[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 1:39:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:


> I'm sure it is obvious that giving a kid a label for him/herself isn't
> nearly as useful as talking about specific issues that he/she has to
> deal with - talking about those the same way you talk about the child's
> strengths - concretely in terms of how they affect his/her ability to
> pursue his/her interests.
>
> -pam
>

I havent really seen anyone here be vague about this. I've read lots of
concrete examples, real life situations, and in depth descriptions of things
going on in childrens lives. Folks usally use "labels" or familar terms
just to summarize some general behaviors thier child has. When folks have
had a specific concern or question about how to deal with situations or
behaviours, they have been very specific and concrete in giving details about
the issue. I know I get some flack for being too long winded and giving too
much detail. But, I'm not the only one here that gets carried away when
telling about life's events. As a matter of fact, I see many many more
postsexplaining and describing the situations in detail than being vague and
just throwing out "labels"

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Saturday, February 15, 2003, at 10:55 AM, grlynbl@... wrote:

> I havent really seen anyone here be vague about this. I've read lots
> of
> concrete examples, real life situations, and in depth descriptions of
> things
> going on in childrens lives. Folks usally use "labels" or familar
> terms
> just to summarize some general behaviors thier child has.


Teresa,

This is an example:

"I sometimes find it confusing figuring out
how unschooling "works" or fits into our lives with kids who have
special
needs. "

This is the kind of thing people are reacting to, where all kids with
special needs are lumped together.
You wrote that.


Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 3:13:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> "I sometimes find it confusing figuring out
> how unschooling "works" or fits into our lives with kids who have
> special
> needs. "
>

Now, you know that was a general statement meant to describe my
frustrations.. NOT a question or concern that I have for one of my children.
Would you perfer me to say..

I sometimes find it confusing figuring out
how unschooling "works" or fits into our lives with children who ( insert 5
paragraph essay on bed time or breaking video controllers)

Folks who regularly read this list know about my children and the challanges
we face. I dont think I need to describe them in detail when I'm not talking
about them.. For instance, if someone made a comment about racism,,maybe
they said, " Being an african american, I find it difficult to find groups
who will embrace our culture differences" Do they need to list and describe
thier cultural differences in order for folks to understand what they are
having difficulty with??? You took my statement out of context to make a
point about vagueness. Do you REALLY think I am vague?

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 2/15/03 3:45 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> Now, you know that was a general statement meant to describe my
> frustrations.. NOT a question or concern that I have for one of my children.

Pam wouldn't have picked it out as the type of thing that people are
reacting to if that's what she thought.

> Would you perfer me to say..

That's not a helpful question to ask. The question to ask *yourself* is how
can I be most clear to people who've never met me or my family?

Joyce

[email protected]

"Folks who regularly read this list know about my children and the
challanges
we face."

No we don't. You assume WAY too much for a list with 1,000 members. I can
only barely keep track of stuff from folks I've either met in real life, or
have read posts from for over a year.
Believe me, most of us are talking to folks in more than one place on the
internet, taking phone calls from new homeschoolers etc...
I can NOT keep track of who has what kids, what problems they face etc...
And from everything I remember of what you've written, unschooling is not
what you've been doing, or at least that's what you said.

"Do you REALLY think I am vague?"

No, you sound confused. Confused and like you want to retract everything
after you've said it, which is NOT very clear for those of us trying to offer
advice.


Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 4:25:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> Pam wouldn't have picked it out as the type of thing that people are
> reacting to if that's what she thought.
>

She didn't even copy the whole sentence. She took it out of context. I'm
not going to re copy the whole post here... If anyone cares, they can look at
it for themselves.. Or they can take your and Pams word for it.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

Teresa -

I took that bit out to point something specific out to you, to help you
possibly understand better the point about the "special needs" label
and why it isn't useful here.

You are word-wrestling - I'm not getting the slightest bit of sense
that you're actually engaged in any real way in trying to understand.

--pam


On Saturday, February 15, 2003, at 04:58 PM, grlynbl@... wrote:

> She didn't even copy the whole sentence. She took it out of context.
> I'm
> not going to re copy the whole post here... If anyone cares, they can
> look at
> it for themselves.. Or they can take your and Pams word for it.
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 12:23:16 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< > Pam wouldn't have picked it out as the type of thing that people are
> reacting to if that's what she thought.
>

She didn't even copy the whole sentence. She took it out of context. I'm
not going to re copy the whole post here... If anyone cares, they can look at
it for themselves.. Or they can take your and Pams word for it. >>

Shhhhhhhhh.
Don't copy the whole post.
Everybody read yours and read Pam's.

Talk about unschooling or just read.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 2/15/03 7:58 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> She didn't even copy the whole sentence. She took it out of context. I'm
> not going to re copy the whole post here... If anyone cares, they can look at
> it for themselves.. Or they can take your and Pams word for it.

Teresa, Pam is trying to help you. And again you're defending as though she
were attacking you. Rather than defending your statement, why not ask why
*she* felt it might cause problems for people reading. (Well, you could do
that if she hadn't already explained it.) She saw something in your sentence
that you didn't. And that information could be valuable in figuring out how
to help yourself better.

Think about the concept of defense. When we defend something, we put up a
barrier around it to protect it from harm.

But you're putting up barriers and protecting things that people feel might
be hindering you. The things people are trying to point out to you are
things that it would help you to examine in order for you to figure out how
to help you and your family.

Maybe try seeing yourself as separate from the choices you made. Think of
your choices as a hammer that you picked up. People with nicely screwed in
screws are trying to suggest that a screwdriver might be more useful for
screwing in a screw. They aren't saying you're a bad person for picking up a
hammer. But if you defend your choice of the hammer, you're not helping
yourself and you're turning away the people who could offer some useful
insights.

Maybe people are guessing wrong. That's going to happen because it's
impossible to communicate perfectly in any media. But they're guessing wrong
for legitimate reasons. And if you want people to give you advice that makes
more sense for your family, you'll have to figure out what it is you're
saying that's giving people a wrong impression. *Not* because *they* need
you to. But because *you* need you to.

And maybe people are guessing right and your defenses won't let you see
that. I've met Pam's and Sandra's and Mary's and Anne's kids. They all seem
like perfectly ordinary kids even though they've all described the special
issues they've dealt with and are dealing with. Their kids are where it
seems like you'd like your kids to be. They have something you don't. It's
hard to know what it is. And it will be impossible for you to figure it out
if you put up barriers to protect yourself when part of what you have isn't
working for you.

Rather than seeing this list as a force trying to get you to change, see it
as a resource to mine for help. Rather than resisting what isn't being
forced, ask questions. Ask why do you think that? What has worked for you?
How could I do that?

Joyce

zenmomma *

>Rather than seeing this list as a force trying to get you to change, see it
>as a resource to mine for help.

This whole post was so good. I'd pay for such wonderful, clear, concise
insight! And here it is just being offered up free for the taking. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary

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