[email protected]

Tia
Yes, the older ones do seem jealous, although I think there is more to
it. They were brainwashed and it will take time to be unbrainwashed. We
now have a foster child who goes to a specialized school. I am not sure
why because we haven't been told much yet. He has been here for a week.
He is on heavy med's though for ADHD and to sleep at night. He keeps
busy every moment with projects; painting, building with anything he can
find, playing nintendo, reading, etc. He has himself on his own
schedule. I'm here for backup:) He's 10. Our youngest is 12 going on 20.
So far so good. My kids really like the new Sims Park and learning about
economy, animals, etc. that way.They stay on for hours. I haven't been
on it yet. We also talk constantly about what ever interests us so they
learn a lot that way, too. We just finished a project on Two Towers that
they liked. We are very unstructured here. We eat when we feel like it.
My eldest daughter and her fiance who don't live with us are on Weight
Watchers. Since my 12 year old goes there every week just about, he has
been learning about that. He is going with the flow of not eating tons
of candy. It has been his choice. My 14 year old has decided to quit
therapy after 4 years. It is a little scary yet, he seems much more
balanced lately. He has taken up cigerette smoking:( He got a ticket
last week and the police called me at 9:30 at night to tell me they had
talked to him. It is illegal to smoke in public under 18 here. I learned
something. I was glad he wasn't calling to tell me my son was arrested
or worse. I was still snippy with the officer which I do and then punish
myself for. I wish I wasn't such a b-word sometimes. At least it was one
of the nicer officers. My son has bipolar and has done a great job
learning how to express himself in healthier ways. Alot of this happened
after he was out of public school. He has friends that smoke cigerettes
and stay away from the stronger stuff. I admit I am not full of joy to
be going through the teen years again for the umteenth time. I am not
super strict. I figure that they know a lot already and this is their
experience. We talk all the time about everything except what they don't
want to tell me:) My 14 year old tells me he feels guilty and telling me
stuff relieves his anxiety. I usually let them know they aren't really
doing anything others haven't done and guide them to be safe. Anyone who
has kids knows kids do what they feel like doing, especially teens. I am
happy he feels he can talk to me or one of his siblings. We are a close
family. I am proud of that. We are givers and not so good at receiving.
We are working on that now. I've rambled on long enough:) Michele



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Hello my name is Lynda - I have been reading your emails for two days now; you all are a prolific bunch, so I feel I have a general idea of the direction of this Yahoo Loop. I fear to post an idea, but I will try, and brace myself for the replies! My idea is in regard to unlimited access to television, computer, gameboy, etc. If we let our kids have unlimited access to "junk" tv, etc, don't your think they will take advantage of it in the same way they will take advantage of "junk" food, if we stocked our pantry full of an unlimited supply. Isn't it our responsibility to offer a healthy assortment of food from which to choose, including some not-so-healthy treats, to enjoy on occasion, and in the same way, isn't it our responsibility to provide a healthy assortment of entertainment options. I realize this is hard to do in the case of television, unless you plain just don't own one, but with games and cd-roms, we do have more ability to offer a nice array of options, in a limited supply, so that outdoor play and face-to-face social interaction (more organic human activities), are the more available option, and I would strongly argue, the healthier option. I do believe there is much value in the electronic world, and pleasure in the enjoyment of delicious treats, but is there a way to offer these, without the attractive packaging and addictive quality that they offer to both adults and children, the quality that marketers work hard to improve in order to persuade us to buy more!

Okay, I'm ducking my head waiting for the comments to fly! - Lynda (who thought she was "unschooling" until she stumbled on this group!)

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 2:30 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 3027


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: What about money?
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
2. Re: conferences, learning
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
3. Re: More TV questions? now Waldorf & plastic toy
From: Andrea <andrea@...>
4. Re: re:Waldorf Toys
From: "Flicker-N-Suds" <craun@...>
5. Re: unschooling in Ohio
From: Barb Eaton <homemama@...>
6. Re: unschooling in Ohio
From: Barb Eaton <homemama@...>
7. RE: re:Waldorf Toys
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
8. Re: re: special needs children...
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
9. Welcome Back!
From: Barb Eaton <homemama@...>
10. Re: school/unschooling
From: michele-nappi@...
11. Re: re:Waldorf Toys
From: genant2@...
12. Re: re: special needs children...
From: grlynbl@...
13. Re: re: special needs children...
From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
14. Re: re: special needs children...
From: grlynbl@...
15. Foster kids/adopted kids
From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
16. Special needs article
From: "AnneO <ohman@...>" <ohman@...>
17. Re: re:Waldorf Toys
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
18. Re: school/unschooling
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
19. Re: Special needs article
From: Kelly <apmomto4@...>
20. Re: special needs children...
From: "AnneO <ohman@...>" <ohman@...>
21. Re: helping with household stuff
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
22. Re: Special needs article
From: "AnneO <ohman@...>" <ohman@...>
23. Re: re:Waldorf Toys
From: SandraDodd@...
24. Re: school/unschooling
From: SandraDodd@...
25. Re: re: special needs children...
From: SandraDodd@...


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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:50:13 -0800
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: What about money?


On Tuesday, February 11, 2003, at 10:11 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Because we've let them pick food since they were little, more often
> than not
> they don't want anything.


A slight rewording and this applies to all aspects of life with kids.

Because we've let them pick whatever since they were little, more often
than not they are willing to accept it on those occasions when we truly
can't let them pick.


Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org



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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:58:39 -0800
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: conferences, learning

Nay.

Usually the people who have the least interesting things to say are
those who dominate the panel discussions. It is some kind of law <G>!

-pam

On Tuesday, February 11, 2003, at 11:46 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> Panel discussion this year? Yay? Nay?
>
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org



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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:00:27 -0400
From: Andrea <andrea@...>
Subject: Re: More TV questions? now Waldorf & plastic toy


>http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/coldturkey.htm

This is scary stuff. My kids would be scared to leave home, not knowing
what would be gone next. After reading more on their web site I would
guess the tv and computer.

I like this line:
> If you are looking for support and information on home and/or
> un-schooling based on a Waldorf Inspired Curriculum, you have come to the
> right place!

And the official answers are given by a Ph.D. My father has a Ph.D. in
education and spent just about zip-all time interacting with his kids.

Donna Andrea





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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:18:31 -0500
From: "Flicker-N-Suds" <craun@...>
Subject: Re: re:Waldorf Toys

Or my almost 6 year old.
Pam G.
>>>>>
LOL I won't be surprised if that is me in 1.5 years. My family though does give me grief.

Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
www.flicker-n-suds.com
Welcome to the world of Sinful Suds, Luscious Lotions, Funky Fibers and MORE!
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:33:15 -0500
From: Barb Eaton <homemama@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling in Ohio

Ang,
Where are you? I'm in Columbus if that helps. I'll check out your link
in the morning when I get a chance.


Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill




on 2/12/03 3:28 PM, megamom08 <megamom08@...> at megamom08@...
wrote:

> Unschooling in Ohio is going well. Not much local support that I
> could find in the past year. All the resources I found had dead
> links/emails or no response. I made an Ohio group and a webpage if
> anyone is interested in checking it out....
>
> UNO Unschoolers Network of Ohio
> http://hometown.aol.com/unolist/index.html
>
> Ang
>
> SAHM to
> 10yo Megan Elizabeth,
> 3yo Ashlyn Olivia
> 18mo Christian James



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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:33:23 -0500
From: Barb Eaton <homemama@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling in Ohio

See you there. :-)

Barb E
"We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty,
charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures
that we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open."

- Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India




on 2/12/03 4:02 PM, amycats2@... at amycats2@... wrote:
>>
>
> I joined the list...thanks for creating it! I'm in Toledo and always looking
> for unschooling families.
> Amy Kagey



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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:42:51 -0500
From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>
Subject: RE: re:Waldorf Toys

This is horrible! I can't conceive of lying to Brianna like this! This is a
total lack of respect for the child, the child's likes, possessions. I would
never do this. Brianna is a collector; rocks, small statues, feathers,
shells. She likes to collect, she chooses to collect.those are her choices.
Her room is a mess, (my home isn't to far behind!) That will pass. Once in a
while I'll say something..when she 'finishes' a project and everything is on
my table or kitchen floor and there's a danger to the puppy, but to trick,
lie, steal, collude..that's just wrong! There are so many issues here. I don
't want Brianna leaving people in my home w/o my permission or when no one
is home, I don't want Brianna deciding what I should have or get rid of; I
don't want Brianna to lie to me. I don't want her to trick me. How can I do
these things to her? How is she to feel secure?
How can a parent do those things w/o the child feeling betrayed? All of
those plastic toys? Pass them on. For the future? Talk to your child about
choices. I have w/ Brianna. She still wants some things that I roll my eyes
(figuratively) over, but her choices now are much better. Tickets to plays,
(We live near some wonderful theaters), clothes, healthy, well chosen toys
for her puppy..and she's now the proud owner of a savings bond.
I've only lied to Brianna once, it had to do w/ something her bio mom did.
I would never steal from her. This is criminal.
Janis (whose still learning)
BTW.I was going to meet w/ a mom that does this form of Homeschooling..this
saves me an hour!

-----Original Message-----
From: zenmomma * [mailto:zenmomma@...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:Waldorf Toys





>>There are actually How -To's on getting rid of a child's entire collection
>>of toys, here:
http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/coldturkey.htm >>

Oh yuck! They not only recommend taking away all the kids toys, they
advocate lying about it and saying the "magical toy fairy" came
and did it. Here's a quote: "The secret is, if "you" are not
responsible...and a fairy (or elf, or gnome) did it...then it MUST be best!"
But a
fairy DID NOT really do it and the parent IS responsible. Where does that
leave us?

>>I'd been looking into the Waldorf approach...seems to come with the AP
territory...but this sort of thing is enough to turn me off
completely. >>

Back in my former schooling-mom life, I sent my son to a Waldorf inspired
school. It was very dogmatic and controlling. There was
only one right way for children to "progress" and they apparently had the
answer. It was NOT a nurturing time for us.

Life is good.

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:51:01 -0500
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: re: special needs children...

on 2/12/03 6:32 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> This destructive behavior usually happens so fast, we
> cant stop it. To "channel" thier aggression elsewhere would require CONSTANT
> supervision., which seems unreasonable for kids thier age..( and really,
> impossible)

How does talking to them about it go? Does it end up having the general feel
of you telling them what they need to do to do better and them agreeing?

Or are you there as their partner? To help them learn to be more aware of
their emotions and the build up of their emotions before they get to the
explosion stage. You think it's fast. They probably even think it's fast.
But there is a build up that they could be helped to be more aware of.

I think you need to forget their ages and what is reasonable or not
reasonable. They are where they are and you need to be there to help them
get where they'd like to be.

Ask them if they want help in not destroying game controllers. How they
respond is going to depend on your motivations. If you are focused on
stopping them from destroying things, they're going to sense that your help
is about controlling them. If you are focused on helping them gain skills
that they'd like to have, they'll be more open.

You could suggest that they not play unless you can be there with them.
(That won't work if they are sensing you want to control them. They might
think it's a good idea if they sense that you want to help them.)

There's other suggestions you could make but it will all dependon whether
they see you as their partner or the protector of the stuff in the house. It
might also take some extra work to convince them that you really do want to
help them if your interactions with them have always been about changing
their behavior to behavior you think is acceptable.

> But, I also know that if I dont encourage and sometimes even
> insist that he go somewhere or try something new ,he would never know that he
> DOES like it. Is that wrong????

Well I think that a good outcome to something "bad" doesn't justify doing
something bad. Lots of kids have terrible times in school and end up
"successful" and thankful that they were pushed. But it doesn't justify
pushing in my opinion.

What does he want you to do? Ask him now while he isn't faced with going
somewhere he doesn't want to go. Does he want you to make him go? And ask
him again after you've tried out his answer a couple of times. Ask him to
think about how he feels now that you pushing or not pushing. What does he
want you to do? It would help him be more aware of his feelings.

> I dont "make" him try new foods.. but I
> have paid him to taste something.. Lots of times he finds out that he likes
> it!!!!

What about the times he doesn't like it? Again, ask him what he'd like you
to do. Point out the times he has really liked something after being made to
eat it and the times he hasn't.

And if he doesn't want to be urged, what difference does it make? If you had
very limited tastes and people kept urging you to eat stuff you didn't want
to, wouldn't it be annoying?

Joyce



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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:02:39 -0500
From: Barb Eaton <homemama@...>
Subject: Welcome Back!

Welcome back Mary. I'm really looking forward to see you again at the
conference. I was in your small break out group at the last one. :-)


Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill





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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:01:12 -0500 (EST)
From: michele-nappi@...
Subject: Re: school/unschooling

I feel like I am pulled in many directions lately. I have an 18 year old
who has been feeling very depressed. She is on med's and refuses
counseling. She is determined to get a highschool diploma. Nothing else
that has been offered suits her. I am supporting her wishes and watching
her struggle. I went in to her 504 meeting with her, that turned out to
not be a 504 meeting because the principle thought it wasn't one. This
principle told my daughter that there weren't any funds to help her -
that she (principle) has to go beg for money for the school. They always
say that by the way... We do have a strong ally who is assisting my
daughter. Without this person - who is constantly overstressed, having
migranes, running to the nurses office, and calling her support people -
my daughter would not be getting a diploma from public school. The
principle mentioned something like "we can't have kids making up their
own schooling." My daughter had a suggestion on how she could best be
taught. I really "couldn't hold it" any longer and uttered "heaven
forbid a child would have something to do with deciding how they are
educated." It didn't go over very well.
I feel very frustrated because this daughter has been feeling suicidal -
school knows and she is getting help - has been on a 504 for depression
for atleast 3 years, etc. School is about money, I know...
I wanted to come home and bathe in unschooling territory. For some
reason the older kids now 20 and 21 keep pestering me about "teaching."
I feel obligated to explain to them once again what is happening as far
as unteaching their younger siblings goes. My 21 year old was very upset
about thinking the 12 year old should be writing essays to prepare for
college. I get so frustrated I don't know what to say. I told her that
if the 12 year old decides to go to a school/college he will be ready
because it will be his choice, he will be prepared, etc. She then
screamed at me. She said I don't know how to talk to people. I mentioned
the fact that he is 12 and has a while to decide about any form of
higher education he chooses. She said that is not enough structure. I
tried to explain that she is correct. There isn't a lot of structure in
the way I am unteaching. I write down everything they do - which is alot
- every day. I personally think they are learning more than ever
especially my now 15 year old who has been labeled dyslexic and bipolar.
They are right though, it doesn't look anything like public school and I
for one am very grateful for that. Michele



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:04:58 EST
From: genant2@...
Subject: Re: re:Waldorf Toys

In a message dated 2/13/03 7:17:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
craun@... writes:

> Or my almost 6 year old.
> Pam G.
> >>>>>
> LOL I won't be surprised if that is me in 1.5 years. My family though does
> give me grief.
>
>

My family lives so far away....sometimes that is great.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:04:46 EST
From: grlynbl@...
Subject: Re: re: special needs children...

In a message dated 2/12/03 9:15:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:

> Maybe you are right, but I wonder if part of the problem for you is what he
> is interested in. What if his only interest was working complicated
> mathematical problems? Wouldn't that be something to brag about! Or what
> if he did nothing but program computers? Somehow it is harder to tell the
> world, (and friends, family, and neighbors) that "all my kid does is play
> nintendo"! There is pressure from those outside the homeschooling world to
> "prove" that homeschooling produces kids who excel in all things academic,
> not in all things considered by most to be recreational.
>

Nah, I dont have any predisposed ideas about what is "good" or valuable to be
interested in. To me, ANYTHING he wants to do is valuable. And no less
valuable than 'academic" stuff. Yes, the world in general, and even our
close family and friends puts much more value on "book learning" But as for
me, it makes no difference if hes does math problems or finishes a level on
Mario.. or pumps up the tires on his bike. What matters most to me is a
smile on his face, and a sense of worth and accomplishment in his heart.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:41:10 -0800
From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
Subject: Re: re: special needs children...

>>>>>>>snip-----> Nah, I dont have any predisposed ideas about what is
"good" or valuable to be interested in. To me, ANYTHING he wants to do is
valuable.>>>>>>>>

Sorry, I misunderstood. It sounded like you needed him to be interested in
things other than what he IS interested in.
snip>>>>>>>>>I think folks who do not deal with this type of behavior do not
understand that these kids REALLY will not take the initiative on "getting
interested" in things.. Yes, Ethan does have some interests ( very
limited)>>>>>>>>>

Well, then, can it be OK for him to only have a few interests for now?

Mary Ellen





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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:24:23 EST
From: grlynbl@...
Subject: Re: re: special needs children...

In a message dated 2/13/03 12:45:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:

> Well, then, can it be OK for him to only have a few interests for now?

Yes.. the concern is not over how many or what interests he has. The concern
comes over the fact that even the stuff he likes and enjoys causes him
frustration and emotional upset. I talked about the video game stuff.. But
really, it could be anything.. He loves biking, but often he will come in
angry, crying, upset, because his bike is not cooperating the way he wants it
to. .Maybe some piece of accessory is not working just right. maybe the wind
is blowing too hard.. maybe no one wants to ride with him . He loves jumping
on the trampoline,, but he could come in with similar complaints. It seems
he is only satisfied and happy with even his limited interests for a very
short time. Then he gets upset and angry or sad.. he feels like "nothing
works for him" , like everyone and everything is against him. And, the
other concern is that how can he know what might interest him, what he may
really excel at or enjoy if he won't try new things.. Im not talking about
overload here.. Im talking ANY new thing.. heck, maybe trying something new
once a month, or even every 2 months But as of now, he resists anything
"new"

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:24:31 -0600
From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
Subject: Foster kids/adopted kids

Hi Sheila,

My 5 kids were adopted, 3 through the foster system. We had a total of 14
foster kids so the behaviors you describe are very familiar to me. I think
it is important to remember that often these kids are spending so much
energy protecting themselves from perceived threats (like "I love you and
want you to be part of the family") that they don't have the energy left to
learn new behaviors. I believe that stressing kids to "improve" before they
feel safe and have developed a bond is a recipe for disaster.

Marsie came to us at 1 day of age. Her bio mother is retarded and
psychotic. Her bio father is "slow" and abusive. 2 siblings had lived in
our home previously, both were retarded with attachment problems and one was
psychotic. At ages 2 and 3, these kids had to be placed in special
therapeutic residences because they were so destructive and out of control
(sleeping only a couple of hours per night, attacking other kids without any
known provocation, etc.).

At 5 months of age, Marsie still couldn't turn over and just seemed somewhat
"behind". I took her to an "occupational" therapist who gave me the best
advice I've ever been given. She said "Don't worry about dirt or germs with
this kid. Let her do what she needs to do to learn." So Marsie grew older
with ready access to anything she wanted, even the kitchen garbage (we just
washed her good when she was through), even fire ants (she can pick them up
and let them crawl all over her and never gets bit). Marsie is now 6yo and
just smart as a whip. She is learning to read off and on and has been
playing with multiplication stuff the last couple of days. She does have a
temper but rarely completely loses it.

She is so far past where her siblings were at her age. I truly believe it
is because she felt safe and accepted. So as a foster mom, adoptive mom,
unschooling mom and Master's level therapist, I would advise that you work
only on your relationship with your son. Do nothing, absolutely nothing,
that will damage it.

Julie



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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:45:24 -0000
From: "AnneO <ohman@...>" <ohman@...>
Subject: Special needs article

I've had the most wonderful and overwhelming requests for my
article...It's amazing to me how many people can relate to
unschooling a unique, quirky, out-of-sync child. Thanks to all who
have written and asked to read it.

I wanted to write here again to let those interested know that I have
been asked to speak on this topic (unschooling *out-of-sync*
children) at three conferences: in Connecticut, Maryland and South
Carolina.

If you are in or near any of those states, and are interested in
conference details, let me know.

I invest my computer time at the message boards at unschooling.com.
So if anyone would like to pop over there and read the special needs
folders, we always have wonderful conversations going on. Right now
there's a great conversation in progress about Indigo Children.

Be Well ~
Anne




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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:33:13 -0800
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
Subject: Re: re:Waldorf Toys

> BTW.I was going to meet w/ a mom that does this form of
Homeschooling..this
> saves me an hour!

You might want to consider still meeting her. I know people who like a lot
of the Waldorf ideas but don't go in for their rigidity. My daughter, for
instance, is attracted to all the nature, art, and music stuff that they do.
She also doesn't care much for the plastic stuff, but she would never take
the stuff away from her kids. She buys wooden toys and simple dolls for
them but also things that they want that she doesn't much like. (And she's
the one who was still nursing her daughter at age 6.)
Tia



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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:39:48 -0800
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
Subject: Re: school/unschooling

> I wanted to come home and bathe in unschooling territory. For some
> reason the older kids now 20 and 21 keep pestering me about "teaching."
> I feel obligated to explain to them once again what is happening as far
> as unteaching their younger siblings goes. My 21 year old was very upset
> about thinking the 12 year old should be writing essays to prepare for
> college. I get so frustrated I don't know what to say. I told her that
> if the 12 year old decides to go to a school/college he will be ready
> because it will be his choice, he will be prepared, etc. She then
> screamed at me. She said I don't know how to talk to people. I mentioned
> the fact that he is 12 and has a while to decide about any form of
> higher education he chooses. She said that is not enough structure. I
> tried to explain that she is correct. There isn't a lot of structure in
> the way I am unteaching. I write down everything they do - which is alot
> - every day. I personally think they are learning more than ever
> especially my now 15 year old who has been labeled dyslexic and bipolar.
> They are right though, it doesn't look anything like public school and I
> for one am very grateful for that. Michele

Are these older kids half-siblings? Did they go to school? I'm wondering
if they're really jealous without realizing it. They could be covering up
their jealousy by focusing on their "concerns". You can tell them why
you're doing things the way you are with the younger ones, but you may just
have to pull the, "I'm the parent. When you have kids you can raise them
the way you think is best. I wish I had unschooled you as well, but we
can't change the past." Or something along those lines.
Tia



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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:53:55 -0500
From: Kelly <apmomto4@...>
Subject: Re: Special needs article

I would be very interested in your Maryland conference? (Would it happen to be at the MHEA Conference in Annapolis, Maryland on the 5th of April? We're already registered for this conference, and a good friend of mine is one of the speakers)

I'm the mom of the autistic son. He'll be 9 in May and we're using only a math curriculum with him, but your email really gave me food for thought as to whether we even need to do that with him. (I don't use any curriculum with my almost 12 year old daughter).

Thank you in advance for any help you can offer!!

Kelly


----- Original Message -----
From: AnneO <ohman@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 1:45 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Special needs article


I've had the most wonderful and overwhelming requests for my
article...It's amazing to me how many people can relate to
unschooling a unique, quirky, out-of-sync child. Thanks to all who
have written and asked to read it.

I wanted to write here again to let those interested know that I have
been asked to speak on this topic (unschooling *out-of-sync*
children) at three conferences: in Connecticut, Maryland and South
Carolina.

If you are in or near any of those states, and are interested in
conference details, let me know.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:00:17 -0000
From: "AnneO <ohman@...>" <ohman@...>
Subject: Re: special needs children...

Teresa ~ how do you handle it when he feels like everything is
against him?

What does your son do that makes him SHINE?

A difficult and challenging aspect of children like this is the fact
that the reality of their body's capabilities does not match the
vision they hold in their mind.

The KEY is to direct them to those things that they CAN do and do
well. Those things that make them SHINE.

In Carol Stock Kranowitz's book *The Out of Sync Child,* she says
something like, "Even the best-loved child in the world will feel
unloved." I know what she's talking about. It was my life. It's my
son's life.

Yes, they feel like many things are against them. How you handle
that is key.

It is imperative that you don't just write it off. It is important
to acknowledge how he feels. How frustrated he is. And, yes, how
difficult life can be for him at times.

But then it's important to move on. Don't dwell on the negative. Go
on to something where he can SHINE.

WHen my son is totally frustrated, I'll hug him and say, "It's a
difficult job to be Jake, isn't it?" He'll collapse in my arms and
cry. And then I'll let him know that I think he's wonderful, and I
think he's doing a great job at being Jake.

And then we move on to those things that make him Jake. We'll talk
about his comic strips that he draws, or his monsters. We'll talk
about his video games, or the book he's reading. Or we'll curl up
together and read a book or watch a movie.

There is a lot of stress and anxiety in these children's lives. Do
what you can to move away from that and move towards the Joy and the
Love and the Strengths.

There is no need to push anything new. Let him stay where he is
comfortable. Go to his world, in his place of comfort. Meet him
there and get to know him there. Let him enlighten your world and
let him know that his unique perspective on life enlightens your own
life.

Time helps, also. My son would try to draw a couple of years ago,
and get so frustrated and cry. A friend of mine told me the same
story about her 5 year old son. He would draw something and take it
to her and angrily say, "Would you just throw this away because I
HATE IT!!"

It's what I said: their vision does not match their physical
capabilities.

My son stopped drawing and began working with clay (Sculpey). He was
AMAZING with it. He made Pokemon after Pokemon with it, and they
were WONDERFUL.

This helped his confidence, and his motor skills. After awhile, he
tried drawing again, and was better at it. So he kept drawing. Now
he's a wonderful artist and creates his own comic strips.

I think most parents approach a frustrated child in the wrong
manner. They always try to fix what went wrong. That's not what the
child wants ~ especially these perfectionist children. They want to
fix it themselves. And right now, they just want to be frustrated
with it.

They are learning. They are learning about the world. They are
learning about themselves. They are learning how to handle having
video games in their home. They are learning how to handle
frustration and challenge.

How YOU handle it and approach it will be their *teacher.*

~ Anne



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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:04:37 -0800
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: helping with household stuff

Kathy - I like the way this kind of stuff is talked about in the "How
to Talk so Kids will Listen and...." books.

I'm not much of a housekeeper (understatement of the year) and my kids
don't get asked to do much, since I'm not doing much either. But - if
they are walking through the living room to get clean laundry off the
floor, wearing a wet towel from their shower, and if they drop the wet
towel on the couch and put on their clean clothes right there - I will
say: "Wet towel?" and they'll pick it up and hang it up. If they don't
- if they get distracted - I'll just do it.

I often say: "Hey Roxana - can you find time in the next hour or so to
do a couple of things to help get the house under control?" She'll
decided what needs doing (she's 15) or she'll ask me what I want and
I'll say: "Well - unload the dishwasher and fold that laundry on the
living room floor and put it on each person's bed." Often I'll ask her
to declutter some specific area of the house - like clear off and put
away all the stuff on the dining room table. Sometimes she is too
involved in what she's doing and she forgets. Gee, kind of like ME!!!
So I remind her and she does it -- or if she's run out of time, then I
just let it go.

She's the most cooperative of my three kids, in this regard. That's
because she LIKES things to be more orderly - I'm sure she'd help even
more if I was into it <G>.

I'd LOVE to have a clean orderly house - but I can't drag myself away
from talking to all of YOU to get around to making that happen!!!

-pam


On Tuesday, February 11, 2003, at 06:01 PM, Kathy Evans wrote:

> Thankyou Joyce for your reply. I respect your
> opinion very much. I have not read the archives yet
> and hope I am not repeating specific topics too much.
> I dont know how you have arrived at the opinion that
> the chores belong to the parents. It cant be this
> black and white. If this is so, then when does that
> change? Sandra mentioned something about being too
> tired to cook one eve. and that her kids were old
> enough to make something for themselves anyway. Maybe
> the distinction is that we dont have a right to demand
> anything of anyone. But cant we expect a little help.
> Taking some responsibility for oneself? "Expect" may
> even be too harsh a word. But cant we explain that
> (for example, if this were the case) mom or dad have
> xy &z going on and that we cant do all that needs to
> be done and still keep our sweet and happy tones
> going? OK, I guess the answer is that we have to be
> willing to deal with a NO from them. And then they may
> have to deal with certain consequences like their
> laundry doesnt get done or whatever. Am I on the right
> track?
> I dont really understand how a child in a family is
> not already on the team just by virtue of the fact
> that he/she is a part of the family. ( I believe that
> we all choose very purposefully where to
> incarnate--not that "they did not ask to be born and
> therfore they are not responsible"--like they are
> innocent bystanders or something). Are you saying that
> if they want to eat in their room and dont want to
> pick up the fallen food and then there is a big ant
> infestation that they dont need to take responsibility
> for that? I dont think thats what you mean. I did read
> some of Sandras stuff in the archives related to this.
> That it all depends on whats going on in the family
> etc, who has the time and energy to help clean up the
> mess. We dont want to trash our kids for the sake of
> an ant infestation. I love that point she made. I'm
> just talking about teaching responsibility for ones
> actions. I dont think its a given that the parents are
> responsible for everything. Probably nature will take
> its course in these instances, over time, as it does
> everwhere and the kids will strive to be responsible
> -"because that is their nature".
>> Anyway, thanks.
> Kathy
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
> list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
> an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org



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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:10:03 -0000
From: "AnneO <ohman@...>" <ohman@...>
Subject: Re: Special needs article

Kelly <apmomto4@c...> wrote:
> I would be very interested in your Maryland conference? (Would it
happen to be at the MHEA Conference in Annapolis, Maryland on the 5th
of April?<

God, I hope not!! I'm not ready!! I think it's in June.

If you e-mail me, I'll send you the info as soon as I have it.

The important thing to remember about unschooling math is that it's
not doing nothing. Sometimes it's thinking out loud, talking out
loud, figuring out answsers yourself out loud. It's conversations
about patterns, numbers. It's doing puzzles, computer games,
blocks. It's weighing produce at the grocery store and calculating
the cost. It's saving for something you love, figuring tax, also.

I'll always remember when my son came to me and told me he had thirty-
some dollars and some cents. I went into his room and looked at his
bed...he had piles of coins all over it. I never sat down with him
and told him the value of the coins. He learned from using them. He
learned from gumball machines (well, they're not gumballs anymore,
and they're not a penny anymore either!)! He learned from using.
From living. And he poured out his bank and counted all his coins
because he wanted to know if he had enough money for something he
wanted to buy.

Think of unschooling math in those terms, and compare that in your
mind to schooling math. Which would REALLY inspire true learning in
your child? Sitting down to a worksheet with numbers? Or real life
situations where the child has a need and desire to find an
answer...usually associated with something joyful.

~ Anne










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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:21:01 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: re:Waldorf Toys


In a message dated 2/13/03 5:45:01 AM, jana@... writes:

<< This is horrible! I can't conceive of lying to Brianna like this! This is a
total lack of respect for the child, the child's likes, possessions. I would
never do this. >>

It's another version of saving their souls, for their own good.

Sandra


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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:25:35 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: school/unschooling


In a message dated 2/13/03 7:04:46 AM, michele-nappi@... writes:

<< I have an 18 year old who has been feeling very depressed. She is on med's
and refuses
counseling. >>

Meds without counselling won't help much.

Maybe find a way for her to try two or three different counsellors to see if
she clicks with someone.

< She is determined to get a highschool diploma. Nothing else
that has been offered suits her. >>

Can she just take a few college courses so on applications she can mark "some
college" instead of "high school" as highest level of education?

She can just bypass the whole high school thing.

Sandra


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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:29:49 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: re: special needs children...


In a message dated 2/13/03 11:25:32 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< Then he gets upset and angry or sad.. he feels like "nothing
works for him" , like everyone and everything is against him. >>

Maybe it's genetic?
Maybe if you or his dad are that way he has it either genetically or by
modelling.

<<Im talking ANY new thing.. heck, maybe trying something new
once a month, or even every 2 months But as of now, he resists anything
"new">>

That's happened even on this list, I think.

Some people see the glass as half empty, some see it as half full, and some
are quick to say that the glass sucks and that other people hate them because
they mentioned "half empty" to them.

The best way I have ever seen or practiced changing children's behavior is
for me to be the way I want them to be.

Sandra


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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

Hi Lynda,

Comments interspersed:
My idea is in regard to unlimited access to television, computer, gameboy, etc. If we let our kids have unlimited access to "junk" tv, etc, don't your think they will take advantage of it in the same way they will take advantage of "junk" food, if we stocked our pantry full of an unlimited supply.<<<<

Are you sure that if you had your pantry stocked with junk food but never made an issue out of it being "junk" that that is what they would choose to eat?

We have cable and HBO. I don't limit what my kids watch or when. They've seen it all, right down to Howard Stern (ok, I do strongly recommend that they change the channel then :o), but ususlaly because a younger sibling is nearby or even becuase *I'm* nearby and I can't stand that guy).

As for junk food, I have stopped limiting the junk food, but our budget dictates that we buy the healthy stuff first because we can't really afford to stock equal amounts of both junk and healthy stuff.

I buy junk, but when its gone, its gone. I just don't have the money to replace it all week and the kids know that. But I will give them a bit of money here and there and they go to the store and buy their own.

Just the other night to my surprise, my 7 year old and I went out to dinner at Hoss's. They have that great dessert bar, doncha know! Well, when it came time for dessert, she got a tiny little ice cream cone and told me she just wouldn't be able to eat more than that.

That surprised me because I would have gorged myself on it if it had been me :o).

>>Isn't it our responsibility to offer a healthy assortment of food from which to choose, including some not-so-healthy treats, to enjoy on occasion, and in the same way, isn't it our responsibility to provide a healthy assortment of entertainment options. I realize this is hard to do in the case of television,<<<

I think its our responsibility to provide an assortment, *including* healthy stuff.

When it comes to TV and entertainment, we really don't know what kinds of things are going through our childrens' minds as they play them or watch shows. They could be making connections that we hadn't even thought about.

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 2:55:00 PM, lelie@... writes:

<< If we let our kids have unlimited access to "junk" tv, etc, don't your
think they will take advantage of it in the same way they will take advantage
of "junk" food, if we stocked our pantry full of an unlimited supply. >>

If you've only rad for two days you've missed all the discussion about how
many families here don't limit those things and kids don't "take advantage"
(a concept that can't even really apply in the absence of limits).

We always have something sweet here, whether candy or ice cream or homemade
cookies or SOMETHING. Right now, there's half a tray of brownies (REALLY
GOOD ONES) and I'm about the only one eating any. But there were two trays
Sunday, half a tray was eaten while they were hot, and a few others between
then and now. We have ice cream bars and popsicles which have been here
over a week. Some have been eaten. All will be eaten, but nobody's in a
hurry, because it's not unusual for them to be there. They'll be there
later. We have M&Ms. Most of the peanut ones were eaten Sunday by
jigsaw-puzzle-working teens, but there are still 1/4 of what we had. More
than half of the plain ones are left. They're in a see-through plastic
containter right on the counter. Kids can have as many as they want. "As
many as they want" is not very many, because they ONLY eat them when they
actually, really would rather eat them than not.

Kids who get candy only occasionally will tend to eat it quickly and
thoroughly. Kids who are used to it being there have no urgency and no
feeling of having wanted and waited and finally obtained.

-=-If we let our kids have unlimited access to "junk" tv, etc, don't your
think ...-=-

I don't "think" anything about it except that I have kids who are 16, 14 and
11 and you would be amazed at them turning TVs and games off to do other
things, and with them having lived their whole lives with access to candy and
sweets, and asking for fruit and cheese and pasta when we go to the store.

What SEEMS would happen, what people THINK would happen, and what many of our
parents SWORE would happen does not actually happen when the measurements and
restrictions and availability and shaming and warnings are just sweetly and
simply removed.

Better yet when they were never there in the first place.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 2:55:00 PM, lelie@... writes:

<< Isn't it our responsibility to offer a healthy assortment of food from
which to choose, including some not-so-healthy treats, to enjoy on occasion,
and in the same way, isn't it our responsibility to provide a healthy
assortment of entertainment options. >>

Sorry. I ended without finishing (or vice versa!)

I'm curious about how you came to think someone is NOT advocating having a
healthy assortment of food NOT to enjoy on occasion, but to have every single
day, any time. And do you think there are families here who hadn't thought
to "provide a healthy assortment of entertainment options"?

Reading two days wasn't enough!!

Sandra