Speaking into a child's life
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
One of the by-products of this lifestyle I'm finding is that my kids
are suddenly aware that I am trusting them to make more
decisions than they used to. One of my kids (who is the
parent-pleaser of the group) keeps checking in with me to see if I
think they're doing okay. :) So sweet.
Last night, though, my dh went through a bit of the transitional
panic some of us have gone through at times. "Can I say
anything to them?" "They're young." "Isn't it okay to just "parent?""
"What about common sense?"
Some of what we came up with I want to run by this group and
see what you think.
I liked that Sandra said that if we are new to this lifestyle, we can
ease into it. Don't rush ahead of where we have peace and
confidence because then we can end up in chaos and anger
since we did something dishonestly.
So we stopped to look at all the changes we've made that we
feel just fine about:
Limits off of X box and computer
Freedom to eat when you want to and no requirements to eat
what I made for dinner
No more school book work required (or done at all)
Household help is much more on a volunteer or "ask for help"
basis (So far everyone wanted to continue with the routines we
have so there are still predictable "jobs" but these re far more
flexible than they used to be even)
Phone calls and IM are open for whenever they want them
bedtimes are no longer set or firm
More movies
Some of the things we are thrilled about:
Kids are far more gracious to each other (and I already thought
they were pretty good!)
They are jumping up to help me any time I ask. Really. Amazes
me.
There's such a good spirit in the house.
Lots of conversations about the future, about right now, about
what they thought before and how they see things today.
So here's where we're at. Dh is feeling that he doesn't want his
13 yodd on the Internet after midnight. He wonders if he can say:
"You know, I think these little guys really need to be in bed."
I told him as we talked that I believe we are earning the right to
offer our kids our opinions and even at times to suggest things
based on our experiences because they know that we aren't
simply imposing our view of life on them at every turn. Last night
when I suggested my dd get off the computer and we talked
about the Internet and chatting with strangers (again--we've had
this discussion and she doesn't talk to strangers, but my dh
wanted to remind her of our concerns). She was fine with that.
So am I right in assuming that because we are giving them room
to be themselves, to test out how to manage their lives with our
support, does it also hold that when some of the issues parents
do care about (where they drive, who they dte, how young and so
on) come up, we will be able to talk about these things and
come to shred consensus because we've been considerate on
so many other levels?
I also told my dh that if there is a specific place he is
uncomfortable with where we re, we all need to feel the freedom
to express it, to go slowly and to share the way the process if
affecting us as much as how it is affecting them. Does that
sound reasonable to you all too? Any cautions?
Thanks.
Julie B
are suddenly aware that I am trusting them to make more
decisions than they used to. One of my kids (who is the
parent-pleaser of the group) keeps checking in with me to see if I
think they're doing okay. :) So sweet.
Last night, though, my dh went through a bit of the transitional
panic some of us have gone through at times. "Can I say
anything to them?" "They're young." "Isn't it okay to just "parent?""
"What about common sense?"
Some of what we came up with I want to run by this group and
see what you think.
I liked that Sandra said that if we are new to this lifestyle, we can
ease into it. Don't rush ahead of where we have peace and
confidence because then we can end up in chaos and anger
since we did something dishonestly.
So we stopped to look at all the changes we've made that we
feel just fine about:
Limits off of X box and computer
Freedom to eat when you want to and no requirements to eat
what I made for dinner
No more school book work required (or done at all)
Household help is much more on a volunteer or "ask for help"
basis (So far everyone wanted to continue with the routines we
have so there are still predictable "jobs" but these re far more
flexible than they used to be even)
Phone calls and IM are open for whenever they want them
bedtimes are no longer set or firm
More movies
Some of the things we are thrilled about:
Kids are far more gracious to each other (and I already thought
they were pretty good!)
They are jumping up to help me any time I ask. Really. Amazes
me.
There's such a good spirit in the house.
Lots of conversations about the future, about right now, about
what they thought before and how they see things today.
So here's where we're at. Dh is feeling that he doesn't want his
13 yodd on the Internet after midnight. He wonders if he can say:
"You know, I think these little guys really need to be in bed."
I told him as we talked that I believe we are earning the right to
offer our kids our opinions and even at times to suggest things
based on our experiences because they know that we aren't
simply imposing our view of life on them at every turn. Last night
when I suggested my dd get off the computer and we talked
about the Internet and chatting with strangers (again--we've had
this discussion and she doesn't talk to strangers, but my dh
wanted to remind her of our concerns). She was fine with that.
So am I right in assuming that because we are giving them room
to be themselves, to test out how to manage their lives with our
support, does it also hold that when some of the issues parents
do care about (where they drive, who they dte, how young and so
on) come up, we will be able to talk about these things and
come to shred consensus because we've been considerate on
so many other levels?
I also told my dh that if there is a specific place he is
uncomfortable with where we re, we all need to feel the freedom
to express it, to go slowly and to share the way the process if
affecting us as much as how it is affecting them. Does that
sound reasonable to you all too? Any cautions?
Thanks.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/1/03 7:39:43 AM, julie@... writes:
<< Phone calls and IM are open for whenever they want them >>
We tell our kids it's tacky to call others after 10:00 unless you know
they're up AND their parents are awake, or they have a cellphone and TOLD
you to call them, or something similar.
The few times someone has called here and woken us up (intending to get one
of the kids but calling after 11:00 or something I consider too horrible
<g>), either I or the kids tell them not to call so late.
<<So am I right in assuming that because we are giving them room
to be themselves, to test out how to manage their lives with our
support, does it also hold that when some of the issues parents
do care about (where they drive, who they dte, how young and so
on) come up, we will be able to talk about these things and
come to shred consensus because we've been considerate on
so many other levels?>>
I think so.
If she wants to date someone you don't trust, instead of thinking of her and
that boy, think back to any and every situation you know of prior to that
where a parent has just said "NO, you can't go out with him," or worse: "No,
have no contact with him whatsoever."
Those things have not ended well very often.
Even if the child concedes, and even if it is the rare case in which the
child really never sees that person again and cuts off all contact, I think
the cost is the entirety of the relationship between the parent and child.
So the best thing I can think of to do is to voice my concerns clearly,
remind the child that I love him (mine are "hims" so far in such matters) and
suggest outs for in case the situation does move toward my worries.
Marty has a friend I don't trust. I enjoy his company, usually, and he's
pretty bright, and I feel sorry for him, but he's reckless and a little
psycho. Marty understands why I'm concerned, and he's wary.
Kirby and Marty had a female friend who was desperate for male attention.
She was 14 and her dad was awful to her and she had two younger brothers she
was forced to take care of almost by herself (so she tended to abandon and
neglect them to spite her dad). She WANTED a boyfriend, and was hanging out
in a larger group of teens. I told five of those boys all together that she
was likely to need to get pregnant as a means of escape, and that they should
all be EXTRA careful not to be the tool of her escape from her house.
But in neither case did I say "Stay away from that kid."
And in both cases, they came to see my point and distanced themselves NOT
because of what I said, but because of things the other kid said or did.
Had I forbidden, they probably would have become sneaky or lied for the first
time in their lives.
Or if they hadn't done that, they would have resented me for being mean and
unreasonable, and would have idealized that person. As it is, I "got my
way," and they see that they were given the freedom to see if maybe I was
wrong.
<<I also told my dh that if there is a specific place he is
uncomfortable with where we re, we all need to feel the freedom
to express it, to go slowly and to share the way the process if
affecting us as much as how it is affecting them. Does that
sound reasonable to you all too? Any cautions?>>
Sounds WONDERFUL.
Your family has made more changes in a month than most families ever make in
a lifetime.
Just as starting to unschool helps the parents and the children both
understand how natural learning CAN work, which makes more confident
unschooling easier, starting to trust kids with their life decisions will
make it easier to do more of that too.
Sandra
<< Phone calls and IM are open for whenever they want them >>
We tell our kids it's tacky to call others after 10:00 unless you know
they're up AND their parents are awake, or they have a cellphone and TOLD
you to call them, or something similar.
The few times someone has called here and woken us up (intending to get one
of the kids but calling after 11:00 or something I consider too horrible
<g>), either I or the kids tell them not to call so late.
<<So am I right in assuming that because we are giving them room
to be themselves, to test out how to manage their lives with our
support, does it also hold that when some of the issues parents
do care about (where they drive, who they dte, how young and so
on) come up, we will be able to talk about these things and
come to shred consensus because we've been considerate on
so many other levels?>>
I think so.
If she wants to date someone you don't trust, instead of thinking of her and
that boy, think back to any and every situation you know of prior to that
where a parent has just said "NO, you can't go out with him," or worse: "No,
have no contact with him whatsoever."
Those things have not ended well very often.
Even if the child concedes, and even if it is the rare case in which the
child really never sees that person again and cuts off all contact, I think
the cost is the entirety of the relationship between the parent and child.
So the best thing I can think of to do is to voice my concerns clearly,
remind the child that I love him (mine are "hims" so far in such matters) and
suggest outs for in case the situation does move toward my worries.
Marty has a friend I don't trust. I enjoy his company, usually, and he's
pretty bright, and I feel sorry for him, but he's reckless and a little
psycho. Marty understands why I'm concerned, and he's wary.
Kirby and Marty had a female friend who was desperate for male attention.
She was 14 and her dad was awful to her and she had two younger brothers she
was forced to take care of almost by herself (so she tended to abandon and
neglect them to spite her dad). She WANTED a boyfriend, and was hanging out
in a larger group of teens. I told five of those boys all together that she
was likely to need to get pregnant as a means of escape, and that they should
all be EXTRA careful not to be the tool of her escape from her house.
But in neither case did I say "Stay away from that kid."
And in both cases, they came to see my point and distanced themselves NOT
because of what I said, but because of things the other kid said or did.
Had I forbidden, they probably would have become sneaky or lied for the first
time in their lives.
Or if they hadn't done that, they would have resented me for being mean and
unreasonable, and would have idealized that person. As it is, I "got my
way," and they see that they were given the freedom to see if maybe I was
wrong.
<<I also told my dh that if there is a specific place he is
uncomfortable with where we re, we all need to feel the freedom
to express it, to go slowly and to share the way the process if
affecting us as much as how it is affecting them. Does that
sound reasonable to you all too? Any cautions?>>
Sounds WONDERFUL.
Your family has made more changes in a month than most families ever make in
a lifetime.
Just as starting to unschool helps the parents and the children both
understand how natural learning CAN work, which makes more confident
unschooling easier, starting to trust kids with their life decisions will
make it easier to do more of that too.
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>From: SandraDodd@...<<So the best thing I can think of to do is to voice my concerns clearly,
remind the child that I love him (mine are "hims" so far in such matters)
and suggest outs for in case the situation does move toward my worries.>>
Sounds good in theory but I have to say things don't always go so smoothly.
My daughter was seeing someone I didn't care for. This was a second go
around as I gave the kid a second chance to prove me wrong. I wasn't wrong
and this time around was worse. I was worried and fearful of what could
possibly happen. My daughter didn't see any of it and finally, for my own
sanity, I put an end to the relationship. It was a family intervention with
no help on the part of the boyfriends family. And no it didn't go well at
all. She was real pissed for about a week and gradually things got better.
It took awhile but I can honestly say our relationship didn't suffer but for
a brief moment. Our relationship is actually better now than ever. I did
what I had to do and I would do it over again.
Mary B
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In a message dated 2/1/03 2:12:59 PM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< Sounds good in theory but I have to say things don't always go so
smoothly.
My daughter was seeing someone I didn't care for. . . . .I was worried and
fearful of what could
possibly happen. My daughter didn't see any of it and finally, for my own
sanity, I put an end to the relationship. >>
That was a paragraph about you.
YOU didn't care for him and for YOUR own sanity...
Maybe I'm being too picky, and I'm sure you could tell us exactly what your
concerns for your daughter were if you wanted to, but you said of the
"intervention,"
<<And no it didn't go well at all. She was real pissed for about a week and
gradually things got better. >>
She might be "real pissed" forever. Maybe not.
<<It took awhile but I can honestly say our relationship didn't suffer but
for a brief moment.>>
Can you say honestly that you're sure she cut of the relationship with the
boy entirely?
I had friends who pretended exactly what their parents wanted them to pretend
at home but did what their parents did NOT want them to do outside the house,
and used me and various other things/places/people as covers. Because their
parents wouldn't allow them freedoms, they became sneaky and dishonest.
I hope your situation with your daughter isn't like that at all.
But if your story stays in the archives without any comment, I would hate for
someone to say "Yeah! Good! Another unschooler just laid down the law and
ran a boyfriend off, so I think I will do it too."
Sandra
<< Sounds good in theory but I have to say things don't always go so
smoothly.
My daughter was seeing someone I didn't care for. . . . .I was worried and
fearful of what could
possibly happen. My daughter didn't see any of it and finally, for my own
sanity, I put an end to the relationship. >>
That was a paragraph about you.
YOU didn't care for him and for YOUR own sanity...
Maybe I'm being too picky, and I'm sure you could tell us exactly what your
concerns for your daughter were if you wanted to, but you said of the
"intervention,"
<<And no it didn't go well at all. She was real pissed for about a week and
gradually things got better. >>
She might be "real pissed" forever. Maybe not.
<<It took awhile but I can honestly say our relationship didn't suffer but
for a brief moment.>>
Can you say honestly that you're sure she cut of the relationship with the
boy entirely?
I had friends who pretended exactly what their parents wanted them to pretend
at home but did what their parents did NOT want them to do outside the house,
and used me and various other things/places/people as covers. Because their
parents wouldn't allow them freedoms, they became sneaky and dishonest.
I hope your situation with your daughter isn't like that at all.
But if your story stays in the archives without any comment, I would hate for
someone to say "Yeah! Good! Another unschooler just laid down the law and
ran a boyfriend off, so I think I will do it too."
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>From: SandraDodd@...<<She might be "real pissed" forever. Maybe not.>>
No she wasn't and no she isn't now. We have talked. A lot. About that and
other things. She's actually glad now that he's gone and she's without him.
She does not like still the way it went down. Neither do I but I felt like
nothing else would get rid of him. And for everyone's sake hre, I did need
to have him gone. I was scared with him around. He didn't hit her but was
very abusive verbally. He was moody to the point where he was weird. He was
supposed to be on meds that he didn't take. It was a feeling I had. It was
something I heard him tell my daugher. It didn't set right with me and I was
actually afraid for her life and possible my other children. She didn;t want
to stop the relationship. A lot of it was her feeling sorry for him. He
wouldn't stop seeing her and his parents wouldn't help either. I felt like I
was in a corner.
<<Can you say honestly that you're sure she cut of the relationship with the
boy entirely?>>
She saw him once after we said no more. She spoke to him after on the phone
from school. We knew and she knew we knew. She finally ended that herself
after not being under his influence for awhile. She hasn't seen him at all
since that last time. She avoids him actually if she's in the area at all.
<<I hope your situation with your daughter isn't like that at all.
But if your story stays in the archives without any comment, I would hate
for someone to say "Yeah! Good! Another unschooler just laid down the law
and ran a boyfriend off, so I think I will do it too.">>
I actually agree with what you said about voicing your concerns about
friends your children have. Giving them a heads up so to speak. This was far
beyond that. This was a second chance gone bad. My daughter has had quite a
few friends she was seeing that I wasn't crazy about. I never got involved.
This was different and sometimes, every once in a while, saying something
and standing back to watch isn't comfortable enough to let happen. That's
what happened here and I don't advocate at all parents jumping in with what
they like or don't. This was a whole different ball of wax. And in this very
possible extreme case, well worth what we did.
Mary B
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In a message dated 2/2/03 8:35:36 PM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< I was scared with him around. He didn't hit her but was
very abusive verbally. He was moody to the point where he was weird. >>
That's bad.
I'm glad she's relieved.
Sorry to project my other friends on your situation. I realized after I
wrote it that you could be hugely and glowingly and unquestionably right.
<This was a whole different ball of wax. And in this very
possible extreme case, well worth what we did.>>
Thanks for clarifying.
Sandra
<< I was scared with him around. He didn't hit her but was
very abusive verbally. He was moody to the point where he was weird. >>
That's bad.
I'm glad she's relieved.
Sorry to project my other friends on your situation. I realized after I
wrote it that you could be hugely and glowingly and unquestionably right.
<This was a whole different ball of wax. And in this very
possible extreme case, well worth what we did.>>
Thanks for clarifying.
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>From: SandraDodd@...<<Sorry to project my other friends on your situation. I realized after I
wrote it that you could be hugely and glowingly and unquestionably right.>>
I'm actually glad you did. I don't read my posts after I post them and
therfore don't realize after the fact how something sounded. I don't want
anyone to think they should just jump in and stop relationships that they
don't care for between their children. I tried hard for quite a long time to
not do that. I just got to the point where I thought maybe I would be a
parent who lost a child and felt bad for not "seeing" something sooner. So I
took a chance and it ended well. Maybe all the other good parenting I had
done made up for the bad moment. Maybe I was just lucky. Either way, I have
my daugher back.
Mary B
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