Heidi <[email protected]>

or, long-time unschoolers who remember what it was like before they
took the plunge.

How did you cope with the anxiety that you might be setting the kids
up for a future in dire straits?

The more I read: about education, about how people learned and earned
way back when (before gov't mandated schooling in the 1850's), about
what "schooling" really means today (ala John Taylor Gatto), and the
more I think: about my own education vs. my own "schooling", and
about my best friend whose children I have described for you here,
whose true strengths, where they have excelled the most, have been
where she has let them choose their own path with little pushes from
her once they chose; and the more I observe: the most successful
people I know, both those who have made excellent earnings and those
who have succeeded in non-monetary ways, have been most successful
where they've followed their passions.

I don't want to stifle this ability to find themselves, in my
children. I'm really REALLY close to letting them do it their own
way, and even took my fingers off the "off" button on TV and computer
for the past two and a half weeks. But there is a definite fear still
hanging in there, that Robby will do nothing but computer. He was
online before breakfast this morning...and then he went for a long
bike ride with Katie. Now he's waiting for me to be done with the
puter so he can get back on...ack.

Another question I have is related to advice I give parents who ask
me about it, when they want to homeschool their kids who have been to
school under the government system. I tell them, every time "Don't
worry about academics in the first year. Just re-build the
relationship with the kids. Enjoy your time with them. They're not
going to slip academically if they have a year of decompression."
Well, we've been homeschooling in a very laid back, relaxed way, for
seven years. Pretty much, math every day, reading of your choice, and
play time.

Would we still go through a "deschooling" time, even though the
rhythm of our school days has always been subordinate to the
household routines? (except the first half of this year, when K12
pushed us into an unnatural cycle that was nothing but frustrating)
Could less than one semester of this "cycle" bring about a situation
where the kids need to "deschool"? I'm trying to see the light at the
end of the tunnel, when Robby WON'T gravitate towards the computer.

I'm sure there will be more questions. Main one: dealing with the
anxiety that I'll ruin my kids' future.

thanks

Heidi

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 2:16:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> Would we still go through a "deschooling" time, even though the
> rhythm of our school days has always been subordinate to the
> household routines? (except the first half of this year, when K12
> pushed us into an unnatural cycle that was nothing but frustrating)
> Could less than one semester of this "cycle" bring about a situation
> where the kids need to "deschool"?

I'm guessing you might need MORE time. And it doesn't start until after the
LAST nag. So if you get through three months of no nagging about math or
reading or computer time, and then you NAG, Deschooling STARTS OVER. Because
they don't believe you.


I'm trying to see the light at the
> end of the tunnel, when Robby WON'T gravitate towards the computer.
>
It may take MUCH longer if THAT'S your goal.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi <[email protected]>

Hi Kelly, thanks!

> I'm guessing you might need MORE time.

By "one semester" I meant, we did K12 for less than a full semester,
and was wondering if that would set us back, to where we needed to
deschool. My style has always been really relaxed, but I have had
Math as part of every day, and reading, and "no computer until you
get that math done" has been a standard statement around here...do
they need to "deschool" from even that low pressure style?

Peace, Heidi

[email protected]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:14:47 -0000 "Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...>"
<bunsofaluminum60@...> writes:
> How did you cope with the anxiety that you might be setting the kids
> up for a future in dire straits?

Heidi,
This was/is my problem too. With me, I think it is a control thing. I
feel like it is my responsibility to make sure my children grow up to be
successful, happy adults, and I lack the confidence in believing that I
am capable of this. Somebody here sent me a reassuring note off list that
said, in effect, that it is their lives. We can't control the outcome,
only to help them meet what they feel the outcome should be. This is hard
for me. But when I watch how my children live and learn, I find that they
are happiest when I'm not leading their way. My husband's and my intent
before we ever had children was to homeschool them. We saw first hand how
mandated school stifled childrens' learning. We did not want this for our
little blessings. With our first child, we were very *into* her learning,
constantly practicing A,B,Cs, counting, "educating", and she did learn
all these things. Second child came along, and things were really busy.
We just didn't have the time to spend "educating" her. She picked up
things as she went, just observing life and people. By *natural* means,
she has learned all these things on her own accord, and quite joyfully.
This is when I became interested in this concept of unschooling. Could
this really work or is it just some unproven theory? It was so different
than anything I have ever experienced or seen. I put it to the test. When
first dd was about four and a half, I started working with her doing
phonics. She knew all the letters and the sounds they made, but couldn't
put them together. Then she plain out told me that she did not like
sounding out words because she thought it was a waste of time. Here, ever
since I started reading to her at 3 weeks (what can I say, I love to
read) she has been looking at the words as well as the pictures, and
somewhere along the line has memorized what I guess educators call *sight
words*. If I had continued to try to push her into learning to read in a
way that was not comfortable to her, not only would I have stifled her
natural ability to learn, but I would be wasting a lot of time as well.
It is things like this that constantly remind me that I can only get in
the way of them learning, if I don't let go of this control/fear thing
over them not learning without being taught. Sure, they may become happy,
successful adults in spite of my hang-ups, but I would rather make their
path easier. It will be tough enough. I think that the best thing I can
do for my children, is to be there when they need me, trust their
instincts, and catch them if they fall. I think the sooner I let go of
the belief that I have control, the easier it will be to accept the fact
that they are their own person, and their definition of happiness and
success as an adult may be totally different than mine. Different, but
not wrong. I don't know if any of this makes any sense. I'm just a
"newbie" trying to work this all out myself.

Wende

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Heidi <[email protected]>

Wende,

Excellent reply! thanks so much...

you said: Second child came along, and things were really busy.
We just didn't have the time to spend "educating" her. She picked up
things as she went, just observing life and people. By *natural*
means,
she has learned all these things on her own accord, and quite
joyfully.

This is one of the things I was talking about in my post: the things
I've actually observed. Katie is 8, and has speech apraxia, which
caused quite a speech delay. Because she was "behind" in her
speaking, I never did any formal educating with her, except teaching
her to write her numbers and her letters, with sounds of the
consonants. She also knows how to write her name in cursive.L

So, we're enrolling in K12, back in mid-September. There's a
placement test, and we went through the math test together. I found
out, Katie knew how to add, 1's, 2's, 5's, and 10's. Where the HECK
did she get it? I never taught it to her. She didn't know everything
perfectly, but she understood (understands) what is behind all those
numbers. This kinda blew me away, but my immediate thinking was "wow.
Just imagine how far along she would be if I had taught her
formally." However, my thinking is becoming "wonder how far she'll go
if I let her go for it without interfering." And I'm closer to that
decision than ever before.

*gulp*

Heidi

Heidi <[email protected]>

Wende,

Excellent reply! thanks so much...

you said: Second child came along, and things were really busy.
We just didn't have the time to spend "educating" her. She picked up
things as she went, just observing life and people. By *natural*
means,
she has learned all these things on her own accord, and quite
joyfully.

This is one of the things I was talking about in my post: the things
I've actually observed. Katie is 8, and has speech apraxia, which
caused quite a speech delay. Because she was "behind" in her
speaking, I never did any formal educating with her, except teaching
her to write her numbers and her letters, with sounds of the
consonants. She also knows how to write her name in cursive.L

So, we're enrolling in K12, back in mid-September. There's a
placement test, and we went through the math test together. I found
out, Katie knew how to add, 1's, 2's, 5's, and 10's. Where the HECK
did she get it? I never taught it to her. She didn't know everything
perfectly, but she understood (understands) what is behind all those
numbers. This kinda blew me away, but my immediate thinking was "wow.
Just imagine how far along she would be if I had taught her
formally." However, my thinking is becoming "wonder how far she'll go
if I let her go for it without interfering." And I'm closer to that
decision than ever before.

*gulp*

Heidi

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

Hi Heidi.

I just got home. Looks like you already got good feeback. Here
are a few of my thoughts.

--- In [email protected], "Heidi
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> or, long-time unschoolers who remember what it was like
before they
> took the plunge.
>
> How did you cope with the anxiety that you might be setting the
kids
> up for a future in dire straits?

I'm still coping with it. All I can say is that I had to come to the
point where I really believed that the "educational view" of
learning was not superior to natural learning spawned by
interest and personal freedom.

I know that my passion for learning is fueled by my drive to find
out about what interests me, not by some group of ideas
someone assembled somewhere that I ought to master. And I've
watched as the things that I'm interested in have led to things I
wouldn't have cared about at all in an ordinary class setting.

Forgive me if I've used this example here before.

I'm a big U2 fan and read articles about the band every single
day. Being a fan has meant growth in my undestanding of
pop/rock music, rock history, poetry and song lyrics (which I now
teach as a result), and other bands I would never have heard of.
But it has led other places outside music too: the current AIDs
crisis in Africa which has led to my daughter and I volunteering at
AIDs hospice in town, awareness of Sellafield (nuclear plant off
the coast of Ireland that is dangerously near to families... which
led to learning about the Chernobyl's Children's project and an
increased interest in protecting all of us from nuclear dangers.

I was also greatly influenced by Bono's very different faith which
led to all my theological reading that has sent me in an entirely
new direction spiritually.

and all this reading of the same story and material over and over
has made me keenly aware of good and bad writing which has
improved my own writing. Through my love for this band, I've
already been hired to write about them twice!

All from listening to a band. I can imagine another mother
thinking, "All my son cares about is that band _________"
thinking that the child isn't learning anything.

So I got to thinking: what would happen if my kids had similar
opportunities to just go after what hooked their jaws?

They've been playing X box and computer games non-stop for
almost four weeks now. (Yes, I was worried about it). But it's
been great. I've seen some surprising stuff result. One thing is,
they are sharing so much more easily now that their time isn't
limited. Secondly, they are playing games I didn't expect (I fully
thought they'd be bombing and shooting only. But Basketball is a
favorite and they play the two player version). Thirdly, they are
also doing other stuff!!!

I think when we say that computer is all they'll do, we are
shortchanging them as human beings. I may be on the
computer alot, but it's hardly ALL I DO. I think that is propaganda
from the other side that wants control.

I'm keeping a daily log of stuff the kids do, movies we watch, TV
shows, books read, outings, cool discoveries and so on. I'm
amazed at how much great stuff we've done in three and a half
weeks.

Here's a short list (and know that X box and computer games are
the most frequently played)

*astronomy (learned about how the Chinese, Muslim and
Jewish calendars differ from ours and each other)
*Chinese culture
*Learned about red and grey squirrel habits
*signed up as volunteers for AIDs hospice
*felted wool and made a purse
*one kid started his cookie business
*musical instruments played with joy
*lots of IM chatting
*sports practice and games
*books read
*Yu-Gi-Oh cards
*board games
*chess
*Library trips
*movies of all kinds including Casablanca, The Great Escape
and Kung Pao. (We are on a WWII binge which has been almost
daily for all three weeks)
*Reality TV shows. (This has been fascinating for them. The
cirque de Soliel one has led to all the imaginary play for my
littlest daughter)
*Table decorating
*costumes
*Joining the zoo

On and on.

I guess what I want to say is that although I sometimes catch
myself feeling nervous, it's really based on losing the old
worldview more than on a lack of faith in the new one. I'm still
figuring out how to let go of control while offering great ideas to
support their interests.

My husband and I both liked this switch from:

authority and rules

to:

support and principles

And right now I think it will take me until the end of 2003 before I
really get the hang of how to be the support they need and to
discover the way each one is best nurtured in his/her pursuits.

This list is helping!

Glad you are here too Heidi.
Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/03 3:26:23 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< "no computer until you
get that math done" has been a standard statement around here...do
they need to "deschool" from even that low pressure style? >>

For how long did you think computers didn't have to do with math?
Maybe first the mom has to deschool, and the general prediction is one month
per year of schooling. In this case, maybe all the years you went to school
plus the years you believed school-style learing was the only real learning.

<<I have had
Math as part of every day, and reading>>

Math IS part of every day.
Reading is party of every day.

If they're made separate FROM part-of-every-day that needs some deschooling.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 5:24:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> My style has always been really relaxed, but I have had
> Math as part of every day, and reading, and "no computer until you
> get that math done" has been a standard statement around here...do
> they need to "deschool" from even that low pressure style?
>

If they BELIEVE what you've been telling them the truth oh these many
years---that math is only available through workbooks and that reading must
be from some text---or even done "purposefully", then yeah---they deperately
need to deschool. Even low pressure is pressure. And YOU have to beLIEVE!
(Hear Jesse Jackson's voice here! ). BeLIEVE! BeLIEVE!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 5:28:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
love-it-here@... writes:
> Sure, they may become happy,
> successful adults in spite of my hang-ups, but I would rather make their
> path easier. It will be tough enough. I think that the best thing I can
> do for my children, is to be there when they need me, trust their
> instincts, and catch them if they fall. I think the sooner I let go of
> the belief that I have control, the easier it will be to accept the fact
> that they are their own person, and their definition of happiness and
> success as an adult may be totally different than mine. Different, but
> not wrong. I don't know if any of this makes any sense. I'm just a
> "newbie" trying to work this all out myself.
>

You sound like a veteran, Wende. Well said!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi <[email protected]>

that math is only available through workbooks and that reading must
> be from some text---or even done "purposefully",


Hi ~Kelly

math from texts: yes

reading from texts? NEVER unless they want to read text books.

Usually, we find something we're going to explore, and then hit the
library and get TONS of books on that topic, and have them around the
place. Including "fact" books, biographies, fiction, etc. I always
have believed that "living books" are going to lead to self-thinkers
much better than textbooks. Maybe that's what you mean
by "purposefully" but I've never forced them to read anything that we
get from the library. I just have plenty of material available around
the place, for them to pick up and read or not. Their choice.

I don't have a smidgen of a problem with letting my kids choose when,
where, what to read...but math...I have Math Anxiety by Proxy! LOL
sort of like Munchausen's by Proxy...less deadly, I hope?

Heidi

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/03 12:16:42 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< But there is a definite fear still
hanging in there, that Robby will do nothing but computer. He was
online before breakfast this morning...and then he went for a long
bike ride with Katie. Now he's waiting for me to be done with the
puter so he can get back on...ack. >>

That doesn't seem at all like a problem to me, especially if it's been
limited up 'til lately.

<<I'm trying to see the light at the
end of the tunnel, when Robby WON'T gravitate towards the computer.>>

Doesn't seem a good ideal-end-of-'tunnel.'

Why see yourself in a dark tunnel?

Why should he avoid the computer?

-=-I'm sure there will be more questions. Main one: dealing with the
anxiety that I'll ruin my kids' future.-=-

Maybe you could practice getting over your computer anxiety.


Sandra

Christine Helms

As a newbie, i'm wondering what is deschooloing?
Chris

----------
>From: SandraDodd@...
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: For Julie Bogart, and other "newbies..."
>Date: Wed, Jan 29, 2003, 6:48 PM
>

>
> In a message dated 1/29/03 3:26:23 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
>
> << "no computer until you
> get that math done" has been a standard statement around here...do
> they need to "deschool" from even that low pressure style? >>
>
> For how long did you think computers didn't have to do with math?
> Maybe first the mom has to deschool, and the general prediction is one month
> per year of schooling. In this case, maybe all the years you went to school
> plus the years you believed school-style learing was the only real learning.
>
> <<I have had
> Math as part of every day, and reading>>
>
> Math IS part of every day.
> Reading is party of every day.
>
> If they're made separate FROM part-of-every-day that needs some deschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
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Your ISP has scanned this email for Viruses and Spam Control.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 9:31:11 AM, KindredSpiritsYoga@... writes:

<< As a newbie, i'm wondering what is deschooloing? >>

Recovering from school to the point that the kids don't make their decisions
in avoidance of school-seeming things, and in the parents, to the point that
the parents can see the learning in things that USED to, or one time would
have looked like, playing or "doing nothing."

Both the kids and parents need time to decompress, and often the parents need
more time or at least more conscious thought to recover than the kids.

The estimate I've most often hear is give it a month for each year a child
was in school, but some people just say "give it a year."

Here's a column I wrote last year for Home Education Magazine to help
parents with this transition:

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/03 3:46:06 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< his kinda blew me away, but my immediate thinking was "wow.
Just imagine how far along she would be if I had taught her
formally." However, my thinking is becoming "wonder how far she'll go
if I let her go for it without interfering." And I'm closer to that
decision than ever before. >>

Here's something by Tamyy Cardwell, a Christian homeschooler in Texas, that
reminds me of what you just wrote. (or what you wrote reminded me of her
writing...)

I'm the person who asked the question which inspired her to write this:

http://www.eho.org/features/confession_time.htm

Sandra

Jim Selvage

> Here's a column I wrote last year for Home Education Magazine to help
> parents with this transition:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> Sandra

Wow Sandra, thanks! This is exactly what I needed to read today!

blessings,
erin