Deborah Lewis

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:05:15 EST SandraDodd@... writes:

***Occasionally (like this week, most recently!) I feel really
uncomfortable
with the speed at which people are introduced to the most radical vision
of
living respectfully with their children--***

Yes. It must be like going from darkness to light in an instant and
you're left stunned and blinking there in the glare until you can adjust
your vision.

What I am so uncomfortable with is the starting places are all different.
I sort of tend to assume everyone is starting at the same place and
they're not.

I'm not a smart person. I'm just average in everything, but I *get*
unschooling. I *get* living respectfully with children and if I can get
it it seems anyone can. I don't have the unfailing patience Joyce has
nor the steadfast dedication to helping others that Sandra has. I'm
ashamed that I get frustrated sometimes with new people, because I really
DO respect people who are trying to get this. I really DO admire people
who are trying to make life better for their kids. Maybe I'm just not
good at helping someone else get there.

I don't understand why respecting children isn't simply the natural
starting point for mothers. I know about religious teaching that say
children are born with sin and I know about the long history of parenting
practices and I know what society says about children. I just don't
know why all of that isn't simply washed away the instant a new mother
holds that new baby. THAT's what I don't get. And if this seems harsh
or snarky please believe I don't mean it that way. I'm passionate
about unschooling. I believe it can change the world. I want everyone
to get there.

Maybe because pregnancies before Dylan didn't culminate with a warm,
sweet baby in my arms, or maybe because I was afraid of loosing him or
maybe because I knew he was the only child I would have I cherished him
from the start. I didn't think for a minute that my job as a parent
was to make him obey or to teach him respect. So, like Sandra we
started from a place of really noticing he was a capable person, right
from the start. This is hard, because I seem to get the impression
often that other parents think their kids are a project. Something they
have to build and perfect and finish. The starting place is different.

I want my son to be happy and fulfilled. I live with him the way I
would live with a loved and respected friend or partner and I talk to him
the way I hope others have the kindness to talk to me. I don't assume
his desires are less than mine because he's small I don't assume his
needs are not as important as mine or his problems are not as troubling
as mine because he's a child. I knew he'd need help getting where he
wanted to go, literally and figuratively. I knew he'd need protection
from harm until he could identify things that could hurt him and until he
could protect himself. I didn't have him because I wanted help with
housework, and I didn't assume I was a better judge of what kind of
person he should.

If any newbies have read this far, you can see you are not the only ones
who feel like you're wandering in a strange land. Because when I hear
moms complain their kids won't do anything around the house or just want
to watch TV or are lazy or mean or uncooperative I feel like I'm talking
to someone from another planet. I get super annoyed with folks who
insult Sandra, because she devotes so much time to helping others
understand. Every minute she's here answering questions and clarifying
ideas and giving examples is time spent away from her family and she's
not soliciting funds from anyone. She has the determination to help
others get it that very few people have. She's gone on and on helping
despite having answered questions a million times and despite being
abused and insulted. She's a hero, in my opinion and if any new person
thinks getting unschooling is a difficult task helping people get it is
infinitely more difficult. She made a choice to help others and she
makes it over and over again. But people who come to learn about
unschooling have made a choice too. No one is helpless here, if new
people need more help or clarification then it's their responsibility to
say so. New people don't have the right to blame anyone here if they
don't understand. It's up to the seeker to find understanding. No one
here is putting barriers in the way.

For new people, try treating your children they way you would like to be
treated. If you spilled milk on the floor, would you want someone
yelling at you about it, telling you to be more careful? Wouldn't it be
nicer to have someone say, "I'm sorry, let me help you." ?
What is so difficult about treating children with respect?

Really, newbies are not the only ones dealing with frustrations here.

Deb L

cindyjsowers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
>
> If any newbies have read this far, you can see you are not the
only ones
> who feel like you're wandering in a strange land. Because when I
hear
> moms complain their kids won't do anything around the house or
just want
> to watch TV or are lazy or mean or uncooperative I feel like I'm
talking
> to someone from another planet. I get super annoyed with folks
who
> insult Sandra, because she devotes so much time to helping others
> understand. Every minute she's here answering questions and
clarifying
> ideas and giving examples is time spent away from her family and
she's
> not soliciting funds from anyone. She has the determination to
help
> others get it that very few people have. She's gone on and on
helping
> despite having answered questions a million times and despite being
> abused and insulted. She's a hero, in my opinion and if any new
person
> thinks getting unschooling is a difficult task helping people get
it is
> infinitely more difficult. She made a choice to help others and
she
> makes it over and over again. But people who come to learn about
> unschooling have made a choice too. No one is helpless here, if
new
> people need more help or clarification then it's their
responsibility to
> say so. New people don't have the right to blame anyone here if
they
> don't understand.

I think that that's a very good point. I don't know Sandra, or
anyone on the list personally at all. I am a homebody for the most
part and don't go out to conferences to meet other unschoolers or
anything like that. I have been reading from this list for awhile,
and have interjected a few comments here and there, but I am
basically new to this list. I joined it to get ideas really, and I
have gotten a lot of good ideas just by reading. I don't agree with
every single thing every single person says, but I can take what I
need and don't really feel the need to argue.

I just wanted to say in response to the above, that I think that
people don't "get" that people who are already happily going about
their business of unschooling, and it is working for them, don't
really need to discuss back and forth that much -- that they are
probably just putting in extra time to try to shed some light on the
topic for people who are just trying all this out. It's like if you
are good at something, you can tell other people what you are up to
and maybe they can learn something from you. So, in some ways, it's
a service they have been generous enough to offer to people who are
looking for information and ideas. I don't think people look at it
that way.

Anyway, I think it's very generous of people to offer what they
have. I appreciate it.

Cindy

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:

Awesome post. The whole thing.

I feel so sad sometimes that I left the track I started on when I
had a new baby and was in love. I have tried really hard to live a
life that respects children's emotional needs on par with their
physical ones.

And I believe we've been more successful at it than some. But
we've also bee inundated with Christian parenting strategies
and homeschooling talks. I find myself ambivalent at times abut
what to expect and why.

This radical unschooling philosophy has taken all my thoughts
to an entirely new level and I feel FREE! I told my dh today: the
old sense of being the home regulator and rule enforcer is gone.
Life feels so much easier! And everyone's so much nicer to each
other.

And just to empathize more, we are discussing some of these
ideas on my website www.trapdoorsociety.com and I am feeling
the kinds of frustrations you must feel. Women get pretty feisty
about protecting their rights to make children obey. Geesh. I'm
trying to offer some of the principles to them since we've had
heart-rending discussions about raising teens. Not working. The
fear of giving up parental authority is huge!

It occured to me: when do these mothers ever stop regulating
everything their kids think and do? There are a hundred
justifications for requiring... everything from how to eat and
where, to when to pick up clothes and how to fold them in
drawers.

No wonder we go bonkers in college!

I feel I've had a huge Aha here and am grateful for the patience of
those of you who are trying to offer your insights when it feels like
old hat to you and we sound insane! :)

Oh, and my kids thank you profusely too. :)

Julie B

>
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:05:15 EST SandraDodd@a... writes:
>
> ***Occasionally (like this week, most recently!) I feel really
> uncomfortable
> with the speed at which people are introduced to the most
radical vision
> of
> living respectfully with their children--***
>
> Yes. It must be like going from darkness to light in an instant
and
> you're left stunned and blinking there in the glare until you can
adjust
> your vision.
>
> What I am so uncomfortable with is the starting places are all
different.
> I sort of tend to assume everyone is starting at the same
place and
> they're not.
>
> I'm not a smart person. I'm just average in everything, but I
*get*
> unschooling. I *get* living respectfully with children and if I can
get
> it it seems anyone can. I don't have the unfailing patience
Joyce has
> nor the steadfast dedication to helping others that Sandra has.
I'm
> ashamed that I get frustrated sometimes with new people,
because I really
> DO respect people who are trying to get this. I really DO
admire people
> who are trying to make life better for their kids. Maybe I'm just
not
> good at helping someone else get there.
>
> I don't understand why respecting children isn't simply the
natural
> starting point for mothers. I know about religious teaching that
say
> children are born with sin and I know about the long history of
parenting
> practices and I know what society says about children. I just
don't
> know why all of that isn't simply washed away the instant a new
mother
> holds that new baby. THAT's what I don't get. And if this
seems harsh
> or snarky please believe I don't mean it that way. I'm
passionate
> about unschooling. I believe it can change the world. I want
everyone
> to get there.
>
> Maybe because pregnancies before Dylan didn't culminate
with a warm,
> sweet baby in my arms, or maybe because I was afraid of
loosing him or
> maybe because I knew he was the only child I would have I
cherished him
> from the start. I didn't think for a minute that my job as a
parent
> was to make him obey or to teach him respect. So, like
Sandra we
> started from a place of really noticing he was a capable
person, right
> from the start. This is hard, because I seem to get the
impression
> often that other parents think their kids are a project.
Something they
> have to build and perfect and finish. The starting place is
different.
>
> I want my son to be happy and fulfilled. I live with him the way I
> would live with a loved and respected friend or partner and I
talk to him
> the way I hope others have the kindness to talk to me. I don't
assume
> his desires are less than mine because he's small I don't
assume his
> needs are not as important as mine or his problems are not
as troubling
> as mine because he's a child. I knew he'd need help getting
where he
> wanted to go, literally and figuratively. I knew he'd need
protection
> from harm until he could identify things that could hurt him and
until he
> could protect himself. I didn't have him because I wanted help
with
> housework, and I didn't assume I was a better judge of what
kind of
> person he should.
>
> If any newbies have read this far, you can see you are not the
only ones
> who feel like you're wandering in a strange land. Because
when I hear
> moms complain their kids won't do anything around the house
or just want
> to watch TV or are lazy or mean or uncooperative I feel like I'm
talking
> to someone from another planet. I get super annoyed with
folks who
> insult Sandra, because she devotes so much time to helping
others
> understand. Every minute she's here answering questions
and clarifying
> ideas and giving examples is time spent away from her family
and she's
> not soliciting funds from anyone. She has the determination
to help
> others get it that very few people have. She's gone on and on
helping
> despite having answered questions a million times and
despite being
> abused and insulted. She's a hero, in my opinion and if any
new person
> thinks getting unschooling is a difficult task helping people get
it is
> infinitely more difficult. She made a choice to help others and
she
> makes it over and over again. But people who come to learn
about
> unschooling have made a choice too. No one is helpless
here, if new
> people need more help or clarification then it's their
responsibility to
> say so. New people don't have the right to blame anyone here
if they
> don't understand. It's up to the seeker to find understanding.
No one
> here is putting barriers in the way.
>
> For new people, try treating your children they way you would
like to be
> treated. If you spilled milk on the floor, would you want
someone
> yelling at you about it, telling you to be more careful? Wouldn't
it be
> nicer to have someone say, "I'm sorry, let me help you." ?
> What is so difficult about treating children with respect?
>
> Really, newbies are not the only ones dealing with frustrations
here.
>
> Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/03 2:20:53 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<<
Maybe because pregnancies before Dylan didn't culminate with a warm,
sweet baby in my arms, or maybe because I was afraid of loosing him or
maybe because I knew he was the only child I would have I cherished him
from the start. >>

This is sweet and sad and also strong and wonderful.

I wish I could have traded some of my easy fertility for someone's swimming
ability and maybe a little math. Life's not fair, and I wish we could make
deals like that.

Everything that transfers from one person to another, though, goes by
examples and words and gifts of time or stuff or books or ideas.

Thanks for the kind words, Deb.
Your posts are making a big difference in people's lives. I love your
writing.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/03 3:35:24 PM, julie@... writes:

<< This radical unschooling philosophy has taken all my thoughts
to an entirely new level and I feel FREE! I told my dh today: the
old sense of being the home regulator and rule enforcer is gone.
Life feels so much easier! And everyone's so much nicer to each
other.>>

It IS easy, when it comes to work. It seems easy to me, anyway.
I liked your account.

When I tell people how easy and sweet it is with my kids sometimes, they look
entirely aghast or suspicious or disgusted. Partly they don't want to
believe me. Partly, if it IS easy then they're wasting their own time and
wasting their relationship with their children on something unnecessary.

Something like that was said to me on the New Mexico homeschooling list last
week, but a mom who didn't want me bragging up unschooling as though it were
the only option. (I hadn't been.) The quote is:

"it has been bothering me for a long
time, ever since I first joined here asking questions about how to
get started. I recall feeling more confused then anything else at
times, and sometimes felt *jumped on* for things I felt I needed to
do that others felt was.. well.. unnecessary, etc..."

So do I "feel" that teaching a child to read is unnecessary? Or do I *KNOW*
it to unnecessary?

I didn't argue that point there. It's not an unschooling list.

Do I feel that spanking is unnecessary? Yes. And not only unnecessary, but
harmful.

But if my children's lives are fun and sweet and they go to bed smiling,
people whose children's lives are not fun, and not sweet, who go to bed sad
and frustrated, are likely to be angry with me from the get go.

I don't think this will work with every one. I don't think every parent is
capable of doing it. Does that mean that out of "fairness" none of us
should?

That's a serious question, not just rhetorical. Are we being elitist on
beyond posh private schools to give our kids freedom and peace at home?

Sandra, still rambling

Jon and Rue Kream

"w e are discussing some of these
ideas on my website www.trapdoorsociety.com "

Hi Julie - I visited your site and I think you're doing a good job of
explaining yourself. I also read the 'Discipline Suggestion: The
Practice Academy' thread, and I can see that it could be difficult to
explain your new outlook to some people :0(. ~Rue




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Occasionally (like this week, most recently!) I feel really
uncomfortable
with the speed at which people are introduced to the most radical vision
of
living respectfully with their children--***



I don't get this statement. Are there different visions of living
respectfully with children? I believe it is either living respectfully or
not.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<I don't have the unfailing patience Joyce has
nor the steadfast dedication to helping others that Sandra has.

(snip)

I get super annoyed with folks who
insult Sandra, because she devotes so much time to helping others
understand>>



Here! Here!



Robyn Coburn



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ed hodgins

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deborah Lewis" <ddzimlew@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] New kid freedoms (a long ramble) and
longer still...


>
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:05:15 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> ***Occasionally (like this week, most recently!) I feel really
> uncomfortable
> with the speed at which people are introduced to the most radical vision
> of
> living respectfully with their children--***
>
> Yes. It must be like going from darkness to light in an instant and
> you're left stunned and blinking there in the glare until you can adjust
> your vision.
>
> What I am so uncomfortable with is the starting places are all different.
> I sort of tend to assume everyone is starting at the same place and
> they're not.
>
> I'm not a smart person. I'm just average in everything, but I *get*
> unschooling. I *get* living respectfully with children and if I can get
> it it seems anyone can. I don't have the unfailing patience Joyce has
> nor the steadfast dedication to helping others that Sandra has. I'm
> ashamed that I get frustrated sometimes with new people, because I really
> DO respect people who are trying to get this. I really DO admire people
> who are trying to make life better for their kids. Maybe I'm just not
> good at helping someone else get there.
>
> I don't understand why respecting children isn't simply the natural
> starting point for mothers. I know about religious teaching that say
> children are born with sin and I know about the long history of parenting
> practices and I know what society says about children. I just don't
> know why all of that isn't simply washed away the instant a new mother
> holds that new baby. THAT's what I don't get. And if this seems harsh
> or snarky please believe I don't mean it that way. I'm passionate
> about unschooling. I believe it can change the world. I want everyone
> to get there.
>
> Maybe because pregnancies before Dylan didn't culminate with a warm,
> sweet baby in my arms, or maybe because I was afraid of loosing him or
> maybe because I knew he was the only child I would have I cherished him
> from the start. I didn't think for a minute that my job as a parent
> was to make him obey or to teach him respect. So, like Sandra we
> started from a place of really noticing he was a capable person, right
> from the start. This is hard, because I seem to get the impression
> often that other parents think their kids are a project. Something they
> have to build and perfect and finish. The starting place is different.
>
> I want my son to be happy and fulfilled. I live with him the way I
> would live with a loved and respected friend or partner and I talk to him
> the way I hope others have the kindness to talk to me. I don't assume
> his desires are less than mine because he's small I don't assume his
> needs are not as important as mine or his problems are not as troubling
> as mine because he's a child. I knew he'd need help getting where he
> wanted to go, literally and figuratively. I knew he'd need protection
> from harm until he could identify things that could hurt him and until he
> could protect himself. I didn't have him because I wanted help with
> housework, and I didn't assume I was a better judge of what kind of
> person he should.
>
> If any newbies have read this far, you can see you are not the only ones
> who feel like you're wandering in a strange land. Because when I hear
> moms complain their kids won't do anything around the house or just want
> to watch TV or are lazy or mean or uncooperative I feel like I'm talking
> to someone from another planet. I get super annoyed with folks who
> insult Sandra, because she devotes so much time to helping others
> understand. Every minute she's here answering questions and clarifying
> ideas and giving examples is time spent away from her family and she's
> not soliciting funds from anyone. She has the determination to help
> others get it that very few people have. She's gone on and on helping
> despite having answered questions a million times and despite being
> abused and insulted. She's a hero, in my opinion and if any new person
> thinks getting unschooling is a difficult task helping people get it is
> infinitely more difficult. She made a choice to help others and she
> makes it over and over again. But people who come to learn about
> unschooling have made a choice too. No one is helpless here, if new
> people need more help or clarification then it's their responsibility to
> say so. New people don't have the right to blame anyone here if they
> don't understand. It's up to the seeker to find understanding. No one
> here is putting barriers in the way.
>
> For new people, try treating your children they way you would like to be
> treated. If you spilled milk on the floor, would you want someone
> yelling at you about it, telling you to be more careful? Wouldn't it be
> nicer to have someone say, "I'm sorry, let me help you." ?
> What is so difficult about treating children with respect?
>
> Really, newbies are not the only ones dealing with frustrations here.
>
> Deb L
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> This almost made me cry! I guess it is hard to respect your children when
as child I wasnt respected. I am struggling with this. Lately i find the
more time i spend doing things with them getting right involved with what
there doing. The more I respect them at treat them as equals. It should come
natural and if we raise our chilren with respect they will pass it on to
their children. I fine the more I respect my daughter the more she respects
me. They learn by the example we set.

Fetteroll

on 1/31/03 7:28 PM, genant2@... at genant2@... wrote:

> I don't get this statement. Are there different visions of living
> respectfully with children? I believe it is either living respectfully or
> not.

Depends how you define respect. To people familiar with standard parenting
practices, it means something closer to fair, I think. It means being
reasonable when getting kids to do what you think they need to do. (And it
ticks people off when it's phrased as "getting kids to do what you want"
because that isn't, they think, what they mean at all.) It's often treating
kids as though they have adult needs and understandings as a way of
instilling those adult needs and understandings.

Like being calm and firm in insisting a child must stick with soccer until
the end of the season because there was a long discussion about
responsibility before the child signed up.

Like setting a curfew with clear reasonable-feeling consequences for
breaking it and then enforcing them calmly and firmly.

Joyce

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 1/31/03 7:28 PM, genant2@a... at genant2@a... wrote:
>
> > I don't get this statement. Are there different visions of living
> > respectfully with children? I believe it is either living
respectfully or
> > not.
>
> Depends how you define respect. To people familiar with
standard parenting
> practices, it means something closer to fair, I think. It means
being
> reasonable when getting kids to do what you think they need to
do. (And it
> ticks people off when it's phrased as "getting kids to do what
you want"
> because that isn't, they think, what they mean at all.)

Oh this is so true!!! (It was me who used the yard work/.husband
example, btw). Last night my husband and I tried to figure out if
ther is anything we feel we can say to our kids about their
choices and how they spend their time.

I realized that in the old paradigm, parents are constantly
justifying their decisions this way:

I want her to learn to value her clothes so I won't let her leave
them in a heap on the floor. If she doesn't pick them up, then...
Fill in the blank

Or

If I can't trust my kids to obey in the little things, how will I be able
to trus tthem in the big ones like driving a car?

But the expectations and regulations keep piling up on each
other. And by the time these kids are teens (when almost all
these parents said their kids would have *more* freedom, not
less), they feel paralyzed to actually give them that freedom.

it occured to me last night that it's because they haven't got
evidence for themselves that their kids *can* function reliably,
with good sense and integrity for them *without* parental
intervention, coercion or supervision.


It's often treating
> kids as though they have adult needs and understandings as
a way of
> instilling those adult needs and understandings.

Yes. I agree with this.

>
> Like being calm and firm in insisting a child must stick with
soccer until
> the end of the season because there was a long discussion
about
> responsibility before the child signed up.
>
> Like setting a curfew with clear reasonable-feeling
consequences for
> breaking it and then enforcing them calmly and firmly.

Well put.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/03 7:40:55 PM, ed.hodgins@... writes:

<< This almost made me cry! I guess it is hard to respect your children when
as child I wasnt respected. I am struggling with this. Lately i find the
more time i spend doing things with them getting right involved with what
there doing. The more I respect them at treat them as equals. It should come
natural and if we raise our chilren with respect they will pass it on to
their children. I fine the more I respect my daughter the more she respects
me. They learn by the example we set.>>

I'm thinking some people might have missed this, since it was posted at the
bottom of a fully quoted post, footers and all. ed.hodgins, please delete
the post you're responding to (or most of it) or at least put your comment up
top, because I'm afraid people will scroll down, see the yahoogroups "closing
comment" and not find your own writing.

As to treating our children better than we were treated, it can be really
healing.

If you see it as healing your own inner child (much was written of that
fifteen years ago, and you can probably find it on the internet, under
recovery from dysfunction or similar topics, using www.google.com) it might
be easier. It changed my life profoundly when I was involved in Adult
Children of Alcoholics meetings during the pregnancies and births of my first
two children.

When I made a decision about what to do with Kirby I thought "What do I wish
my mom had done?" And as I did that thing--whether pick him up, or talk
nicely to him, or swing him longer than I had planned to, or play with him on
the floor, whatever it was--I thought of how much nicer it would have been
for me, and how much nicer for my mom and our relationship if she had found
some way to be more patient with me, and more generous with energy and
attention.

So while I was becoming the mom I wished I had had, Kirby was getting a
better mom than he would have had otherwise.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/03 9:27:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> As to treating our children better than we were treated, it can be really
> healing.
>
>

Oh yes....it can be so healing
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barb Eaton

This is what I'm trying to do with my boys. The only thing is is what do
you do when they don't want to talk and share with you? I've been trying my
best to build our relationship up. My oldest is just not a talker. At least
not to me. It makes me sad and I've told him that. I hope he comes around
someday. When I suggest to do something together he's just not interested.
I've done my best not to push or pressure. I really feel I've been relaxed
in my approach. Any suggestions to help it along?


Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill




on 2/1/03 9:25 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> "What do I wish
> my mom had done?" And as I did that thing--whether pick him up, or talk
> nicely to him, or swing him longer than I had planned to, or play with him on
> the floor, whatever it was--I thought of how much nicer it would have been
> for me, and how much nicer for my mom and our relationship if she had found
> some way to be more patient with me, and more generous with energy and
> attention.
>
> So while I was becoming the mom I wished I had had, Kirby was getting a
> better mom than he would have had otherwise.
>
> Sandra

Heidi <[email protected]>

Hi Julie!

>And I believe we've been more successful at it than some. But
> we've also bee inundated with Christian parenting strategies
> and homeschooling talks. I find myself ambivalent at times abut
> what to expect and why.

Okay, I've been wracking my brains and looking into the Bible, and
comparing what I've read here, with things I've read elsewhere. "Is
this unschooling thing Biblical?" I asked myself. The Bible has a lot
to say about training children, and the rod, and fatherly oversight
of their children.
I've read Michael and Debi Pearl's writings, and agree with some, and
disagree with some. In fact, would you be surprised, you unschoolers,
to read Michael Pearl's advice about math and kids? He says "Don't
make them sit down and do math problems. Bring them into contact with
math in their lives, and they'll pick up what they need to know about
math." That's a paraphrase, but it's a paraphrase of Michael Pearl.
When I read, here on this board, about kids picking up math via
living, I am reminded of Pearls, more than any other author I've read.

Before you jump my case, let me say, much of the Pearls' advice about
the rod is one area where I do differ with them. I don't want to talk
about spanking.

As I have researched and thought about it, yes training is something
mentioned in the Bible. Parental training of children. But you know
what it says "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he
is old, he will not depart from it." Well, how many kids,
rigidly "trained" in "Christianity" have grown up to be solid
Christians? Um, I know more who have abandoned the faith, than have
stayed with the faith. What if there's a big-time misuse of
these "training" passages? What if "in the way in which he should go"
has to do with knowing your kids well enough to see which direction
they are heading, and then guiding them in that way? And in a
Christian life, letting God saturate that way? What if Christian
parents developed and maintained fellowship with their kids (another
Pearlism) and lived with them together in joy, rather than making
them always tow the line without a deviation? and the ensuing
frustration and anger at the kids when they DIDN'T tow the line!

I know that much of evangelicalism is more rigid, but my opinion is
that much of evangelicalism is NOT Biblical living. There's a lot of
stuff out there, coming from Christian leadership, which isn't
Biblical parenting. Believe it or not, the writings of some
conservative Christian leaders are closer to unschooling than to the
current trends, and I've read them. Closer to this "in the way in
which they should go," this, "know them and see where their talents
and interests lie, and let them go in that direction."

> This radical unschooling philosophy has taken all my thoughts
> to an entirely new level and I feel FREE! I told my dh today: the
> old sense of being the home regulator and rule enforcer is gone.
> Life feels so much easier! And everyone's so much nicer to each
> other.

I am just exactly at this point, too, Julie. And my husband, who has
an innate rigidity, who had a hard time accepting that you can put
Ranch salad dressing on potatoes and broccoli...I've been watching
him just open up with the kids MAJORLY these past couple of weeks.
Mr. "No Computer Today At All, You've Had Enough" actually stayed up
last night playing computer games with Robby until the wee hours of
the morning. And just day before yesterday, when someone (Julie B?)
mentioned her hubby and son playing computer all night, I gave a
little *snork* and said "That's not going to happen around here" L my
non-playful husband, playing. wow.

Everything about our home feels easier and more joyful. Where
frustration over "those disobedient, mischievous kids" was, there is
now playfulness, as we parents join them in THEIR games and THEIR
explorations. It's very cool. I'm liking it a LOT.

peace, Heidi

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/03 9:26:00 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< What if there's a big-time misuse of
these "training" passages? >>

I have trained morning glories and pea plants to grow up on a fence.
Hitting them doesn't help. <g>

Only gently putting the end of the vine near something it can wrap itself
around helps.

<<What if "in the way in which he should go"
has to do with knowing your kids well enough to see which direction
they are heading, and then guiding them in that way? >>

Kinda like that.

Sandra

Peggy

From: "ed hodgins" <ed.hodgins@...>

>>This almost made me cry! I guess it is hard to respect your children when
>
> as child I wasnt respected. I am struggling with this. Lately i find the
> more time i spend doing things with them getting right involved with what
> there doing. The more I respect them at treat them as equals. It should come
> natural and if we raise our chilren with respect they will pass it on to
> their children. I fine the more I respect my daughter the more she respects
> me. They learn by the example we set.

Thank you for writing this, it is so true. It sure is hard to find the
strength to give our children the respect that we weren't given as
children. And it is even harder, as a parent, to admit we might not
have given our own children the respect they needed and that their
actions might have something to do with that lack of respect.

It is much easier to blame someone else, anything else, even a email
list and play all kinds of games to distract oneself from that reality.
It is however, a colossal waste of one's own time and everyone else
reading that denial. So, to those that would blame unschooling rather
than take responsibility for their own actions, why? No one here said
this is the easy way to go. There are places all over the net to hang
out where the parent's feelings are ALWAYS protected and no one would
even suggest that a parent had any responsibility for a lack of
sensitivity or echoing respect in their children. Why not hang out in an
easy place like that instead of endlessly bitching and moaning about
this place and sucking up *any* attention and never mind that it's
negative. Wait, I answered my own question. ;)

Peggy, feeling cranky this morning.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/03 5:31:33 PM, genant2@... writes:

<< Occasionally (like this week, most recently!) I feel really
uncomfortable with the speed at which people are introduced to the most
radical vision
of living respectfully with their children--***

<<I don't get this statement. Are there different visions of living
respectfully with children? I believe it is either living respectfully or
not. >>

I'm just about to catch up with the e-mail I was so behind on. Sorry to be
late. This one was directly to me, and although I think Joyce or others have
answered (I was reading in swirly-fashion, some new and some old every day),
here's my own attempt to defend my statement.

-=-I don't get this statement. Are there different visions of living
respectfully with children? -=-

My mom used to tell me she spanked me because she loved me.

If someone "respects a child's privacy" to the point of not noticing they
have ants in their bedroom and socks behind the toilet which COULD be washed,
is that respect, really?

Words ALWAYS have multiple shadings and meanings. And when philosophy and
behavior become factors, a word which is about an attitude and a mindset is
absolutely going to be about as broad as the world.

Does "respect for the environment" mean never stepping on grass? Or never
building a sidewalk to avoid stepping on grass?

Often when someone says "I respect your opinion," they really mean "I
acknowledge that you have the right to an opinion and I'm glad you're brave
enough to have expressed your opinion." That's long to say and involves a
lot of thought, though, so they say "I respect your opinion," even when they
think the opinion is proof of idiocy and dumb-assedness.

If someone who believes unsaved souls will burn unquenched for eternity says
"I respect my child's choices" it will mean something entirely different, and
COMPLETELY different, than if the same words are thought, uttered or written
by someone who is an atheist or who believes in reincarnation. If I believed
in hell and though Jesus was coming back 'might be today,' my "respect" for
my child could not include being lax about reminding him to accept Jesus as
his Savior. It would be the utmost in neglectful DISrespect for me to say
"Yeah, whatever about you. *I*'m going to heaven."


So with unschooling, there is this starting place about natural learning.
And with that starting place, that people can learn from whatever interests
them, in ways that are interesting and workable for them, then we begin to
see that we need to respect our children's interests and styles of learning
and being.

From that little grain of a start, understanding that one loves Lego and
silence while another loves books and soft cushions and the third loves loud
music and roller blades, we wonder maybe whether it's okay if one doesn't
like vegetarian food, or one wants to feng-shui-ify the rec room. And from
there it just all unravels into a whole new world of respect for each child
as the full human he has always been, instead of the kid we sometimes imagine
we built and own.

It's not easy to describe or discuss. If it were easy, we'd have nothing
much to discuss here.

If anyone wants more attempt at explanation, say so. Ask other questions.
Or just let it soak in a year. It's okay if you think "I respect your
opinion" even if you think more deeply "What idiocy and dumb-assedness."

Sandra