[email protected]

In a message dated 2/5/03 10:09:50 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Because in 9th grade, he will be expected to know how to do basic
arithmetic. I'm not comfortable sending him to 9th grade when he can barely
do 4th grade level work. That is setting him up to fail. *HIS* solution was
to work through Saxon 7/6. >>

HS's offer basic math courses. I took one and it covers all of that.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 1:29:27 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he
is afraid of?
>>

It sounds like you are taking responsibility for his basic personality, when
it is not yours to take responsibility for.
That's just HIM. And something he has to learn to deal with in his own way.
It doesn't sound like you have the trust necessary for unschooling to unfold
in the joyful manner that it can. And he is still blaming YOU for what he
didn't learn, which tell me a lot.
My son takes full responsibility for what he does /doesn't know.
He knows I will help him get to information he wants, but I will NOT push him
to do or learn something that frustrates him.
If your son thinks school is the answer, I don't think he has the trust in
himself that he needs.
I would maybe focus on that issue first, not the fractions.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

Have a Nice Day!

<< Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he
is afraid of?
>>

It sounds like you are taking responsibility for his basic personality, when
it is not yours to take responsibility for.
That's just HIM. And something he has to learn to deal with in his own way.<<<

You are right. And I'm fine with it all when I know he is going to stay home. I'm just not sure how to deal with the criticism of others.

My husband's boss (who runs the lumber yard I was referring to where my son has said he'd like to work) routinely quizzes my kids when he sees them. If my son wants to work there, the first thing that boss will do is quiz him to see what he knows. I guess that just means my son will have to decide if its worth it.



>>It doesn't sound like you have the trust necessary for unschooling to unfold
in the joyful manner that it can. <<


I do, as long as I'm not forced to worry about someone else's timeline (like the school's). To me, our unschooling life and the schedule of the school are diametrically opposed simply *because* my kids don't learn things at the rate that the school would assign them.

I wasn't sure how to deal with that conflict if he decided to return to school. But perhaps I should just let *him* deal with it.




>>And he is still blaming YOU for what he
didn't learn, which tell me a lot.<<

Not to sound dumb, but what does that tell you? (I'm honestly curious, I'm thinking maybe I'm missing some wisdom here).

I chalk that up as part of his personality. He consistantly *does* blame others when things don't go the way he wants them to. If its a video game, its the computer's fault.

>>>My son takes full responsibility for what he does /doesn't know.
He knows I will help him get to information he wants, but I will NOT push him
to do or learn something that frustrates him.<<<



Well, I've also made this clear to my son by explaining that nobody can make him learn anything, even the school.

>>If your son thinks school is the answer, I don't think he has the trust in
himself that he needs.<<


He thinks its the answer to being with his friends. I don't think he necessarily thinks its the answer to academics.
Kristen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he
is afraid of?>>

Is it fair to prevent someone else from avoiding something they're afraid of?

I've never wanted to play football. I'm afraid of it. I'm afraid it would
waste my time, or seem idiotic. Should someone have made me play football?

I'm afraid of knitting. I can't hold the knitting needles right and if I do
my hands cramp. Who should have prevented me from avoiding it after the
first thing I made?

Is it FAIR?

How about "Is it better for him if..."

"Fair" is an odd consideration.

I think this about giving up:

CERTIFICATE OF EMPOWERMENT

As bearer of this certificate you are no longer required to depend on the
advice of experts. You may step back and view the entire world-not just your
home, neighborhood or town, but the whole Earth-as a learning experience, a
laboratory containing languages (and native speakers thereof), plants,
animals, history, geology, weather (real live weather, in the sky, not in a
book), music, art , mathematics, physics, engineering, foods, human dynamics,
and ideas without end. Although collections of these treasures have been
located in museums for your convenience, they are to be found everywhere
else, too.

This authorizes you to experiment; to trust and enjoy your kids; to rejoice
when your children surpass you in skill, knowledge or wisdom; to make
mistakes, and to say "I don't know." Furthermore, you may allow your children
to experience boredom without taking full responsibility for finding them
something to do.
Henceforth you shall neither be required nor expected to finish everything
you start. Projects, books, experiments and plans may be discontinued as soon
as something more interesting comes along (or for any other reason) without
penalty, and picked up again at any time in the future (or never).

You may reclaim control of your family's daily life, and take what steps you
feel necessary to protect your children from physical, emotional or social
harm.

You have leave to think your own thoughts, and to encourage your children to
think theirs.

Each person who reads and understands this is authorized to extend these
privileges to others, by reproducing and distributing this certificate or by
creating another of his/her own design. Those who don't feel the need to
obtain approval to experiment, to think, or to do things they've never seen
others do are exempt, as they didn't need permission in the first place.


Sandra Dodd


------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/2003 9:24:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> Has he tried the Keys To workbooks?

Is there a website for these?

Lori


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 10:49:41 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< To me, our unschooling life and the schedule of the school are
diametrically opposed simply *because* my kids don't learn things at the rate
that the school would assign them. >>

To ANYONE unschooling and school are dimetrically opposed. If you're going
to live in the shadow of the school, one eye on the school all the time, you
won't be unschooling. You'll just be failing to school.

<<>>It doesn't sound like you have the trust necessary for unschooling to
unfold
in the joyful manner that it can. <<

<<I do, as long as I'm not forced to worry about someone else's timeline
(like the school's). >>

You don't, as long as you think you're being FORCED to worry about someone
else's timeline.

Unless you let go of other people's timelines, unschooling isn 't happening.

<< >>And he is still blaming YOU for what he
didn't learn, which tell me a lot.<<

Not to sound dumb, but what does that tell you? (I'm honestly curious, I'm
thinking maybe I'm missing some wisdom here).>>

I'm not the one who wrote it, but what it says is that neither you nor he has
ever let loose of the old models of learning (in which someone else is
responsible for teaching) and let unschooling work.


I can't swim. I don't say "Yeah, I swim" just because I stand in water up to
my neck.

Swimming isn't just being in the water. It's being able to propel oneself
safely and happily away from the shore and back.

Unschooling isn't just not being in school, and just doing no formal lessons
for a year. It's being able to see learning in everything, and to live life
in such a way that learning just floods over and through people in ways
totally unlike anything you ever saw in school, without ANY thought of
"schoolwork."

<< Well, I've also made this clear to my son by explaining that nobody can
make him learn anything, even the school.

You think your explanation "made it clear" to him.
This is a VERY teacherly attitude.

You can't understand his being distracted in the midst of a math problem even
while you're explaining it to him.

You see your explanation as the operant bit of life.

If he doesn't understand something, he isn't learning. Unless he's learning,
NOTHING is happening except you're wasting time explaining, and he is
learning not to listen to you.

ONLY LEARNING is learning. Teaching in the absence of learning is irritation
for all involved.


<< He thinks its the answer to being with his friends. I don't think he
necessarily thinks its the answer to academics.>>

You've talked about explaining and academics, but you're not writing about
learning. About the very idea and joy of learning. You said he was
expecting learning to work like an epiphany. I hope you'll have an epiphany
about how learning works!! Until that happens, you won't begin to
understand unschooling.

Epiphany the way we're using it here is:

3 a (1) : a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential
nature or meaning of something (2) : an intuitive grasp of reality through
something (as an event) usually simple and striking (3) : an illuminating
discovery b : a revealing scene or moment


Until math is revealed (until he can see it), he will not be able to see it.

Until you see natural learning really working, you won't believe it can
happen.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 1:56:29 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<<
Not to sound dumb, but what does that tell you? (I'm honestly curious,
I'm thinking maybe I'm missing some wisdom here). >>

That he isn't seeing himself as the key to learning. That he does not see
himself as responsible for what he does and doesn't know.
Which makes sense seeing his school record now.
Three years of sorta unschooling isn't going to give him the trust and faith
in his abilities that he needs.
I hope you aren't offended by me saying "sorta unschooling"....I'm referring
to your nervous reactions to trying to help him learn something he thought he
needed school for. That's all.
That's not what our truth is here.
If my child wanted to understand fractions and sit down with a book to do it,
I would try to help him.
If he got distracted by the cat or anything else, I would see that as
inherently WAY more important than the fractions and either leave him alone,
or dive into the "distraction" with him.
That's a big difference than what you're describing.
I think he's picking up on your insecurities about what other people think,
and your fears.


He thinks its the answer to being with his friends. I don't think he
necessarily thinks its the answer to academics.
Kristen

Then I'd help him get the social stuff without school. I'd make my home a
social HAVEN for him, get him where he wants to go and make life bubbly and
joyful without school.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 1:56:29 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< That way we'd be free to enjoy the here and now without worrying about
the future. And if he decides to really prepare, it won't be a battle. >>

YEAH!! Exactly.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

Betsy

I just want to add that doing math drill *without understanding them*
actually DELAYS the epiphany.

Betsy

**You've talked about explaining and academics, but you're not writing
about
learning. About the very idea and joy of learning. You said he was
expecting learning to work like an epiphany. I hope you'll have an
epiphany
about how learning works!! Until that happens, you won't begin to
understand unschooling.

Epiphany the way we're using it here is:

3 a (1) : a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential
nature or meaning of something (2) : an intuitive grasp of reality
through
something (as an event) usually simple and striking (3) : an
illuminating
discovery b : a revealing scene or moment **

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/2003 3:43:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> << To me, our unschooling life and the schedule of the school are
> diametrically opposed simply *because* my kids don't learn things at the
> rate
> that the school would assign them. >>
>
> To ANYONE unschooling and school are dimetrically opposed. If you're going
>
> to live in the shadow of the school, one eye on the school all the time,
> you
> won't be unschooling. You'll just be failing to school.
>

Unschooling is living your life as if school didn't exist. ~Ned Vare

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

>>Unschooling isn't just not being in school, and just doing no formal lessons
for a year. It's being able to see learning in everything, and to live life
in such a way that learning just floods over and through people in ways
totally unlike anything you ever saw in school, without ANY thought of
"schoolwork."<<

*I* understand that. I whole heartedly *believe* that. My son does not.

<< Well, I've also made this clear to my son by explaining that nobody can
make him learn anything, even the school.

You think your explanation "made it clear" to him.
This is a VERY teacherly attitude.

You can't understand his being distracted in the midst of a math problem even
while you're explaining it to him.

You see your explanation as the operant bit of life.

If he doesn't understand something, he isn't learning. Unless he's learning,
NOTHING is happening except you're wasting time explaining, and he is
learning not to listen to you.

ONLY LEARNING is learning. Teaching in the absence of learning is irritation
for all involved.<<<

Yes, I understand this. Which is why I back off every time he gets distracted or frustrated, because it *is* a waste of time for both of us.

That is why I came here. How does *he* learn that learning is everywhere?


<< He thinks its the answer to being with his friends. I don't think he
necessarily thinks its the answer to academics.>>

You've talked about explaining and academics, but you're not writing about
learning. About the very idea and joy of learning. You said he was
expecting learning to work like an epiphany.<<<

I said that *some* things do not happen like an epiphany...or rather, I wondered if there are *some* things that do not happen that way.

I hope you'll have an epiphany
about how learning works!! Until that happens, you won't begin to
understand unschooling.

Epiphany the way we're using it here is:

3 a (1) : a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential
nature or meaning of something (2) : an intuitive grasp of reality through
something (as an event) usually simple and striking (3) : an illuminating
discovery b : a revealing scene or moment


Until math is revealed (until he can see it), he will not be able to see it.

Until you see natural learning really working, you won't believe it can
happen.

Sandra

Sandra,

Once again..*I* understand this. It is my *son* who does not. *I* understand how learning works. I* see him learning all the time. My son does not.

*I* know that math is everwhere and its not necessary to use books. But *HE* believes he needs to use a book or he isn't really learning math. And the school believes that as well and that is who he'd have to deal with if he went there.

Why he can't see his own learning, I don't know.

*I* was all ready for unschooling. *I* was ready to let it all go.

*HE* is not ready.

Kristen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 4:13:59 PM, litlrooh@... writes:

<<
Yes, I understand this. Which is why I back off every time he gets
distracted or frustrated, because it *is* a waste of time for both of us.
>>

Backing off isn't proof of your understanding.
Never having tried to teach him the math school-style in the first place
would have been better evidence.

<<That is why I came here. How does *he* learn that learning is everywhere?>>

First you need to believe it and live it.

<<*I* was all ready for unschooling. *I* was ready to let it all go.>>

Was? You were ready to but didn't do it?

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 5:06:49 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Unschooling is living your life as if school didn't exist. ~Ned Vare >>

That is absolute truth.
That Ned has some great things to say...when he isn't irritating me. LOL :)

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 5:06:49 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< You are saying that unschooling excludes school, even if thats what the
child wants. >>

This seems self evident to me. UNschooling/ NOT schooling. How could one
UNschool and go TO school?
That doesn't jive.


Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

Have a Nice Day!

<<
Yes, I understand this. Which is why I back off every time he gets
distracted or frustrated, because it *is* a waste of time for both of us.
>>

>>Backing off isn't proof of your understanding.<<
Backing off is proof of my struggling to understand what he wants and what he needs. I'm still learning too, so I'm not going to be perfect at it.

>>Never having tried to teach him the math school-style in the first place
would have been better evidence.<<

So when he said "I want to learn the way my friends do" should I have said "no"?

<<That is why I came here. How does *he* learn that learning is everywhere?>>

First you need to believe it and live it.

I believe it. I live it myself. I live it with my younger children. The struggle is that he wants to do what resembles school, but gets frustrated when I follow that lead and try to do that.
What I understand now, that I didn't understand before, was that he apparently does not *want* to learn "school style" or it wouldn't be a struggle. Having asked him about it today, he thinks he *should* learn school style. There is a big difference between "wanting" to do something and doing it because you think you "should".

So the real issue is not whether or not he goes back to school, but that he doesn't recognize all the learning he is actually doing without school.



<<*I* was all ready for unschooling. *I* was ready to let it all go.>>

Was? You were ready to but didn't do it?

I *did*. He didn't. And since I thought unschooling *was* "child led learning", I *thought* we were unschooling even though something wasn't working.

I came here because something wasn't right, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

Now that I understand your definition of unschooling, I understand that in your opinion, I was not unschooling.

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

In a message dated 2/6/03 5:06:49 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< You are saying that unschooling excludes school, even if thats what the
child wants. >>

This seems self evident to me. UNschooling/ NOT schooling. How could one
UNschool and go TO school?
That doesn't jive.
I don't know where I got the idea that the unschooling lifestyle meant that if a child wanted to go to school, that since it was *his* idea, it was still unschooling.

I"ve heard unschoolers say (and this is at unschooling.com message boards) that if a child *wants* to use a workbook, then its still unschooling.

And I've heard it said that if its all about learning, and a child enjoys the classroom type learning more than any other way, then it would still be unschooling because it is what the child wants and enjoys, and he is joyfully learning.

So, if there is a line to be drawn, where is it drawn?
Kristen





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/03 7:05:08 PM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< I"ve heard unschoolers say (and this is at unschooling.com message
boards) that if a child *wants* to use a workbook, then its still
unschooling. >>

Holly had a workbook and she was filling in blanks.
Was she "using" the workbook?

The line is drawn somewhere there, internally, and involves factors like:

what did Holly think about the power of the workbook? WHY was she putting
marks in that workbook?

what were my expectations about that workbook? What was my investment in her
putting marks in that book?

did Holly think the workbook was where math lived? Did she think she needed
that workbook? Had I said anything to make her think doing the workbook was
more valuable to me or to her than something else she could have been doing
at that moment?

<< And I've heard it said that if its all about learning, and a child
enjoys the classroom type learning more than any other way, then it would
still be unschooling because it is what the child wants and enjoys, and he is
joyfully learning.>>

I would have joyfully learned in a boarding school when I was a kid, because
I would have been away from my house. All that joy and all that learning
wouldn't have made it unschooling in any way.

If a child is independently diagramming sentences or doing something else
that's not often done outside a classroom, that wouldn't preclude
unschooling, necessarily. If the parent had agreed to provide sentences to
diagram because the kid didn't believe grammar could be learned any other
way, that's not unschooling.

<< So, if there is a line to be drawn, where is it drawn? >>

It has more to do with why people are doing what they are doing and what they
believe about it than WHAT they are doing.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/2003 9:05:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
> I don't know where I got the idea that the unschooling lifestyle meant that
> if a child wanted to go to school, that since it was *his* idea, it was
> still unschooling.

THERE's a big fat line. When they're in school, they're NOT unschooling. I
think that's pretty back and white. They're not HOMEschooling either---maybe
THAT's clearer? Because they're obviously NOT home?

> I"ve heard unschoolers say (and this is at unschooling.com message boards)
> that if a child *wants* to use a workbook, then its still unschooling.

As long as workbooks are looked upon as "just another toy", they're cool. Is
the workbook mandatory? Is it given a higher value than say...a set of
measuring cups? a pile of dirt? some colored pencils? a flashlight? Do they
"weigh" more than anything else?

Texkbooks are even "OK" if they don't hold any power over the parent or the
child.

We have both in the house. They're available. (They're not always CORRECT,
though! We find mistakes ALL the time! <G>)

> And I've heard it said that if its all about learning, and a child enjoys
> the classroom type learning more than any other way, then it would still be
> unschooling because it is what the child wants and enjoys, and he is
> joyfully learning.

Then he's enjoying school, and that's fine. But he's NOT unschooling.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

Ok.

I think that explains it.

I sat down with my son again tonight, and asked him if he wanted "one problem/day" because he wanted to do it, or because he thought he should.

He said it was because he thought he should.

I asked him if he saw the math that happens everytime he plays videogames. Or when he plays chess. He said "How is that Math???".

I then took two measuring cups and I talked about one being 1 cup, and the other being a 1/2 cup, something we both know. I asked him how he would explain that to someone who didn't speak english without a language they could both understand. He said he didn't know, so I said, that is what the language of "arithmetic" is for. We talked about how math is EVERYWHERE, and always has been, but that in order to communicate the mathematics that we saw, or to work with mathematical ideas, arithmetic was invented.


I picked up a circular object and asked him what shape it was. He told me it was circle. I told him, "but who decided it should be called a 'circle'"? It has always been this shape, but the word "circle" is just the word we use to tell someone else what it is we see.

We talked about his Galileo thermometer. His has numbers, but the original Galileo thermometer did not. I asked him if he realized that the original was *still* mathematical, even though it didn't have numbers.

We talked about the pendulum and the physics of a billiard game, the kinetic energy of the que ball when it hits the 8 ball...and theagain, how that is math without numbers. Then we talked about how there is actually a mathematical formula to discuss kinetic energy and the Laws of Physics.

I asked him if he thought he would learn fractions if he went to work at the lumber yard. He said he thought he probably would. So I asked him "then why do we need to learn it now, on a piece of paper?".

I asked him what *he* wanted to learn and told him that I am here to help him learn whatever he wants to learn in any way I can. I'm here, I'm ready to help in whatever way he wants...its up to him to decide what and I'll help him with how if he wants.

I asked him if he still wanted to do the math problem I gave him. He said "no". We threw it out.

Kristen



----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push



In a message dated 2/6/03 7:05:08 PM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< I"ve heard unschoolers say (and this is at unschooling.com message
boards) that if a child *wants* to use a workbook, then its still
unschooling. >>

Holly had a workbook and she was filling in blanks.
Was she "using" the workbook?

The line is drawn somewhere there, internally, and involves factors like:

what did Holly think about the power of the workbook? WHY was she putting
marks in that workbook?

what were my expectations about that workbook? What was my investment in her
putting marks in that book?

did Holly think the workbook was where math lived? Did she think she needed
that workbook? Had I said anything to make her think doing the workbook was
more valuable to me or to her than something else she could have been doing
at that moment?

<< And I've heard it said that if its all about learning, and a child
enjoys the classroom type learning more than any other way, then it would
still be unschooling because it is what the child wants and enjoys, and he is
joyfully learning.>>

I would have joyfully learned in a boarding school when I was a kid, because
I would have been away from my house. All that joy and all that learning
wouldn't have made it unschooling in any way.

If a child is independently diagramming sentences or doing something else
that's not often done outside a classroom, that wouldn't preclude
unschooling, necessarily. If the parent had agreed to provide sentences to
diagram because the kid didn't believe grammar could be learned any other
way, that's not unschooling.

<< So, if there is a line to be drawn, where is it drawn? >>

It has more to do with why people are doing what they are doing and what they
believe about it than WHAT they are doing.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

>>I asked him if he thought he would learn fractions if he went to work at the lumber yard. He said he thought he probably would. So I asked him "then why do we need to learn it now, on a piece of paper?".<<

I realize that he probably thought he "should" because I suggested it was what the school would expect.

And I admit its hard to shake the notion that arithmetic is something that he should "be prepared" for before going out into the world on his own.

So, he probably did pick that up from me.

I think we've set it right now though.

Kristen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Have a Nice Day!
<litlrooh@c...> wrote:
> And I admit its hard to shake the notion that arithmetic is
something that he should "be prepared" for before going out into the
world on his own.

My DH didn't learn much of it until he went into business on his own.
Then he picked up everything he needed to know in a matter of days.
His brain was totally ready for it, and more than that he was
interested and very motivated to learn it. That, more than anything
else, really showed both of us that unschooling would work. When our
kids want or need to know something, they'll learn it. And they'll
learn it in a much shorter amount of time than the days, weeks, years
they would've put in in school trying to learn it before they were
ready or motivated.

Hang in there!

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Have a Nice Day!
<litlrooh@c...> wrote:
> I don't know where I got the idea that the unschooling lifestyle
meant that if a child wanted to go to school, that since it was *his*
idea, it was still unschooling.
>
> I"ve heard unschoolers say (and this is at unschooling.com
message boards) that if a child *wants* to use a workbook, then its
still unschooling.
>
> And I've heard it said that if its all about learning, and a
child enjoys the classroom type learning more than any other way,
then it would still be unschooling because it is what the child wants
and enjoys, and he is joyfully learning.
>
> So, if there is a line to be drawn, where is it drawn?


I'm not sure it's so much a line as a process of thinking and action.
In my mind, unschooling is a very active, not a passive process (on
my part). The answer to your questions above would lie in the intent
and the actions of the unschooling parent.

For instance, if a relative happened to remark to my son that it was
necessary for him to study arithmetic in order to learn math, and
then my son asked for an arithmetic workbook and I simply went ahead
and bought him one, then I would be reacting passively to the
situation and leaving out my own intrinsic involvement as an
unschooling parent.

In the above scenario, what would be more likely to happen in my
household would be that when the remark about studying arithmetic was
made, I would probably state my own opinion (if I was there at the
time), and my opinion is that no, it's not necessary. It's one path
to learning math, but there are many different paths. Then, when my
son asked for the workbook, we would probably have a dialogue about
it. This wouldn't be forced, or any sort of interrogation, but since
we are used to being in each other's company and discussing things
that we're interested in, we'd talk about why he wanted the workbook.
If it seemed like he was just interested in having space to work
through math problems, or having the problems created for him, or
that he thought it would be fun to take on car trips, or whatever,
then that would be that. However, if he was wanting the workbook out
of some anxiety that he needed to have it in order to learn math,
then we'd talk about that, and I'd give him my thoughts on that and
maybe some examples of how he has learned math in the past, or how
his dad or I have learned it in ways other than rote learning.

In neither case would I deny him the workbook, but he would
definitely have acquired different viewpoints on the subject to think
about, allowing him to come up with his own opinion and make a
decision about the workbook without it coming from some fear-based
notion of learning passed on by someone who doesn't understand any
other models.

It's the dialogue and the constant interaction between us and our
children, and the respecting of their opinions and offering of our
own that makes unschooling "work" in our lives. It's not so much
about drawing lines as about rethinking the way we talk to, work
with, and respect our kids.

For me, it's also a constant re-evaluation of the notions of
education that I was handed as a child. I'm always surprised at the
weird places that they still pop up. I have to be diligent as an
unschooling parent that I'm not passing on unsconscious fear-based
learning from my own past.


Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

<< So, if there is a line to be drawn, where is it drawn? >>

It has more to do with why people are doing what they are doing and what they

believe about it than WHAT they are doing.

I never knew understanding the concept of unschooling was so difficult.
Reading all these posts. I guess it is easier for me as my boys have never
gone to a public school so they do not even know what goes on there. Maybe
that is good.
Pam G.


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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/7/03 1:13:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
litlrooh@... writes:

> I asked him if he still wanted to do the math problem I gave him. He said
> "no". We threw it out.
>
>

Kristen, what a nice ending/beginning....for both of you.
Pam G.


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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/7/03 12:30:14 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I asked him if he still wanted to do the math problem I gave him. He said
"no". We threw it out. >>

Good for him. It's hard to see the math all around us when you've been
through school and thought it was all on paper.
I thought your examples of math all around were good.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

Have a Nice Day!

I never knew understanding the concept of unschooling was so difficult.
Reading all these posts. I guess it is easier for me as my boys have never
gone to a public school so they do not even know what goes on there. Maybe
that is good. <<<<

I'm sure it helps. I think it helps even more though if we *parents* have never been to public school <grin>.

My husband is much like my son. He always thought he was "dumb" because he didn't do well in school. I always knew he was wrong about that, that people learn different ways at different times in different situations. That was the first time I realized that although my husband can't solve a quadratic equation, or do a geometry proof, he works with algebra and especially geometry all the time at work cutting lumber.

Then I earned my bachelors degree through REgents college and I saw the power of learning what you are interested in and how easy it was.

Then I watched my youngest who has always been unschooled (I never worried one iota about her, probably because she was still young). Now she is almost 8 and I am watching her pick everything up like its no sweat. Its exciting to watch the connections she makes in no particular order. I refuse to pick up a textbook with her because I can't see fixing what isn't broken.

I guess the difference between her and my son is that he's older, and he expressed the interest in returning to school, so I was suddenly confronted with all the fears I didn't know I had.

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Robin, writing good stuff about the "where the line is drawn" question:

<< It's the dialogue and the constant interaction between us and our
children, and the respecting of their opinions and offering of our
own that makes unschooling "work" in our lives. It's not so much
about drawing lines as about rethinking the way we talk to, work
with, and respect our kids.

<<For me, it's also a constant re-evaluation of the notions of
education that I was handed as a child. I'm always surprised at the
weird places that they still pop up. I have to be diligent as an
unschooling parent that I'm not passing on unsconscious fear-based
learning from my own past. >>

The "constant re-evaluation" and diligence that Robin's describing are behind
the recurring discussions on this list about why it truly does matter that
parents examine the difference between learning and teaching.

When someone doesn't really know the difference, and has casually and
thoughtlessly associated teaching and learning their whole lives, they are in
danger of continuing to connect them in an unschooling context (or TRY to).
And without REALLY looking at what teaching is NOT, at the total limitations
and sometime irritation of "teaching," they will have a large stumbling block
to understanding how LEARNING works.

So it's good for new unschoolers to go as far and as long as they can without
allowing themselves to think of themselves as teachers, or to "look for
teachers" or to look for "teachable moments" (not a good phrase, but common
among homeschoolers).

Moving from the old model to the new model take conscious desire to
accomplish and takes conscious work. It's not going to just happen when a
curriculum is put back in a box. It's more than just the absence of
schoolwork.

Sandra

Barb Eaton

Sandra,
I received this years ago and really enjoyed and took it to heart. Thank
you so much for bring it with you to Ohio when you came.
I was thinking as I read it again today if you had ever considered
reworking it for teens? I'd love to frame something like that to give to my
ds. Just a thought. :-)


Barb E (how's so far behind)
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill




on 2/6/03 2:28 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> CERTIFICATE OF EMPOWERMENT
>
> As bearer of this certificate you are no longer required to depend on the
> advice of experts. You may step back and view the entire world-not just your
> home, neighborhood or town, but the whole Earth-as a learning experience, a
> laboratory containing languages (and native speakers thereof), plants,
> animals, history, geology, weather (real live weather, in the sky, not in a
> book), music, art , mathematics, physics, engineering, foods, human dynamics,
> and ideas without end. Although collections of these treasures have been
> located in museums for your convenience, they are to be found everywhere
> else, too.
>
> This authorizes you to experiment; to trust and enjoy your kids; to rejoice
> when your children surpass you in skill, knowledge or wisdom; to make
> mistakes, and to say "I don't know." Furthermore, you may allow your children
> to experience boredom without taking full responsibility for finding them
> something to do.
> Henceforth you shall neither be required nor expected to finish everything
> you start. Projects, books, experiments and plans may be discontinued as soon
> as something more interesting comes along (or for any other reason) without
> penalty, and picked up again at any time in the future (or never).
>
> You may reclaim control of your family's daily life, and take what steps you
> feel necessary to protect your children from physical, emotional or social
> harm.
>
> You have leave to think your own thoughts, and to encourage your children to
> think theirs.
>
> Each person who reads and understands this is authorized to extend these
> privileges to others, by reproducing and distributing this certificate or by
> creating another of his/her own design. Those who don't feel the need to
> obtain approval to experiment, to think, or to do things they've never seen
> others do are exempt, as they didn't need permission in the first place.
>
>
> Sandra Dodd
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
>