zenmomma *

>>There are actually How -To's on getting rid of a child's entire collection
>>of toys, here:
http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/coldturkey.htm >>

Oh yuck! They not only recommend taking away all the kids toys, they
advocate lying about it and saying the "magical toy fairy" came
and did it. Here's a quote: "The secret is, if "you" are not
responsible...and a fairy (or elf, or gnome) did it...then it MUST be best!"
But a
fairy DID NOT really do it and the parent IS responsible. Where does that
leave us?

>>I'd been looking into the Waldorf approach...seems to come with the AP
territory...but this sort of thing is enough to turn me off
completely. >>

Back in my former schooling-mom life, I sent my son to a Waldorf inspired
school. It was very dogmatic and controlling. There was
only one right way for children to "progress" and they apparently had the
answer. It was NOT a nurturing time for us.

Life is good.

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
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Tia Leschke

>
> >>I'd been looking into the Waldorf approach...seems to come with the AP
> territory...but this sort of thing is enough to turn me off
> completely. >>

Even as far as attachment parenting goes, they leave a lot to be desired.
My daughter's friend was told by the principal of a Waldorf school that
children should be nursed for 2 years. Not more. Not less.
Gack!
Tia

Flicker-N-Suds

My daughter's friend was told by the principal of a Waldorf school that
children should be nursed for 2 years.
>>>>
ROFLOL I wonder what they would say about my 4yo that nurses <grin>

Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
www.flicker-n-suds.com
Welcome to the world of Sinful Suds, Luscious Lotions, Funky Fibers and MORE!
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> My daughter's friend was told by the principal of a Waldorf school that
> children should be nursed for 2 years.
> >>>>
> ROFLOL I wonder what they would say about my 4yo that nurses <grin>

Probably the same as they would have said about 2 of mine. And one of those
still had a 6 year old nursing. Right now she's "only" nursing the 2.25 and
the 6 month old. <g>
Tia

Tia Leschke

> > ROFLOL I wonder what they would say about my 4yo that nurses <grin>
>
> Probably the same as they would have said about 2 of mine. And one of
those
> still had a 6 year old nursing. Right now she's "only" nursing the 2.25
and
> the 6 month old. <g>

Reading that again, it almost sounds like the one with the 6 year old still
nursing was a nursing 4 year old at the time . . . not! Her oldest was
still nursing at 6. <g>
Tia

marji

At 14:42 2/12/03 -0800, Tia wrote:
> >
> > >>I'd been looking into the Waldorf approach...seems to come with the AP
> > territory...but this sort of thing is enough to turn me off
> > completely. >>
>
>Even as far as attachment parenting goes, they leave a lot to be desired.
>My daughter's friend was told by the principal of a Waldorf school that
>children should be nursed for 2 years. Not more. Not less.
>Gack!
>Tia

Yeah. In our six-year nursing relationship, the *only* person who
questioned my son's "extended" nursing was someone in the Waldorf
community. Even my folks (whose children were exclusively bottle-fed)
never gave me the hairy eyeball about my breastfeeding
6-year-old! Weird! In fact, back in 1994 a friend of mine had gone to a
Waldorf community doctor who had told her that children must be weaned on
their first birthday, not before and not after! It had something to do
with the kid's ethereal body getting tangled up in the mom's ethereal body.

Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

Umm... Sorry for the misplaced "Weird." I should have put the word
"weird" before the sentence about my folks, not after. It was cool that
they never judged me or made me feel uncomfortable about my son's lengthy
nursing career. Just a clarification.

Marji

>Yeah. In our six-year nursing relationship, the *only* person who
>questioned my son's "extended" nursing was someone in the Waldorf
>community. Even my folks (whose children were exclusively bottle-fed)
>never gave me the hairy eyeball about my breastfeeding
>6-year-old! Weird! In fact, back in 1994 a friend of mine had gone to a
>Waldorf community doctor who had told her that children must be weaned on
>their first birthday, not before and not after! It had something to do
>with the kid's ethereal body getting tangled up in the mom's ethereal body.
>
>Marji


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/12/03 6:59:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
craun@... writes:

> ROFLOL I wonder what they would say about my 4yo that nurses

Or my almost 6 year old.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/12/03 5:58:01 PM, marji@... writes:

<< In fact, back in 1994 a friend of mine had gone to a
Waldorf community doctor who had told her that children must be weaned on
their first birthday, not before and not after! It had something to do
with the kid's ethereal body getting tangled up in the mom's ethereal body.
>>

EEEEEEeeeek
Something about their wishful-thinking airy-fairy spirituality getting mixed
up with
the instincts and closeness of mothers and children.

Sandra

Have a Nice Day!

EEEEEEeeeek
Something about their wishful-thinking airy-fairy spirituality getting mixed
up with
the instincts and closeness of mothers and children.<<<<

Yeah, kind of like the Ezzos only more covert.

Kristen



Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 22:19 2/12/03 -0500, Sandra wrote:

>In a message dated 2/12/03 5:58:01 PM, marji@... writes:
>
><< In fact, back in 1994 a friend of mine had gone to a
>Waldorf community doctor who had told her that children must be weaned on
>their first birthday, not before and not after! It had something to do
>with the kid's ethereal body getting tangled up in the mom's ethereal body.
> >>
>
>EEEEEEeeeek
>Something about their wishful-thinking airy-fairy spirituality getting mixed
>up with
>the instincts and closeness of mothers and children.
>
>Sandra

I mean, REALLY! How ridiculous is THAT? In other words, you've got this
kid all tangled up with your PHYSICAL body for 1 year and 9 months (that's
1.75 years, folks) <bweg> and if we permit this entanglement to go on 1.76
years (or, maybe it's even 1.751 years, but I wouldn't want to worry
anyone) or longer, our ethereal bodies become hopelessly knotted up with
our kids', and that leads to all kinds of horrendous, messy sorting-out
problems. Who knew the risks involved? I mean, there ought to be a
warning label on sex! (Hmmm, that's not a bad idea, now that I think of it.)

Motherhood is such a MESSY business.

Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Flicker-N-Suds

Or my almost 6 year old.
Pam G.
>>>>>
LOL I won't be surprised if that is me in 1.5 years. My family though does give me grief.

Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
www.flicker-n-suds.com
Welcome to the world of Sinful Suds, Luscious Lotions, Funky Fibers and MORE!
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coyote's corner

This is horrible! I can't conceive of lying to Brianna like this! This is a
total lack of respect for the child, the child's likes, possessions. I would
never do this. Brianna is a collector; rocks, small statues, feathers,
shells. She likes to collect, she chooses to collect.those are her choices.
Her room is a mess, (my home isn't to far behind!) That will pass. Once in a
while I'll say something..when she 'finishes' a project and everything is on
my table or kitchen floor and there's a danger to the puppy, but to trick,
lie, steal, collude..that's just wrong! There are so many issues here. I don
't want Brianna leaving people in my home w/o my permission or when no one
is home, I don't want Brianna deciding what I should have or get rid of; I
don't want Brianna to lie to me. I don't want her to trick me. How can I do
these things to her? How is she to feel secure?
How can a parent do those things w/o the child feeling betrayed? All of
those plastic toys? Pass them on. For the future? Talk to your child about
choices. I have w/ Brianna. She still wants some things that I roll my eyes
(figuratively) over, but her choices now are much better. Tickets to plays,
(We live near some wonderful theaters), clothes, healthy, well chosen toys
for her puppy..and she's now the proud owner of a savings bond.
I've only lied to Brianna once, it had to do w/ something her bio mom did.
I would never steal from her. This is criminal.
Janis (whose still learning)
BTW.I was going to meet w/ a mom that does this form of Homeschooling..this
saves me an hour!

-----Original Message-----
From: zenmomma * [mailto:zenmomma@...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:Waldorf Toys





>>There are actually How -To's on getting rid of a child's entire collection
>>of toys, here:
http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/coldturkey.htm >>

Oh yuck! They not only recommend taking away all the kids toys, they
advocate lying about it and saying the "magical toy fairy" came
and did it. Here's a quote: "The secret is, if "you" are not
responsible...and a fairy (or elf, or gnome) did it...then it MUST be best!"
But a
fairy DID NOT really do it and the parent IS responsible. Where does that
leave us?

>>I'd been looking into the Waldorf approach...seems to come with the AP
territory...but this sort of thing is enough to turn me off
completely. >>

Back in my former schooling-mom life, I sent my son to a Waldorf inspired
school. It was very dogmatic and controlling. There was
only one right way for children to "progress" and they apparently had the
answer. It was NOT a nurturing time for us.

Life is good.

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 7:17:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
craun@... writes:

> Or my almost 6 year old.
> Pam G.
> >>>>>
> LOL I won't be surprised if that is me in 1.5 years. My family though does
> give me grief.
>
>

My family lives so far away....sometimes that is great.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> BTW.I was going to meet w/ a mom that does this form of
Homeschooling..this
> saves me an hour!

You might want to consider still meeting her. I know people who like a lot
of the Waldorf ideas but don't go in for their rigidity. My daughter, for
instance, is attracted to all the nature, art, and music stuff that they do.
She also doesn't care much for the plastic stuff, but she would never take
the stuff away from her kids. She buys wooden toys and simple dolls for
them but also things that they want that she doesn't much like. (And she's
the one who was still nursing her daughter at age 6.)
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 5:45:01 AM, jana@... writes:

<< This is horrible! I can't conceive of lying to Brianna like this! This is a
total lack of respect for the child, the child's likes, possessions. I would
never do this. >>

It's another version of saving their souls, for their own good.

Sandra

Lee Roversi

Dear listmates,
I feel compelled to say that all three of my children attended a small
Waldorf School during some of their elementary years - the experience was
rich and fun for 2 out of the 3 of them. We never discarded our beloved
plastic toys, nor did I feel that I had to take any teacher or
adminstrator's opinions about my children as anything other than their
opinion. I stayed true to my relationship with them throughout. I think we
need to be careful to not belittle nor negate an entire educational path
with some out-of-context Steiner quotes or the few negative experiences of
some folks. Each Waldorf School is a different entity, each person's
experience of it also different. Just as we would not like unschooling to
be judged someone who has seen a family in neglectful bedlam who calls
their path unschooling.
In respect and aloha, Lee
NORTH COUNTRY FARMS
An Organic Family Farm & Tropical B&B Cottages
An Eco-Tourism Destination
P.O. Box 723
Kilauea, Kauai, HI 96754
808-828-1513 phone & voice mail
http://www.northcountryfarms.com

Rachel Ann

I personally prefer wood toys and all natural toys over plastic. I think
in general they have more staying power. (However we have a lot of both.)
For instance, a wooden doll house is apt to be used by a teenager as well as
a six year old, and kept into adulthood, passed down through the generations
I wish we had a brio train set as opposed to the plastic one we have now.
My children like it, but it is less packable for Israel, to tell the truth
and we may have to leave it behind because of the volume.
.
Most educational philosphies have some good points and some bad. The method
of teaching reading, for instance, Waldorf style is very relaxed and sounds
kind of fun....(Draw a mountain for the letter M for instance.) That doesn't
mean it is for everyone.(The reading method). Certainly, being Jewish, I
object to a lot of their philosophy. And having nursed all but one of my
children till age 4, I don't buy into their nursing ideas and relationship
ideas either. (well, all but two but my last is almost four)

I find it best to pick what works for my children, and makes them happy.

Same with Charlotte Mason. I do think that for some children BOB books and
the ilk are the worst types of books to learn to read with (even if child
led, that is waiting till the child asks). Many children do better by
*real* books that have something to say rather than simply teach phonics.
But their are children out there that want the phonics...

be well,
Rachel Ann, writing to you from the land of the sick (I've got brochitis..
somebody tell me this will end soon! I've been sick for three weeks now)





-------Original Message-------

From: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:59:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Waldorf Toys

Dear listmates,
I feel compelled to say that all three of my children attended a small
Waldorf School during some of their elementary years - the experience was
rich and fun for 2 out of the 3 of them. We never discarded our beloved
plastic toys, nor did I feel that I had to take any teacher or
adminstrator's opinions about my children as anything other than their
opinion. I stayed true to my relationship with them throughout. I think we
need to be careful to not belittle nor negate an entire educational path
with some out-of-context Steiner quotes or the few negative experiences of
some folks. Each Waldorf School is a different entity, each person's
experience of it also different. Just as we would not like unschooling to
be judged someone who has seen a family in neglectful bedlam who calls
their path unschooling.
In respect and aloha, Lee
NORTH COUNTRY FARMS
An Organic Family Farm & Tropical B&B Cottages
An Eco-Tourism Destination
P.O. Box 723
Kilauea, Kauai, HI 96754
808-828-1513 phone & voice mail
http://www.northcountryfarms.com

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 2:00:27 PM, ncfarms@... writes:

<< I think we
need to be careful to not belittle nor negate an entire educational path
with some out-of-context Steiner quotes or the few negative experiences of
some folks. Each Waldorf School is a different entity, each person's
experience of it also different. >>

That's all true.

But I think there is a systemic dishonesty in the training and execution of
Waldorf education when the teachers know but don't admit that there is a
weird spiritual basis for particulars of their curriculum.

If you have that Steiner quote in context, I'd be glad to read it.

Some of the stuff is really pretty. Lots of my kids' early toys came from
Hearthsong catalog, which was pretty thoroughly Waldorf stuff. I have
nothing against wet-on-wet painting or music or silk scarves or kids learning
to knit and to make things together.

I have issues with dishonesty, and when the whole system is presented as an
ostensibly cognitive-development based program when it's actually a
spiritually based program, I think the teachers are modelling dishonesty from
the get go.

Sandra

linda salb

with my last child we took a mommy and child preschool class, we got kicked out of group circle music time because my son actually reacted to the singing by dancing. we were asked to sit out because of a natural reaction, that initself is such a contradiction to some of there child led philosophies. I also nursed when i pleased he was 3 then, nursed til 5, of course they thought of me as some sort of waldorf rebel. I do however like the natural toys approach, play with things of the earth, but that could be of my native american approach too. So in point we should, i feel, do whatever feels right......both to us and our children. We are not perfect and I do not believe there is ONE way to parent.........JUST BE WHO WE ARE AND WHAT FEELS RIGHT, hopefully it will turn out well. We do our best. By the way I have many Waldorf books to sell, lol, if anyone is interested. Last but not least I feel we can pull many philosophies together as I have done, learn something from everyone, that has helped me alot over the years. But listening to our instincts is really important therefore knowing where to draw then line as I have read many of you have done well when it came to the Waldorf approach. Peace and Blessings......Blackwolf
zenmomma * <zenmomma@...> wrote:



>>There are actually How -To's on getting rid of a child's entire collection
>>of toys, here:
http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/coldturkey.htm >>

Oh yuck! They not only recommend taking away all the kids toys, they
advocate lying about it and saying the "magical toy fairy" came
and did it. Here's a quote: "The secret is, if "you" are not
responsible...and a fairy (or elf, or gnome) did it...then it MUST be best!"
But a
fairy DID NOT really do it and the parent IS responsible. Where does that
leave us?

>>I'd been looking into the Waldorf approach...seems to come with the AP
territory...but this sort of thing is enough to turn me off
completely. >>

Back in my former schooling-mom life, I sent my son to a Waldorf inspired
school. It was very dogmatic and controlling. There was
only one right way for children to "progress" and they apparently had the
answer. It was NOT a nurturing time for us.

Life is good.

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

> Or my almost 6 year old.
> Pam G.

LOL, or my 6.5 and 3.5 year olds. My family have given up on saying
anything at all!

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

> In a message dated 2/13/03 5:45:01 AM, jana@c... writes:
>
> << This is horrible! I can't conceive of lying to Brianna like
this! This is a
> total lack of respect for the child, the child's likes,
possessions. I would
> never do this. >>

I agree, that was a really horrifying article to read. I think if I
did this to my kids, they would experience a deep and profound grief
that I could never erase. My son has an entire world of "Ojos", his
name for his group of Lego people. Each Lego person has his own
specific attributes, personality, job in the "Ojo" world, etc. and
they are so important to him that when other kids come over, he asks
me to put them up. A couple of times, kids who didn't understand his
universe did things like switched heads and bodies of the Ojos
around. Perfectly normal thing to do, but to him it was like they'd
just decapitated his best friends, he was horrified. It took us
two hours to get all the little people sorted out and back to normal.
So I can imagine that if the toy fairy just disappeared them all, he
would 1) Never want to see or hear about another fairy in his life,
good or bad, 2) Never trust me again, let alone probably another
human being, and 3) Grieve as if those little people were really dead
(which to him, they would be). What a terrible thing to do to a child.

Now, I have to admit, I understand the temptation. I used to think
Waldorf was a grand idea, and had visions of my children's tidy,
pastel-painted room with playsilks and stands and twigs and nuts
around in nifty little baskets, them playing lovingly with their hand-
crafted dolls. So, walking through the plastic jungle of
transformers, Bionicles, and action figures is a bit of a shock, but
it's their stuff and it matters to them, so that's what counts.

Maybe the folks who wrote this article need an idealism fairy to come
into their head and pack all that nonsense away :)

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

I guess my experience of Waldorf education was so positive in that it was
not cloaked in any sort of secrecy about Anthroposophy (that weird
spiritual thing!) being the underpinning of the scene. It did not threaten
me - it did not scare me - it did not even affect me nor my children's
experience. What did make it a solid and deep experience was the reverence
and respect for my children and their process shown by their various
teachers.
Aloha, Lee