[email protected]

I was telling Holly about how some families have jumped too far too fast into
freedoms about bedtimes and food choices and tv, and when it didn't work out
right away they were grumpy at the unschoolers who had advised them. I told
her we needed to figure out how to describe some intermediate steps.

She said:

[start Holly]

Well like for bedtimes, if the kids used to go to bed at 9:00, the parents
should just let 9:00 go by and see what the kids say. They might say "Come
tuck me in," or they might say "Do you know what time it is?" Or they might
say "SUCKA FISH, I'm awake and you're not."

[end Holly]

I believe by that she meant "one step at a time" or something to that effect.
<g>

Sandra

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> She said:
>
> [start Holly]
>
> Well like for bedtimes, if the kids used to go to bed at 9:00, the
parents
> should just let 9:00 go by and see what the kids say. They
might say "Come
> tuck me in," or they might say "Do you know what time it is?" Or
they might
> say "SUCKA FISH, I'm awake and you're not."
>
> [end Holly]

ROFLOL!

We have not lifted bedtimes, but have taken the first step just as
Holly suggested. We have just let bedtimes go by. We also have
had TV shows on past their bedtimes and have said little or
nothing about it.

One funny thing that has changed. My dh asks me stuff like:
"Shouldn't the younger ones be in bed? or do you think this is
okay?"

Last night I said, "Well, 10:30 is pretty late for Jacob, so maybe
we can let him know it's time for bed."

Dh said, "Okay, but I am going to play him StarCraft on the
computer first." (Jon gets home really late on Wed after
teaching.) I said fine.

By 1:00 in the morning, they were still going!!!! I finally put MY foot
down. Jacob was bleary-eyed and begging for bed, but Jon still
had several stations to annihilate. <bwg>

Anyway, I think bedtimes ar definitely on their way out. Especially
if the lack of bedtimes continues to foster the "killer" spirit in their
dad! <beg>

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 5:19:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> I was telling Holly about how some families have jumped too far too fast
> into
> freedoms about bedtimes and food choices and tv, and when it didn't work
> out
> right away they were grumpy at the unschoolers who had advised them. I
> told
> her we needed to figure out how to describe some intermediate steps.
>

I am sorry if I ever gave the impression that I was "grumpy" or angry or
upset at any unschooler for taking thier advice and it didnt work like a
charm. I have seen ( myself included) folks frustrated, confused, and
basically "ignorant" of how to proceed. I have also seen ( myself included)
much much progress and and attitude changing and pov alterations. The
advice that unschoolers give does not include these intermediate steps. Its
just says DO THIS or DONT DO THAT. I posted something about this vague
advice on HEM-unschooling.. ( going to find it.. ...

OK.. I found it. I will cut and paste it here.. sorry folks who have already
read it..)

___
I understand exactly what you are asking, and I am still struggling with
understanding the concept as well. I dont know your situation, but for me,
homeschooling is brand new. The ideals of unschooling are very VERY
"foriegn" to me ( PLEASE God dont let anyone rip me apart for my
admission..) I am very eager to learn all I can, but I think that its much
more difficult for families to "convert" to a completely new way of thinking,

parenting and relating to each other. For families that have always
subscribed to attachement parenting and unschooling, there is ( was) no
transition period. It wasn't something they had to learn, it has always been
thier way of life. Sometimes I get the feeling like .. OK.. lets say I have
never driven a car. I WANT to drive a car. I think cars are great.. I am
ready to learn how to drive a car and I want to drive it well. A person who
has been driving since they were 14 hands me keys and a car manual and says..

OK.. get in, turn it on, and start driving. I would of course ask
questions, I would be unclear on every aspect of operating a car and
driving. When I asked questions or made comments, the veteran driver would
act all irriated, insult me, be sarcastic, basically treat me like an idiot
because I dont know how to drive a car. If I asked , how do I parallel
park? They might reply, park alongside the road where the lines indicate.
??!?!?!?!?!? That tells me nothing. Questions that "new" unschoolers have ,
especially, "converts".. often don't apply to veteran unschoolers and they
may answer them with answers like. "that never happens to me" Or, "I dont
see that as a problem in my family" Or, " Ive never done it any other way"
It has to be difficult to respond to questions and situations that one has
never dealt with.. BUT, I think sometimes we all have to use a little empathy

and try to see the other parties point of view.
___________

Anyway.. someone else asked a while back about the "framework" that we need
to replace the old stuff with. That framework takes a long time, and a lot
of learning and understanding to get in place. I really think that the
frustrations that newbies have come from the IN YOUR FACE attitudes that they
encounter when they first "confess thier sins" of not radically unschooling.
Its like folks say.. STOP DOING THAT! ITS WRONG.. YOUR DAMAGING YOUR KID..
lots of times this advice is offered in a condescending or annoyed tone.
So, what do we do.. OMG... we better STOP.. CHANGE .. DO IT THIS WAY.... Then
we encounter problems because the framework wasnt in place.. We DID take
giant steps and not baby steps because that is the attitude with which the
advice was given. Its even been said, folks arent here to babyify newbies.
They are not here to support us. They are not here to sugar coat things and
spoon feed us. They are here to give us the low down, nothing but the truth,
take this pill and swallow it REAL advice on REAL unschooling. And, hey,
thats fine.. Ive said before, I dont need to be coddled. But when the hard
hitting advice doesnt just BAMO-PRESTO work like a charm, its not fair for
the "veterans" to THEN tell us. OH. sorry, we left out the transitioning
stuff.. the framework, the small steps... Herein lies the failures and
frustrations of the struggling new unschooler.

Teresa





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<I think that its much more difficult for families to "convert" to a
completely new way of thinking, parenting and relating to each other.
For families that have always subscribed to attachement parenting and
unschooling, there is ( was) no transition period. It wasn't something
they had to learn>>



Since Jayn is just over three, we have always planned on homeschooling,
and I was reading Holt before she was born, I guess I would be one of
the "always subscribed" group, brief as this period is. However I still
get really useful jolts to my thinking from this forum.



Someone recently posted about parents deschooling from all the 12 (or
however many) years of their own education process, as well as their
children needing to. That made me think. Then this morning one of my
husband's friends told him that "Jayn was a little young for a three
year old. Was I still nursing?" Yes. "That will do it." The occasion had
been a very loud and boisterous birthday party for a five year old , and
all her school friends. And Jayn is a reserved and cautious person in a
new situation.



My initial reaction was to feel defensive, before I realized that all of
this comparative thinking is SCHOOL THINKING, looking at Jayn relative
to some average or norm. I realized that I was defensive because for a
moment I was buying into the school thinking - for a moment.



In "In My Wildest Dreams" by Gail Blanke, a workshop leader is talking
about racism - that in the United States it is like rain, if you go
outside you are going to get wet. School language and thinking is like
that too, and we have to be vigilant about our umbrellas.



Robyn Coburn



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

If anyone is looking for more of a support list for unschoolers that will
hold your hand as you *get it*, you might want to try out the unschooling
list. Check out the FAQ and see if it is for you.

<http://user.mc.net/~kwentz/ULfaq.html>
http://user.mc.net/~kwentz/ULfaq.html

Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/

"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], grlynbl@a...
wrote:

Gutsy post. Thank you! I think you are right that some of us who
are new are just trying to figure the whole durned thing out. We
aren't trying to be belligerent or to challenge the philosophy. (I'm
realizing now, for instance, that some of my language was
inflammatory and I didn't even know it!) And perhaps some
women have come to debate whether unschooling is even viable
or right.

But most of us are just tryin' to learn. So thanks for taking a risk
and articulating it. :)

Julie B
>
> I am sorry if I ever gave the impression that I was "grumpy" or
angry or
> upset at any unschooler for taking thier advice and it didnt work
like a
> charm. I have seen ( myself included) folks frustrated,
confused, and
> basically "ignorant" of how to proceed. I have also seen (
myself included)
> much much progress and and attitude changing and pov
alterations. The
> advice that unschoolers give does not include these
intermediate steps. Its
> just says DO THIS or DONT DO THAT. I posted something
about this vague
> advice on HEM-unschooling.. ( going to find it.. ...
>
> OK.. I found it. I will cut and paste it here.. sorry folks who have
already
> read it..)
>
> ___
> I understand exactly what you are asking, and I am still
struggling with
> understanding the concept as well. I dont know your situation,
but for me,
> homeschooling is brand new. The ideals of unschooling are
very VERY
> "foriegn" to me ( PLEASE God dont let anyone rip me apart for
my
> admission..) I am very eager to learn all I can, but I think that its
much
> more difficult for families to "convert" to a completely new way
of thinking,
>
> parenting and relating to each other. For families that have
always
> subscribed to attachement parenting and unschooling, there is
( was) no
> transition period. It wasn't something they had to learn, it has
always been
> thier way of life. Sometimes I get the feeling like .. OK.. lets say
I have
> never driven a car. I WANT to drive a car. I think cars are great.. I
am
> ready to learn how to drive a car and I want to drive it well. A
person who
> has been driving since they were 14 hands me keys and a car
manual and says..
>
> OK.. get in, turn it on, and start driving. I would of course ask
> questions, I would be unclear on every aspect of operating a
car and
> driving. When I asked questions or made comments, the
veteran driver would
> act all irriated, insult me, be sarcastic, basically treat me like
an idiot
> because I dont know how to drive a car. If I asked , how do I
parallel
> park? They might reply, park alongside the road where the
lines indicate.
> ??!?!?!?!?!? That tells me nothing. Questions that "new"
unschoolers have ,
> especially, "converts".. often don't apply to veteran unschoolers
and they
> may answer them with answers like. "that never happens to
me" Or, "I dont
> see that as a problem in my family" Or, " Ive never done it any
other way"
> It has to be difficult to respond to questions and situations that
one has
> never dealt with.. BUT, I think sometimes we all have to use a
little empathy
>
> and try to see the other parties point of view.
> ___________
>
> Anyway.. someone else asked a while back about the
"framework" that we need
> to replace the old stuff with. That framework takes a long time,
and a lot
> of learning and understanding to get in place. I really think
that the
> frustrations that newbies have come from the IN YOUR FACE
attitudes that they
> encounter when they first "confess thier sins" of not radically
unschooling.
> Its like folks say.. STOP DOING THAT! ITS WRONG.. YOUR
DAMAGING YOUR KID..
> lots of times this advice is offered in a condescending or
annoyed tone.
> So, what do we do.. OMG... we better STOP.. CHANGE .. DO IT
THIS WAY.... Then
> we encounter problems because the framework wasnt in
place.. We DID take
> giant steps and not baby steps because that is the attitude with
which the
> advice was given. Its even been said, folks arent here to
babyify newbies.
> They are not here to support us. They are not here to sugar
coat things and
> spoon feed us. They are here to give us the low down, nothing
but the truth,
> take this pill and swallow it REAL advice on REAL
unschooling. And, hey,
> thats fine.. Ive said before, I dont need to be coddled. But
when the hard
> hitting advice doesnt just BAMO-PRESTO work like a charm,
its not fair for
> the "veterans" to THEN tell us. OH. sorry, we left out the
transitioning
> stuff.. the framework, the small steps... Herein lies the failures
and
> frustrations of the struggling new unschooler.
>
> Teresa
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

I like the idea of intermediate steps.

Thats really how it has been happening with us. I'm still not sure I'd call myself a radical (yet) but I'm definitely moving in that direction.

The first thing I gave up on was bedtime, that was years ago.

The second thing I gave up on was food control...who eats what and when.

The third thing I gave up on was the time we got up in the mornings.

About the same time, I gave up on everything academic except reading, writing, and rithmetic.

Now, I've pretty much given up everything, but still worry about arithmetic.

But then I remind myself that they have learned so much on their own already, really....what is to stop them from picking up fractions when they actually have to use them? Isn't that how they've learned EVERYTHING else? Even when they WERE in school?????

I'm *starting* to get the hang of "strewing" but dreaming again, and letting my kids dream and committing myself to following our dreams as much as we are able.

And when I commit myself to following dreams, I'm less worried about things like Arithmetic because our dreams are so much RICHER than just plain old arithmetic. Really, why would I trade our wonderful dreams for arithmetic?

We watched a movie tonight about a Middle School Dance Team and what they did to realize their dreams and the dance teacher's regret in giving up on herself too soon. It made me thing NOW is the time that my kids have to follow their dreams, in spite of the fact that they are so young. NOW is the time to cultivate dreaming and planning and loving every moment of life.

And yes...we are in the midst of achievement testing. (Don't shoot me LOL). I agree with Sandra, they really are NOT a good idea, even when they are mandated (they are here). But I'm keeping it all in perspective by counterbalancing it with lots and lots of dreaming and planning and thinking of ALL the grand possibilities.

Kristen, whose new Invisaligh aligners are DRIVING HER NUTS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 8:38:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
unschooling@... writes:

> If anyone is looking for more of a support list for unschoolers that will
> hold your hand as you *get it*, you might want to try out the unschooling
> list. Check out the FAQ and see if it is for you.
>

unschooling@yahoogroups? Im on that list too.. ( and several others) Its is
a good list.. very helpful and friendly folks. Its not as active as this one
though.. its moderated and that tends to slow down the flow of discussion.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 8:04:48 PM, julie@... writes:

<< But
when the hard
> hitting advice doesnt just BAMO-PRESTO work like a charm,
its not fair for
> the "veterans" to THEN tell us. OH. sorry, we left out the
transitioning
> stuff.. the framework, the small steps... Herein lies the failures
and
> frustrations of the struggling new unschooler. >>

If you could tell us exactly what help you need, you wouldn't need us.

What we ("we" being ten or a dozen people I'm thinking of who are regular
posters and have been for some time--not a clique, not a club, just "the
regulars") try to convey is WHY we do what we do. The what is secondary.

But some people (and several lately, seems suddenly several) jump to the what
without understanding the why.

The why hasn't been kept secret, I don't think.

For me personally, if I don't first understand why, I'm changing NOTHING.
I'm doing nothing. Not vaccinations, circumcision/not circumcision, not
nursing, not ANYTHING until people have told me what they know about why and
where I can look for more information. But *I* do the looking. I don't
subscribe to one single person or group and say "I'll just do what you say to
do, you don't have to tell me why."

When I joined La Leche League, I also read other people's breastfeeding
stuff. I read history of breastfeeding and learned lots of surprising stuff
about the preponderance of wetnurses in the 16 and 1700's. It was rare for
women of rank to nurse their own babies. And THAT is where the formula
feeding glory comes from. Cultural tradition that breastfeeding is something
that poor women are paid to do for a while, while they neglect their own
child in favor of the other child's neebe the end-all to anyone's problems,
and we can't fairly be blamed if someone is having a rough time incorporating
this into their personal lives.

These incidents help me explain things more clearly the next time, but that's
the question I've been asking here in the forum and that I asked of Holly.
How can we help people get from point A to point B?

I didn't expect to be jumped for sharing what Holly said. I thought it was
good, in an eleven year old kind of way.

Sandra

Angela

This one is not a yahoo group. The information for subbing is at the FAQ
address I gave.
Angela

unschooling@yahoogroups? Teresa



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 1/30/03 6:48 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> But when the hard
> hitting advice doesnt just BAMO-PRESTO work like a charm, its not fair for
> the "veterans" to THEN tell us. OH. sorry, we left out the transitioning
> stuff.. the framework, the small steps... Herein lies the failures and
> frustrations of the struggling new unschooler.

I've been on message boards and lists for 8 years trying to get unschooling
and conscious parenting ideas across. I've seen how people describe it
evolve over that time. It's been slow but it is evolving.

Part of the reason it's so slow is that the people giving advice don't get a
lot of feedback on how their words are being interpretted. There's a number
of reasons for that. Most people don't want to hold up what they're doing
for pubic examination. (We could fruitlessly discuss why they don't want to
do it here, but honestly it happens everywhere. People just don't like to
feel like fools in public.) They don't want others to realize they don't get
it so they convince themselves that they do understand or that they will
understand if they think about it or wait a while and read some more. Or
they *think* they understand. (That's probably the biggie.)

Occasionaly a really brave person -- just as you did -- will come back and
tell us what they tried and what happened and that gives some feedback on
how the words are being interpretted and people can try to figure out how to
explain better.

Describing it *is* getting better. But it's far from being perfect.

Another problem is that conscious parenting (and to some extent unschooling)
if it were described to those who already understand, wouldn't sound much
different than what people using standard parenting practices do. Conscious
parenting is basically recognizing that kids don't have the skills that
adults do, so we help them live life. (Which would include, without saying
it, helping them acquire the skills they need). It's not that much different
than an authoritarian, spanking parent might say. Or a school at homer. But
obviously in practice it's poles apart!

If conscious parenting and unschooling were rule based, we could easily say
"Kids need help with this, this and this and you can drop helping them with
that, that and that." But it isn't rule based. It's based on the philosophy
of listening to what you're kids are saying with their words and behavior
and helping them get what they want out of life. And that's a really hard
idea to convey accurately. Especially since most parents are certain they do
that already. And trying to get them to see how disrespectful standard
parenting practices are without them feeling that they as people are
disrespectful is a challenging task. ("What do you mean I'm not respectful
of my kids!?") It's as hard as getting across the concept to a child that
just because I don't like what you're doing doesn't mean I don't like you.
It's a challenge to discuss the actions without the person thinking their
character is being discussed.

I'm really grateful to the people who *can* discuss their actions without
taking it personally. I'd say it's one of the major things that makes the
unschooling discussions most helpful to those just starting out. It's what
helps make the discussions more than a book of advice because people can see
the transitions in someone's thinking going on right in front of them. They
can see the wrong turns in thinking someone made and why those seemed like
sensible turns based on their incomplete understanding. (Ren's journey, as I
recall, was particularly helpful :-) It's still there on the message boards
at Unschooling.com)

And another problem is that there are a number of changes in thinking people
need to make in order to understand. Most people can only focus on making
one change at a time. But if they only make one change, then the words mean
something different than what the advice giver intends. An example is that
if someone is working on giving up control, then "no bedtimes" will get
translated into "let the kids stay up as late as they want."

I could tell Sandra in a conversation that I'm helping Kathryn figure out
math and she'd understand what I mean. But if I say that to someone who
thinks kids need taught math, they won't interpret the words the same at
all. They're going to translate it as I sit her down and teach her math.
They're going to try to put what I say into a context they already
understand.

And that translating of words into already understood contexts is the
essence of the problem. No one has the unschooling/conscious parenting
contexts to translate the words into. We have to help them create new
contexts so the words mean what we intend them to mean.

There's a really good book about the process of thinking. It's called The
Society of Mind (by Marvin Minsky I think). It's about how we build up these
little piece of understanding to understand larger things. I think one of
the examples he used was how we figure out how a fast food restaurant
operates if we've had experience with sit down restaurants and other things.
It's built up of mostly of things that we already understand that had just
never been put together like that. Or that are the same in essence but
slightly different in practice. And some totally new things. Like paying for
things at the cash register, and seeing the connection between ordering off
a menu on a wall and ordering off a menu in our hands. That wasn't his
example exactly, but there was something similar.

And that's what we're trying to provide for people. We're trying to
deconstruct what they understand and build a new model from totally
different pieces. People already possess most of the pieces but they hadn't
been used that way before. But during the process of building a new model,
people will insist on using the old models and trying to understand from the
old models. For example, most people can't help translating unschooling into
neglect because that's the model they already have that most closely
resembles what they're hearing described.

So how do you describe something that needs a point of view shift to
understand? Most people start with trying to help someone shift their point
of view. *That's* the transition that most people are trying to help others
make. They're trying to help them understand what the principles are and why
they work so that someone can make their own decisions. It's the difference
in thinking between stopping at a stop sign because it says stop, and
stopping because the principle behind where stop signs are placed is to
indicate intersections where there's a good chance you're going to get hit
by cross traffic if you don't stop and look.

That's why I use a lot of "what if your husband did that to you?" examples.
That gets the different point of view part across but it can't give the
whole unschooling/conscious parenting picture. It implies hands off
parenting. Honestly seeing what the world looks like through the eyes of
someone with entirely different needs is an *important* aspect to grasp, but
if that's the *only* aspect they grasp then they're going to get a false
picture of what people are trying to say.

Until we figure out some good ways of getting the concepts across -- and
it's not going to happen any time soon -- it's helpful to accept that lots
of stuff is going to get mistranslated. It's like unschoolers are speaking a
foreign language. The problem is the language sounds exactly like English so
it seems like we're communicating. But the two languages have different
definitions for words that sound and look the same.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 11:48:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> I didn't expect to be jumped for sharing what Holly said. I thought it was
> good, in an eleven year old kind of way.
>
> Sandra
>

But, Sandra, I am NOT jumping you. This continues to be misconstrued. I
thought Holly's advice was sweet and right on target. Why is it when I try
to convey my thoughts, questions, concerns, its percieved as grumpy or angry?
I was just trying to articulate where some of the frustrations are coming
from. I dont think this is a "sudden" thing around here. I think that what
has happened is by coincidence, a few ladies have stuck around and had the
courage to continue to explore unschooling and ask questions. Usually
it's one lone soul who seems to struggle with no empathy from anyone. Most
folks just leave out of intimidation and lick thier wounds. There is
strength in numbers. If a couple of folks speak out.. others will join in
and say.."me too" because they felt alone and out numbered. Its not an
"us" "them" type of situation. We are all here for the same reasons.. Some
of us are just much lower on the ladder.. the continum.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/03 12:46:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
unschooling@... writes:

> This one is not a yahoo group. The information for subbing is at the FAQ
> address I gave.
> Angela
>

Thanks.. I must have overlooked it. Although, Im not sure if "hand holding"
is what I need.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 1/30/03 11:46 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> The why hasn't been kept secret, I don't think.

I think the problem is that the why makes no sense from the point of view
people start in. It's words that go in and don't have anything to connect to
so it's like it's not even said. No matter how often people say you need to
change your perspective, it's just noise until someone *understands* that
they need to change their perspective.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/31/03 8:27 AM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> Usually
> it's one lone soul who seems to struggle with no empathy from anyone.

I think more often what happens is that people get defensive. And when
people get defensive that defensiveness says "I don't like your advice. I
want something that sounds right to my way of thinking."

I'm not saying people are wrong to be defensive. It's natural. I'm a
defensive person. But *if* someone is seeking to understand something
totally new and radical, being defensive is like shooting themselves in the
foot. They're saying "I want to change but I don't want to change the way
you say I need to."

It's not a lack of empathy, though I *do* understand how it gets read like
that. If people are spending hours helping someone and that person comes
back and says your advice was lousy then they're cutting themselves off from
the empathy. If they try the advice and it fails and say "Help, I don't
understand!" they'll get lots of empathy.

Joyce

Barb Eaton

Thank you Joyce for your whole post! This was what I was trying to ask
at the conference when I asked how you change your vocabulary. Then someone
asked for an example. I couldn't give one and we moved on. I was trying to
get to that shift. Also how you get others to understand what you are really
talking about when you talk about unschooling. I've talked before about
respect and choices. Just about everyone beleives they give their kids that.
It is more than that. How do you communicate to others, including dh, what
you really mean? Maybe using the " what if your friend did/said that to
you?" example will help to explain better. I know I've read it before but it
just didn't come together for me until now. I've come a long way since
conference. Thankyou all. :-)

Barb E
"Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the
seeds you plant."

- Robert Louis Stevenson, Author




on 1/31/03 8:14 AM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

> So how do you describe something that needs a point of view shift to
> understand? Most people start with trying to help someone shift their point
> of view. *That's* the transition that most people are trying to help others
> make. They're trying to help them understand what the principles are and why
> they work so that someone can make their own decisions. It's the difference
> in thinking between stopping at a stop sign because it says stop, and
> stopping because the principle behind where stop signs are placed is to
> indicate intersections where there's a good chance you're going to get hit
> by cross traffic if you don't stop and look.
>
> That's why I use a lot of "what if your husband did that to you?" examples.
> That gets the different point of view part across but it can't give the
> whole unschooling/conscious parenting picture. It implies hands off
> parenting. Honestly seeing what the world looks like through the eyes of
> someone with entirely different needs is an *important* aspect to grasp, but
> if that's the *only* aspect they grasp then they're going to get a false
> picture of what people are trying to say.
>
> Until we figure out some good ways of getting the concepts across -- and
> it's not going to happen any time soon -- it's helpful to accept that lots
> of stuff is going to get mistranslated. It's like unschoolers are speaking a
> foreign language. The problem is the language sounds exactly like English so
> it seems like we're communicating. But the two languages have different
> definitions for words that sound and look the same.
>
> Joyce
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/03 4:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
homemama@... writes:

> . Just about everyone beleives they give their kids that.
> It is more than that. How do you communicate to others, including dh, what
> you really mean? Maybe using the " what if your friend did/said that to
> you?" example will help to explain better.

That and I also use the statement/phrase about trusting your child to make
dicisions for himeself.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

72 e-mails left (not counting what people are writing now).
I might catch up!!


In a message dated 1/31/03 6:16:04 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< And that translating of words into already understood contexts is the
essence of the problem. >>

There's a newish word for that. It's called "exfomation."

When people have common experiences and knowledge, they can communicate more
efficiently than those who don't have those experiences.

I think it's probably the theory behind the E.D. Hirsch stuff about having
common cultural information, so that if people mention Jacob and Esau, others
there don't have to say "WHO?"

That way similes and analogies and puns will make sense to lots of people.

But within a group like this, if someone makes reference to something most of
the people know about, it's a cultural shorthand.

<<There's a really good book about the process of thinking. It's called The
Society of Mind (by Marvin Minsky I think). It's about how we build up these
little piece of understanding to understand larger things. I think one of
the examples he used was how we figure out how a fast food restaurant
operates if we've had experience with sit down restaurants and other things.>>

Maybe like this? (Or maybe I'm mis-guessing.)

<< Can one intense interest come to represent or lead to all others? A mom
once complained that her son was interested in nothing but World War II.
There are college professors and historians who are interested in nothing but
World War II. It can become a life’s work. But even a passing interest can
touch just about everything—geography, politics, the history and current
events of Europe and parts of the Pacific, social history of the 20th century
in the United States, military technology, tactics, recruitment and
propaganda, poster art/production/distribution, advances in communications,
transport of troops and food and supplies, espionage, prejudices, interment
camps, segregation, patriotism, music, uniforms, insignia, religion….

<<When someone really understands one war, he can easily understand another,
because he will have all the framework and questions in his mind. When he
understands how countries are born, invaded, and how a government can die
out, he understands truths about all nations and civilizations.

<<But there may be no overriding interest like chess or WWII in a child’s
life yet, and might rarely be. So then where do parents go with their
fearful unschooling energy?>>

http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/194/jaunschooling.html


-=- The problem is the language sounds exactly like English so
it seems like we're communicating. But the two languages have different
definitions for words that sound and look the same.-=-

And not for any reasons of evasion or other sneakiness. Just because the
beliefs behind it are different.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/31/03 4:25 PM, Barb Eaton at homemama@... wrote:

> Thank you Joyce for your whole post! This was what I was trying to ask
> at the conference when I asked how you change your vocabulary.

Ah, now I understand. Because it isn't changing the vocabulary. It's
acquiring new meanings for the words we thought we already knew.

It's like my "lowing" example that Kelly keeps alluding to. ;-) We build up
definitions for words example by example, slowly refining them over the
years so that our definition makes sense in the contexts we've encountered
the word in. We know what "sit" means because we've had a few million
encounters with it in a huge range of contexts. But most of us probably only
have a *guess* what we think lowing might mean just because our encouters
with it are so few. We just don't have enough examples to have tested and
refined the definition on to feel confident that we know for sure.

All the words we know are somewhere on that spectrum from totally clear
understanding to a fuzzy understanding that has worked for us so far. Our
definitions work for the contexts we've encountered. If we've had a lot of
encounters and don't come across any new contexts, our definitions won't
refine any further and we'll be pretty certain we know what a word means.
Like sit. We're pretty sure we're not going to encounter a context that will
turn our understanding on it's ear.

And *that's* where people are when the come here. They *know* what respect
is. They *know* what learning means. The definitions they have have always
worked in the contexts they've encountered.

But here are new contexts. The contexts *will* help people build up a
clearer understanding of the words they thought were already clear. But
people tend to read the new contexts using the old definitions because it
isn't totally clear right off that the old definitions don't work.

Refining definitions takes time and lots and lots of examples. We could hand
someone the definition but it doesn't mean anything without the examples to
compare it to.

> I've talked before about
> respect and choices. Just about everyone beleives they give their kids that.
> It is more than that. How do you communicate to others, including dh, what
> you really mean? Maybe using the " what if your friend did/said that to
> you?" example will help to explain better. I know I've read it before but it
> just didn't come together for me until now. I've come a long way since
> conference.

And if we knew that we wouldn't be having this conversation! ;-)

I think awareness that the words we're using aren't creating the same mental
picture for someone else that they do for us helps us understand where we're
going wrong. Knowing how to fix it is, of course, something else.

Analogies help. But it's helpful to be aware that we intend for the analogy
to describe a piece of something larger. And the person trying to understand
doesn't know which piece of the analogy is relevant to what piece of the new
thing they're trying to understand.

The husband and wife analogies are good examples. After one of mine, Julie
(I think?) responded that her husband does ask for help with the yard work
and she goes and helps him. And that's the goal parents generally have in
mind: I ask for something, the kids just naturally understand how important
it is, so they do it. So in that way the husband and wife analogies are
misleading because someone is going to think parts of it apply (the adult
understanding of what's needed) that don't apply. (Which is why I try to
pick ridiculous examples of what husbands are asking us to do ;-) Because
what we as adults are asking seems equally ridiculous to kids.)

So far no one has come upon the right phrase that turns on all the light
bulbs to illuminate the point of view that people didn't realize existed. It
takes lots of reading, lots of examples, lots of trying and thinking about
why things work and don't work, lots of time. It's what people need to learn
anything new.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/03 6:03:12 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< Julie
(I think?) responded that her husband does ask for help with the yard work
and she goes and helps him. And that's the goal parents generally have in
mind: I ask for something, the kids just naturally understand how important
it is, so they do it. >>

Last night Kirby and Holly were off at a Harry Potter tournament, Keith was
watching a movie, and I was feeling very sick and tired.

The sink was overflowing with dishes. I just wanted to drink some juice and
go to bed, but there wasn't a glass in the cabinet.

Had I been younger I might have just cried.

But I called Marty (who's 14) and asked him if he was at a pausing point
(thinking he was playing a video game). He said "I was watching TV." I
asked if he could help me at the commercial. He said it wasn't an important
show and he could help me then.

I asked him to help me unload and load the dishwasher.

I could have asked him to do it himself, but he would have felt put-upon,
there are things he's not quite sure how best to fit in there, and there are
things I know exactly where I want put.

He said "Sure!" and then he said "The counter's getting messed up again too"
and he started putting things away which had just gradually been left out,
like salt shakers and extra napkins and empty cans and plastic containers
which weren't stacked.

When we emptied the dishwasher, I did the technical stuff and what needed no
walking, and he did the easy stuff and what needed to go several steps away,
because my foot was hurting.

When it was loaded and going and the kitchen looked MUCH better, it hadn't
taken more than about five minutes. I said "Thanks, Marty. It was way
easier and more fun with two of us."

He smiled and agreed.

Sandra

Barb Eaton

Pam G,
Then I get back the "But their only kids. They don't have the experience
I do." kind of answer. Trust is foreign and hard for so many parents. I just
want to help but they just can't hear me or trust in what I am saying. It's
so sad. :-( All I can do is try to say it in such a way to make them think
about it.

Barb E
"Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the
seeds you plant."

- Robert Louis Stevenson, Author




on 1/31/03 7:31 PM, genant2@... at genant2@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/31/03 4:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> homemama@... writes:
>
>> . Just about everyone beleives they give their kids that.
>> It is more than that. How do you communicate to others, including dh, what
>> you really mean? Maybe using the " what if your friend did/said that to
>> you?" example will help to explain better.
>
> That and I also use the statement/phrase about trusting your child to make
> dicisions for himeself.
> Pam G.

Barb Eaton

Joyce,
I'll use that new approach at this months meetings. And with my husband
too.;-) Maybe then they'll get it better.
I don't always feel that time is on my side when it comes to my oldest
(17yo) I keep trying. He is just so recluse. He still blames me for thinking
he would know what to do with himself/learn at 10yo when I took him out of
school. Blaming and excuses are big one to overcome. I asked him the other
day if he was happy with the way thing are. He said "I don't know, I guess"
When I asked him if he could do anything different, something he'd like to
do, in the near future, he answered with I don't know. That is such a
typical answer for him. I try to go back to these questions or tell him he
can answer me later after he thinks about it. The answers still the same.
How am I to help him get what he wants if he won't let me help him.I try my
bset not to pressure him but he does need to think about his future and what
he wants out of it. I encourage and I guess that's the best I can do. Time
will tell. Anyone have any suggestions?
He does go to class once a week for Computer Network Administration.
It's been pretty boring this year since they lost their sponsor at Lucent
Technology. They are temporarily at a school but they can't use any of their
equipment. :-( I was hoping this would give him a step into an
apprenticeship. Now I'm not sure what to do to help him. Small picture of
life as we know it. Well I've rambled on enough. :-)

Barb E
"A goal is created three times. First as a mental picture.
Second, when written down to add clarity and dimension.
And third, when you take action towards its achievement."

- Gary Ryan Blair, ³The Goals Guy²




on 2/1/03 8:05 AM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

> So in that way the husband and wife analogies are
> misleading because someone is going to think parts of it apply (the adult
> understanding of what's needed) that don't apply. (Which is why I try to
> pick ridiculous examples of what husbands are asking us to do ;-) Because
> what we as adults are asking seems equally ridiculous to kids.)
>
> So far no one has come upon the right phrase that turns on all the light
> bulbs to illuminate the point of view that people didn't realize existed. It
> takes lots of reading, lots of examples, lots of trying and thinking about
> why things work and don't work, lots of time. It's what people need to learn
> anything new.
>
> Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/03 10:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
homemama@... writes:

> ,
> Then I get back the "But their only kids. They don't have the experience
> I do." kind of answer. Trust is foreign and hard for so many parents. I
> just
> want to help but they just can't hear me or trust in what I am saying. It's
> so sad. :-( All I can do is try to say it in such a way to make them think
> about it.
>
>

And I think that is all I want to do. Maybe make them think. It isn't my
place to tell anyone they have to change. When I get the response about "But
they're only kids..." I just say they are young and they can benefit from my
experience...but I don't force it on them. We talk and they pick and choose
what they want to hear. I don't get into confrontation. I learn a lot by
being around them. When they spend the whole of play group talking about
what phonics curriculum is best I learn that I am soooo glad it isn't me.
They always come back to me as the odity and say how do you teach your boys
to read. I say I don't. They say how do they learn. I say by being read to
and seeing words. Dallen already reads and Phillip is getting it. We can
have a good dialogue. I guess the homeschoolers I am around are not pushy in
their belief either. We all get along. Maybe I am lucky that way. If I
can't be around unschoolers at least I am around nice people.
Pam G.


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