Teach your baby to read
Heidi and Brent Ricks
Has anyone used or heard of others who have used the Teach Your Baby to
Read program as promoted by Glenn Doman? I have a friend whoo is
really into it. On the one hand it sounds perfect for unschoolers (in
that if the window is there, why not teach them to read really early adn
then you can totally step back and let them have at the world of the
written word) and on the other it flies in the face of so much that I
believe and have read in John Holt and Joseph Chilton Peirce and even
Rudolph Steiner (these guys seem to think that developmentally kids are
not ready in terms of brain development to take on reading before the
age of at least 7 and maybe not until 10+). Just wondering what the
group thinks of the idea of there being this window in which kids can
really learn reading very early with out much "teaching" (just showing
them the words and saying what it is). I followed some of the early
reading posts and it sounds like this is more or less how some of the
very early readers did it (the grandfather with the 2nd grade education
writing the words in his stories for the child to see).
Thanks for the earlier posts in relation to my latest anxiety about my
10yo still not reading. It was so helpful to hear once again relax,
trust and get out of her way! It is so hard to keep the faith sometimes
and your gentle reminders were just what I needed. I may nbeed them
again in a few months when I have another bout of doubt!
Heidi R
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Read program as promoted by Glenn Doman? I have a friend whoo is
really into it. On the one hand it sounds perfect for unschoolers (in
that if the window is there, why not teach them to read really early adn
then you can totally step back and let them have at the world of the
written word) and on the other it flies in the face of so much that I
believe and have read in John Holt and Joseph Chilton Peirce and even
Rudolph Steiner (these guys seem to think that developmentally kids are
not ready in terms of brain development to take on reading before the
age of at least 7 and maybe not until 10+). Just wondering what the
group thinks of the idea of there being this window in which kids can
really learn reading very early with out much "teaching" (just showing
them the words and saying what it is). I followed some of the early
reading posts and it sounds like this is more or less how some of the
very early readers did it (the grandfather with the 2nd grade education
writing the words in his stories for the child to see).
Thanks for the earlier posts in relation to my latest anxiety about my
10yo still not reading. It was so helpful to hear once again relax,
trust and get out of her way! It is so hard to keep the faith sometimes
and your gentle reminders were just what I needed. I may nbeed them
again in a few months when I have another bout of doubt!
Heidi R
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elissa kroeger <[email protected]>
Hi! I know, I'm new and I've got a story about everything:) But my
mom used that program on my sister and me. I remember growing up in a
house where everything had a lable on it. The ironing board
said "ironing board" the refrigerator said "refrigerator" and so on.
My mom, who has a masters in education and one in library science and
a PhD in Systems analysis, did not want us to be ruined by the school
system so she made sure we were reading before we got there. I do not
ever remember learning to read. Both my sister and I are bibliophiles
to the max. I got in trouble when the Kindergarten teacher took us to
the library and I took out The Black Stallion. She made me read the
first page out loud in front of everyone. So I did. So... I can tell
you that the program does work ...for some people.
I do not use the same method with my children. I do have large
print things around for them to look at and we read out loud a lot,
and write together if they want to but I don't have to save them from
being ruined in public school so I do not push it at all. I have one
son who learned to read at 9, and one who is getting it at 10. My
mom, who does agree with homeschooling in general and unschooling in
particular (she gets on my case if I fall into structure traps),
cannot see why I do not just do it the way she did. I would say that
if you do it like a game and they enjoy it and you don't mind the
idea of them making fun of you when they are grown up ( my sister and
I do that to our mom ) then go for it. Just don't make it a chore for
them or you!!
-Elissa
mom used that program on my sister and me. I remember growing up in a
house where everything had a lable on it. The ironing board
said "ironing board" the refrigerator said "refrigerator" and so on.
My mom, who has a masters in education and one in library science and
a PhD in Systems analysis, did not want us to be ruined by the school
system so she made sure we were reading before we got there. I do not
ever remember learning to read. Both my sister and I are bibliophiles
to the max. I got in trouble when the Kindergarten teacher took us to
the library and I took out The Black Stallion. She made me read the
first page out loud in front of everyone. So I did. So... I can tell
you that the program does work ...for some people.
I do not use the same method with my children. I do have large
print things around for them to look at and we read out loud a lot,
and write together if they want to but I don't have to save them from
being ruined in public school so I do not push it at all. I have one
son who learned to read at 9, and one who is getting it at 10. My
mom, who does agree with homeschooling in general and unschooling in
particular (she gets on my case if I fall into structure traps),
cannot see why I do not just do it the way she did. I would say that
if you do it like a game and they enjoy it and you don't mind the
idea of them making fun of you when they are grown up ( my sister and
I do that to our mom ) then go for it. Just don't make it a chore for
them or you!!
-Elissa
zenmomma *
>>Just wondering what the group thinks of the idea of there being thisIf they can learn with gentle, playful, loving one on one contact with a
>>window in which kids can really learn reading very early with out much
>>"teaching" (just showing them the words and saying what it is).>>
reading adult, why pop in a video to hurry things along? There's no benefit
to having a baby focus on reading IMHO.
Life is good.
~Mary
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Alan & Brenda Leonard
3/1/03 19:39:
involves "teach them to read". Those just sound contradictary to me.
If the point of unschooling is living and learning, when we're ready to do
so, then why would an adult need to teach a child to read before they have
any say so in doing such a thing?
They do learn to read. Wonderfully, naturally, happily.
brenda
> On the one hand it sounds perfect for unschoolers (inI have a hard time seeing anything as "perfect for unschoolers" that
> that if the window is there, why not teach them to read really early adn
> then you can totally step back and let them have at the world of the
> written word) and on the other it flies in the face of so much that I
> believe and have read in John Holt and Joseph Chilton Peirce and even
> Rudolph Steiner (these guys seem to think that developmentally kids are
> not ready in terms of brain development to take on reading before the
> age of at least 7 and maybe not until 10+).
involves "teach them to read". Those just sound contradictary to me.
If the point of unschooling is living and learning, when we're ready to do
so, then why would an adult need to teach a child to read before they have
any say so in doing such a thing?
They do learn to read. Wonderfully, naturally, happily.
brenda
Fetteroll
on 3/1/03 9:52 AM, Heidi and Brent Ricks at rickshei@... wrote:
if he or she could read?
This society emphasizes the connection between learning and reading way too
much. If you eliminate school, then there's little reason for young children
to read. (Unless they want to, of course.)
What we need more than early readers, is an appreciation of how children
learn in *other* ways and how, especially, young children learn. Fantasy
play, hands on, full body movements are all things that little kids are
generally really good at that adults are generally less good at. But we tend
to judge the quality of children's learning by how well they are doing what
adults do well. If we used the same logic and judged adults by how well they
were using childlike learning tools, they'd all be sent off for remedial
work in play ;-)
Joyce
> Just wondering what theWhat would be the advantage to the child? How would a 3 yo be a better 3 yo
> group thinks of the idea of there being this window in which kids can
> really learn reading very early with out much "teaching" (just showing
> them the words and saying what it is).
if he or she could read?
> why not teach them to read really early adnWhat is a very young child missing by not reading?
> then you can totally step back and let them have at the world of the
> written word)
This society emphasizes the connection between learning and reading way too
much. If you eliminate school, then there's little reason for young children
to read. (Unless they want to, of course.)
What we need more than early readers, is an appreciation of how children
learn in *other* ways and how, especially, young children learn. Fantasy
play, hands on, full body movements are all things that little kids are
generally really good at that adults are generally less good at. But we tend
to judge the quality of children's learning by how well they are doing what
adults do well. If we used the same logic and judged adults by how well they
were using childlike learning tools, they'd all be sent off for remedial
work in play ;-)
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/1/03 2:00:08 PM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< > why not teach them to read really early adn
You can't teach a child before he's ready to get it any more than you can
teach an eight month old to walk if his natural walking-time is going to be
twelve or fourteen months.
We could write here 'Why not teach him to walk really early and then you can
totally step back and not have to carry him around anymore"?
But moms SHOULD carry their kids around, even after they can walk. And they
SHOULD talk to their kids and show them pictures and read to them even after
they can read, no matter how old they are when they learn to read.
There is vastly more information outside of books than inside. Why settle
for a book when the real world is at hand? Why settle for a book describing
the Mississippi river in words when you can see video of journeys up and down
the Mississippi, of cities on it, of River Boats, and of the fish and plants
in the river, and of how it freezes in Minneapolis, and... some things
aren't in books.
Sandra
<< > why not teach them to read really early adn
> then you can totally step back and let them have at the world of theA child can't "be taught" to read before he or she is able to read. Period.
> written word) >>
You can't teach a child before he's ready to get it any more than you can
teach an eight month old to walk if his natural walking-time is going to be
twelve or fourteen months.
We could write here 'Why not teach him to walk really early and then you can
totally step back and not have to carry him around anymore"?
But moms SHOULD carry their kids around, even after they can walk. And they
SHOULD talk to their kids and show them pictures and read to them even after
they can read, no matter how old they are when they learn to read.
There is vastly more information outside of books than inside. Why settle
for a book when the real world is at hand? Why settle for a book describing
the Mississippi river in words when you can see video of journeys up and down
the Mississippi, of cities on it, of River Boats, and of the fish and plants
in the river, and of how it freezes in Minneapolis, and... some things
aren't in books.
Sandra
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
I'd like to add a few comments to Sandra's: Children can be taught
to recognize words, but the comprehension needed to understand the
words is usually not developed in very young children. Comprehension
skills are built as a child grows and develops, through experiences
and interaction with people and his environment.
The word "hot" can be recognized by a young child, but unless the
child has an understanding of what "hot" is or means, the recognition
is just a parrot-like ability. If a child recognizes a word, can
they recognize and know it outside the context in which it was
learned? A child may be able to recognize a string of words in a
sentence, and *read* them aloud, but still have no comprehension of
the complete thought or meaning of those words.
Recognizing words and understanding the meaning of the words are two
different things.
Debbie
> A child can't "be taught" to read before he or she is able toread. Period.
I'd like to add a few comments to Sandra's: Children can be taught
to recognize words, but the comprehension needed to understand the
words is usually not developed in very young children. Comprehension
skills are built as a child grows and develops, through experiences
and interaction with people and his environment.
The word "hot" can be recognized by a young child, but unless the
child has an understanding of what "hot" is or means, the recognition
is just a parrot-like ability. If a child recognizes a word, can
they recognize and know it outside the context in which it was
learned? A child may be able to recognize a string of words in a
sentence, and *read* them aloud, but still have no comprehension of
the complete thought or meaning of those words.
Recognizing words and understanding the meaning of the words are two
different things.
Debbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/3/03 10:02:18 AM, Debbies4@... writes:
<< I'd like to add a few comments to Sandra's: Children can be taught
to recognize words, but the comprehension needed to understand the
words is usually not developed in very young children. >>
There's that and also the problem of "reading" a few selected words being
transferred to reading any and all words.
Different children decode language different ways, and until they come to the
point where they are (as an individual intellect) ready to do that decoding,
whatever method the parent chooses might be the entirely wrong thing, and it
could end up interfering with their child's own personal understanding.
That probably sounds stupid to newer homeschoolers, or to someone who hasn't
yet really seen a child grasp something difficult and multi-facetted.
For a tiny analogy, someone told about shoe-tying in something I read last
night (so either on this list, or the two others I'm on, or at
www.unschooling.com, I don't know where). The kid tried to learn, the
parents tried to teach, then there was a period of velcro, and without the
parents knowing, the child learned to tie her next pair of laced shoes. The
toddler brother knew she could tie them, but the parents didn't until they
saw them tied!
Tying shoes requires a few things. The ability to remember a series of
motions, the fine-motor coordination to hold the laces between various
combinations of fingers and still manipulate them, the strength to do all
that, the spatial reasoning to figure out how long a loop to stick where and
how hard to pull to keep from pulling the whole loop through, or from having
a piece hanging down to trip on.
Some kids cannot do all those things.
Some kids happen to be shown a series of tricks or motions or a little rhyme
just at the time when they ARE capable of remembering. Some find the desire
to tie a bow even when they themselves have velcro or elastic pull-on shoes,
and they'll ask or watch and figure it out.
Same with reading, but there are vastly more components.
You can frustrate a child to tears by trying to "teach" her to tie shoes
before she physically or mentally CAN tie shoes. You can make a child feel
stupid by pressing her to the failure point. You can make a child feel a
burden if you insist on tie-up shoes for a child who can't tie her own, and
then you roughly and grumpily tie her shoes for her every day (or several
times a day) indicating verbally or non-verbally that you cannot understand
why she can't learn to tie her own.
That's what parents risk doing when they "teach reading."
If you wait until the child is asking and WANTS to read, and answer just
single little questions, but continue being willing to read to her (and to
tie her shoes when you're in a hurry or when she's hungry or tired), you
build something vastly more important than her skills. You build create a
relationship full of trust and love and peace and patience.
Without that relationship, unschooling and learning won't be as joyous as
they could be, and if you're not going to have joy in your relationship with
your child, what's the point of having them home?
Radical, maybe, but workable too.
Sandra
<< I'd like to add a few comments to Sandra's: Children can be taught
to recognize words, but the comprehension needed to understand the
words is usually not developed in very young children. >>
There's that and also the problem of "reading" a few selected words being
transferred to reading any and all words.
Different children decode language different ways, and until they come to the
point where they are (as an individual intellect) ready to do that decoding,
whatever method the parent chooses might be the entirely wrong thing, and it
could end up interfering with their child's own personal understanding.
That probably sounds stupid to newer homeschoolers, or to someone who hasn't
yet really seen a child grasp something difficult and multi-facetted.
For a tiny analogy, someone told about shoe-tying in something I read last
night (so either on this list, or the two others I'm on, or at
www.unschooling.com, I don't know where). The kid tried to learn, the
parents tried to teach, then there was a period of velcro, and without the
parents knowing, the child learned to tie her next pair of laced shoes. The
toddler brother knew she could tie them, but the parents didn't until they
saw them tied!
Tying shoes requires a few things. The ability to remember a series of
motions, the fine-motor coordination to hold the laces between various
combinations of fingers and still manipulate them, the strength to do all
that, the spatial reasoning to figure out how long a loop to stick where and
how hard to pull to keep from pulling the whole loop through, or from having
a piece hanging down to trip on.
Some kids cannot do all those things.
Some kids happen to be shown a series of tricks or motions or a little rhyme
just at the time when they ARE capable of remembering. Some find the desire
to tie a bow even when they themselves have velcro or elastic pull-on shoes,
and they'll ask or watch and figure it out.
Same with reading, but there are vastly more components.
You can frustrate a child to tears by trying to "teach" her to tie shoes
before she physically or mentally CAN tie shoes. You can make a child feel
stupid by pressing her to the failure point. You can make a child feel a
burden if you insist on tie-up shoes for a child who can't tie her own, and
then you roughly and grumpily tie her shoes for her every day (or several
times a day) indicating verbally or non-verbally that you cannot understand
why she can't learn to tie her own.
That's what parents risk doing when they "teach reading."
If you wait until the child is asking and WANTS to read, and answer just
single little questions, but continue being willing to read to her (and to
tie her shoes when you're in a hurry or when she's hungry or tired), you
build something vastly more important than her skills. You build create a
relationship full of trust and love and peace and patience.
Without that relationship, unschooling and learning won't be as joyous as
they could be, and if you're not going to have joy in your relationship with
your child, what's the point of having them home?
Radical, maybe, but workable too.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3-3-2003 10:46:44 AM Mountain Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
with my daughter is far more rewarding than the struggles it would have
required for her to read (aka decode) last year... I'm a great mom and she's
a reader ~ on her own schedule!
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule
of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
--Frederick Douglass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If you wait until the child is asking and WANTS to read, and answer justThanks for reminding me why it is I'm here :) Having an awesome relationship
> single little questions, but continue being willing to read to her (and to
> tie her shoes when you're in a hurry or when she's hungry or tired), you
> build something vastly more important than her skills. You build create a
> relationship full of trust and love and peace and patience.
>
with my daughter is far more rewarding than the struggles it would have
required for her to read (aka decode) last year... I'm a great mom and she's
a reader ~ on her own schedule!
diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule
of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
--Frederick Douglass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>If you wait until the child is asking and WANTS to read, and answer justAhhh....patience. That's been the key for me in understanding Conor (13).
>>single little questions, but continue being willing to read to her (and to
>>tie her shoes when you're in a hurry or when she's hungry or tired), you
>>build something vastly more important than her skills. You build create a
>>relationship full of trust and love and peace and patience.>>
Everything he has learned has so obviously been on his own schedule and no
one elses. Jon and I have often wondred how he can possibly learn certain
things without ever practicing first (like riding a bike) but he does.
And it's not that he can just *do* things. He tried learning to ride a
2-wheeler bike at 5/6 at my suggestion. Not a disaster, but also did not
happen. We left it completely alone for a year. One day he came to me and
said "okay I've thought about it enough now, I'm going to go teach myself
the 2-wheeler." About 15 minutes later he called me out to watch him ride
away. He swears that he learns by watching and thinking, even physical
things. I believe him!
Right now I'm practicing patience (waiting to exhale?) about his writing. Or
should I say lack of writing? Although he's been doing some chatting online
(wonderful!) lately, he still finds it almost painful to try to write with
pen in hand. He has always avoided it like the plague. Not a problem, I am
his joyful scribe when necessary, but I'm thinking it will work itself out
like other roadblocks he has encountered.
We got a form to fill out last week so he could do some volunteer work. I
offered to fill it out for him, he said "no, I can do it once we get home."
Huh?! It's not due till tomorrow. I can't wait to see if it works like the
bike riding and he just fills the form out. Of course if it doesn't, all is
still well. I'll happily fill it out and drive him down to volunteer. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
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Pamela Sorooshian
There are potential risks in too-early reading instruction. We don't
really understand the brain's development well enough to play around
with it like that. What might be okay for one baby might be damaging
(neurologically) to another. It is thought that the massive increase in
reading disabilities among American schoolchildren might be a direct
result of pushing down the reading curriculum into early grades,
kindergarten, and preschool.
There are clearly some advantages to later reading - after years of
close observation it is very obvious to me that kids who began reading
for themselves a bit later than other kids have superior listening
skills and a better sense of the many other ways to take in information.
I think that for some people the baby early-reading stuff gives them a
way to interact with their babies (flashcards, etc.) - and that they
just kind of feel the need for something structured for some reason.
But tying that to reading instruction is a bad idea, imo, because one
thing we do know is that we adults can REALLY mess up a child's natural
desire and ability to read. Why risk it?
If you are interested in the opposite point of view - that we are all
"degeniusing" our kids by not exposing them to systematic formal
learning processes before the age of 3, have a look at this
homeschooling-related website:
<http://www.geocities.com/forbidden_area/early.html>
One thing not addressed there is another reason I also think it is
risky to engage in the early learning stuff - that is because it
promotes the idea of our babies as products that we are developing. It
is pretty difficult in some communities to avoid buying into that, to
some degree, and "building better babies" is a bad start.
-pam
On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 09:00 AM, myfunny4 <Debbies4@...>
wrote:
really understand the brain's development well enough to play around
with it like that. What might be okay for one baby might be damaging
(neurologically) to another. It is thought that the massive increase in
reading disabilities among American schoolchildren might be a direct
result of pushing down the reading curriculum into early grades,
kindergarten, and preschool.
There are clearly some advantages to later reading - after years of
close observation it is very obvious to me that kids who began reading
for themselves a bit later than other kids have superior listening
skills and a better sense of the many other ways to take in information.
I think that for some people the baby early-reading stuff gives them a
way to interact with their babies (flashcards, etc.) - and that they
just kind of feel the need for something structured for some reason.
But tying that to reading instruction is a bad idea, imo, because one
thing we do know is that we adults can REALLY mess up a child's natural
desire and ability to read. Why risk it?
If you are interested in the opposite point of view - that we are all
"degeniusing" our kids by not exposing them to systematic formal
learning processes before the age of 3, have a look at this
homeschooling-related website:
<http://www.geocities.com/forbidden_area/early.html>
One thing not addressed there is another reason I also think it is
risky to engage in the early learning stuff - that is because it
promotes the idea of our babies as products that we are developing. It
is pretty difficult in some communities to avoid buying into that, to
some degree, and "building better babies" is a bad start.
-pam
On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 09:00 AM, myfunny4 <Debbies4@...>
wrote:
> Recognizing words and understanding the meaning of the words are two
> different things.
Pamela Sorooshian
Me too, these days. I never was any good at penmanship (got an "N" -
needs to improve - pretty much every report card).
I got WAY better suddenly, at about 35 years old - it just clicked and
my handwriting got nice and even and pretty and smooth and it was easy
to write. (too bad that happened AFTER all those years of college and
grad school).
Now it is harder for me to write because it just hurts my hands - which
are much more used to typing on a keyboard than holding a pen.
So I have a cute little iBook - it fits in a bag that I use as a purse
- and I don't use pen or pencil much anymore. But I "write" a lot!!!
-pam
needs to improve - pretty much every report card).
I got WAY better suddenly, at about 35 years old - it just clicked and
my handwriting got nice and even and pretty and smooth and it was easy
to write. (too bad that happened AFTER all those years of college and
grad school).
Now it is harder for me to write because it just hurts my hands - which
are much more used to typing on a keyboard than holding a pen.
So I have a cute little iBook - it fits in a bag that I use as a purse
- and I don't use pen or pencil much anymore. But I "write" a lot!!!
-pam
On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 10:51 AM, zenmomma * wrote:
> he still finds it almost painful to try to write with
> pen in hand.
Rachel Ann
WAHHHHHH
My handwriting still is the pits. And I'm 45. You still think I have time to
click?
My handwriting story goes like this:
In first grade we were obliged to write our name and address until such a
time as the teacher, tyrant that she was, deemed our handwriting (printing
actually) sufficient. I was with the crowd who didn't get it right the
first few times. I was with the crowd who didn't get it right after 10 or 15
times. I was with the crowd that was still writing it in January, March,
and finally I was with just my self, writing the same lines, having my paper
held up and the teacher showing it off with a BIG FAT F, as obsolutely
horrible. Talk about shame and embarrassment!
If I had been less of a stubborn girl, perhaps she would have reined me in;
but I gave as much as she did, and in the end I know my handwriting stunk.
All my letters were practiacally engraved into the desk, I wrote so hard and
black. And of course my handwriting didn't get any better.
Finally, when I was in fifth or sixth grade my grandmother offered my sister
and I a gift if we could get an A in handwriting. My sister always had nice
handwriting. I was getting D's or worse. But I worked hard, and got a B. I
was so heartbroken. Worse still, my sister got an A, but my grandmother
didn't come through on her part of the bargin.
What is with adults anyway?
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Monday, March 03, 2003 14:14:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Teach your baby to read
Me too, these days. I never was any good at penmanship (got an "N" -
needs to improve - pretty much every report card).
I got WAY better suddenly, at about 35 years old - it just clicked and
my handwriting got nice and even and pretty and smooth and it was easy
to write. (too bad that happened AFTER all those years of college and
grad school).
Now it is harder for me to write because it just hurts my hands - which
are much more used to typing on a keyboard than holding a pen.
So I have a cute little iBook - it fits in a bag that I use as a purse
- and I don't use pen or pencil much anymore. But I "write" a lot!!!
-pam
My handwriting still is the pits. And I'm 45. You still think I have time to
click?
My handwriting story goes like this:
In first grade we were obliged to write our name and address until such a
time as the teacher, tyrant that she was, deemed our handwriting (printing
actually) sufficient. I was with the crowd who didn't get it right the
first few times. I was with the crowd who didn't get it right after 10 or 15
times. I was with the crowd that was still writing it in January, March,
and finally I was with just my self, writing the same lines, having my paper
held up and the teacher showing it off with a BIG FAT F, as obsolutely
horrible. Talk about shame and embarrassment!
If I had been less of a stubborn girl, perhaps she would have reined me in;
but I gave as much as she did, and in the end I know my handwriting stunk.
All my letters were practiacally engraved into the desk, I wrote so hard and
black. And of course my handwriting didn't get any better.
Finally, when I was in fifth or sixth grade my grandmother offered my sister
and I a gift if we could get an A in handwriting. My sister always had nice
handwriting. I was getting D's or worse. But I worked hard, and got a B. I
was so heartbroken. Worse still, my sister got an A, but my grandmother
didn't come through on her part of the bargin.
What is with adults anyway?
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Monday, March 03, 2003 14:14:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Teach your baby to read
Me too, these days. I never was any good at penmanship (got an "N" -
needs to improve - pretty much every report card).
I got WAY better suddenly, at about 35 years old - it just clicked and
my handwriting got nice and even and pretty and smooth and it was easy
to write. (too bad that happened AFTER all those years of college and
grad school).
Now it is harder for me to write because it just hurts my hands - which
are much more used to typing on a keyboard than holding a pen.
So I have a cute little iBook - it fits in a bag that I use as a purse
- and I don't use pen or pencil much anymore. But I "write" a lot!!!
-pam
On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 10:51 AM, zenmomma * wrote:
> he still finds it almost painful to try to write with
> pen in hand.
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nellebelle
If this were true
snip>>>>"the idea of there being this window in which kids can
really learn reading very early with out much "teaching" (just showing
them the words and saying what it is">>>
then the majority of young children in America would be reading on their
own. We are surrounded by words and kids see them and hear them read all
the time. Signs, picture books, labels on food, movie titles, etc. Why
aren't they all reading? Because most of them aren't ready. Therefore, I
would suggest there is not a window for very early reading.
Mary Ellen
snip>>>>"the idea of there being this window in which kids can
really learn reading very early with out much "teaching" (just showing
them the words and saying what it is">>>
then the majority of young children in America would be reading on their
own. We are surrounded by words and kids see them and hear them read all
the time. Signs, picture books, labels on food, movie titles, etc. Why
aren't they all reading? Because most of them aren't ready. Therefore, I
would suggest there is not a window for very early reading.
Mary Ellen
Stephanie Elms
> And it's not that he can just *do* things. He tried learningWow! This sounds so much like Jason, my 6 yo. I have realized lately that his
> to ride a
> 2-wheeler bike at 5/6 at my suggestion. Not a disaster, but
> also did not
> happen. We left it completely alone for a year. One day he
> came to me and
> said "okay I've thought about it enough now, I'm going to go
> teach myself
> the 2-wheeler." About 15 minutes later he called me out to
> watch him ride
> away. He swears that he learns by watching and thinking, even
> physical
> things. I believe him!
learning style is watching others. When he gets a new computer game, he wants me
to play it first (or at least do the hard parts). He tends to wait until he is
good and ready to do something, then does it overnight. I have to keep reminding
myself of this sometimes. He hasn't let me down yet!
It is one of the reasons that I told my dad that I would not make him "practice"
writing (my dad thinks that he should practice writing everyday). Jason hates writing.
He has no reason or desire to write at this point and I know that when he does he
will be able to. The funny thing is that my dad was equating writing with communicating
and kept saying that Jason needed to be able to communicate well. Jason has no problem in
communicating (he speaks very well and has a great vocabulary, an amazing memory and a
canny way of using the appropriate word). I brought up how most folks (especially in the
business world) use the computer and then reminded my dad that he has the world's worst
handwriting and that it has never held him back LOL! My dad's biggest point was that he
needed to be taught the discipline of working at something and improving at it. I tried
to counter that he is learning this already naturally (mostly through his computer games)
and that it was not something that I needed to teach. Not sure he got the point though. ;o)
Stephanie E.
Backstrom kelli
Hi! I am new to this list but had to chime in here. My ten year old and I struggled (she is my first of three) with riding a bike. I was so hung up on the "norms" and watching all of the other kids in the neighborhood ride away on their bikes. I gave up trying to teach her at age 8 and put the bike away. Last summer she decided it was time to bring the bike out and learn. She taught herself and is enjoying the bike like crazy now. I cant believe what I learn from her everyday. If only I had known this earlier, the struggles I could have prevented. I feel so badly for my first child because the other children benefit so much from the mistakes I make with the first! Kelli
Stephanie Elms <stephanie.elms@...> wrote:> And it's not that he can just *do* things. He tried learning
learning style is watching others. When he gets a new computer game, he wants me
to play it first (or at least do the hard parts). He tends to wait until he is
good and ready to do something, then does it overnight. I have to keep reminding
myself of this sometimes. He hasn't let me down yet!
It is one of the reasons that I told my dad that I would not make him "practice"
writing (my dad thinks that he should practice writing everyday). Jason hates writing.
He has no reason or desire to write at this point and I know that when he does he
will be able to. The funny thing is that my dad was equating writing with communicating
and kept saying that Jason needed to be able to communicate well. Jason has no problem in
communicating (he speaks very well and has a great vocabulary, an amazing memory and a
canny way of using the appropriate word). I brought up how most folks (especially in the
business world) use the computer and then reminded my dad that he has the world's worst
handwriting and that it has never held him back LOL! My dad's biggest point was that he
needed to be taught the discipline of working at something and improving at it. I tried
to counter that he is learning this already naturally (mostly through his computer games)
and that it was not something that I needed to teach. Not sure he got the point though. ;o)
Stephanie E.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms <stephanie.elms@...> wrote:> And it's not that he can just *do* things. He tried learning
> to ride aWow! This sounds so much like Jason, my 6 yo. I have realized lately that his
> 2-wheeler bike at 5/6 at my suggestion. Not a disaster, but
> also did not
> happen. We left it completely alone for a year. One day he
> came to me and
> said "okay I've thought about it enough now, I'm going to go
> teach myself
> the 2-wheeler." About 15 minutes later he called me out to
> watch him ride
> away. He swears that he learns by watching and thinking, even
> physical
> things. I believe him!
learning style is watching others. When he gets a new computer game, he wants me
to play it first (or at least do the hard parts). He tends to wait until he is
good and ready to do something, then does it overnight. I have to keep reminding
myself of this sometimes. He hasn't let me down yet!
It is one of the reasons that I told my dad that I would not make him "practice"
writing (my dad thinks that he should practice writing everyday). Jason hates writing.
He has no reason or desire to write at this point and I know that when he does he
will be able to. The funny thing is that my dad was equating writing with communicating
and kept saying that Jason needed to be able to communicate well. Jason has no problem in
communicating (he speaks very well and has a great vocabulary, an amazing memory and a
canny way of using the appropriate word). I brought up how most folks (especially in the
business world) use the computer and then reminded my dad that he has the world's worst
handwriting and that it has never held him back LOL! My dad's biggest point was that he
needed to be taught the discipline of working at something and improving at it. I tried
to counter that he is learning this already naturally (mostly through his computer games)
and that it was not something that I needed to teach. Not sure he got the point though. ;o)
Stephanie E.
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
Isn't it funny. Before I had kids, I thought that all kids learned to ride
a bike around age 5. My dd's are so intimidated by bike riding. They
haven't learned how yet at 6 and 8. It definitely surprised me having
learnd to ride at age 4. (my brothers put me on a bike and pushed me down a
hill- not a great way to learn!) Anway, my 8 yo recently said she can't
wait still spring so she can learn to ride her bike. Maybe this will be the
year...maybe not.
Angela in Maine- mailto:unschooling@...
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a bike around age 5. My dd's are so intimidated by bike riding. They
haven't learned how yet at 6 and 8. It definitely surprised me having
learnd to ride at age 4. (my brothers put me on a bike and pushed me down a
hill- not a great way to learn!) Anway, my 8 yo recently said she can't
wait still spring so she can learn to ride her bike. Maybe this will be the
year...maybe not.
Angela in Maine- mailto:unschooling@...
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**My dad's biggest point was that he
needed to be taught the discipline of working at something and improving
at it. **
re: handwriting
I know that you know this, but you might want to tell your dad that
"working" at something *before being developmentally ready and having
the appropriate capability* can lead to enormous frustration, NO
progress, and long-lasting mental blocks. It really doesn't teach the
rewards of perseverance.
Betsy
needed to be taught the discipline of working at something and improving
at it. **
re: handwriting
I know that you know this, but you might want to tell your dad that
"working" at something *before being developmentally ready and having
the appropriate capability* can lead to enormous frustration, NO
progress, and long-lasting mental blocks. It really doesn't teach the
rewards of perseverance.
Betsy
Angela
Shyrley,
I love to bike too. I was just getting into mountain bike racing when I got
pregnant with child #1. I can't wait until my kids can go riding with me.
What fun we'll have!!
Angela in Maine- mailto:unschooling@...
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson
Shyrley the mad cyclist
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I love to bike too. I was just getting into mountain bike racing when I got
pregnant with child #1. I can't wait until my kids can go riding with me.
What fun we'll have!!
Angela in Maine- mailto:unschooling@...
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson
Shyrley the mad cyclist
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
Angela wrote:
Just bought Heather a proper bike (as opposed too Crappy Bikes R Us one). Can't wait till she's strong enough to come on all day rides with me. I've been teaching her road safety in the neighbourhood.
She's still a bit nervous and tends to swerve in towards the kerb when she hears a car. Unfortunately our neighbourhood isa dead end. the only way in and out is the 6 lane super-fast Rt 7 with
sub-standard width lanes. There are, of course, no sidewalks either....
I cycle up and down it reguarly but I don't want to take a 10 yo out on it.
Anyhow, thats a problem for next week. This weeks task is finding a cycle helemt that will fit on her head with her dreadlocks. VA law states people under 14 must wear a lid. Didn't have too back home.
Shyrley the mad cyclist
> Isn't it funny. Before I had kids, I thought that all kids learned to rideThey ride when they are ready. My daughter learned at 5, my middle one at 6 and number 3 who will be 8 this year thinks bike's are stupid.
> a bike around age 5. My dd's are so intimidated by bike riding. They
> haven't learned how yet at 6 and 8. It definitely surprised me having
> learnd to ride at age 4. (my brothers put me on a bike and pushed me down a
> hill- not a great way to learn!) Anway, my 8 yo recently said she can't
> wait still spring so she can learn to ride her bike. Maybe this will be the
> year...maybe not.
>
Just bought Heather a proper bike (as opposed too Crappy Bikes R Us one). Can't wait till she's strong enough to come on all day rides with me. I've been teaching her road safety in the neighbourhood.
She's still a bit nervous and tends to swerve in towards the kerb when she hears a car. Unfortunately our neighbourhood isa dead end. the only way in and out is the 6 lane super-fast Rt 7 with
sub-standard width lanes. There are, of course, no sidewalks either....
I cycle up and down it reguarly but I don't want to take a 10 yo out on it.
Anyhow, thats a problem for next week. This weeks task is finding a cycle helemt that will fit on her head with her dreadlocks. VA law states people under 14 must wear a lid. Didn't have too back home.
Shyrley the mad cyclist
Shyrley
Angela wrote:
kids are coming with me. Then I have to get out the polluto-mobile.
I have a shiny new bike trailer for my groceries too :-)
Shyrley
>Well, I've always cycled. It's my main form of transport for anything under 5miles durig the week (max leaving kids alone time is 1 hour) and 20 miles at the weekend (DH looks after them). Unless the
> Shyrley,
> I love to bike too. I was just getting into mountain bike racing when I got
> pregnant with child #1. I can't wait until my kids can go riding with me.
> What fun we'll have!!
>
> Angela in Maine- mailto:unschooling@...
> http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
kids are coming with me. Then I have to get out the polluto-mobile.
I have a shiny new bike trailer for my groceries too :-)
Shyrley
Stephanie Elms
> **My dad's biggest point was that heYeah. We talked about this. My dad just really has this thing about how school
> needed to be taught the discipline of working at something
> and improving
> at it. **
>
> re: handwriting
>
> I know that you know this, but you might want to tell your dad that
> "working" at something *before being developmentally ready and having
> the appropriate capability* can lead to enormous frustration, NO
> progress, and long-lasting mental blocks. It really doesn't teach the
> rewards of perseverance.
taught him discipline. He is a very disciplined guy (retired air force reserves)
and was a perpetual student...worked his way through his electrical engineering
degree, went back and got his industrial engineering masters, almost got his PhD
(finished the class work, but not the dissertation). Later got his CPA. He has told
me that he can see how smart Jason is and has no doubt that he will learn things
easily that interest him. But he is concerned because he sees that there are certain
things (like writing and math drills) that are not "fun" but are necessary. I tried
to explain that if they are necessary then Jason will see a need to learn them when
he needs them. He just does not see it and it bothers him that I do not "make" Jason
do things (not just school work...he thinks that I let him "get away" with a lot of things).
I just realized the other day that part of the problem is that my dad has no idea what I am
doing as far as "school". He asked Jason what he was studying, places he had gone etc
and Jason did not understand what he wanted to know (since we do not "do" school). I have
decided to send a monthly (or so) email to both my parents and my ILs (who are very accepting of
what we are doing so far) detailing all the great things that Jason has been learning and
doing (books we are reading, his current interests, some of the experiments he loves to do etc).
I figure that it should not be too hard as it is just *so* cool all the neat stuff he is into.
And it will probably put my dad's fears to rest. He asks me what we are doing when we talk, but
often I can't think of any specific thing off the top of my head (mainly because we are just
living life, not doing school!).
Stephanie E.
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/5/03 12:20:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stephanie.elms@... writes:
parents dearly and wish they were here to enjoy their grandchildren. My boys
will never know what it is like to have grandparents. But I have no one
asking questions or challenging what I do or why. And Jackson and I are both
so insinc with this lifestyle. Both my parents died before my oldest was 2
years old. And Jackson's mother died before I met him. His dad is not an
involved person. Wasn't as a father and isn't as a grandfather. We live in
North Carolina. The rest of my family is in Maine and Jackson's is in South
Dakota.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stephanie.elms@... writes:
> I just realized the other day that part of the problem is that my dad has noI think that is why I am at an advantage sometimes. Although I miss my
> idea what I am
> doing as far as "school".
parents dearly and wish they were here to enjoy their grandchildren. My boys
will never know what it is like to have grandparents. But I have no one
asking questions or challenging what I do or why. And Jackson and I are both
so insinc with this lifestyle. Both my parents died before my oldest was 2
years old. And Jackson's mother died before I met him. His dad is not an
involved person. Wasn't as a father and isn't as a grandfather. We live in
North Carolina. The rest of my family is in Maine and Jackson's is in South
Dakota.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 3/5/03 12:18 AM, Stephanie Elms at stephanie.elms@...
wrote:
disciplined, then why isn't everyone disciplined?
Isn't it more likely, since only some people come out of school disciplined,
that being disciplined is part of his personality? School didn't provide the
opportunity to become disciplined, but the opportunity to do something that
he got satisfaction out of: gaining new skills through hard work. The
satisfaction didn't grow from nothing by being made to do something. The
desire was already there. School just provided the opportunity to satisfy
it.
Joyce
wrote:
> My dad just really has this thing about how schoolIf being made to do things until you can do them well makes people
> taught him discipline. He is a very disciplined guy
disciplined, then why isn't everyone disciplined?
Isn't it more likely, since only some people come out of school disciplined,
that being disciplined is part of his personality? School didn't provide the
opportunity to become disciplined, but the opportunity to do something that
he got satisfaction out of: gaining new skills through hard work. The
satisfaction didn't grow from nothing by being made to do something. The
desire was already there. School just provided the opportunity to satisfy
it.
Joyce