Tupelo Fogacci

Games, games, games! There is sooo much math in games. You can even change
how you take turns, to get more math in there!

Example: I recently noticed that my daughter could add two number easily,
but not a string of numbers. I got out candyland (she's 6) and four dice.
We played as usual, except for each of our first turns we used one die. On
our second turns we used two, on the third three, on the fourth four. We
rotated like this, and by the end, she had it. (It also made for a very
fast game!)

Here's the unschooling part (at least for me):

She wanted to do it. Shw had fun. She didn't express a desire to stop, but
played anyway because I forced her. For me, unschooling is presenting
stuff, saying "hey, look at this!" and then seeing if she's interested. If
not, we're done, if she is we keep going until she's done. It's about her
choice.

It seems to be working. We stared "officially" homeschooling in August, but
she didn't know until November. She begs me to let her play addition games
on the computer. Of course, she does seem to like numbers. But anyway, if
you find engaging, interesting ways to present the math without pressure,
it's actually pretty fun and the kids like it. It's the worksheets most
people could live without, not the math.

Tupelo
(who hates worksheets with a passion!)




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myfunny4 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Tupelo Fogacci"
<tupelohoney1@h...> wrote:
> I got out candyland (she's 6) and four dice.
> We played as usual, except for each of our first turns we used one
die. On
> our second turns we used two, on the third three, on the fourth
four. We
> rotated like this, and by the end, she had it. (It also made for a
very
> fast game!)

Hi Tupelo,

Did you pull out Candyland with the intention to use the game to
teach your daughter math; or did you pull out Candyland to have fun
with your daughter? There is a difference, and kids know it.

Unschooling is not *learning in disguise*. It's not unschooling
because you used a game instead of a workbook. It's unschooling when
you play a game with your daughter because you enjoy her company, and
you answer her questions, and interact with her according to *her*
need and desire, not according to your disguised agenda (which is to
teach her something).

I hope that doesn't sound harsh. I really don't mean to be...it's
just that it took me a while to understand the difference, and I
thought maybe I could help you understand it, too.

> She wanted to do it.

Was it her idea to play Candyland, or did you pull out the game
thinking to yourself that there's a lot of math in games.

> It's about her
> choice.

Choices are funny things. If someone offers you icecream and gives
you a *choice* of chocolate or vanilla, how much of a choice is
that? The person offering the icecream is still controlling your
choice. What if you're really a Rocky Road or Cherry Chocolate Chip
kind of person? You might *choose* the chocolate to be polite, but
in your heart you really want Cherry Chocolate Chip. I think kids
are like that; most kids want to please their parents, and so they
might make a *choice* simply because they're asked to choose.

Debbie

[email protected]

Imagine that......choices........isn't our whole adult world full of them?
This is where the children will live when they grow up!

Unschooling can be a many different things to many different people....that
is the beauty of thinking with your own mind.

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/03 6:26:44 AM, Debbies4@... writes:

<< Unschooling is not *learning in disguise*. It's not unschooling
because you used a game instead of a workbook. >>

I think it can be at first, but if it's not disguised well it will backfire.

If the parents can REALLY concentrate on changing what they believe about
what is "important learning" and what is "trivia," or what is "good use of
time" and what is "just playing," then if the parents need to use games at
first to help them see how learning works all the time, the games will be
better for they dyad, for the family, than not playing the games.

Once unschooling works (if the mom can get it to work, and it IS work, and
it's HER work), she won't feel obligated to choose an "educational game"
(says so on the box) over "just trivia" or "just chance"
(probability/math/statistics abound in those "just chance" games) or "just
strategy" (WHAT!??).

<<It's unschooling when
you play a game with your daughter because you enjoy her company, and
you answer her questions, and interact with her according to *her*
need and desire, not according to your disguised agenda (which is to
teach her something).>>

I agree with Debbie as regards experienced, established unschooling.

For someone newer to it who isn't quite convinced or committed, they might
need to start where they are *BUT they need to be quiet about it* and have
the plan of moving on away from that when they (the mom) "get it."

The learning curve is steepest for the mom, when unschooling is coming on.

And as to "start where you are," I much prefer "start where you're not."
For my personal tastes, I like bold, brave new unschoolers who will see where
they are and choose to be in a better place.

For every baby step, it's a little more "schooling" to be undone, a little
more unreasonable motherly expectation to overcome.

<<Choices are funny things. If someone offers you icecream and gives
you a *choice* of chocolate or vanilla, how much of a choice is
that? The person offering the icecream is still controlling your
choice. >>

And what if you didn't want ice cream at all whatsoever?
Then you either "choose" to go along to make the person happy,
or you're "uncooperative."

"My children choose to do these things" might be in the category of "my
children chose vanilla."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/03 8:25:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Debbies4@... writes:

> . I think kids
> are like that; most kids want to please their parents, and so they
> might make a *choice* simply because they're asked to choose.
>
>

Unless you are one of my boys. LOL. Sometimes I say, in jest, to my husband
"I wish we had never made the choice to let them choose" then we laugh and go
back to it. Giving your children the right to make choices for themselves is
something you can never take back. You give them a "right" and they know
they will always have this. My sons would never take chocolate if that is
not what they want. They would let me know what they really want then insist
on looking at the ice cream list at the shop and deciding for themselves.

Maybe that wasn't' the best way to put it because I guess if I really wanted
to take that "right" away from them I could. There would be repercussions
and it would have a horrible effect on our family but I guess I technically
could take their choices away.

I think sometimes outsiders think that the way I parent is "the easy way out"
but I really think it is the harder road. I force myself (and they force me)
to treat my children like any other person... if I want my way it is about
compromise. I can't just say "do it because I say so." That is not good
enough. I have to talk with them, discuss the whys and make compromises so
everyone is happy. It is about dialogue and takes a lot of effort. I think
that society has programmed us that children do what parents want them to.
And if you start out from when they are infants maybe that works.

Anyway my brain is foggy this morning. Yes, morning, we just got out of bed.
(ahh one of the joys of unschooling) Not sure how I got out on this tangent
so far. LOL. But I was thinking about this last night when my youngest (5)
said he was hungry and I said "do you want popcorn or graham crackers" he
said "neither, I am going to go look in the kitchen." I looked at Jackson
and said " I should learn not to make those kinds of suggestions because he
always wants 'something else'". LOL Then I followed him upstairs and helped
him get out a bowl of cereal. LOL

Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

My youngest daughter has always liked Monopoly Jr. I've always found it a
bit boring, because there is no choice. You roll the dice and do what the
square says. She wanted to play the other day, but we had to get the dice
out of another game set. So we had two black and two white. I suggested
that we each roll two dice, then choose which one we prefer to use. (roll a
2 and a 5, choose to move 2 or 5). She thought that was a good idea, so we
did it. It was the most interesting game of M jr that I've ever played. We
often change the rules of games, but we have discussed the difference
between all players agreeing at the beginning to the new rules and that
sometimes you will play with people who want to follow the "proper" rules.

Mary Ellen

----- snip----- "just chance"
> (probability/math/statistics abound in those "just chance" games) or "just
> strategy" (WHAT!??).

[email protected]

The two Holly stories I brought in yesterday probably seem too foreign, too
cool, too unlikely, for new unschoolers.

Looking for some old notes for a speech I'm doing Friday, I found this little
bit, from six or seven years ago, and thought it would be good to share here.


"We have a compost pile, and it's kind of amazing how it seems at first that
the food and leaves and sticks and banana peels and dog poop will never do
anything but sit there looking like garbage, but when I stop watching it, it
turns to solid black, rich dirt! I can't find any parts of the elements of
which it's made. It's kind of like that with my kids. It took me a few
years to quit watching them and trust that it would compost. <g>

"It did."


All that living and being and thinking and comparing turns to some very solid
knowledge. But it happens inside them. It takes time and it takes
non-interference. And it takes input, sunshine, water, lots of quiet, some
activity, some turning and stirring... <g>

Sandra

rebecca delong

Tupelo Fogacci <tupelohoney1@...> wrote:
>>>Example: I recently noticed that my daughter could add two number easily,
but not a string of numbers.>>>

Did she want to learn how to add a string of numbers, or did you want her to learn how to add a string of numbers?


>>>Here's the unschooling part (at least for me):
She wanted to do it. She had fun. She didn't express a desire to stop, but played anyway because I forced her.>>>

Ummm, the unschooling part? why is only part of it unschooling? Are you sure she had fun? If it was fun why did you have to "force" her to play?

>>>For me, unschooling is presenting
stuff, saying "hey, look at this!" and then seeing if she's interested. If not, we're done, if she is we keep going until she's done. It's about her choice.>>>

Is it really her choice? Can she just get up and turn on the t.v., or go play with dolls or anything that she wants. Can she say No, I don't want to play at all, with out even trying? Or does she have to at least try, and if so for how long?

>>>It seems to be working. We stared "officially" homeschooling in August, but she didn't know until November.>>>

why didn't she know?

>>>She begs me to let her play addition games
on the computer.>>>

Can she play anything that she wants? Or she begging to play the only games she is able to play?

>>>But anyway, if
you find engaging, interesting ways to present the math without pressure, it's actually pretty fun and the kids like it.>>>

When they want to do math they find it interesting and like it anyway, and you don't have to present it at all.

Rebecca







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/03 9:56:51 AM, genant2@... writes:

<< I guess if I really wanted
to take that "right" away from them I could. There would be repercussions
and it would have a horrible effect on our family but I guess I technically
could take their choices away. >>

They could take their physical presence away from your family, too. Kids do
it pretty regularly, one way or another.

I wouldn't mess with a liberated kid. They know stuff. <g>

Sandra

Lucie Caunter

dschoe3414@... wrote:

>Imagine that......choices........isn't our whole adult world full of them?
>This is where the children will live when they grow up!
>
>Unschooling can be a many different things to many different people....that
>is the beauty of thinking with your own mind.
>
>
Thank you!
Despite lurking for a few weeks now, I still do not get what the fuss
is all about. Instead of excluding material which might help you or
your child why not include it all? My home is full of books including
texts books. Text books, by the way were originally created as
reference books ( a few hundred years ago ), so why not use them as
such. Or Readers! They were invented to gather a bunch of short
stories together, so that the child would not need to carry an entire
library with him. Beside a few generations ago, children did not always
have access to a library. So if you have a few of them too, don't trow
them in the fire place.
And what about classes? If that's your source of information at the
moment on a particular subject does that make you less of an unschoolers
all of sudden? I disagree. My sons are gone to their music classes
right now. Their knowledge is way over my head. We are fortunate to
have found a gem of a teacher. The youngest wanted to learn blues
pieces. She found some for him to learn. The oldest got into Jazz,
Classical , Pop, and some pieces, I don't know what category they would
fall into, over the years. She's their sources of musical info, and she
keeps telling me that they are also.

When I was going to school (many moons ago) adult would say so-and-so
can't learn. I remember thinking : " This is impossible. You live you
learn. Unless you're dead you can't help learning. May be you even
learn after death too, I just don't have experience on that." Later I
realized they meant that so-and-so didn't learned what they wanted them
to learn. Well, that's different. They wanted to control the 5 W's
concerning some informations they were passing to us. And so-and-so
wasn't re-acting, as they wanted, at that moment.

To me the difference between "Schooling " and "Unschooling" is a mind
set, an attitude, a life style approach to learning. Schooling happened
in institution, where a person (the teacher) decide how you get access
to information. Schools depend on a system of punishments and rewards,
on conformity and lack of personal choices. Unschooling is using the
whole world (very inclusive, less segregated) to learn what ever, when
ever, how ever, why ever, with who ever you chose. Choices are involve.
Children are born unschoolers. I found this list useful to remind ME
to return to the unschooling child I was, and trust my sons to blossom
freely .

There also seemed to be confusion between controlling and influencing ?
Take reading for instance, for years I would find books I thought
might interest them ( so did the 11 grand-parents and grand- relatives
in my sons' lives... ). Sometimes they would get into one or another.
Sometimes it didn't catch any of them, only me, or not even me. Now,
They read books and say: " Momm , you should read this... (or) You
should propose it to your reading club." I could not make them read
something, or learn something. Learning is something you do personally.
But when I sit back, I can see how our own personal learning have been
intertwined over the years. Yet, to take the weaver analogy, today all
five of us are a different weaving. I don't want to control what they
learn, but we can't help influence each others learning. We live
together after all.

Anyway, enough coals in the fire for one day.
Friendship
Lucie, in snowy Ottawa with twins sons 16 and son 10 and DH almost 50




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/03 2:46:10 PM, lucie.caunter@... writes:

<< Text books, by the way were originally created as
reference books ( a few hundred years ago ), so why not use them as
such. >>

A few hundred years ago, that might have been true. But school text books
are created for school-teaching. I doubt you have any two hundred year old
reference books, and if you did they wouldn't be much use to you or your kids
except as information about what it was like 200 years ago.

If you're not making your kids go to classes, that's one thing. Some
families REQUIRE each child to take a music class and a sport and whatever
all. That's not unschooling, in my opinion.

Having textbooks is no big deal. Making kids use them is.
When a parent thinks the best math learning opportunity in her house is in a
math textbook, that's a problem IF she wants to understand unschooling.

Sandra

Mary Bianco

>From: Lucie Caunter <lucie.caunter@...>

<<Thank you!
Despite lurking for a few weeks now, I still do not get what the fuss
is all about. Instead of excluding material which might help you or
your child why not include it all? My home is full of books including
texts books. Text books, by the way were originally created as
reference books ( a few hundred years ago ), so why not use them as
such. Or Readers! They were invented to gather a bunch of short
stories together, so that the child would not need to carry an entire
library with him. Beside a few generations ago, children did not always
have access to a library. So if you have a few of them too, don't trow
them in the fire place.
And what about classes? If that's your source of information at the
moment on a particular subject does that make you less of an unschoolers
all of sudden? I disagree. My sons are gone to their music classes
right now. Their knowledge is way over my head. We are fortunate to
have found a gem of a teacher. The youngest wanted to learn blues
pieces. She found some for him to learn. The oldest got into Jazz,
Classical , Pop, and some pieces, I don't know what category they would
fall into, over the years. She's their sources of musical info, and she
keeps telling me that they are also.>>



I understand what you are saying and don't see where anyone here would have
a problem with it either. So why are you thinking that an unschooler can't
have textbooks in their homes? Why can't an unschooler take a class? Have
you read the archives and seen some of the discussions here? We recently had
one about reading programs and such. It's just a matter of what the child
enjoys. It's a matter of how it's presented. Saying to a child, "Let's play
Candyland for awhile" is different from saying, "Do you want to play a game,
which one would you like to play?" It may not seem like that much of a big
deal but it will make a difference in the long run if you look at everything
in that way. Is it a choice for the child or parent?


We have school books here. We have a reading program here. We have
worksheets and workbooks available. My children have access to classes. It's
all just a matter of what they want to choose to do though. Just because I
have it here doesn't mean they have to use it. That's the difference. Me
thinking they should use a tool and them wanting to.

Mary B


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Have a Nice Day!

>>>Unschooling is using the
whole world (very inclusive, less segregated) to learn what ever, when
ever, how ever, why ever, with who ever you chose. <<<<

I agree with this statement. That is why I think that even if a child opts to go to school for their own reasons, that they are still unschooling. Its about choice. Going to school is just one more choice in the buffet of an unschooling lifestyle.

As long as the child has the choice to leave anytime they wish, they are still unschooling in my humble opinion.

I know not everyone agrees with that, and thats ok.

Kristen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

>From: Have a Nice Day! <litlrooh@...>

<<I agree with this statement. That is why I think that even if a child
opts to go to school for their own reasons, that they are still unschooling.
Its about choice. Going to school is just one more choice in the buffet
of an unschooling lifestyle.

As long as the child has the choice to leave anytime they wish, they are
still unschooling in my humble opinion.

I know not everyone agrees with that, and thats ok.>>



I actually do agree with this. At least so far. <bg> Some others may come up
with something to have me change my mind.

The woman who got me into unschooling, in my opinion at the time was very
radical. This was years ago before I realized there were others out there!
She was totally trusting and respectful of her children. She unschooled them
all their lives in a few different states. Her oldest, when she was about 16
wanted to enroll in Clon Lara. Now what I understand about it is they send
you work that has to be finished. Kind of like a mail order school program.
Maybe less restrictive. Anyway, with the way her mom handled it all, I saw
it as unschooling too. It was something her daughter wanted to do and
actually found the school herself. It was handled the same way they handled
everything else. It was all child decided. The daughter wanted the diploma
she got at the end and I think she just wanted to see if she could do it. I
think she was enrolled for 2 years until she finished.

I also consider Tara now as being unschooled. It's not just the fact that
she has the option to quit school anytime she wants. She also has the option
when to go or not and whether she wants to follow the rules or not. Now if
she decided she wanted all this and I made her be on time, go every day, do
the work, wear the uniform all because she's the one that "wanted" this, it
wouldn't be the same. She has the option for all the rules that go along
with the school. She bends them, believe me, but knows the consequences are
her own to handle. She doesn't get any hassle from me. I really don't mind
if she pushes the limit of her uniforms. I don't mind if she doesn't do all
the homework. I don't mind if she skips a day or is late. It's all her
choice and she decides if the consequences are worth the bending of the
rules or not. She knows she isn't going to get in trouble here.

She's a great kid. Never in trouble. She's trustworthy and lets me know what
she's doing. She misses a day of school here and there. She makes it up in
her work because she likes seeing her do good by school standards. She's had
detention once for smacking some kid. I offered to go to school in her
behalf because I thought they were wrong and she asked me not to. She
handles this all with her own agenda. She does well as far as grades. She
works 5 days a week at Old Navy. She saves money, she spends money. She's
rarely home later than 1:00 a.m. even though she has no curfew. Since I've
looked at her differently, in an unschooling way, if you will, things in her
life have been better than ever. For her and for us because of her
happiness.

Mary B


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Have a Nice Day!

Mary,

I totally agree. You might recall my son was talking about going back to high school next year.

He told me yesterday he "kind of wants to go" but "doesn't want to do all the work it would take to prepare to go".

I didn't get a chance yet to tell him that he doesn't have to and that he can just go and do what he wants on his own terms. I really don't care if they think he isn't "prepared" anymore. I don't even care if he never does the homework or snores through the classes.

His attitude toward school is that it is stupid but he wants to be with his friends. I figure it he feels that way, he'll come home before he gets into trouble over it. I think he just wants to decide if its worth it to be with his friends and I don't think it will take long for him to decide.

Kristen

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Bianco
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschool math


>From: Have a Nice Day! <litlrooh@...>

<<I agree with this statement. That is why I think that even if a child
opts to go to school for their own reasons, that they are still unschooling.
Its about choice. Going to school is just one more choice in the buffet
of an unschooling lifestyle.

As long as the child has the choice to leave anytime they wish, they are
still unschooling in my humble opinion.

I know not everyone agrees with that, and thats ok.>>



I actually do agree with this. At least so far. <bg> Some others may come up
with something to have me change my mind.

The woman who got me into unschooling, in my opinion at the time was very
radical. This was years ago before I realized there were others out there!
She was totally trusting and respectful of her children. She unschooled them
all their lives in a few different states. Her oldest, when she was about 16
wanted to enroll in Clon Lara. Now what I understand about it is they send
you work that has to be finished. Kind of like a mail order school program.
Maybe less restrictive. Anyway, with the way her mom handled it all, I saw
it as unschooling too. It was something her daughter wanted to do and
actually found the school herself. It was handled the same way they handled
everything else. It was all child decided. The daughter wanted the diploma
she got at the end and I think she just wanted to see if she could do it. I
think she was enrolled for 2 years until she finished.

I also consider Tara now as being unschooled. It's not just the fact that
she has the option to quit school anytime she wants. She also has the option
when to go or not and whether she wants to follow the rules or not. Now if
she decided she wanted all this and I made her be on time, go every day, do
the work, wear the uniform all because she's the one that "wanted" this, it
wouldn't be the same. She has the option for all the rules that go along
with the school. She bends them, believe me, but knows the consequences are
her own to handle. She doesn't get any hassle from me. I really don't mind
if she pushes the limit of her uniforms. I don't mind if she doesn't do all
the homework. I don't mind if she skips a day or is late. It's all her
choice and she decides if the consequences are worth the bending of the
rules or not. She knows she isn't going to get in trouble here.

She's a great kid. Never in trouble. She's trustworthy and lets me know what
she's doing. She misses a day of school here and there. She makes it up in
her work because she likes seeing her do good by school standards. She's had
detention once for smacking some kid. I offered to go to school in her
behalf because I thought they were wrong and she asked me not to. She
handles this all with her own agenda. She does well as far as grades. She
works 5 days a week at Old Navy. She saves money, she spends money. She's
rarely home later than 1:00 a.m. even though she has no curfew. Since I've
looked at her differently, in an unschooling way, if you will, things in her
life have been better than ever. For her and for us because of her
happiness.

Mary B


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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/03 9:38:18 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< As long as the child has the choice to leave anytime they wish, they are
still unschooling in my humble opinion. >>

A child that goes to school by choice has a very different experience from a
child that has no choice. On that I will agree.
But Unschooling means NOT schooling. And a child that goes to school is
schooling. Period.
People diluting the definition of unschooling is NOT going to help people
understand it better. Going to school can not, by definition, be unschooling.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

The Wolfe's

My middle daughter decided that she wanted to go back to school when she was 14. She had been out of school for almost 2 years. She said she wanted to go back for the "socialization". On what would have been her fourth day back, she said, "Mom, do I have to go back?" I said "No." She said "Good, because school is so stupid." She told me later that there really is no socialization because the teachers won't let you talk to your friends in class, you can't talk to your friends in between classes because you're too busy rushing to your locker and you can't talk to your friends at lunch because you only get a few minutes to eat. She said it was pointless. And she said that "home ec" in particular was a "joke". She said they had a quiz to name kitchen utensils (spatula, wooden spoon, whisk, etc.) She said "Didn't we learn this stuff like when we were 3?" lol. She never went back. She met a nice guy, got married and is having a baby any day now. She plans on homeschooling her kids. I don't know about unschooling. After I took her out of school (she was in 7th grade), she kept asking me when I was going to give her schoolwork to do. I tried to explain about decompressing, but she would say, "Mom! They're not going to let you get away with this!" Well, enough rambling for me. I must get my shower.

~*~Mary Ellen~*~
-----Original Message-----
From: Have a Nice Day! <litlrooh@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschool math


Mary,

I totally agree. You might recall my son was talking about going back to high school next year.

He told me yesterday he "kind of wants to go" but "doesn't want to do all the work it would take to prepare to go".

I didn't get a chance yet to tell him that he doesn't have to and that he can just go and do what he wants on his own terms. I really don't care if they think he isn't "prepared" anymore. I don't even care if he never does the homework or snores through the classes.

His attitude toward school is that it is stupid but he wants to be with his friends. I figure it he feels that way, he'll come home before he gets into trouble over it. I think he just wants to decide if its worth it to be with his friends and I don't think it will take long for him to decide.

Kristen

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Bianco
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschool math


>From: Have a Nice Day! <litlrooh@...>

<<I agree with this statement. That is why I think that even if a child
opts to go to school for their own reasons, that they are still unschooling.
Its about choice. Going to school is just one more choice in the buffet
of an unschooling lifestyle.

As long as the child has the choice to leave anytime they wish, they are
still unschooling in my humble opinion.

I know not everyone agrees with that, and thats ok.>>



I actually do agree with this. At least so far. <bg> Some others may come up
with something to have me change my mind.

The woman who got me into unschooling, in my opinion at the time was very
radical. This was years ago before I realized there were others out there!
She was totally trusting and respectful of her children. She unschooled them
all their lives in a few different states. Her oldest, when she was about 16
wanted to enroll in Clon Lara. Now what I understand about it is they send
you work that has to be finished. Kind of like a mail order school program.
Maybe less restrictive. Anyway, with the way her mom handled it all, I saw
it as unschooling too. It was something her daughter wanted to do and
actually found the school herself. It was handled the same way they handled
everything else. It was all child decided. The daughter wanted the diploma
she got at the end and I think she just wanted to see if she could do it. I
think she was enrolled for 2 years until she finished.

I also consider Tara now as being unschooled. It's not just the fact that
she has the option to quit school anytime she wants. She also has the option
when to go or not and whether she wants to follow the rules or not. Now if
she decided she wanted all this and I made her be on time, go every day, do
the work, wear the uniform all because she's the one that "wanted" this, it
wouldn't be the same. She has the option for all the rules that go along
with the school. She bends them, believe me, but knows the consequences are
her own to handle. She doesn't get any hassle from me. I really don't mind
if she pushes the limit of her uniforms. I don't mind if she doesn't do all
the homework. I don't mind if she skips a day or is late. It's all her
choice and she decides if the consequences are worth the bending of the
rules or not. She knows she isn't going to get in trouble here.

She's a great kid. Never in trouble. She's trustworthy and lets me know what
she's doing. She misses a day of school here and there. She makes it up in
her work because she likes seeing her do good by school standards. She's had
detention once for smacking some kid. I offered to go to school in her
behalf because I thought they were wrong and she asked me not to. She
handles this all with her own agenda. She does well as far as grades. She
works 5 days a week at Old Navy. She saves money, she spends money. She's
rarely home later than 1:00 a.m. even though she has no curfew. Since I've
looked at her differently, in an unschooling way, if you will, things in her
life have been better than ever. For her and for us because of her
happiness.

Mary B


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Fetteroll

on 2/26/03 4:50 PM, Lucie Caunter at lucie.caunter@... wrote:

> I still do not get what the fuss
> is all about. Instead of excluding material which might help you or
> your child why not include it all?

I agree with Mary. No one would disagree with what you're saying. But it
isn't the actions that make something unschooling or not, it's the
motivations. And that's what the fuss is about.

If a *parent* sees a resource as a means of moving the child from where he
is to where the parent wants him to be, then it's not unschooling. If the
parents sees something as a way of helping the child get from where he is to
where the *child* wants to be then it's unschooling.

It can get a bit gray depending on the parents' and children's understanding
of learning too. If someone is taking a class because it appeals to them
then it's unschooling. If someone is taking a class because they think it's
the only way to learn something properly then their thinking may be closing
in or skewing away from unschooling.

(Sometimes a class *is* the only decent option, like martial arts for
example. But an art class can provide *aspects* of learning about art (like
seeing how others interpret the same assignment, hearing how someone else
views what you're doing) that learning in other ways don't provide as well.)

No one can really tell *why* someone is doing something based purely on what
they're doing. If unschooling were describable and definable purely through
what people do, it would be easy to explain and get! We could just give
people a formula. But it isn't. It depends lots on what's going on inside of
someone which is why we need so many words to talk about it!

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/03 11:15:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

> People diluting the definition of unschooling is NOT going to help people
> understand it better. Going to school can not, by definition, be
> unschooling

I totally agree with this statement. However, I consider us an unschooling
family, not just that my children are unschoolers but as a family we are an
unschooling family. Our family philosophy is that we learn what we need to
learn to do what we are doing right now, and what interests us right now.
When we renovated our bathroom we read and talked with people about how to do
this and we, even as adults, were unschoolers.

Having said that, I do not have children in public or private school so have
no experience with that scenario, but if I did I would still consider us an
unschooling family that happened to have a "schooling" (for lack of a better
word) child. The family as a whole still holds to the same philosophy, that
we trust our children as we trust each other to make the right choices for
themselves at any given moment. If our child felt that there was something
in "school" that he needed (what I can't imagine, LOL) I would still consider
us an unschooling family and that the child had made the choice to be a
"schooler". This would be just a part of his lifelong journey. I certainly
wouldn't call him an unschooler as an individual at that particular moment
though.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/27/03 8:28:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> I agree with Mary. No one would disagree with what you're saying. But it
> isn't the actions that make something unschooling or not, it's the
> motivations. And that's what the fuss is about.
>
>

I love that statement. It isn't the "what" you are or are not doing it is
the "why".
That is why I love this list and a couple of other lists I am on. The
discussion focuses on the "why" and not just on the "what'. Sometimes it is
easier to talk about the "whats" but if you really get down to the philosophy
behind it that is where the real growth takes place.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

>>But Unschooling means NOT schooling. And a child that goes to school is
schooling. Period.<<

The method of "learning at school" may not be called "unschooling".

What then do we call the underlying philosophy that we trust our children with the choice, (even if they want to go back to school)?

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

> I agree with Mary. No one would disagree with what you're saying. But it
> isn't the actions that make something unschooling or not, it's the
> motivations. <<<

If thats true, then why would a child who chooses to go to school just to be with his friends NOT be unschooling?

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/27/03 9:10:10 AM, genant2@... writes:

<< When we renovated our bathroom we read and talked with people about how to
do
this and we, even as adults, were unschoolers.
>>

But the government doesn't have a mandatory bathroom renovation school.

You were learning through living, but you weren't removing yourself from a
compulsory school to do so.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>What then do we call the underlying philosophy that we trust our children
>>with the choice, (even if they want to go back to school)?>>

I believe that they are unschoolers who are going to school. If their sense
of self is intact, if they understand that learning happens all around us,
if they go to school to meet a specific need that *they* have, they are
maintaining their unschooling mindset. I guess the worry (?-don't know if
that's the right word) comes up that kids may tell themselves that they're
going for the friends, but that they get sucked into their worth being tied
to their grades. Or that learning only comes from a teacher. Or that there's
good vs. bad learning.

Life is good.
~Mary


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Mary Bianco

>From: "The Wolfe's" <wolfegang@...>

<<She never went back. She met a nice guy, got married and is having a baby
any day now. She plans on homeschooling her kids. I don't know about
unschooling>>


Okay so just tell me she's not 15!! I had to laugh at the way it came out.
14, school for a few days, find a nice guy, married and having a baby!!!

It was a nice story. Congratulations on the coming attraction. I would love
for my children to also want to homeschool. As a grandma, knowing how I was
as a mom, I'm not sure I could bear to see the little ones sent off without
opening my mouth.

Mary B

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Mary Bianco

>From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>

<<I believe that they are unschoolers who are going to school. If their
sense of self is intact, if they understand that learning happens all around
us, if they go to school to meet a specific need that *they* have, they are
maintaining their unschooling mindset. I guess the worry (?-don't know if
that's the right word) comes up that kids may tell themselves that they're
going for the friends, but that they get sucked into their worth being tied
to their grades. Or that learning only comes from a teacher. Or that there's
good vs. bad learning.>>



First of all I don't call my oldest an unschooler. In my mind I think she is
but only because I know how we are with it and how she is with school and
the reasons behind it. To me, unschooling is so much more than just "not
going to school." But I do know that we are still an unschooling family. It
was a choice Tara made. Just as if she would want to take music lessons,
foreign language lessons or do unit studies because she liked them.

Her going to school is for her reasons. Her choices. She knows you can learn
lots elsewhere. She sees that every day here. She likes the teachers and the
socialization. In her school, she actually does socialize an awful lot. More
so than when she was younger. The teachers are more like buddies than
anything else. She likes pushing the limits on something most people don't
question. She likes the grades and the work that accompanies it. She isn't
finding it hard. She's actually taking AP classes for college credit and
doing well. She hates tests and doesn't do well on them and she's fine with
that. So I don't see where she's trapped into the "doing good" mentality of
schools. She doesn't care what they think, she cares what she thinks.

So we do unschool.


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Have a Nice Day!

>>What then do we call the underlying philosophy that we trust our children
>>with the choice, (even if they want to go back to school)?>>

I believe that they are unschoolers who are going to school. If their sense
of self is intact, if they understand that learning happens all around us,
if they go to school to meet a specific need that *they* have, they are
maintaining their unschooling mindset. I guess the worry (?-don't know if
that's the right word) comes up that kids may tell themselves that they're
going for the friends, but that they get sucked into their worth being tied
to their grades. Or that learning only comes from a teacher. Or that there's
good vs. bad learning.<<<
I completely agree. And its definitely a risk to think about and talk about with kids who are thinking about going back.

Kristen


Life is good.
~Mary


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

>From: "zenmomma *" <zenmomma@...>

<<I believe that they are unschoolers who are going to school. If their
sense of self is intact, if they understand that learning happens all around
us, if they go to school to meet a specific need that *they* have, they are
maintaining their unschooling mindset. I guess the worry (?-don't know if
that's the right word) comes up that kids may tell themselves that they're
going for the friends, but that they get sucked into their worth being tied
to their grades. Or that learning only comes from a teacher. Or that there's
good vs. bad learning.>>



First of all I don't call my oldest an unschooler. In my mind I think she is
but only because I know how we are with it and how she is with school and
the reasons behind it. To me, unschooling is so much more than just "not
going to school." But I do know that we are still an unschooling family. It
was a choice Tara made. Just as if she would want to take music lessons,
foreign language lessons or do unit studies because she liked them.

Her going to school is for her reasons. Her choices. She knows you can learn
lots elsewhere. She sees that every day here. She likes the teachers and the
socialization. In her school, she actually does socialize an awful lot. More
so than when she was younger. The teachers are more like buddies than
anything else. She likes pushing the limits on something most people don't
question. She likes the grades and the work that accompanies it. She isn't
finding it hard. She's actually taking AP classes for college credit and
doing well. She hates tests and doesn't do well on them and she's fine with
that. So I don't see where she's trapped into the "doing good" mentality of
schools. She doesn't care what they think, she cares what she thinks.

So we do unschool. We are an unschooling family. If that confuses some, I'm
sorry. I think maybe it helps to actually make some things clearer to some
too.

Sorry I think this sent off before I was ready.

Mary B


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Fetteroll

on 2/27/03 11:41 AM, Have a Nice Day! at litlrooh@... wrote:

> If thats true, then why would a child who chooses to go to school just to be
> with his friends NOT be unschooling?

I had a post just about that and the computer crashed before it got sent. I
agree that if a child goes to school just for social stuff, band, sports,
and sees the teachers, tests and textbooks as just a hoop to jump through to
get to the stuff they want, then they're unschooling.

But it can be confusing to newbies to say so. (Just mentioning that as
something we should be aware of, not to keep anyone from talking about it.)
Saying a child choosing to go to school is unschooling will get interpretted
as whatever a child chooses to do is unschooling as long as the child has
"freely" chosen it.

But, again, it's the motivations, not the actions that define unschooling.
If a child is certain they need a teacher to learn something, then they
aren't making that decision based on unschooling principles but on fear
instilled by society.

Joyce