OH, that's the answer
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 12:56:15 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< And let's give that over-taxed mom of
the special kid a break when maybe her fingers fly a little too fast
in defensive-mode on the keyboard when someone suggests that her kids
tantrums are her fault. >>
No one said "it's your fault".....it was suggested that genetics OR modeling
MAY be to blame.
I don't see how a person could feel it's their fault for genetics, even tough
it technically is. We aren't exactly in control of that, why would it make a
person feel blamed? sheesh.
And I think most all of us would admit to modeling some bad behavior to our
children at some point, or not modeling the best way to deal with certain
things.
I don't see why that would make a person ballistic. But hey, I guess it's
harder for some to admit their weaknesses.
I've certainly seen some rotten behavior from my children that looks EXACTLY
like one of the traits I've modeled for them...another reason to be more
aware.
And there has been story after story from parents here that are dealing with
special needs children.
So there's plenty of first hand experiences being shared.
And some of us that don't have incredibly difficult children just might have
experience with it anyway.....
I have experience with a brother that has FAS, was diagnosed with severe ADD
and is in and out of the prison system.
I have friends and family with very highs needs/intense personalities.
Just because a person does not have a child of their own with the exact same
difficulties, does not make them an idiot unworthy of contributing to the
discussion!!
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< And let's give that over-taxed mom of
the special kid a break when maybe her fingers fly a little too fast
in defensive-mode on the keyboard when someone suggests that her kids
tantrums are her fault. >>
No one said "it's your fault".....it was suggested that genetics OR modeling
MAY be to blame.
I don't see how a person could feel it's their fault for genetics, even tough
it technically is. We aren't exactly in control of that, why would it make a
person feel blamed? sheesh.
And I think most all of us would admit to modeling some bad behavior to our
children at some point, or not modeling the best way to deal with certain
things.
I don't see why that would make a person ballistic. But hey, I guess it's
harder for some to admit their weaknesses.
I've certainly seen some rotten behavior from my children that looks EXACTLY
like one of the traits I've modeled for them...another reason to be more
aware.
And there has been story after story from parents here that are dealing with
special needs children.
So there's plenty of first hand experiences being shared.
And some of us that don't have incredibly difficult children just might have
experience with it anyway.....
I have experience with a brother that has FAS, was diagnosed with severe ADD
and is in and out of the prison system.
I have friends and family with very highs needs/intense personalities.
Just because a person does not have a child of their own with the exact same
difficulties, does not make them an idiot unworthy of contributing to the
discussion!!
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 2:28:29 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< This is a perfect example of exactly why the special needs label is so
worthless here. When people talk about how the established facts change
- I bet they are thinking about the more nebulous kinds of diagnoses -
like ADD or ADHD or "learning disabled." >>
Yes, and I thought it was made very clear in earlier posts that we were
discussing these nebulous labels as NOT being true disabilities.
What Debbie was describing are very real disabilities.
But unschooling is STILL the answer in my opinion.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< This is a perfect example of exactly why the special needs label is so
worthless here. When people talk about how the established facts change
- I bet they are thinking about the more nebulous kinds of diagnoses -
like ADD or ADHD or "learning disabled." >>
Yes, and I thought it was made very clear in earlier posts that we were
discussing these nebulous labels as NOT being true disabilities.
What Debbie was describing are very real disabilities.
But unschooling is STILL the answer in my opinion.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 10:23:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
have a big old celebration that I am outta here. But, being the stubborn
bull headed person that I am (yeah, I, AM things.. and NOT the lists of
derogatory insults I've been accused of being)
I am well aware that lots of folks have misdiagnosed their children with
"nebulous labels" But for you to say "these nebulous labels as NOT being true
disabilities" is downright ridiculous. Its a slap in the face to parents who
children REALLY ARE ADHD or LD. You can pretend these conditions don't
exist, but it certainly doesn't help anyone deal with "what the hell ever"
you want to call them. There are physiological aspects of these disorders.
You know, that brain scan, CAT scan, MIR, medical research stuff they do?????
It's not that every child diagnosed with "these nebulous labels" is just
an active, high strung, high needs kid. Yeah, some of them are. but some of
them REALLY TRULY have malfunctions in their brains that they cannot control.
Its like saying. Oh, that kid could hear if he just tried hard enough. OR
more often on this list.. "that kid could hear if his parents just did the
right things to help him"
Have mercy on the next poor soul who tries to join this list.. I already see
a few newcomers whom I expect won't last long. No need to reply to this..
I'm gone.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Yes, and I thought it was made very clear in earlier posts that we wereYeah, I am tired, exhausted actually, of posting to this list. You guys can
> discussing these nebulous labels as NOT being true disabilities.
>
have a big old celebration that I am outta here. But, being the stubborn
bull headed person that I am (yeah, I, AM things.. and NOT the lists of
derogatory insults I've been accused of being)
I am well aware that lots of folks have misdiagnosed their children with
"nebulous labels" But for you to say "these nebulous labels as NOT being true
disabilities" is downright ridiculous. Its a slap in the face to parents who
children REALLY ARE ADHD or LD. You can pretend these conditions don't
exist, but it certainly doesn't help anyone deal with "what the hell ever"
you want to call them. There are physiological aspects of these disorders.
You know, that brain scan, CAT scan, MIR, medical research stuff they do?????
It's not that every child diagnosed with "these nebulous labels" is just
an active, high strung, high needs kid. Yeah, some of them are. but some of
them REALLY TRULY have malfunctions in their brains that they cannot control.
Its like saying. Oh, that kid could hear if he just tried hard enough. OR
more often on this list.. "that kid could hear if his parents just did the
right things to help him"
Have mercy on the next poor soul who tries to join this list.. I already see
a few newcomers whom I expect won't last long. No need to reply to this..
I'm gone.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 12:40:12 PM, grlynbl@... writes:
<< But for you to say "these nebulous labels as NOT being true
disabilities" is downright ridiculous. . . . .There are physiological aspects
of these disorders.
You know, that brain scan, CAT scan, MIR, medical research stuff they do?????
similar traits, that doesn't make it "a disorder."
Unschooling is probably the best thing you can do for kids with the traits
you're discussing.
<< It's not that every child diagnosed with "these nebulous labels" is just
an active, high strung, high needs kid. Yeah, some of them are. but some of
them REALLY TRULY have malfunctions in their brains that they cannot control.
It doesn't change that letting each of them learn in his own way at his own
pace is a great way to handle it!
<< Its like saying. Oh, that kid could hear if he just tried hard enough. OR
more often on this list.. "that kid could hear if his parents just did the
right things to help him">>
An LD or ADD kid can learn fine if parents don't try to play school with him.
A deaf kid can learn fine if communication is established with him and
someone helps him learn in his own way at his own pace.
<<Have mercy on the next poor soul who tries to join this list.. I already
see
a few newcomers whom I expect won't last long. No need to reply to this..
I'm gone.>>
From before any one person joins until long after, replies to a discussion
list like this are for the benefit of all the readers (1100 on this list?)
not just for one person.
Sandra
<< But for you to say "these nebulous labels as NOT being true
disabilities" is downright ridiculous. . . . .There are physiological aspects
of these disorders.
You know, that brain scan, CAT scan, MIR, medical research stuff they do?????
>>You can do brain scans on everyone. If a large percentage of people have
similar traits, that doesn't make it "a disorder."
Unschooling is probably the best thing you can do for kids with the traits
you're discussing.
<< It's not that every child diagnosed with "these nebulous labels" is just
an active, high strung, high needs kid. Yeah, some of them are. but some of
them REALLY TRULY have malfunctions in their brains that they cannot control.
>>And?
It doesn't change that letting each of them learn in his own way at his own
pace is a great way to handle it!
<< Its like saying. Oh, that kid could hear if he just tried hard enough. OR
more often on this list.. "that kid could hear if his parents just did the
right things to help him">>
An LD or ADD kid can learn fine if parents don't try to play school with him.
A deaf kid can learn fine if communication is established with him and
someone helps him learn in his own way at his own pace.
<<Have mercy on the next poor soul who tries to join this list.. I already
see
a few newcomers whom I expect won't last long. No need to reply to this..
I'm gone.>>
From before any one person joins until long after, replies to a discussion
list like this are for the benefit of all the readers (1100 on this list?)
not just for one person.
Sandra
zenmomma *
>What Debbie was describing are very real disabilities.Well, it's not the answer for the disabilities.
>But unschooling is STILL the answer in my opinion.
It *is* probably the best choice for allowing an already restricted (by his
body) child the ability to learn and do and experience what he can out of
life without arbitrary schoo/society imposed restrictions.
Life is good.
~Mary
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zenmomma *
>>No need to reply to this.. I'm gone.>>Well, if no one minds, I'll reply to the ideas stated here, and not the
poster, here or not. Just like I always do. :o)
>>But for you to say "these nebulous labels as NOT being true disabilities"children REALLY ARE ADHD or LD>>
>>is downright ridiculous. Its a slap in the face to parents who
I think those letters are absolutely disabling conditions if a child is in
school. Whatever brain pattern and temperment those kinds of kids came into
the world with have been proven not to fit with the school model. Those kids
will indeed need help getting through a regular school day.
BUT...when you take school out of the picture, when you try to custom make a
life towards helping a particular child live in their world and their body,
then it's not a disabling factor in their life. It's just their life.
>>You can pretend these conditions don't exist, but it certainly doesn'tShifting our perceptions and strongly held beliefs is hard. Each one of us
>>help anyone deal with "what the hell ever"you want to call them.>>
here has done it to a certain degree. I think that sharing story after story
of how school given labels stopped mattering after a certain time out of
school are very helpful. JMHO based on years of observation, experience and
feedback.
>>There are physiological aspects of these disorders. You know, that brainI've never heard of a physiological test for LD,ADD, ADHD, or DIS.
>>scan, CAT scan, MIR, medical research stuff they do?????>>
Everything I've seen is always a symptom checklist. Can anyone elighten me?
>>It's not that every child diagnosed with "these nebulous labels" is justNope. They're just kids. They're just Conor and Casey and Roxana and Jake
>>an active, high strung, high needs kid.>>
and Kirby and.....
>>Yeah, some of them are. but some of them REALLY TRULY have malfunctions inIf we want to say they can't control anything, they why bother trying?
>>their brains that they cannot control.>>
They're just kids. Let's not write them off just yet.
>>I'm gone.Bye.
>
>Teresa>>
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/03 6:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
all the classic symptoms that come with the label. But he was sooo into
electronics a few years back. Loved to take apart telephones and radios and
put them back together. I got my hands on an old erector set for Christmas
and he loved that. No directions just making things on his own. So creative
and passionate. He has always had his own "junk pile" his parents did allow
that. He collected scraps from everything to put into new "inventions".
The school system was another story, of course he didn't fit into that mold.
Couldn't sit still for hours couldn't finish reports on time, etc., etc. But
his parents were so convinced that school had the answers. He is now in high
school. Believes himself to be stupid and the family and school are working
toward training him to hold a job at McDs.
He could have been so much more, he was/is such a caring intelligent
individual. He just wasn't allowed to follow his passion because it
interfered with his education. It stood in the way of him learning long
division by age 18.
Maybe someday he will rediscover that passion that the system took away.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma@... writes:
> I think those letters are absolutely disabling conditions if a child is inThat is such a true statement. My nephew was labeled ADHD, and he did have
> school. Whatever brain pattern and temperment those kinds of kids came into
>
> the world with have been proven not to fit with the school model. Those
> kids
> will indeed need help getting through a regular school day.
>
> BUT...when you take school out of the picture, when you try to custom make
> a
> life towards helping a particular child live in their world and their body,
>
> then it's not a disabling factor in their life. It's just their life.
>
>
all the classic symptoms that come with the label. But he was sooo into
electronics a few years back. Loved to take apart telephones and radios and
put them back together. I got my hands on an old erector set for Christmas
and he loved that. No directions just making things on his own. So creative
and passionate. He has always had his own "junk pile" his parents did allow
that. He collected scraps from everything to put into new "inventions".
The school system was another story, of course he didn't fit into that mold.
Couldn't sit still for hours couldn't finish reports on time, etc., etc. But
his parents were so convinced that school had the answers. He is now in high
school. Believes himself to be stupid and the family and school are working
toward training him to hold a job at McDs.
He could have been so much more, he was/is such a caring intelligent
individual. He just wasn't allowed to follow his passion because it
interfered with his education. It stood in the way of him learning long
division by age 18.
Maybe someday he will rediscover that passion that the system took away.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**The school system was another story, of course he didn't fit into that
mold.
Couldn't sit still for hours couldn't finish reports on time, etc., etc.
But
his parents were so convinced that school had the answers. He is now in
high
school. Believes himself to be stupid and the family and school are
working
toward training him to hold a job at McDs. **
He couldn't at least work at Radio Shack? The parents really believe
that report cards predict our fate?
Betsy
mold.
Couldn't sit still for hours couldn't finish reports on time, etc., etc.
But
his parents were so convinced that school had the answers. He is now in
high
school. Believes himself to be stupid and the family and school are
working
toward training him to hold a job at McDs. **
He couldn't at least work at Radio Shack? The parents really believe
that report cards predict our fate?
Betsy
zenmomma *
>>>He could have been so much more, he was/is such a caring intelligentindividual. He just wasn't allowed to follow his passion because it
interfered with his education.>>
He still CAN be so much more. He can be Who He Is in spite of school and the
negative feedback he's receiving there. It's not impossible. Sometimes all
it takes is one caring voice to change a life. Maybe that voice is yours.
I'm not saying to contradict his parents, but to be that voice he needs to
hear.
>>Maybe someday he will rediscover that passion that the system took away.>>My nephew, Erik, had all the issues you describe and more. School was hell
and they had social services involved because the administrators were so
convinced of this child's inherant "badness." With his mother's support, he
homeschooled high school and then opted out completely at 16. Took him years
to come out of his funk. He thought he was stupid. He's brilliant. He
thought he had no talent. He's an accomplished artist. He was dark and goth
and pierced and depressed.
I talked to his mom yesterday. At 19 he has just been accepted to study at a
Buddhist retreat Northern CA. He has found himself again. It's inspiring.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/03 1:28:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma@... writes:
> He still CAN be so much more. He can be Who He Is in spite of school and theIt is hard when I now live so far away.
>
> negative feedback he's receiving there. It's not impossible. Sometimes all
> it takes is one caring voice to change a life. Maybe that voice is yours.
> I'm not saying to contradict his parents, but to be that voice he needs to
> hear.
>
>
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>It is hard when I now live so far away.>Email, phone calls, letters, books from Amazon, gifts from electronics
stores, gift certificates to Radio Shack...A cool aunt who pays you good
attention is a gift. Hard does not equal impossible. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/17/03 3:45:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma@... writes:
> . Hard does not equal impossible. :o)You are so right....thanks for the ideas.
>
>
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]