prejudices regarding education
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/03 4:44:06 PM, encadia@... writes:
<< I also, have a child with special needs, and with your education, I
expected
much more from you. And no, its not always gentic or learned by modeling.
<<Its very apparent that You have absolutely no clue of parenting a child
with
special needs, much less commenting in regards to it. >>
A few weeks ago someone clearly misinterpreted something I wrote in another
place. Plainly just didn't read carefully. When called on that, she said
she had read it twice. When it was quoted back and pointed out as her
misinterpretation, rather than saying "Sorry--I misunderstood," a bizarre
defense was employed. She said she had been on the dean's list, had a 4.0 in
college, and so COULD read very well.
She could have a PhD in remedial reading or philosophy or law, and if she
misread a post about unschooling she STILL misread the post. Reading
comprehension is internal, and whether someone can do it or not has zip to do
with their formal education.
In the e-mail quoted above, a put-down was couched in such terms:
-=- with your education, I expected
much more from you-=-
Some of the wisest and most effective unschooling moms I know don't have a
college degree. Some didn't finish high school. Some of the most clue-free
and oppressive parents I know have advanced degrees.
Unschoolers, of ALL people, need to work to rid themselves of attachment to
formal education and the papers that come with that.
-=- with your education, I expected much more from you-=-
Like what?
Expected me to revert to what I was taught about learning disabilities when I
was taking psychology and education classes in the 1970's?
Those experts didn't know anything about unschooling. They were talking
about how teachers in schools can deal with disabilities. And the answer was
basically "not very well." But they WERE saying that in the open classroom
model, kids of different skill and ability levels could share a classroom
because it wouldn't be cooperative and individualized rather than competitive!
What special education teachers try (unsuccessfully) to do sometimes is to
simulate home conditions more than regular school does. They deal with
repetition, life skills, alternative exercises to what regular kids are doing
in sit-down classrooms down the hall, and above all they try to have only a
few children to each adult.
Unschooling does all that, and does it better.
Unschooling keeps kids from having to be labelled different, disabled, and
"special"
(in a way that is not good-special, but just DIFFERENT special,
and all the other kids know that)
Unschooling allows for kids to learn in fits and starts, instead of trying to
maintain or fake the smooth curve that schools' units and sessions and
semesters and report cards and IEPs need.
That's equally advantageous to ALL children.
Pam Hartley wrote:
<<"Special needs" can be and sometimes is used an excuse for a parent to say
sullenly and determinedly, "No, that won't work here.">>
I've seen it happen lots. And it looks like Teresa's defense against
unschooling is that her kids have special problems and so it's not going to
work. The long post about breaking video controllers and doors started off
defensively. She pretty much declared that answers other than Mary's and
Anne's were going to be condescending criticism she could ignore. It seemed
to me to be saying that the advice from this list was ruining her family, and
was obviously NOT working.
Yet the projection continued with insults that there are people here who
follow advice blindly.
Doing something recommended here without understanding WHY and without
changing one's own thought, attitude and expectations won't help much. Doing
something for two weeks and declaring it a failure doesn't show much
dedication to change either. It sounds more like justification for reverting
to the old behaviors.
If a family is happy with the way things are going, then they're happy!
If a family is unhappy and wants to learn more about how some unschooling fa
milies have moved from a similarly unhappy state to a relaxed and "together"
family life, this list can furnish them LOTS of ideas and examples.
I do not personally consider "ADD" or "ADHD" to be disabilities. And even in
an extreme case of a set of those symptoms, saying unschooling won't work is
a massive cop-out.
If someone doesn't want to unschool, they shouldn't unschool. They shouldn't
blame a child who's already been labelled defective and deficient for THEIR
failure to understand helping kids to learn in their own way where they are
today, right now.
The symptoms of ADD are present in such a large percentage of people that
it's ludicrous to consider it "special needs." In school, because school
doesn't allow for individualization, that set of behaviors called ADHD is
problematical FOR THE SCHOOL. For the teacher. For the system.
Unschooling removes those strictures and barriers.
When the barrier's gone, barrier-deficiency is not a factor.
So I myself think it's a waste of unschooling time for us to encourage people
to think that "ADHD kids" can't learn on their own as other kids can. Let us
be real: they can probably do it BETTER. So I have no interest in the
sighing of a mother who wants people here to say "There, there, of COURSE you
can't unschool because youre children have disABILITIES."
I didn't quit learning after I quit going to school.
-=--=- with your education, I expected much more from you-=--=-
That was an insult that revealed more of the prejudice of the writer than
anything else.
I expect no less of myself than to give the most helpful and honest advice I
can give when people need it. If we, this list and unschoolers, are going to
be blamed because one family can't understand unschooling and make it work,
it's worth pointing out that the behavior of children is sometimes genetic.
I see it in my kids, and I see it in other people's kids, and people here
tell stories frequently of seeing their own childhood situations (peeing
beds, food preferences, fears, whatever) in their children. I see people
talk about traits of bio parents in their adopted children.
I expect no less of myself than to care more about the feelings and happiness
of children than about the personal comfort levels of their resistant mothers.
And I DO expect unschoolers to try to dismantle their remaining prejudices
regarding formal education. I'm about to have three adults leave my house,
perhaps with no formal education whatsoever. Perhaps with "some college."
Perhaps as lawyers or doctors. Whatever it is, I HOPE I will have learned
enough not to value the kid with a college report card over one who chose to
put their money and energy into formal education. Either way will be their
choice.
My children will choose college or not the way they choose TV or not, candy
or not, to sleep early or late, to set an alarm or to sleep, whether to play
video games or not. And because they have practice making good decisions,
they will not make them spuriously or lightly or ignorantly. They won't go
to college to make me happy. They won't get into debt over their heads just
to please a grandmother who'll be dead before the debt's gone. And IF they
go to college, nobody there will suspect they learned to read on their own
from gaming magazines and card games. And IF they go to college, nobody
will say to them -=- with your education, I expected
much more from you-=-.
Sandra
Sandra
<< I also, have a child with special needs, and with your education, I
expected
much more from you. And no, its not always gentic or learned by modeling.
<<Its very apparent that You have absolutely no clue of parenting a child
with
special needs, much less commenting in regards to it. >>
A few weeks ago someone clearly misinterpreted something I wrote in another
place. Plainly just didn't read carefully. When called on that, she said
she had read it twice. When it was quoted back and pointed out as her
misinterpretation, rather than saying "Sorry--I misunderstood," a bizarre
defense was employed. She said she had been on the dean's list, had a 4.0 in
college, and so COULD read very well.
She could have a PhD in remedial reading or philosophy or law, and if she
misread a post about unschooling she STILL misread the post. Reading
comprehension is internal, and whether someone can do it or not has zip to do
with their formal education.
In the e-mail quoted above, a put-down was couched in such terms:
-=- with your education, I expected
much more from you-=-
Some of the wisest and most effective unschooling moms I know don't have a
college degree. Some didn't finish high school. Some of the most clue-free
and oppressive parents I know have advanced degrees.
Unschoolers, of ALL people, need to work to rid themselves of attachment to
formal education and the papers that come with that.
-=- with your education, I expected much more from you-=-
Like what?
Expected me to revert to what I was taught about learning disabilities when I
was taking psychology and education classes in the 1970's?
Those experts didn't know anything about unschooling. They were talking
about how teachers in schools can deal with disabilities. And the answer was
basically "not very well." But they WERE saying that in the open classroom
model, kids of different skill and ability levels could share a classroom
because it wouldn't be cooperative and individualized rather than competitive!
What special education teachers try (unsuccessfully) to do sometimes is to
simulate home conditions more than regular school does. They deal with
repetition, life skills, alternative exercises to what regular kids are doing
in sit-down classrooms down the hall, and above all they try to have only a
few children to each adult.
Unschooling does all that, and does it better.
Unschooling keeps kids from having to be labelled different, disabled, and
"special"
(in a way that is not good-special, but just DIFFERENT special,
and all the other kids know that)
Unschooling allows for kids to learn in fits and starts, instead of trying to
maintain or fake the smooth curve that schools' units and sessions and
semesters and report cards and IEPs need.
That's equally advantageous to ALL children.
Pam Hartley wrote:
<<"Special needs" can be and sometimes is used an excuse for a parent to say
sullenly and determinedly, "No, that won't work here.">>
I've seen it happen lots. And it looks like Teresa's defense against
unschooling is that her kids have special problems and so it's not going to
work. The long post about breaking video controllers and doors started off
defensively. She pretty much declared that answers other than Mary's and
Anne's were going to be condescending criticism she could ignore. It seemed
to me to be saying that the advice from this list was ruining her family, and
was obviously NOT working.
Yet the projection continued with insults that there are people here who
follow advice blindly.
Doing something recommended here without understanding WHY and without
changing one's own thought, attitude and expectations won't help much. Doing
something for two weeks and declaring it a failure doesn't show much
dedication to change either. It sounds more like justification for reverting
to the old behaviors.
If a family is happy with the way things are going, then they're happy!
If a family is unhappy and wants to learn more about how some unschooling fa
milies have moved from a similarly unhappy state to a relaxed and "together"
family life, this list can furnish them LOTS of ideas and examples.
I do not personally consider "ADD" or "ADHD" to be disabilities. And even in
an extreme case of a set of those symptoms, saying unschooling won't work is
a massive cop-out.
If someone doesn't want to unschool, they shouldn't unschool. They shouldn't
blame a child who's already been labelled defective and deficient for THEIR
failure to understand helping kids to learn in their own way where they are
today, right now.
The symptoms of ADD are present in such a large percentage of people that
it's ludicrous to consider it "special needs." In school, because school
doesn't allow for individualization, that set of behaviors called ADHD is
problematical FOR THE SCHOOL. For the teacher. For the system.
Unschooling removes those strictures and barriers.
When the barrier's gone, barrier-deficiency is not a factor.
So I myself think it's a waste of unschooling time for us to encourage people
to think that "ADHD kids" can't learn on their own as other kids can. Let us
be real: they can probably do it BETTER. So I have no interest in the
sighing of a mother who wants people here to say "There, there, of COURSE you
can't unschool because youre children have disABILITIES."
I didn't quit learning after I quit going to school.
-=--=- with your education, I expected much more from you-=--=-
That was an insult that revealed more of the prejudice of the writer than
anything else.
I expect no less of myself than to give the most helpful and honest advice I
can give when people need it. If we, this list and unschoolers, are going to
be blamed because one family can't understand unschooling and make it work,
it's worth pointing out that the behavior of children is sometimes genetic.
I see it in my kids, and I see it in other people's kids, and people here
tell stories frequently of seeing their own childhood situations (peeing
beds, food preferences, fears, whatever) in their children. I see people
talk about traits of bio parents in their adopted children.
I expect no less of myself than to care more about the feelings and happiness
of children than about the personal comfort levels of their resistant mothers.
And I DO expect unschoolers to try to dismantle their remaining prejudices
regarding formal education. I'm about to have three adults leave my house,
perhaps with no formal education whatsoever. Perhaps with "some college."
Perhaps as lawyers or doctors. Whatever it is, I HOPE I will have learned
enough not to value the kid with a college report card over one who chose to
put their money and energy into formal education. Either way will be their
choice.
My children will choose college or not the way they choose TV or not, candy
or not, to sleep early or late, to set an alarm or to sleep, whether to play
video games or not. And because they have practice making good decisions,
they will not make them spuriously or lightly or ignorantly. They won't go
to college to make me happy. They won't get into debt over their heads just
to please a grandmother who'll be dead before the debt's gone. And IF they
go to college, nobody there will suspect they learned to read on their own
from gaming magazines and card games. And IF they go to college, nobody
will say to them -=- with your education, I expected
much more from you-=-.
Sandra
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 3:33:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
questions? You question my motives, and you are way off base. I dont need a
"defense' against unschooling. Im not against it. Where did you get that
idea?
It seemed
defensive yourself. If something is "ruining my life" I aint gonna keep
doing it. Where are you getting your perceptions that unschooling is
ruining my life?? GOD, you think my life is bad now??.. you should have read
about it when they were in school.. Geez, this is a lot better.. but, still
not as good as it could be. I'm just trying to do the best I can.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> And it looks like Teresa's defense againstIf I didnt think unschooling would work, why would I still be here asking
> unschooling is that her kids have special problems and so it's not going to
>
> work.
questions? You question my motives, and you are way off base. I dont need a
"defense' against unschooling. Im not against it. Where did you get that
idea?
> She pretty much declared that answers other than Mary's andIs that or is that not exactly what happened?
> Anne's were going to be condescending criticism she could ignore.
It seemed
> to me to be saying that the advice from this list was ruining her family,Again, a huge misconception on your part. You seem to be feeling very
> and
> was obviously NOT working.
defensive yourself. If something is "ruining my life" I aint gonna keep
doing it. Where are you getting your perceptions that unschooling is
ruining my life?? GOD, you think my life is bad now??.. you should have read
about it when they were in school.. Geez, this is a lot better.. but, still
not as good as it could be. I'm just trying to do the best I can.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 3:33:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
that unschooling is not working for me? We still have challanges,
difficulties, and we are learning how to do "this" everyday.. but we're
trying.. I've not blamed my child once for my misunderstandings. When
have I done that? You seem to think I am trying to discount unschooling..
thats not the case at all.. Im trying to learn how it works for MY family.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I do not personally consider "ADD" or "ADHD" to be disabilities. And evenAgain, where are you getting the idea that I am "against" unschooling? Or
> in
> an extreme case of a set of those symptoms, saying unschooling won't work
> is
> a massive cop-out.
>
> If someone doesn't want to unschool, they shouldn't unschool. They
> shouldn't
> blame a child who's already been labelled defective and deficient for THEIR
>
> failure to understand helping kids to learn in their own way where they are
>
> today, right now.
>
that unschooling is not working for me? We still have challanges,
difficulties, and we are learning how to do "this" everyday.. but we're
trying.. I've not blamed my child once for my misunderstandings. When
have I done that? You seem to think I am trying to discount unschooling..
thats not the case at all.. Im trying to learn how it works for MY family.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]