to, the homes they have been in are relatively neat and they follow
suit of the family that lives there. Most times the mom will say to leave
the stuff as there isn't much anyway.

When children come here, which is more often than the other way around, my
kids know they can have house rules as to how they want their things played
with. Not how to play exactly but how to handle things. It's their
belongings and they are entitled to not share if they don't want to. I don't
like when parents make their children share everything they have. My kids
want kids to have fun and come over, so they naturally want them to play
with stuff. If there are a few things they are hesitent about, we put them
away before the other children come over. If a child was doing something to
one of my chldrens toys that made them uncomfortable, I would have no
problem saying that so and so doesn't like when someone does that. Never had
it happen though. But when they were younger, we did put things away ahead
of time. Now the children don't mind. Of course their friends are respectful
of their things too.

So far my children and those visiting have played equally with the toys.
When they are finished, my kids start to clean up and usually the other
child will too. Sometimes the other mom will mention for the child to help
clean up. If it seems overwhelming and they want to move on to other things,
I will step in and take over. So far it's never been a major deal. If a
child came here and randomly took things apart without even being involved
with my children, I would step in and say something to the child. In a very
nice here's what we do here kind of way. So far I haven't run into any
problems.

Mary B





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Alan & Brenda Leonard

3/5/03 02:13:

> For example, the kids have a
> large bin of Playmobil that they play exclusively Lord of the Rings with,
> and another bin of just assorted Playmobil. We have kids come over who dump
> out both sets on the floor, pull all the hair off the characters, tear off
> their costumes, and then leave them mixed in a heap. My kids hate sorting
> out that kind of a mess, and so do I. They have them sorted the way they
> want them, and want to act things out with them -- not waste hours finding
> the right hair for the characters and all their little props.

I can't address all your clean up problems, but maybe the special toys need
to be put aside. Here, we have certain toys that are off-limits to other
kids. When Tim was littler, we used to put some boxes of them up or away
when guests came. Now, most of our usual guests just know that the legos
are not for sharing. That may sound cruel, since most kids love legos, but
if you move his knights and castle stuff at all, Tim completely melts down.
That's not fun for anyone, and most visitors have seen it at least once.

So we get out other cool stuff while they're here, instead. And some toys,
like the train set, seem to never get played with except when other kids are
here! That works, too.

brenda

[email protected]

I've asked kids to help clean up, but for reasons like "Could you put this
back up so the puppy doesn't get it" or "Could you put the game up so the
pieces don't get lost?" though usually my kids are anal about games
themselves. But asking someone to put something up because they're about to
go and do something they want to do even more is easy.

I think in the scenario presented, asking a kid who's about to go home to
clean up a house she's about to leave is just the wrong place and the wrong
time. She probably doesn't want to go home, and so being punished (if she
sees it that way) and threatened AND having to go home is a lot all at once.

A method we figured out with birthday parties in a small house was to move
the activities to another room every half an hour or so. At our house now,
we have more room, but in the little house, we'd do games in the living room,
while someone was setting up food on the patio, and then get the kids to go
out there. We'd re-stage the living room so that when the food was more mess
than current, we'd lure them away from there and pick it up while they
weren't right there. A good trashcan with a liner helps, but it's easier for
me to throw a cakey plate in the trash than to try to make someone else do
it. And NO, the value of the lesson isn't more important. It's a party.

Same with visits. I treat them like parties.

Sandra

Angela

I have some issues with other people's kids and messes in my house. I let
my kids choose what they allow other kids to play with, but having only two
children, our house is full of stuff that belongs to them and the stuff
lives in our living room or kitchen on our shelves (or on the floor if it's
in use). We don't have the kids keep all their stuff in their rooms like
some families have to, to keep stuff away from younger children. My kids
rarely play in their rooms because they like to be where dh and I are.

When young kids visit we try to put stuff we don't want to share out of
sight, but it just isn't possible to put everything out of sight. I swear,
we rarely have company without something getting broken. It is so
frustrating. We try to pick up everything off the floor so that things
don't get stepped on but it seems that something gets broken almost every
time.

It makes me feel badly when kids take out things that my kids don't want
them to play with and I have to tell them "sorry, but dd doesn't want to
share that." I feel like my kids don't want to share a lot of stuff, but I
can't say I blame them with the track record we have for guests breaking
things. I have even learned to put away a lot of stuff that I don't mind
kids *playing* with, because we have our toys somewhat organized and we all
get frustrated when our bins of stuff and games and puzzles are just dumped
out with no regard for them. It can take hours even days to put things back
the way we had them. My kids value their stuff and they don't understand it
when other kids don't treat their stuff with the same respect. It's
really a pain to have to spend half a day getting ready for guests but I
haven't found an easier way. Any ideas?

When it come to visiting other people's houses. If we create the mess, I
help the kids clean up. What I find overwhelming is to come into a house
where it is already a total disaster and then have my kids contribute to it.
Those days I often just leave the mess because I can't even see where to
begin, but I always feel guilty about it. I guess it might help to ask what
I could do to help.







Angela in Maine- <mailto:unschooling@...>
mailto:unschooling@...
<http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/>
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/

"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

>>> It's
really a pain to have to spend half a day getting ready for guests but I
haven't found an easier way. Any ideas?<<<

Perhaps just keep a box in *your* bedroom and just put all that they don't want to share in there temporarily until the guests leave. Even when I have adult friends over, if things are messier than I can deal with, I just gather everything up in large armfuls and dump them on my bed, then I just close the door.

>>>What I find overwhelming is to come into a house
where it is already a total disaster and then have my kids contribute to it.
Those days I often just leave the mess because I can't even see where to
begin, but I always feel guilty about it. I guess it might help to ask what
I could do to help.<<<

I wouldn't ask in that case. Depending on whose house it is and what the mess is made of, I'd either just leave, or I'd just ask my kids to help me pick up a handful of things as a token of friendship before leaving.

Most people who have a disaster, (and we know one family like this) understand that if they can't keep after it themselves they should not be asking my kids to do it for them. But we're talking about an extreme case here that is not just a case of clutter. I'm very flexible when it comes to a clean house. And this lady has more kids than I do and works outside the home, so I undertand it is difficult. But I'd venture to say there are some health hazards there, and thats putting it politely.

Kristen








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/5/03 2:24:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
unschooling@... writes:

> When it come to visiting other people's houses. If we create the mess, I
> help the kids clean up. What I find overwhelming is to come into a house
> where it is already a total disaster and then have my kids contribute to
> it.
> Those days I often just leave the mess because I can't even see where to
> begin, but I always feel guilty about it. I guess it might help to ask
> what
> I could do to help.
>


At those messy houses you would probably be more apt to encounter the Mom
that says "oh, don't worry about it" and really means it.
My house is messy it doesn't bother me. When company comes over they make
more of a mess but always have fun and usually tell the boys that they have
the coolest Mom. I would rather be thought of as fun and see my boys having
a terrific time. I am not sure why you would find it overwhelming if it
isn't your house.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

I find it overwhelming because I want to help, but I have no idea even where
to begin. It is easier to find places for things to go, if I (or my kids)
took them out and know where to put them back. It's a case of wanting to
help, but not knowing how without spending more hours than I have.

Angela in Maine


I would rather be thought of as fun and see my boys having
a terrific time. I am not sure why you would find it overwhelming if it
isn't your house.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Ah, the comforts of clutter!! :-D I'm so glad not to be the only one!! I
would be the mom who absolutely does not worry about cleanup after a play
date ~ first, because I want the focus to be on play and friendships, and
second, because my kids are always willing to clean with me after a playdate,
while we chat about the good time had by all. That said, I don't often let
strangers into my home unless I am assured the clutter won't shock them right
out of our friendship! Right now, I can count three distinguished, yet
unfinished, projects with lots of run-on between them. Hayden, 4, will help
pick up if I mention the potential loss of parts by leaving things unattended
in the living room. Hannah's just happy to do anything I do, she's more of a
cooperative cleaner :)

I subscribed to FlyLady (Finally Loving Yourself, Lady) but quickly
discontinued because I spent far more time reading the e-mail alerts than I
did applying the program. I like spending whole days in my jammies, without
the bed made, and shoeless :)

What I found that worked is a book called, Clearing Your Clutter with Feng
Shui, by Karen Kingston. When I feel a place in my life is *stuck* I
research the baguas (areas of the structure which translate into areas of
your life) and sure enough, I'll find a huge cluttered mess there. I'll
clean it out and viola! my life has improved. When I'm listless and without
energy, getting the chi flowing thru the house by clearing a bit of the
clutter really works ~ and not just for me, the kids sense it too! This
week, we're working on our Travel & Helpful Friends Bagua, as we prepare for
our family trip to CA. (okay, any excuse to get the living room
presentable!!)

diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule
of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
--Frederick Douglass


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**For example, the kids have a
large bin of Playmobil that they play exclusively Lord of the Rings with,
and another bin of just assorted Playmobil. We have kids come over who dump
out both sets on the floor, pull all the hair off the characters, tear off
their costumes, and then leave them mixed in a heap. My kids hate sorting
out that kind of a mess, and so do I. They have them sorted the way they
want them, and want to act things out with them -- not waste hours finding
the right hair for the characters and all their little props. **


Hi, Deb --

We also have two Playmobil containers and visitors who love to take the
people's hair off more than to do anything else. I sympathize!

I would recommend that you find a way to separate your two containers,
preferably keeping them in separate rooms.

I actually enjoy picking up toys more than most chores, and I'm very
fast with visually sorting, but I couldn't correctly sort the Playmobils
at your house, I simply wouldn't know which ones go in which bin. Your
guests aren't capable of doing this sorting without practice either. As
you have noted, it's quite a difficult job.

Good luck,
Betsy

**I think that if my friends' kids consistently made a huge mess for me and
*my* kids, we would either only visit there, or meet some place neutral.
What am I missing here?**

Natural variation in play styles? My friend has kids who definitely
strew FAR more toys per minute than my child does. I figure I have it a
lot easier than she does and I count my blessings. <g> Also, it's a
half-hour drive to her house, so if she comes here and I end up picking
up toys, it's still more convenient for me.

[email protected]

This one came to my E mail addy instead of the group here it is......

In a message dated 3/6/03 11:23:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:

> I think I just lost my previous post to the "I hit the wrong button
> gods." :-/
>
> >>If I constantly worry about the mess after company leaves or if
> they are going to offer to help or not then brood about how they left
> and didn't clean up, etc., then I totally mess up the experience.>>
>
> This awareness of staying *in the moment* helps me remain calm
> (usually) and joyful with my surroundings. When I'm in the moment I
> fix whatever is bothering me, be it a dirty plate on the couch or a
> jacket that needs hanging up or whatever. If I notice it, I tend to
> it and then it's over. When I'm in the moment I enjoy what is
> happening and try to keep my mind on the present moment and not in
> the past or future.
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]