siblings fighting and being mean (for wanderfree/Christine)
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/03 2:49:25 AM, wanderfree@... writes:
-=-I can't just let it go because there seems to be no natural consequence
for hitting. -=-
I've told kids from time to time when it was fast and severe that if they do
NOT learn to control their tempers they could end up in prison or dead.
Because just in brief, the natural consequences of being a violent adult are
often retaliatory violence or conviction of a crime.
For little kids at home, I separate them. A trick I learned as a Jr. High
teacher has served well. To break up a fight, grab the loser and remove him.
He WANTS to be saved. If you grab the winning participant, you might get
hurt. If you remove the underdog, they both save face. He can think he
wouldn't have necessarily lost. The winner still thinks he won.
I talk to the apparent victim first. Sometimes it turns out he wasn't such a
victim. But In our case at home, with my boys, that has usually been Marty,
who's younger by two and a half years. At the moment they're 16 and 14 and
physical problems might be over. Kirby's learned enough karate that he's
developed the self control that ideally comes with being able to seriously
hurt someone. And they're both verbal, so physical isn't their first
thought. So what I'm going to tell is a summary of various things over the
years when they were younger, in various stages.
What has worked best is taking the one away and letting him tell me what
happened. While he's calming down and stating his case, I'm asking him what
he did to try to make things better. "Did you think of doing this?" "No,"
or "Yes, but it didn't work."
So partly it's a session in possibilities. Then that kid's calmer. But I
remind them that I'm responsible for seeing that BOTH of them are safe in
their own homes, and happy.
Then I go to the other kid (usually Kirby) who's calm by then too, and ask
for his side. He tells me the whole thing, and I ask him at the end (since
I'm wanting his whole story to compare to the other whole version) whether he
doesn't think he could have prevented it by this or that.
Then I say "Marty says you said/did this."
Unfortunately in many of the scenarios, Marty had sneaked up close enough to
hear and jumped in with "I DID NOT!" so I have to go and deposit Marty
elsewhere and say later "That really didn't help me convince him, y'know."
So Kirby tells me his version of the evils Marty contributed to the argument.
I remind Kirby he's older and has a responsibility to show some maturity and
set an example (as appropriate, if appropriate). And I tell him yada yada,
Marty needs to be safe in his own home, and not feel like his life is ruined
because he has an older brother who's bullying him (if appropriate...)
Finally I'd go back to Marty and say "Why didn't you tell me this part?" or
"Kirby says you threw this/said this..." And I go through it again with
Marty.
I know lots of people say to let kids work out their own stuff but I think
it's lazy at best and sadistic at worst. My parents raised two cousins of
mine and one was mean and violent and frustrated and hurt both me and my
sister. There should have been more active supervision and peace making and
advisement.
I know some people believe each soul chose their family and they need to
learn to work out their own interactions. I think it's random, personally.
I don't think any one of my kids needs to be the material on which another
kid works out his karma unchecked anyway.
So in the interest of helping them develop a set of alternative responses and
social skills, and keeping them safe, I let each tell his story in private
instead of in front of the other. It cuts out arguments instead of turning a
little argument into a big one (Jerry Springer show style, in worst cases).
And it lets each kid vent to me about his frustrations about the other one.
They NEED to express that. Better to me than to friends outside the family,
I think. Because in this case they have a lot of mutual friends. It's to
the benefit of lots of people for them to be sociably at peace. And it lets
me commiserate with them about the flaws of the sibling and to tell them how
hard it is to be a parent and to love both kids but to see when one is being
hurt without me saying in front of one "Yeah, I know it can be a drag" in
front of the other one.
That might not be clear. It's not that I'll say to Marty "Yeah, Kirby sucks,
doesn't he?" It's more like "Marty, I really did want to have you. I LOVE
you. And things would be different if you were the oldest. I'm sorry it
frustrates you. But I was an oldest and there are disadvantages to that
too." It helps the relationship between me and each child for me to be able
to discuss the emotions and reactions in some depth with them.
On verbal abuse, one thing that has worked here is to remind them that it's
their own reputation and self/soul that they're hurting when they're mean.
If someone is cruel, it makes him a cruel person. It might hurt the other
kid too, but it immediately hurts the one who was mean for meanness sake.
And it disturbs the peace of the others around them. If two kids are
fighting, the other kid isn't having peace either.
Good luck! I wish you could get back to San Diego and to the situation you
had before. I hope things get better for you soon.
Sandra
-=-I can't just let it go because there seems to be no natural consequence
for hitting. -=-
I've told kids from time to time when it was fast and severe that if they do
NOT learn to control their tempers they could end up in prison or dead.
Because just in brief, the natural consequences of being a violent adult are
often retaliatory violence or conviction of a crime.
For little kids at home, I separate them. A trick I learned as a Jr. High
teacher has served well. To break up a fight, grab the loser and remove him.
He WANTS to be saved. If you grab the winning participant, you might get
hurt. If you remove the underdog, they both save face. He can think he
wouldn't have necessarily lost. The winner still thinks he won.
I talk to the apparent victim first. Sometimes it turns out he wasn't such a
victim. But In our case at home, with my boys, that has usually been Marty,
who's younger by two and a half years. At the moment they're 16 and 14 and
physical problems might be over. Kirby's learned enough karate that he's
developed the self control that ideally comes with being able to seriously
hurt someone. And they're both verbal, so physical isn't their first
thought. So what I'm going to tell is a summary of various things over the
years when they were younger, in various stages.
What has worked best is taking the one away and letting him tell me what
happened. While he's calming down and stating his case, I'm asking him what
he did to try to make things better. "Did you think of doing this?" "No,"
or "Yes, but it didn't work."
So partly it's a session in possibilities. Then that kid's calmer. But I
remind them that I'm responsible for seeing that BOTH of them are safe in
their own homes, and happy.
Then I go to the other kid (usually Kirby) who's calm by then too, and ask
for his side. He tells me the whole thing, and I ask him at the end (since
I'm wanting his whole story to compare to the other whole version) whether he
doesn't think he could have prevented it by this or that.
Then I say "Marty says you said/did this."
Unfortunately in many of the scenarios, Marty had sneaked up close enough to
hear and jumped in with "I DID NOT!" so I have to go and deposit Marty
elsewhere and say later "That really didn't help me convince him, y'know."
So Kirby tells me his version of the evils Marty contributed to the argument.
I remind Kirby he's older and has a responsibility to show some maturity and
set an example (as appropriate, if appropriate). And I tell him yada yada,
Marty needs to be safe in his own home, and not feel like his life is ruined
because he has an older brother who's bullying him (if appropriate...)
Finally I'd go back to Marty and say "Why didn't you tell me this part?" or
"Kirby says you threw this/said this..." And I go through it again with
Marty.
I know lots of people say to let kids work out their own stuff but I think
it's lazy at best and sadistic at worst. My parents raised two cousins of
mine and one was mean and violent and frustrated and hurt both me and my
sister. There should have been more active supervision and peace making and
advisement.
I know some people believe each soul chose their family and they need to
learn to work out their own interactions. I think it's random, personally.
I don't think any one of my kids needs to be the material on which another
kid works out his karma unchecked anyway.
So in the interest of helping them develop a set of alternative responses and
social skills, and keeping them safe, I let each tell his story in private
instead of in front of the other. It cuts out arguments instead of turning a
little argument into a big one (Jerry Springer show style, in worst cases).
And it lets each kid vent to me about his frustrations about the other one.
They NEED to express that. Better to me than to friends outside the family,
I think. Because in this case they have a lot of mutual friends. It's to
the benefit of lots of people for them to be sociably at peace. And it lets
me commiserate with them about the flaws of the sibling and to tell them how
hard it is to be a parent and to love both kids but to see when one is being
hurt without me saying in front of one "Yeah, I know it can be a drag" in
front of the other one.
That might not be clear. It's not that I'll say to Marty "Yeah, Kirby sucks,
doesn't he?" It's more like "Marty, I really did want to have you. I LOVE
you. And things would be different if you were the oldest. I'm sorry it
frustrates you. But I was an oldest and there are disadvantages to that
too." It helps the relationship between me and each child for me to be able
to discuss the emotions and reactions in some depth with them.
On verbal abuse, one thing that has worked here is to remind them that it's
their own reputation and self/soul that they're hurting when they're mean.
If someone is cruel, it makes him a cruel person. It might hurt the other
kid too, but it immediately hurts the one who was mean for meanness sake.
And it disturbs the peace of the others around them. If two kids are
fighting, the other kid isn't having peace either.
Good luck! I wish you could get back to San Diego and to the situation you
had before. I hope things get better for you soon.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
Sandra,
Thank you so much for posting this. My own kids fight A LOT and I was also at a loss to deal with it.
I hadn't thought to "remove the apparent victim" first. I usually end up separating them, but then wasn't sure how to follow up. I always felt like in order to be "fair" (and not knowing what really happened) I had to send them both to their rooms. I've had the talks like you describe, but was never sure what to do with the end result because the kids do lie to get each other in trouble.
And I agree, showing empathy would probably help a lot, but thats an area I'm really weak on because I had very little empathy shown to me, and even now I have very little empathy shown to me when I absolutely need it.
My own needs drain me sometimes when I have no support and its not the kids' fault, but sometimes I don't have anything left anymore.
Kristen
Thank you so much for posting this. My own kids fight A LOT and I was also at a loss to deal with it.
I hadn't thought to "remove the apparent victim" first. I usually end up separating them, but then wasn't sure how to follow up. I always felt like in order to be "fair" (and not knowing what really happened) I had to send them both to their rooms. I've had the talks like you describe, but was never sure what to do with the end result because the kids do lie to get each other in trouble.
And I agree, showing empathy would probably help a lot, but thats an area I'm really weak on because I had very little empathy shown to me, and even now I have very little empathy shown to me when I absolutely need it.
My own needs drain me sometimes when I have no support and its not the kids' fault, but sometimes I don't have anything left anymore.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:13 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] siblings fighting and being mean (for wanderfree/Christine)
In a message dated 2/2/03 2:49:25 AM, wanderfree@... writes:
-=-I can't just let it go because there seems to be no natural consequence
for hitting. -=-
I've told kids from time to time when it was fast and severe that if they do
NOT learn to control their tempers they could end up in prison or dead.
Because just in brief, the natural consequences of being a violent adult are
often retaliatory violence or conviction of a crime.
For little kids at home, I separate them. A trick I learned as a Jr. High
teacher has served well. To break up a fight, grab the loser and remove him.
He WANTS to be saved. If you grab the winning participant, you might get
hurt. If you remove the underdog, they both save face. He can think he
wouldn't have necessarily lost. The winner still thinks he won.
I talk to the apparent victim first. Sometimes it turns out he wasn't such a
victim. But In our case at home, with my boys, that has usually been Marty,
who's younger by two and a half years. At the moment they're 16 and 14 and
physical problems might be over. Kirby's learned enough karate that he's
developed the self control that ideally comes with being able to seriously
hurt someone. And they're both verbal, so physical isn't their first
thought. So what I'm going to tell is a summary of various things over the
years when they were younger, in various stages.
What has worked best is taking the one away and letting him tell me what
happened. While he's calming down and stating his case, I'm asking him what
he did to try to make things better. "Did you think of doing this?" "No,"
or "Yes, but it didn't work."
So partly it's a session in possibilities. Then that kid's calmer. But I
remind them that I'm responsible for seeing that BOTH of them are safe in
their own homes, and happy.
Then I go to the other kid (usually Kirby) who's calm by then too, and ask
for his side. He tells me the whole thing, and I ask him at the end (since
I'm wanting his whole story to compare to the other whole version) whether he
doesn't think he could have prevented it by this or that.
Then I say "Marty says you said/did this."
Unfortunately in many of the scenarios, Marty had sneaked up close enough to
hear and jumped in with "I DID NOT!" so I have to go and deposit Marty
elsewhere and say later "That really didn't help me convince him, y'know."
So Kirby tells me his version of the evils Marty contributed to the argument.
I remind Kirby he's older and has a responsibility to show some maturity and
set an example (as appropriate, if appropriate). And I tell him yada yada,
Marty needs to be safe in his own home, and not feel like his life is ruined
because he has an older brother who's bullying him (if appropriate...)
Finally I'd go back to Marty and say "Why didn't you tell me this part?" or
"Kirby says you threw this/said this..." And I go through it again with
Marty.
I know lots of people say to let kids work out their own stuff but I think
it's lazy at best and sadistic at worst. My parents raised two cousins of
mine and one was mean and violent and frustrated and hurt both me and my
sister. There should have been more active supervision and peace making and
advisement.
I know some people believe each soul chose their family and they need to
learn to work out their own interactions. I think it's random, personally.
I don't think any one of my kids needs to be the material on which another
kid works out his karma unchecked anyway.
So in the interest of helping them develop a set of alternative responses and
social skills, and keeping them safe, I let each tell his story in private
instead of in front of the other. It cuts out arguments instead of turning a
little argument into a big one (Jerry Springer show style, in worst cases).
And it lets each kid vent to me about his frustrations about the other one.
They NEED to express that. Better to me than to friends outside the family,
I think. Because in this case they have a lot of mutual friends. It's to
the benefit of lots of people for them to be sociably at peace. And it lets
me commiserate with them about the flaws of the sibling and to tell them how
hard it is to be a parent and to love both kids but to see when one is being
hurt without me saying in front of one "Yeah, I know it can be a drag" in
front of the other one.
That might not be clear. It's not that I'll say to Marty "Yeah, Kirby sucks,
doesn't he?" It's more like "Marty, I really did want to have you. I LOVE
you. And things would be different if you were the oldest. I'm sorry it
frustrates you. But I was an oldest and there are disadvantages to that
too." It helps the relationship between me and each child for me to be able
to discuss the emotions and reactions in some depth with them.
On verbal abuse, one thing that has worked here is to remind them that it's
their own reputation and self/soul that they're hurting when they're mean.
If someone is cruel, it makes him a cruel person. It might hurt the other
kid too, but it immediately hurts the one who was mean for meanness sake.
And it disturbs the peace of the others around them. If two kids are
fighting, the other kid isn't having peace either.
Good luck! I wish you could get back to San Diego and to the situation you
had before. I hope things get better for you soon.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
Kristen,
That's when you give yourself a big hug and offer yourself empathy. Try to
think of yourself as someone else who is in your position and think about
the empathy you would have for that *other* person. That is the empathy you
yourself are due. Sounds wacky, but it can help.
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson
And I agree, showing empathy would probably help a lot, but thats an area
I'm really weak on because I had very little empathy shown to me, and even
now I have very little empathy shown to me when I absolutely need it.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's when you give yourself a big hug and offer yourself empathy. Try to
think of yourself as someone else who is in your position and think about
the empathy you would have for that *other* person. That is the empathy you
yourself are due. Sounds wacky, but it can help.
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson
And I agree, showing empathy would probably help a lot, but thats an area
I'm really weak on because I had very little empathy shown to me, and even
now I have very little empathy shown to me when I absolutely need it.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Thanks :o)
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Angela
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] siblings fighting and being mean (for wanderfree/Christine)
Kristen,
That's when you give yourself a big hug and offer yourself empathy. Try to
think of yourself as someone else who is in your position and think about
the empathy you would have for that *other* person. That is the empathy you
yourself are due. Sounds wacky, but it can help.
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson
And I agree, showing empathy would probably help a lot, but thats an area
I'm really weak on because I had very little empathy shown to me, and even
now I have very little empathy shown to me when I absolutely need it.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]