When to push?
Have a Nice Day!
Ok on the TV thread, Joyce said:
I have a question along the same lines here. My son said he wanted to go back to school. He knows in order to be prepared he needs to learn some of the arithmetic they use in the school.
We collaborated at the beginning of the year and decided that using the Saxon 7/6 book would be the best way to do that.
Once again, we have hit a wall at fractions. He seems ok on most of the other mathematical reasoning skills but is unable to pay attention long enough to master each of the steps in doing fraction arithmetic (specifically converting fractions to add/subtract).
Now he says "forget it, I just won't go back to school" and says he is "stupid".
Not going back to school would all be well and good, except I know he really *does* at least want the *option* of going back to school. He is letting his difficulty with arithmetic stop him from doing something he really wants to do. He is afraid to go back to school because he thinks he is too "dumb" to go.
He is also a perfectionist and believes that if it doesn't come naturally to him that he is just stupid and won't succeed so he avoids it altogether and as a result he avoids other things he wants to do that might involve anything he is weak in.
I do not want him to give up on all the things he loves just because something along the way gets hard for him. And I want him to have the option of going back to school without feeling any more foolish than he already thinks he is.
Any advice?
Kristen
****************************************************************
Today is even more important than tomorrow because "today" is a gift, and "tomorrow" might never come.
Today is where hope lives because today is when we can make things better than yesterday.
The only thing we can be sure of is today and life isn't worth living if it isn't lived in joy for as many moments of today as we can manage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>Is she happy watching TV? Or is she using it as a way to avoid something?Did you just move or is there upsetness in the family?<<<
I have a question along the same lines here. My son said he wanted to go back to school. He knows in order to be prepared he needs to learn some of the arithmetic they use in the school.
We collaborated at the beginning of the year and decided that using the Saxon 7/6 book would be the best way to do that.
Once again, we have hit a wall at fractions. He seems ok on most of the other mathematical reasoning skills but is unable to pay attention long enough to master each of the steps in doing fraction arithmetic (specifically converting fractions to add/subtract).
Now he says "forget it, I just won't go back to school" and says he is "stupid".
Not going back to school would all be well and good, except I know he really *does* at least want the *option* of going back to school. He is letting his difficulty with arithmetic stop him from doing something he really wants to do. He is afraid to go back to school because he thinks he is too "dumb" to go.
He is also a perfectionist and believes that if it doesn't come naturally to him that he is just stupid and won't succeed so he avoids it altogether and as a result he avoids other things he wants to do that might involve anything he is weak in.
I do not want him to give up on all the things he loves just because something along the way gets hard for him. And I want him to have the option of going back to school without feeling any more foolish than he already thinks he is.
Any advice?
Kristen
****************************************************************
Today is even more important than tomorrow because "today" is a gift, and "tomorrow" might never come.
Today is where hope lives because today is when we can make things better than yesterday.
The only thing we can be sure of is today and life isn't worth living if it isn't lived in joy for as many moments of today as we can manage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/03 7:06:49 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< My son said he wanted to go back to school. He knows in order to be
prepared he needs to learn some of the arithmetic they use in the school.
someone who's in that very class, how do you know he wouldn't be ahead?
<< He seems ok on most of the other mathematical reasoning skills but is
unable to pay attention long enough to master each of the steps in doing
fraction arithmetic (specifically converting fractions to add/subtract).>>
The kids in school don't get it either. The teachers start over every single
time it's presented. I doubt he would be behind.
-=-Now he says "forget it, I just won't go back to school" and says he is
"stupid".-=-
If unschooling were working happily at your home why would he want to go to
school? Can't you just drop the Saxon stuff, drop pressing to prepare him
for school (none of that is unschooling) and help him see that he is NOT
stupid? Do things he likes, that he'll enjoy, from which he'll learn, and
you'll learn.
< He is letting his difficulty with arithmetic stop him from doing something
he really wants to do. >>
You told him he needed to know it to go to school. Why do you say HE is
letting it stop him?
YOU made the "requirement." Why were you convinced he really needed that?
<< And I want him to have the option of going back to school without feeling
any more foolish than he already thinks he is. >>
How old his he? If you know a kid who's in the grade he would be in, can you
invite that child over with his math book and have the kid show him what
they're doing?
Or can you just make the unschooling environment so cool that he no longer
cards about school?
Sandra
<< My son said he wanted to go back to school. He knows in order to be
prepared he needs to learn some of the arithmetic they use in the school.
>>They teach math at school. Let him go if he wants to go. Unless you know
someone who's in that very class, how do you know he wouldn't be ahead?
<< He seems ok on most of the other mathematical reasoning skills but is
unable to pay attention long enough to master each of the steps in doing
fraction arithmetic (specifically converting fractions to add/subtract).>>
The kids in school don't get it either. The teachers start over every single
time it's presented. I doubt he would be behind.
-=-Now he says "forget it, I just won't go back to school" and says he is
"stupid".-=-
If unschooling were working happily at your home why would he want to go to
school? Can't you just drop the Saxon stuff, drop pressing to prepare him
for school (none of that is unschooling) and help him see that he is NOT
stupid? Do things he likes, that he'll enjoy, from which he'll learn, and
you'll learn.
< He is letting his difficulty with arithmetic stop him from doing something
he really wants to do. >>
You told him he needed to know it to go to school. Why do you say HE is
letting it stop him?
YOU made the "requirement." Why were you convinced he really needed that?
<< And I want him to have the option of going back to school without feeling
any more foolish than he already thinks he is. >>
How old his he? If you know a kid who's in the grade he would be in, can you
invite that child over with his math book and have the kid show him what
they're doing?
Or can you just make the unschooling environment so cool that he no longer
cards about school?
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
<< My son said he wanted to go back to school. He knows in order to be
prepared he needs to learn some of the arithmetic they use in the school.
I *do* know *many* kids in that very class. I have looked at their materials and spoken to most of them.
<< He seems ok on most of the other mathematical reasoning skills but is
unable to pay attention long enough to master each of the steps in doing
fraction arithmetic (specifically converting fractions to add/subtract).>>
Not in high school they don't.
He is going into 9th grade. He wants to go to college and algebra and geometry both use a great deal of fraction and division applications, especially conversions.
-=-Now he says "forget it, I just won't go back to school" and says he is
"stupid".-=-
Because he misses his public school friends and is enticed by all the high school social stuff that happens: dances, clubs, sports, etc.
stupid? <<<
Saxon was HIS suggestion, something he CHOSE. He wanted to do it. How is that not unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something he couldn't do easily.
Is it unschooling to let someone abandon his dreams because he thinks he is terminally incompetent?
Does that show respect for the child and his dreams?
Might that lead him to believe that I *agree* with his self assessment of being "stupid"?
Or is it unschooling to believe in that child and help that child *become* competent in an area that he *wants* to be competent in, so that he can pursue his dreams?
That *is* what we do. But its not enough because his friends are in school. He wants to be with them and he wants to go back to school knowing he can be successful in school.
The things he enjoys have not helped him to learn the language of arithmetic or fractions. He does not want to go back to school worrying that he'll fail in front of his friends.
< He is letting his difficulty with arithmetic stop him from doing something
he really wants to do. >>
I told him (and his friends confirmed) that in order to be prepared, he should know how to do basic arithmetic: adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, fractions, decimals, percentages, and ratios.
<< And I want him to have the option of going back to school without feeling
any more foolish than he already thinks he is. >>
they're doing?<<
I've suggested that. But it never came to fruition.
I could do that, but that would not help him feel competent in an area where *he* believes he *should* be competent.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
prepared he needs to learn some of the arithmetic they use in the school.
>>someone who's in that very class, how do you know he wouldn't be ahead?<<
>>They teach math at school. Let him go if he wants to go. Unless you know
I *do* know *many* kids in that very class. I have looked at their materials and spoken to most of them.
<< He seems ok on most of the other mathematical reasoning skills but is
unable to pay attention long enough to master each of the steps in doing
fraction arithmetic (specifically converting fractions to add/subtract).>>
>>>The kids in school don't get it either. The teachers start over every singletime it's presented. <<
Not in high school they don't.
>>I doubt he would be behind.<<<According to the materials I've seen his friends use, and the materials my daughter used at the beginning of this year when she went back to school briefly, he is stuck at fourth grade level math in some areas....fractions being one.
He is going into 9th grade. He wants to go to college and algebra and geometry both use a great deal of fraction and division applications, especially conversions.
-=-Now he says "forget it, I just won't go back to school" and says he is
"stupid".-=-
>>If unschooling were working happily at your home why would he want to go toschool? <<
Because he misses his public school friends and is enticed by all the high school social stuff that happens: dances, clubs, sports, etc.
>> Can't you just drop the Saxon stuff, drop pressing to prepare himfor school (none of that is unschooling) and help him see that he is NOT
stupid? <<<
Saxon was HIS suggestion, something he CHOSE. He wanted to do it. How is that not unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something he couldn't do easily.
Is it unschooling to let someone abandon his dreams because he thinks he is terminally incompetent?
Does that show respect for the child and his dreams?
Might that lead him to believe that I *agree* with his self assessment of being "stupid"?
Or is it unschooling to believe in that child and help that child *become* competent in an area that he *wants* to be competent in, so that he can pursue his dreams?
>>Do things he likes, that he'll enjoy, from which he'll learn, andyou'll learn.<<
That *is* what we do. But its not enough because his friends are in school. He wants to be with them and he wants to go back to school knowing he can be successful in school.
The things he enjoys have not helped him to learn the language of arithmetic or fractions. He does not want to go back to school worrying that he'll fail in front of his friends.
< He is letting his difficulty with arithmetic stop him from doing something
he really wants to do. >>
>>You told him he needed to know it to go to school. Why do you say HE isletting it stop him?<
I told him (and his friends confirmed) that in order to be prepared, he should know how to do basic arithmetic: adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, fractions, decimals, percentages, and ratios.
>>YOU made the "requirement." Why were you convinced he really needed that?<<Because in 9th grade, he will be expected to know how to do basic arithmetic. I'm not comfortable sending him to 9th grade when he can barely do 4th grade level work. That is setting him up to fail. *HIS* solution was to work through Saxon 7/6.
<< And I want him to have the option of going back to school without feeling
any more foolish than he already thinks he is. >>
>>How old his he? If you know a kid who's in the grade he would be in, can youinvite that child over with his math book and have the kid show him what
they're doing?<<
I've suggested that. But it never came to fruition.
>>Or can you just make the unschooling environment so cool that he no longercards about school?<<
I could do that, but that would not help him feel competent in an area where *he* believes he *should* be competent.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**Saxon was HIS suggestion, something he CHOSE. He wanted to do it. How
is that not
unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something
he couldn't do easily.**
OK. He chose Saxon. Is he free to unchoose it? Choose something else?
Take a long break?
Betsy
is that not
unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something
he couldn't do easily.**
OK. He chose Saxon. Is he free to unchoose it? Choose something else?
Take a long break?
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/03 8:35:59 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< >>>The kids in school don't get it either. The teachers start over every
single
time it's presented. <<
<<Not in high school they don't. >>
Oh. I thought you were talking about late elementary school.
-=- The things he enjoys have not helped him to learn the language of
arithmetic or fractions. He does not want to go back to school worrying that
he'll fail in front of his friends.
-=-
Can his friends help him get up to speed?
<< I could do that, but that would not help him feel competent in an area
where *he* believes he *should* be competent.>>
How about hiring a tutor?
But at this point, if you were using saxon math for a year to help him go to
school, the topic isn't really unschooling anymore, is it?
Sandra
<< >>>The kids in school don't get it either. The teachers start over every
single
time it's presented. <<
<<Not in high school they don't. >>
Oh. I thought you were talking about late elementary school.
-=- The things he enjoys have not helped him to learn the language of
arithmetic or fractions. He does not want to go back to school worrying that
he'll fail in front of his friends.
-=-
Can his friends help him get up to speed?
<< I could do that, but that would not help him feel competent in an area
where *he* believes he *should* be competent.>>
How about hiring a tutor?
But at this point, if you were using saxon math for a year to help him go to
school, the topic isn't really unschooling anymore, is it?
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
Betsy, we've just come off a long break, 3 months to be exact (and 10 months before that)...and we only ever did it one or two times a week as it was.
I'd say yes he could "Unchoose" it. But he's already been through 6 different kinds of books, all his choosing,...and always wants to switch when he gets to something he doesn't understand, instead of just working his way through it.
It doesn't matter how he learns fractions. I don't care how he learns it. And since he wants to be competent in it, I have come up with all kinds of different ways to try and help him learn it, from text books of his choosing, to hands on, to cooking, to baking, to building.
In each and every case, every time he comes up against something he doesn't understand (usually fractions) he panics and gives up.
The bottom line is that fractions are not going to be easy for him to learn if he really wants to be competent in it. He is going to have to put some effort into it in order to finally understand it. But he believes it should come to him like an epiphany and that since it doesn't, he is just too stupid to learn it.
Kristen
I'd say yes he could "Unchoose" it. But he's already been through 6 different kinds of books, all his choosing,...and always wants to switch when he gets to something he doesn't understand, instead of just working his way through it.
It doesn't matter how he learns fractions. I don't care how he learns it. And since he wants to be competent in it, I have come up with all kinds of different ways to try and help him learn it, from text books of his choosing, to hands on, to cooking, to baking, to building.
In each and every case, every time he comes up against something he doesn't understand (usually fractions) he panics and gives up.
The bottom line is that fractions are not going to be easy for him to learn if he really wants to be competent in it. He is going to have to put some effort into it in order to finally understand it. But he believes it should come to him like an epiphany and that since it doesn't, he is just too stupid to learn it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Betsy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push?
**Saxon was HIS suggestion, something he CHOSE. He wanted to do it. How
is that not
unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something
he couldn't do easily.**
OK. He chose Saxon. Is he free to unchoose it? Choose something else?
Take a long break?
Betsy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
By the way, my son also says that he "should have stayed in school" because then he would have learned all this stuff. He blames me for not "teaching" him.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Have a Nice Day!
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push?
Betsy, we've just come off a long break, 3 months to be exact (and 10 months before that)...and we only ever did it one or two times a week as it was.
I'd say yes he could "Unchoose" it. But he's already been through 6 different kinds of books, all his choosing,...and always wants to switch when he gets to something he doesn't understand, instead of just working his way through it.
It doesn't matter how he learns fractions. I don't care how he learns it. And since he wants to be competent in it, I have come up with all kinds of different ways to try and help him learn it, from text books of his choosing, to hands on, to cooking, to baking, to building.
In each and every case, every time he comes up against something he doesn't understand (usually fractions) he panics and gives up.
The bottom line is that fractions are not going to be easy for him to learn if he really wants to be competent in it. He is going to have to put some effort into it in order to finally understand it. But he believes it should come to him like an epiphany and that since it doesn't, he is just too stupid to learn it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Betsy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push?
**Saxon was HIS suggestion, something he CHOSE. He wanted to do it. How
is that not
unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something
he couldn't do easily.**
OK. He chose Saxon. Is he free to unchoose it? Choose something else?
Take a long break?
Betsy
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
But at this point, if you were using saxon math for a year to help him go to
school, the topic isn't really unschooling anymore, is it?<<
I'm not sure I understand what you mean Sandra. We started using Saxon in September. We took a break in November and went back to it this week after re-evaluating whether or not he still wants to go back to school.
He says he "doesn't know". Knowing him as I do, he means that he wants to but doesn't know if he can handle the work.
Its like a vicious circle. He says he wants to, I try to help, he gets frustrated and wants to quit, he abandons his real desire to go back to school (blaming me and also saying he is too stupid), and I let it go in order not to reinforce a bad experience. Then a little while later, he wants to go to school, and the whole thing starts over again.
I think he really wants to go, and he really wants to learn this stuff, but he wants it to be so easy that he won't have to work at it. The reality is, if he wants to be competent he's going to have to work at it.
Right there is where the problem is I think. A combination of his *want* to know and his misperception that it should be easy just because he wants it. I don't know how to help him overcome that misperception and accept that its OK to have to work at something to be good at it.
I understand that "school at home" (even in one subject), and "going to school" are not unschooling, but I don't understand how its not unschooling if this is something that is his choosing and I'm facilitating what he wants to do.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
school, the topic isn't really unschooling anymore, is it?<<
I'm not sure I understand what you mean Sandra. We started using Saxon in September. We took a break in November and went back to it this week after re-evaluating whether or not he still wants to go back to school.
He says he "doesn't know". Knowing him as I do, he means that he wants to but doesn't know if he can handle the work.
Its like a vicious circle. He says he wants to, I try to help, he gets frustrated and wants to quit, he abandons his real desire to go back to school (blaming me and also saying he is too stupid), and I let it go in order not to reinforce a bad experience. Then a little while later, he wants to go to school, and the whole thing starts over again.
I think he really wants to go, and he really wants to learn this stuff, but he wants it to be so easy that he won't have to work at it. The reality is, if he wants to be competent he's going to have to work at it.
Right there is where the problem is I think. A combination of his *want* to know and his misperception that it should be easy just because he wants it. I don't know how to help him overcome that misperception and accept that its OK to have to work at something to be good at it.
I understand that "school at home" (even in one subject), and "going to school" are not unschooling, but I don't understand how its not unschooling if this is something that is his choosing and I'm facilitating what he wants to do.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
Can you tell him that lots of adults are not good at fractions (or something
else, spelling or history, etc) yet we manage to do things like graduate
from high school and college and get decent jobs and find people who love us
enough to marry us, and so on?
Maybe the fear is that people will look down on your family's homeschooling
because fractions are hard for him? I do have that sort of fear in the back
of my mind - that people will judge me or homeschooling based on what my
kids don't know.
Mary Ellen
else, spelling or history, etc) yet we manage to do things like graduate
from high school and college and get decent jobs and find people who love us
enough to marry us, and so on?
Maybe the fear is that people will look down on your family's homeschooling
because fractions are hard for him? I do have that sort of fear in the back
of my mind - that people will judge me or homeschooling based on what my
kids don't know.
Mary Ellen
Have a Nice Day!
"How about hiring a tutor?"
Actually we did do this awhile ago. But it was a bad experience all the way around, even beyond math. She was always waxing eloquently about the Bible and what it says about children respecting parents (she misunderstood my son's relationship with me) and she had a very fundamentalist Christian point of view, which we did not share, but that she felt compelled to preach.
I have thought about having one of his former teachers tutor him..one that he really liked. I'll be honest though and say that I'm afraid she will sit in judgement of my "laxness" in not forcing him to do academics every day and blame me for the fact that he doesn't understand this stuff. She thought I was nuts to take him out anyway.
Since she still works for the district and the superintendent has a lot of power here, I don't want to take any chances.
I haven't heard of any other tutors around here but I'll admit, I'm a bit gunshy after the last experience.
On a few occasions his one friend tried to help him through some of it, but it didn't help and seemed to make things worse.
Sigh,
Kristen
Actually we did do this awhile ago. But it was a bad experience all the way around, even beyond math. She was always waxing eloquently about the Bible and what it says about children respecting parents (she misunderstood my son's relationship with me) and she had a very fundamentalist Christian point of view, which we did not share, but that she felt compelled to preach.
I have thought about having one of his former teachers tutor him..one that he really liked. I'll be honest though and say that I'm afraid she will sit in judgement of my "laxness" in not forcing him to do academics every day and blame me for the fact that he doesn't understand this stuff. She thought I was nuts to take him out anyway.
Since she still works for the district and the superintendent has a lot of power here, I don't want to take any chances.
I haven't heard of any other tutors around here but I'll admit, I'm a bit gunshy after the last experience.
On a few occasions his one friend tried to help him through some of it, but it didn't help and seemed to make things worse.
Sigh,
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push?
In a message dated 2/5/03 8:35:59 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< >>>The kids in school don't get it either. The teachers start over every
single
time it's presented. <<
<<Not in high school they don't. >>
Oh. I thought you were talking about late elementary school.
-=- The things he enjoys have not helped him to learn the language of
arithmetic or fractions. He does not want to go back to school worrying that
he'll fail in front of his friends.
-=-
Can his friends help him get up to speed?
<< I could do that, but that would not help him feel competent in an area
where *he* believes he *should* be competent.>>
How about hiring a tutor?
But at this point, if you were using saxon math for a year to help him go to
school, the topic isn't really unschooling anymore, is it?
Sandra
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 23:37 2/5/03 -0500, you wrote:
working {smile}. I've been hearing this sort of thing a lot recently
about kids blaming their moms for not teaching them or forcing them to
learn something or taking them out of school and ruining their
lives. There are two things that occur to me. First, it might be good for
son to understand that there are countless folks who have gone all the way
through school, including college, and never learned or grasped an awful
lot of the subject material they were exposed to, fractions chief among
them! I'm sure you're already quite aware of this, but sometimes it's good
to be reminded.
Second, it may be good for you to remember (so you don't beat yourself up
too much) that it's some small comfort for us to have someone to point the
finger at when we feel things aren't going so well, whether it's true or
not. I had this dentist one time who was going to do a great deal of work
in my mouth, and I knew I'd be hurting later. When he saw me in the
waiting area, he called out to me in a friendly way, "Hi, how're you
doing?" I called back, "Fine! But I guess you'll see to that." That was
a pretty dark response that I had. It certainly wasn't his fault that my
mouth was in the shape it was. Anyway, I felt badly that I had said
that. But, when I got into the chair a little later, he said that he
didn't mind my saying it. In fact, he said that if it helped me in some
small way to feel a little better about my predicament, he was glad I had
said it (of course, that made me feel worse!). I had quite a while to sit
in that chair and think about what he had said and how generous he was to
absorb my bad feelings in the hopes it would help me in some way.
Anyway, I think if a dentist can do that for a relative stranger, can't I
do that for my kid? Sometimes, it helps my son to have me as a "whipping
boy" (sorry about that nasty term, but I can't think of another on short
notice) where he can deflect his negative feelings about himself onto
me. I'm strong and I can take it. I don't know for sure, but I hope it
helps him.
I also think (not scientifically at all, just a guess really) that when
some kids reach those teenage years, they need to start the separation
process from their folks, and it can get a little contrary and ugly. It
may be part of a rite of passage. There are lots of kids that I know who
don't seem to need to do this, but I'm guessing that this could be *part*
of the reason for some of that antagonistic stuff that goes on at that time.
Well, that's three things, isn't it?
Well, there's my post for the month! Back to working/lurking for now.
Love and peace to everyone,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>By the way, my son also says that he "should have stayed in school"Hey, Kristen. Just a "drive-by" comment, as it were, when I *ought* to be
>because then he would have learned all this stuff. He blames me for not
>"teaching" him.
>
>Kristen
working {smile}. I've been hearing this sort of thing a lot recently
about kids blaming their moms for not teaching them or forcing them to
learn something or taking them out of school and ruining their
lives. There are two things that occur to me. First, it might be good for
son to understand that there are countless folks who have gone all the way
through school, including college, and never learned or grasped an awful
lot of the subject material they were exposed to, fractions chief among
them! I'm sure you're already quite aware of this, but sometimes it's good
to be reminded.
Second, it may be good for you to remember (so you don't beat yourself up
too much) that it's some small comfort for us to have someone to point the
finger at when we feel things aren't going so well, whether it's true or
not. I had this dentist one time who was going to do a great deal of work
in my mouth, and I knew I'd be hurting later. When he saw me in the
waiting area, he called out to me in a friendly way, "Hi, how're you
doing?" I called back, "Fine! But I guess you'll see to that." That was
a pretty dark response that I had. It certainly wasn't his fault that my
mouth was in the shape it was. Anyway, I felt badly that I had said
that. But, when I got into the chair a little later, he said that he
didn't mind my saying it. In fact, he said that if it helped me in some
small way to feel a little better about my predicament, he was glad I had
said it (of course, that made me feel worse!). I had quite a while to sit
in that chair and think about what he had said and how generous he was to
absorb my bad feelings in the hopes it would help me in some way.
Anyway, I think if a dentist can do that for a relative stranger, can't I
do that for my kid? Sometimes, it helps my son to have me as a "whipping
boy" (sorry about that nasty term, but I can't think of another on short
notice) where he can deflect his negative feelings about himself onto
me. I'm strong and I can take it. I don't know for sure, but I hope it
helps him.
I also think (not scientifically at all, just a guess really) that when
some kids reach those teenage years, they need to start the separation
process from their folks, and it can get a little contrary and ugly. It
may be part of a rite of passage. There are lots of kids that I know who
don't seem to need to do this, but I'm guessing that this could be *part*
of the reason for some of that antagonistic stuff that goes on at that time.
Well, that's three things, isn't it?
Well, there's my post for the month! Back to working/lurking for now.
Love and peace to everyone,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Can you tell him that lots of adults are not good at fractions (or something
else, spelling or history, etc) yet we manage to do things like graduate
from high school and college and get decent jobs and find people who love us
enough to marry us, and so on?<<<
Sure I can. But can he really do the things *he* wants to do without understanding basic arithmetic?
Can he successfully complete high school when he can't add or subtract fractions with unlike denominators or convert a fraction to a decimal when its not obvious whether its "tenths" or "Hundredths"?
Is it fair for me to tell him not to worry about it when pre-req courses require basic arithmetic and the lumber yard where he wants to work part time deals routinely in the use of fractions?
Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he is afraid of?
I admit, I do have that fear. But I'm more concerned about his readiness to abandon his dreams as soon as an intermediate step along the way becomes difficult.
I'm trying to think of other things he has been interested in, and remember whether or not he has persisted through the frustration...video games etc. He does, but not without ALOT of crying, whining, slamming, screaming, and carrying on about how the computer is so dumb.
That is exactly what he does when I try to push him to finish a single math problem that he finds difficult...and eventually the light bulb DOES go on and he smiles.
Does that mean I should give up at the first sign of struggle? Or keep going? I just don't know.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
else, spelling or history, etc) yet we manage to do things like graduate
from high school and college and get decent jobs and find people who love us
enough to marry us, and so on?<<<
Sure I can. But can he really do the things *he* wants to do without understanding basic arithmetic?
Can he successfully complete high school when he can't add or subtract fractions with unlike denominators or convert a fraction to a decimal when its not obvious whether its "tenths" or "Hundredths"?
Is it fair for me to tell him not to worry about it when pre-req courses require basic arithmetic and the lumber yard where he wants to work part time deals routinely in the use of fractions?
Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he is afraid of?
>>Maybe the fear is that people will look down on your family's homeschoolingbecause fractions are hard for him?<<
I admit, I do have that fear. But I'm more concerned about his readiness to abandon his dreams as soon as an intermediate step along the way becomes difficult.
I'm trying to think of other things he has been interested in, and remember whether or not he has persisted through the frustration...video games etc. He does, but not without ALOT of crying, whining, slamming, screaming, and carrying on about how the computer is so dumb.
That is exactly what he does when I try to push him to finish a single math problem that he finds difficult...and eventually the light bulb DOES go on and he smiles.
Does that mean I should give up at the first sign of struggle? Or keep going? I just don't know.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 00:08 2/6/03 -0500, Kristen wrote:
when he has a real need to know it. That's been the story of my life so far.
for both of you to put your cards on the table about just how much pushing
he *wants* from you. And, it might be helpful for him to hear what your
honest feelings are about pushing him or not.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Sure I can. But can he really do the things *he* wants to do withoutPerhaps he'll be able to grasp the concept when it's not so abstract but
> understanding basic arithmetic?
when he has a real need to know it. That's been the story of my life so far.
> Can he successfully complete high school when he can't add or subtractOf course! People do it all the time.
> fractions with unlike denominators or convert a fraction to a decimal
> when its not obvious whether its "tenths" or "Hundredths"?
> Is it fair for me to tell him not to worry about it when pre-reqI think these are questions you might want to ask him. It may be helpful
> courses require basic arithmetic and the lumber yard where he wants to
> work part time deals routinely in the use of fractions?
>
> Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something
> he is afraid of?
for both of you to put your cards on the table about just how much pushing
he *wants* from you. And, it might be helpful for him to hear what your
honest feelings are about pushing him or not.
> Does that mean I should give up at the first sign of struggle? Or keepAsk him.
> going? I just don't know.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/03 10:09:42 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< Sure I can. But can he really do the things *he* wants to do without
understanding basic arithmetic? >>
Why should you tell him whether he can or not?
Why not just let him go to school and see? Maybe he can do the schoolwork
fine. They only do it one day at a time. Maybe with that real reason, he
WILL catch up.
It seems that by you telling him what he will need (which is only what you
think he might need) and him not having fun learning it however it's
happening at home, you're doing school-style damage without school-style
benefit (if he's wanting to go to be with other people).
<< Can he successfully complete high school when he can't add or subtract
fractions with unlike denominators or convert a fraction to a decimal when
its not obvious whether its "tenths" or "Hundredths"?>>
He can't successfully unschool OR want to go to school the way things are
now.
What's happening is doing more damage than good.
<< Is it fair for me to tell him not to worry about it when pre-req courses
require basic arithmetic and the lumber yard where he wants to work part time
deals routinely in the use of fractions?>>
The lumber yard doesn't use Saxon math.
<< Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he
is afraid of?>>
Is it fair to go on and on about schoolstuff when we're trying all kinds of
ways to help you see that fractions exist in the real world?
He wants to work at a lumber yard, but he's never measured or bought lumber?
Really?
<<But I'm more concerned about his readiness to abandon his dreams as soon as
an intermediate step along the way becomes difficult.
school OR math, he's dealing with your fears and threats, it seems.
<< I'm trying to think of other things he has been interested in, and
remember whether or not he has persisted through the frustration...video
games etc. He does, but not without ALOT of crying, whining, slamming,
screaming, and carrying on about how the computer is so dumb.>>
So?
If that's his personality, having a mom who's pressuring him about it isn't
going to make it better.
<< That is exactly what he does when I try to push him to finish a single
math problem that he finds difficult...and eventually the light bulb DOES go
on and he smiles.
<< Does that mean I should give up at the first sign of struggle? Or keep
going? I just don't know.>>
This is about you, and not about him, it seems.
Sandra
<< Sure I can. But can he really do the things *he* wants to do without
understanding basic arithmetic? >>
Why should you tell him whether he can or not?
Why not just let him go to school and see? Maybe he can do the schoolwork
fine. They only do it one day at a time. Maybe with that real reason, he
WILL catch up.
It seems that by you telling him what he will need (which is only what you
think he might need) and him not having fun learning it however it's
happening at home, you're doing school-style damage without school-style
benefit (if he's wanting to go to be with other people).
<< Can he successfully complete high school when he can't add or subtract
fractions with unlike denominators or convert a fraction to a decimal when
its not obvious whether its "tenths" or "Hundredths"?>>
He can't successfully unschool OR want to go to school the way things are
now.
What's happening is doing more damage than good.
<< Is it fair for me to tell him not to worry about it when pre-req courses
require basic arithmetic and the lumber yard where he wants to work part time
deals routinely in the use of fractions?>>
The lumber yard doesn't use Saxon math.
<< Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he
is afraid of?>>
Is it fair to go on and on about schoolstuff when we're trying all kinds of
ways to help you see that fractions exist in the real world?
He wants to work at a lumber yard, but he's never measured or bought lumber?
Really?
<<But I'm more concerned about his readiness to abandon his dreams as soon as
an intermediate step along the way becomes difficult.
>>What's being dealt in now is your talk about school math. He's not doing
school OR math, he's dealing with your fears and threats, it seems.
<< I'm trying to think of other things he has been interested in, and
remember whether or not he has persisted through the frustration...video
games etc. He does, but not without ALOT of crying, whining, slamming,
screaming, and carrying on about how the computer is so dumb.>>
So?
If that's his personality, having a mom who's pressuring him about it isn't
going to make it better.
<< That is exactly what he does when I try to push him to finish a single
math problem that he finds difficult...and eventually the light bulb DOES go
on and he smiles.
>>That's not unschooling.
<< Does that mean I should give up at the first sign of struggle? Or keep
going? I just don't know.>>
This is about you, and not about him, it seems.
Sandra
Stephanie Elms
There was a great article in the last HEM mag by David Albert. If I remember correctly,
he said that if a kid came to a sticking point in math, the best way to get them
beyond it was to move forward. Go on to the higher math and when they see the concept
being used, they will more easily understand it. Not sure if I am explaining it well, he
did a much better job! I can't seem to find my issue though...
I can empathize with you on the stopping if he does not get it on the first try. My
6 yo is like that too. He does not write because his letters are not perfect (I'm
not pushing him) and he does not draw for the same reason. But what I have figured
out is that this is part of his learning style...basically he waits and watches and
when he is good and ready he does it overnight. He does this with most things...he
learns by watching. Even with computer games (which have been a great way for him to
learn that he does get better as time goes on), if it is too hard, his dad or I will
play it so he can watch.
Probably not much help, but it does seem like you hitting your head against a brick wall.
Can you look at another approach...maybe you could sit down and do the worksheets while
he watches (don't "teach him" but rather just think out loud while doing it), use real
world examples etc. Or just wait. There was a woman on our local hsing list whose
son was having a devil of a time doing long division. He could do it in his head, just
could not write it out on paper. She figured that was good enough and backed off. A year
later, he came and asked her to show him how to do long division. She explained it and
in 15 mins he got it perfectly. Maybe just explain to him that he is not ready to "get it"
now and it has nothing to do with him being stupid or you not teaching him. That lots
of friends in school don't get it either. That just because he does not get it now, does
not mean that he will never get it.
One of the things that I hope that my kids learn by being unschooled is that they can never be
stupid. If they don't know something it is just because they have not learned it yet.
School teaches that there are certain things that you are supposed to know by a certain age
and if you don't know it or get it then you are stupid. What baloney.
Oh, something else just came to me...if he wants to go to school for the social aspect,
does it matter what his math grade is?
Stephanie E.
he said that if a kid came to a sticking point in math, the best way to get them
beyond it was to move forward. Go on to the higher math and when they see the concept
being used, they will more easily understand it. Not sure if I am explaining it well, he
did a much better job! I can't seem to find my issue though...
I can empathize with you on the stopping if he does not get it on the first try. My
6 yo is like that too. He does not write because his letters are not perfect (I'm
not pushing him) and he does not draw for the same reason. But what I have figured
out is that this is part of his learning style...basically he waits and watches and
when he is good and ready he does it overnight. He does this with most things...he
learns by watching. Even with computer games (which have been a great way for him to
learn that he does get better as time goes on), if it is too hard, his dad or I will
play it so he can watch.
Probably not much help, but it does seem like you hitting your head against a brick wall.
Can you look at another approach...maybe you could sit down and do the worksheets while
he watches (don't "teach him" but rather just think out loud while doing it), use real
world examples etc. Or just wait. There was a woman on our local hsing list whose
son was having a devil of a time doing long division. He could do it in his head, just
could not write it out on paper. She figured that was good enough and backed off. A year
later, he came and asked her to show him how to do long division. She explained it and
in 15 mins he got it perfectly. Maybe just explain to him that he is not ready to "get it"
now and it has nothing to do with him being stupid or you not teaching him. That lots
of friends in school don't get it either. That just because he does not get it now, does
not mean that he will never get it.
One of the things that I hope that my kids learn by being unschooled is that they can never be
stupid. If they don't know something it is just because they have not learned it yet.
School teaches that there are certain things that you are supposed to know by a certain age
and if you don't know it or get it then you are stupid. What baloney.
Oh, something else just came to me...if he wants to go to school for the social aspect,
does it matter what his math grade is?
Stephanie E.
Have a Nice Day!
>>The lumber yard doesn't use Saxon math.<<LOL, touche.
<< Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something he
is afraid of?>>
>>Is it fair to go on and on about schoolstuff when we're trying all kinds ofways to help you see that fractions exist in the real world?<<
Fractions exist in the real world...but tests and teacher expectations and peer pressure exists in the world of school, where he said he wanted to be.
<<But I'm more concerned about his readiness to abandon his dreams as soon as
an intermediate step along the way becomes difficult.
>>school OR math, he's dealing with your fears and threats, it seems.<<
>>What's being dealt in now is your talk about school math. He's not doing
Maybe. After I thought about his persistance in video games (in spite of his loud way of dealing with his frustration)....I thought maybe his avoidance of fractions, etc was probably *not* an indicator of what he would do with other dreams after all.
And after I asked him if he really wanted to go back to school and he said he liked being so "wanted" by his friends, but didn't know if he really wanted to go back, it became more clear to me that he really DOESN'T know if he wants to go back.
<< I'm trying to think of other things he has been interested in, and
remember whether or not he has persisted through the frustration...video
games etc. He does, but not without ALOT of crying, whining, slamming,
screaming, and carrying on about how the computer is so dumb.>>
<< That is exactly what he does when I try to push him to finish a single
math problem that he finds difficult...and eventually the light bulb DOES go
on and he smiles.
>>Thats what I wanted to know. I didn't know if he really *wanted* to learn something and needed me to be there to help him through the tough stuff *because* he gives up so easily (or so I thought). But after thinking about the video game example, I don't think he *does* give up so easily.
>>That's not unschooling.<<
What he actually needed was to talk about what he really wanted in regard to school. And at the moment, he really doesn't know.
<< Does that mean I should give up at the first sign of struggle? Or keep
going? I just don't know.>>
This is about you, and not about him, it seems.<<
Well, its definitely about me trying to figure out what my role *should* be in helping him reach a goal he has. But my mistake was not understanding what the goal actually was.
He hasn't even *really* decided if he *wants* to go to school in the first place. And although he doesn't want to look imcompetent in school, it seems that is *not* the deciding factor in whether he will go. I was wrong about that.
And that would definitely explain why I'm having a panic attack about math preparedness, while he doesn't see the urgency of it.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Stephanie,
Thank you so much for this post. This is exactly where I've been at for the longest time...just trying to figure out if I should go back and prod or not.
I totally understand the idea of "moving forward" in math. What you described below is exactly the way my son learns (long break and then gets it overnight) And I agree with you completely what baloney it is to require certain things at certain times or otherwise be labeled "stupid".
The whole panic button came in when he said he wanted to go back to school, knowing what *they* were going to be expecting and how different that is from the freedom of unschooling.
It doesn't matter to *me* what his math grade is, but it might matter to him. And it will matter to him what his friends think, and what they think could affect the social atmosphere.
But that is assuming of course, that he is not motivated to do anything about it, which now that I'm thinking about it, does not make sense. (If he isn't motivated to do anything about it, then he isn't going to care about the consequences and if he *does* care about the consequences, he will be motivated to do something about it.)
Right now though, I'm going to let it alone I think. I'm going to let him decide about school *first* and we''ll deal with the math issue *after* that, if he even decides to go. If and when we do deal with the "math issue", I'm sure he will have already come up with a plan that he's comfortable with.
I'm going to keep reminding myself of his persistance with the things he *does* like that *are* difficult...and remind myself that this is only ONE thing he avoids in his life, instead of thinking that it applies in a global way.
Kristen
Thank you so much for this post. This is exactly where I've been at for the longest time...just trying to figure out if I should go back and prod or not.
I totally understand the idea of "moving forward" in math. What you described below is exactly the way my son learns (long break and then gets it overnight) And I agree with you completely what baloney it is to require certain things at certain times or otherwise be labeled "stupid".
The whole panic button came in when he said he wanted to go back to school, knowing what *they* were going to be expecting and how different that is from the freedom of unschooling.
It doesn't matter to *me* what his math grade is, but it might matter to him. And it will matter to him what his friends think, and what they think could affect the social atmosphere.
But that is assuming of course, that he is not motivated to do anything about it, which now that I'm thinking about it, does not make sense. (If he isn't motivated to do anything about it, then he isn't going to care about the consequences and if he *does* care about the consequences, he will be motivated to do something about it.)
Right now though, I'm going to let it alone I think. I'm going to let him decide about school *first* and we''ll deal with the math issue *after* that, if he even decides to go. If and when we do deal with the "math issue", I'm sure he will have already come up with a plan that he's comfortable with.
I'm going to keep reminding myself of his persistance with the things he *does* like that *are* difficult...and remind myself that this is only ONE thing he avoids in his life, instead of thinking that it applies in a global way.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephanie Elms
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:47 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push?
There was a great article in the last HEM mag by David Albert. If I remember correctly,
he said that if a kid came to a sticking point in math, the best way to get them
beyond it was to move forward. Go on to the higher math and when they see the concept
being used, they will more easily understand it. Not sure if I am explaining it well, he
did a much better job! I can't seem to find my issue though...
I can empathize with you on the stopping if he does not get it on the first try. My
6 yo is like that too. He does not write because his letters are not perfect (I'm
not pushing him) and he does not draw for the same reason. But what I have figured
out is that this is part of his learning style...basically he waits and watches and
when he is good and ready he does it overnight. He does this with most things...he
learns by watching. Even with computer games (which have been a great way for him to
learn that he does get better as time goes on), if it is too hard, his dad or I will
play it so he can watch.
Probably not much help, but it does seem like you hitting your head against a brick wall.
Can you look at another approach...maybe you could sit down and do the worksheets while
he watches (don't "teach him" but rather just think out loud while doing it), use real
world examples etc. Or just wait. There was a woman on our local hsing list whose
son was having a devil of a time doing long division. He could do it in his head, just
could not write it out on paper. She figured that was good enough and backed off. A year
later, he came and asked her to show him how to do long division. She explained it and
in 15 mins he got it perfectly. Maybe just explain to him that he is not ready to "get it"
now and it has nothing to do with him being stupid or you not teaching him. That lots
of friends in school don't get it either. That just because he does not get it now, does
not mean that he will never get it.
One of the things that I hope that my kids learn by being unschooled is that they can never be
stupid. If they don't know something it is just because they have not learned it yet.
School teaches that there are certain things that you are supposed to know by a certain age
and if you don't know it or get it then you are stupid. What baloney.
Oh, something else just came to me...if he wants to go to school for the social aspect,
does it matter what his math grade is?
Stephanie E.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
I thought I had posted a reply, but it doesn't seem to be here.
Here is the quick version:
I took your suggestion and asked him about some different things.
According to him:
He is not happy unless it comes naturally (his words).
I pointed out his persistance in video games and skateboarding (and the good feeling he gets when he finally "gets it") and explained it might be the same kind of thing with fractions.
Regarding school: He says about 50 of his friends have been telling him how much they want him to come back. I acknowledged that it must be nice to be so wanted and he smiled sheepishly and said "yeah".
Then I asked him if going back was what HE really wanted and he said he doesn't know.
In the past he has said he wants to go back to see his friends but doesn't want to do all the work...so I guess he's still weighing it out.
Guess we'll hold off on the math panic until AFTER he decides what he wants to do about school. If he decides to actually go back, maybe *then* he'll be motivated to "catch up". And if not, maybe he won't care about the consequences.
I only worry that he'll care about the consequences but discount his own ability to catch on. Guess we'll have to cross that bridge if we get to it.
Kristen
Here is the quick version:
I took your suggestion and asked him about some different things.
According to him:
He is not happy unless it comes naturally (his words).
I pointed out his persistance in video games and skateboarding (and the good feeling he gets when he finally "gets it") and explained it might be the same kind of thing with fractions.
Regarding school: He says about 50 of his friends have been telling him how much they want him to come back. I acknowledged that it must be nice to be so wanted and he smiled sheepishly and said "yeah".
Then I asked him if going back was what HE really wanted and he said he doesn't know.
In the past he has said he wants to go back to see his friends but doesn't want to do all the work...so I guess he's still weighing it out.
Guess we'll hold off on the math panic until AFTER he decides what he wants to do about school. If he decides to actually go back, maybe *then* he'll be motivated to "catch up". And if not, maybe he won't care about the consequences.
I only worry that he'll care about the consequences but discount his own ability to catch on. Guess we'll have to cross that bridge if we get to it.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: marji
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push?
At 00:08 2/6/03 -0500, Kristen wrote:
> Sure I can. But can he really do the things *he* wants to do without
> understanding basic arithmetic?
Perhaps he'll be able to grasp the concept when it's not so abstract but
when he has a real need to know it. That's been the story of my life so far.
> Can he successfully complete high school when he can't add or subtract
> fractions with unlike denominators or convert a fraction to a decimal
> when its not obvious whether its "tenths" or "Hundredths"?
Of course! People do it all the time.
> Is it fair for me to tell him not to worry about it when pre-req
> courses require basic arithmetic and the lumber yard where he wants to
> work part time deals routinely in the use of fractions?
>
> Is it fair to him to let him give up whenever he is avoiding something
> he is afraid of?
I think these are questions you might want to ask him. It may be helpful
for both of you to put your cards on the table about just how much pushing
he *wants* from you. And, it might be helpful for him to hear what your
honest feelings are about pushing him or not.
> Does that mean I should give up at the first sign of struggle? Or keep
> going? I just don't know.
Ask him.
Marji
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/03 11:44:01 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< If he decides to actually go back, maybe *then* he'll be motivated to
"catch up". And if not, maybe he won't care about the consequences. >>
If he goes back, each day he has a math assignment there will be HOURS of
time for him to figure out what they're talking about. It won't be like
he'll go there and be out of communication with the real world, or unable to
get help. And that way he'll have a real need to know, not a speculative,
theoretical need to know.
And it's also possible that that particular math teacher will just click for
him, or the book will be clear or just his style (odds are small, on math
books, in my experience, but it's possible...)
There are math help websites too, if he gets stuck on a particular concept.
Sandra
<< If he decides to actually go back, maybe *then* he'll be motivated to
"catch up". And if not, maybe he won't care about the consequences. >>
If he goes back, each day he has a math assignment there will be HOURS of
time for him to figure out what they're talking about. It won't be like
he'll go there and be out of communication with the real world, or unable to
get help. And that way he'll have a real need to know, not a speculative,
theoretical need to know.
And it's also possible that that particular math teacher will just click for
him, or the book will be clear or just his style (odds are small, on math
books, in my experience, but it's possible...)
There are math help websites too, if he gets stuck on a particular concept.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/03 9:44:42 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< I understand that "school at home" (even in one subject), and "going to
school" are not unschooling, but I don't understand how its not unschooling
if this is something that is his choosing and I'm facilitating what he wants
to do. >>
Because it's not natural learning, and it's not trusting that he will learn
what he wants to learn when he actually wants and needs to. It's about
school's schedule. But worse, it's about a mom's personal fears and
perceptions of what MIGHT happen. And if it keeps being about extinguishing
his confidence and joy, I think it's too stressful a topic for this list.
We could ask our neighbors to tell us school stories about homework and kids
feeling stupid. Personally, I find that to be more sorrow than I want to
handle. I'm trying to turn away from school sorrow toward the joys of
learning.
I'm answering e-mail backwards and on this topic I probably shouldn't have
been!!
Sandra
<< I understand that "school at home" (even in one subject), and "going to
school" are not unschooling, but I don't understand how its not unschooling
if this is something that is his choosing and I'm facilitating what he wants
to do. >>
Because it's not natural learning, and it's not trusting that he will learn
what he wants to learn when he actually wants and needs to. It's about
school's schedule. But worse, it's about a mom's personal fears and
perceptions of what MIGHT happen. And if it keeps being about extinguishing
his confidence and joy, I think it's too stressful a topic for this list.
We could ask our neighbors to tell us school stories about homework and kids
feeling stupid. Personally, I find that to be more sorrow than I want to
handle. I'm trying to turn away from school sorrow toward the joys of
learning.
I'm answering e-mail backwards and on this topic I probably shouldn't have
been!!
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/03 9:55:50 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< I have thought about having one of his former teachers tutor him..one that
he really liked. >>
How long was he in school?
Could you give us another run-down of his school and homeschooling history
please?
Sandra
<< I have thought about having one of his former teachers tutor him..one that
he really liked. >>
How long was he in school?
Could you give us another run-down of his school and homeschooling history
please?
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 2/5/03 11:33 PM, Have a Nice Day! at litlrooh@... wrote:
it very gently, presenting patterns for kids to make the discoveries
themselves. (Like in the early books similar addition and multiplication and
subtraction and division problems are mixed together so that their
relationships are there on the page.)
Can he skip over the fractions and move on? Though some chapters build on
the previous chapters, not all of them do. Sometimes they start on something
unrelated.
Joyce
> It doesn't matter how he learns fractions. I don't care how he learns it.Has he tried the Keys To workbooks? There's a set just on fractions. They do
> And since he wants to be competent in it, I have come up with all kinds of
> different ways to try and help him learn it, from text books of his choosing,
> to hands on, to cooking, to baking, to building.
it very gently, presenting patterns for kids to make the discoveries
themselves. (Like in the early books similar addition and multiplication and
subtraction and division problems are mixed together so that their
relationships are there on the page.)
Can he skip over the fractions and move on? Though some chapters build on
the previous chapters, not all of them do. Sometimes they start on something
unrelated.
Joyce
Heidi <[email protected]>
What about dual enrollment? In Idaho, students can attend the public
school of their choice, for whatever courses they want from public
school. Abbie, 15, enrolled in drama this year and has been loving
it. She gets to see lots of kids every day, and has been in a couple
of plays. And she is home for her education, otherwise. Maybe your
boy could take a class in something he enjoys, and a sports event,
thus getting in there with his buds, and simply walk on by the math
class!
Heidi
school of their choice, for whatever courses they want from public
school. Abbie, 15, enrolled in drama this year and has been loving
it. She gets to see lots of kids every day, and has been in a couple
of plays. And she is home for her education, otherwise. Maybe your
boy could take a class in something he enjoys, and a sports event,
thus getting in there with his buds, and simply walk on by the math
class!
Heidi
Rose
Hi,
I'm new here, and been just reading for awhile as told to : ) However, I had one suggestion for this boy, if it has not already been tried? My 14 yo son was helped TREMENDOUSLY by the "KEY TO" fractions workbooks. Before using them he also just did not " get it" They start out so simply that my 8 yo could do it, but, if your son does not feel foolish going back that far, ..I would recommend it : ) Take it or leave it!!! [ meaning no-one asked for my advice] : ) LOL
Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
**Saxon was HIS suggestion, something he CHOSE. He wanted to do it. How
is that not
unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something
he couldn't do easily.**
OK. He chose Saxon. Is he free to unchoose it? Choose something else?
Take a long break?
Betsy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm new here, and been just reading for awhile as told to : ) However, I had one suggestion for this boy, if it has not already been tried? My 14 yo son was helped TREMENDOUSLY by the "KEY TO" fractions workbooks. Before using them he also just did not " get it" They start out so simply that my 8 yo could do it, but, if your son does not feel foolish going back that far, ..I would recommend it : ) Take it or leave it!!! [ meaning no-one asked for my advice] : ) LOL
Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
**Saxon was HIS suggestion, something he CHOSE. He wanted to do it. How
is that not
unschooling? And he was very happy doing it UNTIL he got to something
he couldn't do easily.**
OK. He chose Saxon. Is he free to unchoose it? Choose something else?
Take a long break?
Betsy
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**I have thought about having one of his former teachers tutor him..one
that he really liked.
I'll be honest though and say that I'm afraid she will sit in judgement
of my "laxness" in not
forcing him to do academics every day and blame me for the fact that he
doesn't understand
this stuff. She thought I was nuts to take him out anyway.**
The whole topic of math gets more difficult if both you and your son
feel ashamed of what did or didn't get learned already. Can you work
through that and let that go?
I'm not sure that I believe that grinding away at math will improve your
son's comprehension. I really think that there does have to be that
epiphany that he's expecting. When a student is interested and not
confused, and material is not too difficult, then learning really should
be enjoyable and feel nearly effortless. (I get the feeling that this
may not be something that you believe deep down in your gut about math.)
Can anyone comment on Frank Smith's book about learning math, The Glass
Wall? I wanted to read it, but was too cheap to buy it.
Betsy
that he really liked.
I'll be honest though and say that I'm afraid she will sit in judgement
of my "laxness" in not
forcing him to do academics every day and blame me for the fact that he
doesn't understand
this stuff. She thought I was nuts to take him out anyway.**
The whole topic of math gets more difficult if both you and your son
feel ashamed of what did or didn't get learned already. Can you work
through that and let that go?
I'm not sure that I believe that grinding away at math will improve your
son's comprehension. I really think that there does have to be that
epiphany that he's expecting. When a student is interested and not
confused, and material is not too difficult, then learning really should
be enjoyable and feel nearly effortless. (I get the feeling that this
may not be something that you believe deep down in your gut about math.)
Can anyone comment on Frank Smith's book about learning math, The Glass
Wall? I wanted to read it, but was too cheap to buy it.
Betsy
Betsy
(I'm behind on this discussion and some of these points were already
covered by others. Sorry for the duplication.)
Hi, Kristen --
I can see that there is a lot of thought in your posts.
I want to be radical here (again) without being alarming.
In school, in math, lessons always proceed at a certain pace, whether
kids are actually succeeding in learning the material or not. That
doesn't mean this is the right way to learn. Understanding doesn't come
to students at a steady rate, even though the class goes tromping along.
Being able to stop and regroup when confused is a big advantage of
homeschooling. It may seem wrong, based on what we are used to, but it isn't.
I gather that your son has come to a full stop, and that doesn't seem to
you like it's going to work. Um, maybe not. But slowing way, way down
and looking for alternative methods sounds good. Removing the first
source of confusion sounds good. Getting a tutor for a short time might
be good, if that's what your son wants.
It might also be possible for a freshman to take a remedial math class,
and catch up to the college prep track later, in summer school or junior
college. (Would that upset you or your son?)
If you are tired of buying books, there are some interesting websites
online that demonstrate math concepts (that may be better than books).
I think animated illustrations of math are particularly enlightening.
(My husband needed to understand a little bit of trigonometry for a
class he was taking, and found good illustrations and explanations online.)
Maybe you could skip the fraction reduction part of the math text and go
on to the next lesson that doesn't use it? Eventually you'll find
places where those techniques ARE needed, but it may click better for
your son to see what the techniques are used FOR.
Betsy
PS I have a young adult friend who is taking math at the Junior
College, math that is mostly review for him, and he still has to rant
and rave and vent a lot of emotional frustration in order to get through
the homework.
**I'd say yes he could "Unchoose" it. But he's already been through 6
different kinds of books,
all his choosing,...and always wants to switch when he gets to something
he doesn't
understand, instead of just working his way through it.
It doesn't matter how he learns fractions. I don't care how he learns
it. And since he wants
to be competent in it, I have come up with all kinds of different ways
to try and help him
learn it, from text books of his choosing, to hands on, to cooking, to
baking, to building.
In each and every case, every time he comes up against something he
doesn't understand
(usually fractions) he panics and gives up.
The bottom line is that fractions are not going to be easy for him to
learn if he really wants
to be competent in it. He is going to have to put some effort into it
in order to finally
understand it. But he believes it should come to him like an epiphany
and that since it
doesn't, he is just too stupid to learn it. **
covered by others. Sorry for the duplication.)
Hi, Kristen --
I can see that there is a lot of thought in your posts.
I want to be radical here (again) without being alarming.
In school, in math, lessons always proceed at a certain pace, whether
kids are actually succeeding in learning the material or not. That
doesn't mean this is the right way to learn. Understanding doesn't come
to students at a steady rate, even though the class goes tromping along.
Being able to stop and regroup when confused is a big advantage of
homeschooling. It may seem wrong, based on what we are used to, but it isn't.
I gather that your son has come to a full stop, and that doesn't seem to
you like it's going to work. Um, maybe not. But slowing way, way down
and looking for alternative methods sounds good. Removing the first
source of confusion sounds good. Getting a tutor for a short time might
be good, if that's what your son wants.
It might also be possible for a freshman to take a remedial math class,
and catch up to the college prep track later, in summer school or junior
college. (Would that upset you or your son?)
If you are tired of buying books, there are some interesting websites
online that demonstrate math concepts (that may be better than books).
I think animated illustrations of math are particularly enlightening.
(My husband needed to understand a little bit of trigonometry for a
class he was taking, and found good illustrations and explanations online.)
Maybe you could skip the fraction reduction part of the math text and go
on to the next lesson that doesn't use it? Eventually you'll find
places where those techniques ARE needed, but it may click better for
your son to see what the techniques are used FOR.
Betsy
PS I have a young adult friend who is taking math at the Junior
College, math that is mostly review for him, and he still has to rant
and rave and vent a lot of emotional frustration in order to get through
the homework.
**I'd say yes he could "Unchoose" it. But he's already been through 6
different kinds of books,
all his choosing,...and always wants to switch when he gets to something
he doesn't
understand, instead of just working his way through it.
It doesn't matter how he learns fractions. I don't care how he learns
it. And since he wants
to be competent in it, I have come up with all kinds of different ways
to try and help him
learn it, from text books of his choosing, to hands on, to cooking, to
baking, to building.
In each and every case, every time he comes up against something he
doesn't understand
(usually fractions) he panics and gives up.
The bottom line is that fractions are not going to be easy for him to
learn if he really wants
to be competent in it. He is going to have to put some effort into it
in order to finally
understand it. But he believes it should come to him like an epiphany
and that since it
doesn't, he is just too stupid to learn it. **
Have a Nice Day!
Thanks Betsy.
I was thinking about it more this morning.
I'm going to talk to him some more today. Yesterday, in spite of his frustration he *did* get it and completed a single problem. Maybe what I'll do is just slow down enough for him to just work one problem each day. That would not be nearly as overwhelming to him.
But I need to talk to him first.
Kristen
I was thinking about it more this morning.
I'm going to talk to him some more today. Yesterday, in spite of his frustration he *did* get it and completed a single problem. Maybe what I'll do is just slow down enough for him to just work one problem each day. That would not be nearly as overwhelming to him.
But I need to talk to him first.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Betsy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] When to push?
(I'm behind on this discussion and some of these points were already
covered by others. Sorry for the duplication.)
Hi, Kristen --
I can see that there is a lot of thought in your posts.
I want to be radical here (again) without being alarming.
In school, in math, lessons always proceed at a certain pace, whether
kids are actually succeeding in learning the material or not. That
doesn't mean this is the right way to learn. Understanding doesn't come
to students at a steady rate, even though the class goes tromping along.
Being able to stop and regroup when confused is a big advantage of
homeschooling. It may seem wrong, based on what we are used to, but it isn't.
I gather that your son has come to a full stop, and that doesn't seem to
you like it's going to work. Um, maybe not. But slowing way, way down
and looking for alternative methods sounds good. Removing the first
source of confusion sounds good. Getting a tutor for a short time might
be good, if that's what your son wants.
It might also be possible for a freshman to take a remedial math class,
and catch up to the college prep track later, in summer school or junior
college. (Would that upset you or your son?)
If you are tired of buying books, there are some interesting websites
online that demonstrate math concepts (that may be better than books).
I think animated illustrations of math are particularly enlightening.
(My husband needed to understand a little bit of trigonometry for a
class he was taking, and found good illustrations and explanations online.)
Maybe you could skip the fraction reduction part of the math text and go
on to the next lesson that doesn't use it? Eventually you'll find
places where those techniques ARE needed, but it may click better for
your son to see what the techniques are used FOR.
Betsy
PS I have a young adult friend who is taking math at the Junior
College, math that is mostly review for him, and he still has to rant
and rave and vent a lot of emotional frustration in order to get through
the homework.
**I'd say yes he could "Unchoose" it. But he's already been through 6
different kinds of books,
all his choosing,...and always wants to switch when he gets to something
he doesn't
understand, instead of just working his way through it.
It doesn't matter how he learns fractions. I don't care how he learns
it. And since he wants
to be competent in it, I have come up with all kinds of different ways
to try and help him
learn it, from text books of his choosing, to hands on, to cooking, to
baking, to building.
In each and every case, every time he comes up against something he
doesn't understand
(usually fractions) he panics and gives up.
The bottom line is that fractions are not going to be easy for him to
learn if he really wants
to be competent in it. He is going to have to put some effort into it
in order to finally
understand it. But he believes it should come to him like an epiphany
and that since it
doesn't, he is just too stupid to learn it. **
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
I'm not sure that I believe that grinding away at math will improve your
son's comprehension. I really think that there does have to be that
epiphany that he's expecting. When a student is interested and not
confused, and material is not too difficult, then learning really should
be enjoyable and feel nearly effortless. (I get the feeling that this
may not be something that you believe deep down in your gut about math.)<<
I *do* believe that, but because of his desire to go back to school, I was worried about the time factor and how that might conflict with the timing of an epiphany.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
son's comprehension. I really think that there does have to be that
epiphany that he's expecting. When a student is interested and not
confused, and material is not too difficult, then learning really should
be enjoyable and feel nearly effortless. (I get the feeling that this
may not be something that you believe deep down in your gut about math.)<<
I *do* believe that, but because of his desire to go back to school, I was worried about the time factor and how that might conflict with the timing of an epiphany.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
<< I have thought about having one of his former teachers tutor him..one that
he really liked. >>
How long was he in school?
Could you give us another run-down of his school and homeschooling history
please?
He was in school through 4th grade. He liked his fourth grade teacher a lot (she taught him in both 3rd and 4th grades).
He started homeschooling in 5th grade. We started out doing a relaxed "school at home" but his resistance to math and writing led me to unschooling.
Then off and on he would say he wanted to go back to school and so I would try to help him prepare, only to have him get upset so then I would stop.
We took a year off from any formal stuff at all. And then at the beginning of this year he wanted to do something formal to get ready for high school.
So we started again, and things were going very well. Then we took a 3 month break and since we've gone back it, we've coincidentally come up against fractions again...the stuff where he always gets frustrated.
Assuming he wanted to go back to school and did not want to feel incompetent in math, I was panicking about what to do.
But it turns out he really doesn't know if he wants to go back. So we need to deal with that decision first.
Kristen
Sandra
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
he really liked. >>
How long was he in school?
Could you give us another run-down of his school and homeschooling history
please?
He was in school through 4th grade. He liked his fourth grade teacher a lot (she taught him in both 3rd and 4th grades).
He started homeschooling in 5th grade. We started out doing a relaxed "school at home" but his resistance to math and writing led me to unschooling.
Then off and on he would say he wanted to go back to school and so I would try to help him prepare, only to have him get upset so then I would stop.
We took a year off from any formal stuff at all. And then at the beginning of this year he wanted to do something formal to get ready for high school.
So we started again, and things were going very well. Then we took a 3 month break and since we've gone back it, we've coincidentally come up against fractions again...the stuff where he always gets frustrated.
Assuming he wanted to go back to school and did not want to feel incompetent in math, I was panicking about what to do.
But it turns out he really doesn't know if he wants to go back. So we need to deal with that decision first.
Kristen
Sandra
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
>>Has he tried the Keys To workbooks?<<Yes, he did the entire set and at the end, he still didn't understand how and when to apply converting denominators to add and subtract, mainly because there are too many steps to it.
The real problem is that he gets distracted multiple times throughout the entire process of solving a single problem (this is as I'm showing him how to do it).
He interrupts me to talk about other unrelated things, or tease the dog, or get a drink, or get something to eat, or *all* of these things...right in the middle of a single problem. Then he comes back to it after each interruption and forgets what I was trying to explain.
As a result of all the interruptions, he doesn't retain the steps to solving it and can't apply them to the next problem.
>>Can he skip over the fractions and move on?<<I'm thinking about doing either that or just slowing down and doing one problem per day (if he still wants to, I have to talk to him first).
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]