Re: Is Unschooling A Transformation?
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/27/03 8:23:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
[email protected] writes:
> It's been great asking questions and learning about unschooling. I have a[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> few questions I'd like some of the experienced and new unschoolers to
> answer if they would like to do that.
>
> 1. Do most unschoolers feel that their lifestyle has come about as a
> process, or working transformation, or have many unschoolers been
> unschoolers since their children were babies?
>
> 2. Are there certain situations, where unschooling just doesn't seem to
> work, or do most unschoolers unschool 100% of the time?
>
> I have met only a few unschoolers and watched and talked to them about how
> they unschool. They all in conversations seem to be saying what most of
> the posters on this board say, but when I watch them interact with their
> children, I can see where they make decisions for their children, and
> coerce them into doing something they want. An example of this is at a
> potluck one of the children wanted to eat something he's allergic to, but
> his mom wouldn't let him do that. Another situation is when it was time to
> leave, we had to be out of the rented space at 2:30pm, the child wanted to
> stay longer. The mother ended up having to pick him up and take him out
> because reasoning with him wasn't working. Would most of you do things
> differently in situations similar to this?
>
> I've tried to figure out how to do things so my children get to make
> decisions on their own, but often times their decision doesn't just affect
> me and my family, but it affects others.
>
> 3. How do you handle situations where a small child wants to do something,
> but what he wants to do affects everyone, not just the child and the
> family?
>
> An example of this is when my son was playing around and wouldn't get ready
> to go out to dinner. Everyone was patiently waiting and encouraging him to
> get ready. It isn't that he didn't want to go, but because of his age, he
> has no sense of time, or no concern for others feelings. My father-in-law
> needed to eat soon because he's on a schedule like I am when it comes to
> eating.
>
> Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:49:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HappyMato2@... writes:
make a change. I say we took a sharp LEFT turn when we found unschooling.
It's a process. We feel that we've "arrived" though! <G>
It's been said here several times, but there IS a paradigm shift. Almost
everything has to change to "get it". We've all been brainwashed for YEARS.
That's a lot of "dirt" to get back into our heads!
quite perfect! <G> I'm not pleasant when I'm over-hungry, but my sweet boys
will remind me to eat if I get crabby. Or bring me food. <g>
If it's a true allergy, she was possibly saving his life!
This ISN'T NCP/TCS where you let the child do "whatever" to his obvious
detriment or that of another. It would matter more WHY and HOW she
acted/reacted.
You have to realize: we hear people come here every week who say that they
unschool except for math. They unschool with educational things. But they
require chores and they ground for such-and-such offense and they don't allow
certain language in the houses.
MANY who profess to be unschoolers....AREN'T. Or maybe they're wannabees who
haven't yet "arrived". Or maybe they're hungry! <BWG>
WANT to please. They don't always know HOW. It's our job to help them gently.
Joyce? Joyce?
If you were to speak with him as you would with ANY other person: "We REALLY
need to go now. Opa MUST have some food---you know, or he'll get sick and
crabby like ME! Let's get a move on! Here, I have your shoes."
Any help at all?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HappyMato2@... writes:
> 1. Do most unschoolers feel that their lifestyle has come about as aCameron was in sixth grade at a progressive private school when we decided to
> > process, or working transformation, or have many unschoolers been
> > unschoolers since their children were babies?
make a change. I say we took a sharp LEFT turn when we found unschooling.
It's a process. We feel that we've "arrived" though! <G>
It's been said here several times, but there IS a paradigm shift. Almost
everything has to change to "get it". We've all been brainwashed for YEARS.
That's a lot of "dirt" to get back into our heads!
> >I think it's 99.7 %. With real unschoolers. We may have lapses. We're not
> > 2. Are there certain situations, where unschooling just doesn't seem to
> > work, or do most unschoolers unschool 100% of the time?
quite perfect! <G> I'm not pleasant when I'm over-hungry, but my sweet boys
will remind me to eat if I get crabby. Or bring me food. <g>
> > I have met only a few unschoolers and watched and talked to them about howWell, thank you for specifics.
>
> > they unschool. They all in conversations seem to be saying what most of
> > the posters on this board say, but when I watch them interact with their
> > children, I can see where they make decisions for their children, and
> > coerce them into doing something they want. An example of this is at a
> > potluck one of the children wanted to eat something he's allergic to, but
>
> > his mom wouldn't let him do that.
If it's a true allergy, she was possibly saving his life!
This ISN'T NCP/TCS where you let the child do "whatever" to his obvious
detriment or that of another. It would matter more WHY and HOW she
acted/reacted.
> Another situation is when it was time toProbably. I would have made somewhere else seem like a MUCH better place.
> > leave, we had to be out of the rented space at 2:30pm, the child wanted to
>
> > stay longer. The mother ended up having to pick him up and take him out
> > because reasoning with him wasn't working. Would most of you do things
> > differently in situations similar to this?
You have to realize: we hear people come here every week who say that they
unschool except for math. They unschool with educational things. But they
require chores and they ground for such-and-such offense and they don't allow
certain language in the houses.
MANY who profess to be unschoolers....AREN'T. Or maybe they're wannabees who
haven't yet "arrived". Or maybe they're hungry! <BWG>
>Joyce has the best explanation of this: children don't WANT to be bad. They
> > 3. How do you handle situations where a small child wants to do
> something,
> > but what he wants to do affects everyone, not just the child and the
> > family?
> > An example of this is when my son was playing around and wouldn't get
> ready
> > to go out to dinner. Everyone was patiently waiting and encouraging him
> to
> > get ready. It isn't that he didn't want to go, but because of his age,
> he
> > has no sense of time, or no concern for others feelings. My
> father-in-law
> > needed to eat soon because he's on a schedule like I am when it comes to
> > eating.
WANT to please. They don't always know HOW. It's our job to help them gently.
Joyce? Joyce?
If you were to speak with him as you would with ANY other person: "We REALLY
need to go now. Opa MUST have some food---you know, or he'll get sick and
crabby like ME! Let's get a move on! Here, I have your shoes."
Any help at all?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a...
wrote:
One of the things I've taken away from this list is a shift in how
we see our role in the home. Until now, even though I consider
us to be nurturing and attentive to our kids feelings, I've still felt
that we were the authorities and that we were enforcing
household rules. (I probably wouldn't ahve put it in that crass
language, but after being here for over a month, I see now that
that is in practice how we lived.)
Now we have made (are making) a shift to having principles and
offering support. I see us as facilitators and resources rather
than leaders. And I see our home being run by principles rather
than requirments.
This was a big mind shift. And as you said, I was much further
along that continuum with my attitude toward "school" courses
and education than I was with our home life.
The other night I was sharing a lot of this with my husband. He
was frustrated that our 15 yr old hasn't had the gumption to get a
job. The 15 yr old says he wants one, but he forgets to follow
through or he fills out the app and never turns it in.
In the past, we would have just said, "Well he's not working
then." Sort of a holding him accountable thing.
But last night we realized that we could simply support him and
help him. We could drive him around, help him figure out what
he wants to do and then make sure he knows how to present
himself, etc. it was weird. It seemed so obvious once we talked
about it, but I believe we wouldn't have seen it until we thought
about offering help instead of feeling we were capitulating to his
weakness.
Anyway, just thought I'd add that story to the pot.
Julie B
wrote:
> Any help at all?Your whole post was helpful to me, Kelly.
>
One of the things I've taken away from this list is a shift in how
we see our role in the home. Until now, even though I consider
us to be nurturing and attentive to our kids feelings, I've still felt
that we were the authorities and that we were enforcing
household rules. (I probably wouldn't ahve put it in that crass
language, but after being here for over a month, I see now that
that is in practice how we lived.)
Now we have made (are making) a shift to having principles and
offering support. I see us as facilitators and resources rather
than leaders. And I see our home being run by principles rather
than requirments.
This was a big mind shift. And as you said, I was much further
along that continuum with my attitude toward "school" courses
and education than I was with our home life.
The other night I was sharing a lot of this with my husband. He
was frustrated that our 15 yr old hasn't had the gumption to get a
job. The 15 yr old says he wants one, but he forgets to follow
through or he fills out the app and never turns it in.
In the past, we would have just said, "Well he's not working
then." Sort of a holding him accountable thing.
But last night we realized that we could simply support him and
help him. We could drive him around, help him figure out what
he wants to do and then make sure he knows how to present
himself, etc. it was weird. It seemed so obvious once we talked
about it, but I believe we wouldn't have seen it until we thought
about offering help instead of feeling we were capitulating to his
weakness.
Anyway, just thought I'd add that story to the pot.
Julie B
kayb85 <[email protected]>
> This was a big mind shift. And as you said, I was much furtherThe "school" part came much quicker and easier for me than the home
> along that continuum with my attitude toward "school" courses
> and education than I was with our home life.
life stuff too. :)
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/29/03 7:47:12 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< The mother ended up having to pick him up and take him out
I've carried kids out, but we've all been happier when I could persuade them
out.
Way before I had children, I took education classes taught by school reform
advocates who had me read about Summerhill and John Holt and read the
inner-city-teaching books that were coming out then, late 1960's, early
1970's. Jonathan Kozol. I forget who all.
When the liberal modern methods didn't work so well because kids were forced
to be there and I was forced to give grades, and rank kids, and keep kids
"showing progress" and all that, it was discouraging.
Years passed. I spent most of those ensuing years heavily involved in the
Society for Creative Anachronism, where people learn some pretty far-ranging
things for free, for fun, just because they need to know or want to know.
And I saw many of them get to the point that they had jobs doing costumes for
operas, or armor for museums, or calligraphy for government projects and
movies. And lots more did it just for the joy of it.
When I had Kirby I joined La Leche League, and through that a babysitting
co-op that devolved into just a playgroup after a few years. There were
four homeschooling families in that co-op. I didn't intend to homeschool,
but I and my kids knew these families in their homes, and knew their kids in
our homes.
What a lucky lab situation for me!! Two families were structured and two
were unschooling.
The main differences were the unschooled kids were nicer and more honest.
The unschooling families had warmer relationships with their kids. Kids
would come up and sit with their moms and dads instead of avoiding them in
situations like barbecues or parties. Those kids would have conversations
with me like I was just another kid, just another person. The
structured-family kids were like kids who went to school. I saw no
differences in the patterns or the relationships between the parents and
kids, even though these moms were as involved in La Leche League as others in
the group.
Then Kirby came to seem like a kid who should stay home. I didn't consider
buying a curriculum. I re-read all applicable books then in my possession
(Whole Child, Whole Parent; some Holt; Chop Wood, Carry Water), I subscribed
to Growing Without Schooling, and read each issue cover to cover, publication
declarations, ads and personals and all.
I figured if it wasn't working I could switch to something else, but of
course it did work.
So my transformation happened gradually and in the absence of kids.
There were three kids in there years before Kirby, who were 3, 10 and 12
(plus three years for each) who were in the custody of my first husband and
me. His youngest sister and brother, and my half brother. I learned a lot
of what didn't work, what might work, and what I could do better in the
future. I was 21 to 24 during those years.
Sandra
<< The mother ended up having to pick him up and take him out
> > because reasoning with him wasn't working. Would most of you do things<<Probably. I would have made somewhere else seem like a MUCH better place. >>
> > differently in situations similar to this?
I've carried kids out, but we've all been happier when I could persuade them
out.
Way before I had children, I took education classes taught by school reform
advocates who had me read about Summerhill and John Holt and read the
inner-city-teaching books that were coming out then, late 1960's, early
1970's. Jonathan Kozol. I forget who all.
When the liberal modern methods didn't work so well because kids were forced
to be there and I was forced to give grades, and rank kids, and keep kids
"showing progress" and all that, it was discouraging.
Years passed. I spent most of those ensuing years heavily involved in the
Society for Creative Anachronism, where people learn some pretty far-ranging
things for free, for fun, just because they need to know or want to know.
And I saw many of them get to the point that they had jobs doing costumes for
operas, or armor for museums, or calligraphy for government projects and
movies. And lots more did it just for the joy of it.
When I had Kirby I joined La Leche League, and through that a babysitting
co-op that devolved into just a playgroup after a few years. There were
four homeschooling families in that co-op. I didn't intend to homeschool,
but I and my kids knew these families in their homes, and knew their kids in
our homes.
What a lucky lab situation for me!! Two families were structured and two
were unschooling.
The main differences were the unschooled kids were nicer and more honest.
The unschooling families had warmer relationships with their kids. Kids
would come up and sit with their moms and dads instead of avoiding them in
situations like barbecues or parties. Those kids would have conversations
with me like I was just another kid, just another person. The
structured-family kids were like kids who went to school. I saw no
differences in the patterns or the relationships between the parents and
kids, even though these moms were as involved in La Leche League as others in
the group.
Then Kirby came to seem like a kid who should stay home. I didn't consider
buying a curriculum. I re-read all applicable books then in my possession
(Whole Child, Whole Parent; some Holt; Chop Wood, Carry Water), I subscribed
to Growing Without Schooling, and read each issue cover to cover, publication
declarations, ads and personals and all.
I figured if it wasn't working I could switch to something else, but of
course it did work.
So my transformation happened gradually and in the absence of kids.
There were three kids in there years before Kirby, who were 3, 10 and 12
(plus three years for each) who were in the custody of my first husband and
me. His youngest sister and brother, and my half brother. I learned a lot
of what didn't work, what might work, and what I could do better in the
future. I was 21 to 24 during those years.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/29/03 8:34:42 PM, julie@... writes:
<< But last night we realized that we could simply support him and
help him. We could drive him around, help him figure out what
he wants to do and then make sure he knows how to present
himself, etc. it was weird. It seemed so obvious once we talked
about it, but I believe we wouldn't have seen it until we thought
about offering help instead of feeling we were capitulating to his
weakness.
<<Anyway, just thought I'd add that story to the pot. >>
I like that story. Haven't ever heard one like it!
Sandra
<< But last night we realized that we could simply support him and
help him. We could drive him around, help him figure out what
he wants to do and then make sure he knows how to present
himself, etc. it was weird. It seemed so obvious once we talked
about it, but I believe we wouldn't have seen it until we thought
about offering help instead of feeling we were capitulating to his
weakness.
<<Anyway, just thought I'd add that story to the pot. >>
I like that story. Haven't ever heard one like it!
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/29/03 9:35:08 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< The "school" part came much quicker and easier for me than the home
life stuff too. :) >>
I probably should have mentioned in my summary a minute ago that we had the
home life stuff fairly well down (except we still attempted regular jobs
sometimes, sporadically) before Kirby was school age. We didn't make him
eat, we let him eat dessert first at restaurants if it seemed they could get
pie there quicker than they could chicken strips, or potatoes, or whatever.
He would still eat the other foods. And we were good with letting them have
power of choice and range of movement (choosing where to be at parks or malls
or whatever instead of dragging them along where we wanted to be).
So we were convinced in advance that they had the full power to make good
decisions and we didn't have any superstitions about what would happen if you
"let kids have their way."
Sandra
<< The "school" part came much quicker and easier for me than the home
life stuff too. :) >>
I probably should have mentioned in my summary a minute ago that we had the
home life stuff fairly well down (except we still attempted regular jobs
sometimes, sporadically) before Kirby was school age. We didn't make him
eat, we let him eat dessert first at restaurants if it seemed they could get
pie there quicker than they could chicken strips, or potatoes, or whatever.
He would still eat the other foods. And we were good with letting them have
power of choice and range of movement (choosing where to be at parks or malls
or whatever instead of dragging them along where we wanted to be).
So we were convinced in advance that they had the full power to make good
decisions and we didn't have any superstitions about what would happen if you
"let kids have their way."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/29/2003 10:34:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
You know, it's kind of like a "Gee I could have had a V-8" moment! <G>
But until you're "there", you're still not "there".
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
> But last night we realized that we could simply support him andThanks for sharing.
> help him. We could drive him around, help him figure out what
> he wants to do and then make sure he knows how to present
> himself, etc. it was weird. It seemed so obvious once we talked
> about it, but I believe we wouldn't have seen it until we thought
> about offering help instead of feeling we were capitulating to his
> weakness.
>
You know, it's kind of like a "Gee I could have had a V-8" moment! <G>
But until you're "there", you're still not "there".
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
"kayb85 <sheran@...>" <sheran@...> wrote: The "school" part came much quicker and easier for me than the home
life stuff too. :)
Definitely!!
I'll be going along thinking, oh this is so great, this new way of life we have and bang, I'm tired and grumpy and the old Kelli comes out.
I do think it is happening less and less though. But I do know we take a giant step backward when I do it, I can really see it in my kids.
The whole conscious parenting thing is what I try and keep at the forefront of my mind, respectfulness especially.
This has been huge.
Kelli
life stuff too. :)
Sheila
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
life stuff too. :)
Definitely!!
I'll be going along thinking, oh this is so great, this new way of life we have and bang, I'm tired and grumpy and the old Kelli comes out.
I do think it is happening less and less though. But I do know we take a giant step backward when I do it, I can really see it in my kids.
The whole conscious parenting thing is what I try and keep at the forefront of my mind, respectfulness especially.
This has been huge.
Kelli
> This was a big mind shift. And as you said, I was much furtherThe "school" part came much quicker and easier for me than the home
> along that continuum with my attitude toward "school" courses
> and education than I was with our home life.
life stuff too. :)
Sheila
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
SandraDodd@... wrote:
things for free, for fun, just because they need to know or want to know.
And I saw many of them get to the point that they had jobs doing costumes for
operas, or armor for museums, or calligraphy for government projects and
movies. And lots more did it just for the joy of it.<<
This is great to hear over and over, there are jobs out there that can fit right in with joy. I know like others have said, you might not make a fortune but you probably can make a living. There's a difference.
This gives me hope!
Kelli
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>I spent most of those ensuing years heavily involved in theSociety for Creative Anachronism, where people learn some pretty far-ranging
things for free, for fun, just because they need to know or want to know.
And I saw many of them get to the point that they had jobs doing costumes for
operas, or armor for museums, or calligraphy for government projects and
movies. And lots more did it just for the joy of it.<<
This is great to hear over and over, there are jobs out there that can fit right in with joy. I know like others have said, you might not make a fortune but you probably can make a living. There's a difference.
This gives me hope!
Kelli
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
1. Do most unschoolers feel that their lifestyle has come about as a
oldest was about 2 1/2 and my youngest was about 2 months old. It had
nothing to do with "school" or "curriculum" choices and I didn't even know at
the time that such a thing as unschooling existed but my thinking back then
was so much the same. It talked about how we (dh and I) had talked about
spanking and discipline before the boys were born and had decided to not use
punishment. And it talked about how when my first son was a baby he demanded
a lot of closeness with us. How we had abandoned our thinking about children
and went with our gut instincts and held him and created a family bed etc.
The letter talked about how we came to the conclusion to never make decisions
for our children about food. They would decide when, where, what and how
much to eat. etc.
My dh didn't know about the letter and when I showed him he assumed I had
just written it. When I told him I had written it years ago he was so
pleased with how everything had gone and is going now. How our thinking
then, even though we were nervous about our decisions, had been so right. At
that time we didn't have the Internet and were in the military and had no
support system but each other.
All these gut instincts totally went against everything we were taught were
proper parenting techniques. But everything we did then put us in a place to
be so receptive to the unschooling concept when we discovered it. So our
boys have never been made to do anything they didn't want to and when my
oldest became old enough and everyone was asking us about preschool we
gravitated toward letting him make the decisions then as well. It all seemed
to flow so nicely for us. No major revelations, no deschooling, no belief
changes etc.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>process, or working transformation, or have many unschoolers beenI was reading a letter I had written to my boys. I had written it when my
>>unschoolers since their children were babies?
oldest was about 2 1/2 and my youngest was about 2 months old. It had
nothing to do with "school" or "curriculum" choices and I didn't even know at
the time that such a thing as unschooling existed but my thinking back then
was so much the same. It talked about how we (dh and I) had talked about
spanking and discipline before the boys were born and had decided to not use
punishment. And it talked about how when my first son was a baby he demanded
a lot of closeness with us. How we had abandoned our thinking about children
and went with our gut instincts and held him and created a family bed etc.
The letter talked about how we came to the conclusion to never make decisions
for our children about food. They would decide when, where, what and how
much to eat. etc.
My dh didn't know about the letter and when I showed him he assumed I had
just written it. When I told him I had written it years ago he was so
pleased with how everything had gone and is going now. How our thinking
then, even though we were nervous about our decisions, had been so right. At
that time we didn't have the Internet and were in the military and had no
support system but each other.
All these gut instincts totally went against everything we were taught were
proper parenting techniques. But everything we did then put us in a place to
be so receptive to the unschooling concept when we discovered it. So our
boys have never been made to do anything they didn't want to and when my
oldest became old enough and everyone was asking us about preschool we
gravitated toward letting him make the decisions then as well. It all seemed
to flow so nicely for us. No major revelations, no deschooling, no belief
changes etc.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
> In a message dated 1/27/03 8:23:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,a
> [email protected] writes:
> 1. Do most unschoolers feel that their lifestyle has come about as
> process, or working transformation, or have many unschoolers beenI think I've always been one, having "risen out of" school myself.
> unschoolers since their children were babies?
Neither my husband or I finished high school in a traditional way. I
think we both realized the futility and uselessness of the system,
and neither wanted to apply it to our kids. We never once thought
about sending the kids to school.
> 2. Are there certain situations, where unschooling just doesn'tseem to
> work, or do most unschoolers unschool 100% of the time?I think it works for anything you're willing or able to have patience
for, and you have to have enough self-knowledge not to have a hidden
agenda that they learn subject X by age Y.
The only thing we haven't unschooled is swimming. I'm pretty adamant
that my kids know how to swim. We're around water all the time, and I
think it's an important thing to know. I've told them that either I
will teach them or they can take lessons. My son just opted to drop
lessons and have me continue teaching him. As soon as they're
proficient swimmers, we'll stop. But I wasn't willing to wait until
whatever age they thought it would be good to learn to swim. I guess
because I've pulled a 7 year old boy from a river where he would've
drowned, I've got strong feelings on this one. Everything else I'm
willing to be patient with.
> I have met only a few unschoolers and watched and talked to themabout how
> they unschool. They all in conversations seem to be saying whatmost of
> the posters on this board say, but when I watch them interact withtheir
> children, I can see where they make decisions for their children,and
> coerce them into doing something they want. An example of this isat a
> potluck one of the children wanted to eat something he's allergicto, but
> his mom wouldn't let him do that.Two comments on this one. Number one is that I don't think
unschooling and non-coercive parenting (NCP) are the same thing. As
the mom of a food-allergic kid, I have no problem "coercing" my child
and not allowing him to eat something he's allergic to. Especially
before we had him treated and his allergies were of the life-
threatening variety. I also wouldn't allow him to step out in front
of a speeding truck, which is more or less the equivalent for an
allergic kid.
> Another situation is when it was time towanted to
> leave, we had to be out of the rented space at 2:30pm, the child
> stay longer. The mother ended up having to pick him up and takehim out
> because reasoning with him wasn't working. Would most of you dothings
> differently in situations similar to this?Well, with the allergy thing, we've done a lot of discussions to help
the kids understand what living with a food allergy means so that
they can take control of it themselves, but when they were younger we
did a lot of "coercing" for lack of a better word. And still, if
there's an unknown food, I have to read the ingredients and make the
decision, because neither of them is at the point they can do that
yet. If that's coercive, so be it. I don't see unschooling as
allowing my kids to die or live in terrible health.
As far as leaving someplace, I always try to set up the situation so
that we don't get into a power struggle about leaving. I don't think
I've had to pick my kids up since they were small toddlers. But
neither would it be negotiable if it is a rented space. If I knew
that transitioning away from the activity was likely to be a big
problem, I'd probably try to set up the situation so that we had
something interesting to do next, even just a special Lego project at
home to do. But that doesn't always work. If it came down to it, yeah
I'd pick my kid up and carry them out. At some point, I feel you have
to balance courtesy for others (like the group who might want to
continue renting that space, or the next group who had the space
rented) with your child's immediate comfort level. A lot of it is age
dependent.
> I've tried to figure out how to do things so my children get tomake
> decisions on their own, but often times their decision doesn't justaffect
> me and my family, but it affects others.It's a balancing act, for sure!
> 3. How do you handle situations where a small child wants to dosomething,
> but what he wants to do affects everyone, not just the child andthe
> family?Try to think out of the box and find ways to make it work for
everyone.
> An example of this is when my son was playing around and wouldn'tget ready
> to go out to dinner. Everyone was patiently waiting andencouraging him to
> get ready. It isn't that he didn't want to go, but because of hisage, he
> has no sense of time, or no concern for others feelings. My father-in-law
> needed to eat soon because he's on a schedule like I am when itcomes to
> eating.Well, first of all, I'd say that if your FIL needs to eat, that's
something he needs to take responsibility for. I also need to eat
frequently, and I'm never without a small bag of nuts, a fruit
leather, some carrot sticks, etc. in my purse. That way I'm not
dependent on anyone else's whims for getting my own needs taken care
of.
Secondly, I'd take a look at whether going out to a restaurant is a
good idea if you've got a child that is going to make it difficult.
There were several years where we just didn't do restaurants because
the kids really weren't capable of sitting still, being quiet enough,
etc. and it would've been a miserable situation. If you have to drag
a kid kicking and screaming to a restaurant, what's the point of
spending the money to have a nice meal, KWIM? So we try to set up
situations where everyone wins. If we wanted to have a nice meal at a
restaurant, we waited until my mom was visiting and could hang out
with the kids.
I'm not trying to evade the question - there *are* times when a kid
has to do something they simply don't want to do. It might be
accompanying a parent to a doctor's appointment that they couldn't
schedule for any other time, and they couldn't find someone to be
with the kids. At those times, I just try my best to make it pleasant
for the kids. Bring along a special book or toy, etc.
If getting ready to go is a problem, get them ready before they start
playing. I've found it's easier to ask my kids to get dressed, hair
combed, teeth brushed right when we get out of bed, for instance. If
I wait until they're deep in play and we need to get somewhere, it's
much more difficult and we end up being late. If need be, I'll put
their shoes in the car, and they can put them on when they get there.
With my kids at an age where time relevance and distractibility are
big issues, I just do my best to make it easy for them. Doesn't
always work though.
I find that when I am able to think creatively, find way to do things
I want to do that also keeps the kids happy, bring along distractions
for things they don't want to do, and try and help them as much as
possible with getting ready to go places, usually we have a fairly
easy time of it.
I also think it helps if you're usually easy-going. My kids know that
most of the time, I'm willing to roll with their schedule. A two hour
playdate can often turn into a five hour playdate, and I'm willing to
just hang around at a park or pool or beach just so they can have
more time with their friends. It helps that their friend's moms are
usually my good friends, so it's a bonus for all of us. :-) But given
all of that, when I do need to go someplace and we do have to leave,
they're usually pretty understanding because I don't arbitrarily
force them to do that all the time.
I think the same thing goes for the swimming lessons. I explained to
them that, while I'm perfectly willing to let them follow their
agenda on everything else, there's this one thing that I want them to
learn now, for their own safety. Neither of them has complained about
it or balked at it. I think they trust that if I feel it's important
enough to have them learn it now, then it is important. If I forced
them to learn other, more arbitrary things all the time, they
wouldn't have that trust.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Christine Helms
I need some advice on what to offer to my DH as inspiration to support me in
homeschooling my 2 boys. Have any of you had spouses that were not on board
in the beginning. My boys are young 5 and 2 1/2 and have not been in school
so i feel lucky that i am not being challanged on pulling them out. However,
my DH is an admisitrator at a community college. Director of student life,
and he says he sees homeschoolers that don't function socially. Although i
don't buy that socialization myth, that is where he is. We are also coming
form a historu of educators in the Public Schools. His father was the
principal of the local school for 30 years. I would love some ideas to help
shape a paradigm shift for him.
Thanks,
Chris
----------
homeschooling my 2 boys. Have any of you had spouses that were not on board
in the beginning. My boys are young 5 and 2 1/2 and have not been in school
so i feel lucky that i am not being challanged on pulling them out. However,
my DH is an admisitrator at a community college. Director of student life,
and he says he sees homeschoolers that don't function socially. Although i
don't buy that socialization myth, that is where he is. We are also coming
form a historu of educators in the Public Schools. His father was the
principal of the local school for 30 years. I would love some ideas to help
shape a paradigm shift for him.
Thanks,
Chris
----------
>From: SandraDodd@...email to:
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Is Unschooling A Transformation?
>Date: Wed, Jan 29, 2003, 11:37 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 1/29/03 7:47:12 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
>
> << The mother ended up having to pick him up and take him out
>> > because reasoning with him wasn't working. Would most of you do things
>> > differently in situations similar to this?
>
> <<Probably. I would have made somewhere else seem like a MUCH better place. >>
>
> I've carried kids out, but we've all been happier when I could persuade them
> out.
>
> Way before I had children, I took education classes taught by school reform
> advocates who had me read about Summerhill and John Holt and read the
> inner-city-teaching books that were coming out then, late 1960's, early
> 1970's. Jonathan Kozol. I forget who all.
>
> When the liberal modern methods didn't work so well because kids were forced
> to be there and I was forced to give grades, and rank kids, and keep kids
> "showing progress" and all that, it was discouraging.
>
> Years passed. I spent most of those ensuing years heavily involved in the
> Society for Creative Anachronism, where people learn some pretty far-ranging
> things for free, for fun, just because they need to know or want to know.
> And I saw many of them get to the point that they had jobs doing costumes for
> operas, or armor for museums, or calligraphy for government projects and
> movies. And lots more did it just for the joy of it.
>
> When I had Kirby I joined La Leche League, and through that a babysitting
> co-op that devolved into just a playgroup after a few years. There were
> four homeschooling families in that co-op. I didn't intend to homeschool,
> but I and my kids knew these families in their homes, and knew their kids in
> our homes.
>
> What a lucky lab situation for me!! Two families were structured and two
> were unschooling.
>
> The main differences were the unschooled kids were nicer and more honest.
> The unschooling families had warmer relationships with their kids. Kids
> would come up and sit with their moms and dads instead of avoiding them in
> situations like barbecues or parties. Those kids would have conversations
> with me like I was just another kid, just another person. The
> structured-family kids were like kids who went to school. I saw no
> differences in the patterns or the relationships between the parents and
> kids, even though these moms were as involved in La Leche League as others in
> the group.
>
> Then Kirby came to seem like a kid who should stay home. I didn't consider
> buying a curriculum. I re-read all applicable books then in my possession
> (Whole Child, Whole Parent; some Holt; Chop Wood, Carry Water), I subscribed
> to Growing Without Schooling, and read each issue cover to cover, publication
> declarations, ads and personals and all.
>
> I figured if it wasn't working I could switch to something else, but of
> course it did work.
>
> So my transformation happened gradually and in the absence of kids.
>
> There were three kids in there years before Kirby, who were 3, 10 and 12
> (plus three years for each) who were in the custody of my first husband and
> me. His youngest sister and brother, and my half brother. I learned a lot
> of what didn't work, what might work, and what I could do better in the
> future. I was 21 to 24 during those years.
>
> Sandra
>
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>
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Christine Helms
Another question here in "letting their kids have their way". I saw a
posting about a concern for too much TV. I too share that concern! My 5yr
old loves tv but i feel that as a responsible parent it is something that
needs to me limited based on the fact that TV actually changes the way that
the brain forms! The neuron synapses are actually developed differently. The
other effects of tv is that is filling thier brains with "other peoples
ideas" of the world and how to do things, what to buy, how to believe etc.
instead of having them go inside thmselves to discover there own creativity
and passions. Just as i don't want the school system to impose their ideas
as to what eh world should be and thoughts to have, so too i don't the TV to
dictate that either.
Chris
----------
posting about a concern for too much TV. I too share that concern! My 5yr
old loves tv but i feel that as a responsible parent it is something that
needs to me limited based on the fact that TV actually changes the way that
the brain forms! The neuron synapses are actually developed differently. The
other effects of tv is that is filling thier brains with "other peoples
ideas" of the world and how to do things, what to buy, how to believe etc.
instead of having them go inside thmselves to discover there own creativity
and passions. Just as i don't want the school system to impose their ideas
as to what eh world should be and thoughts to have, so too i don't the TV to
dictate that either.
Chris
----------
>Your ISP has scanned this email for Viruses and Spam Control.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/30/2003 10:39:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
diamondair@... writes:
We have a pool, so we're ULTRA-freaky about drowning!
We never "did" swimming lessons. He spent most of his first years on the
steps or in our arms or with "swimmies/wings/whatever-you-call-them". When HE
was ready, he took the wings off. He kept his head above water until HE was
ready to go under. He stayed near the edge until HE was ready to venture out.
He's a fish.
He watched us. He felt us. He copied us. And he had the opportunity from
April (brrr) to November to swim almost daily. So he swims. And he doesn't
seem to have to "relearn" every year as our friends' children (who took
lessons) do. Maybe because he "owns" the learning.
~Kelly, mom of TWO strong, self-taught fish
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diamondair@... writes:
> The only thing we haven't unschooled is swimming. I'm pretty adamantGreat post, Robin. But I'll disagree here!!! <G>
> that my kids know how to swim. We're around water all the time, and I
> think it's an important thing to know. I've told them that either I
> will teach them or they can take lessons. My son just opted to drop
> lessons and have me continue teaching him. As soon as they're
> proficient swimmers, we'll stop. But I wasn't willing to wait until
> whatever age they thought it would be good to learn to swim. I guess
> because I've pulled a 7 year old boy from a river where he would've
> drowned, I've got strong feelings on this one. Everything else I'm
> willing to be patient with.
>
We have a pool, so we're ULTRA-freaky about drowning!
We never "did" swimming lessons. He spent most of his first years on the
steps or in our arms or with "swimmies/wings/whatever-you-call-them". When HE
was ready, he took the wings off. He kept his head above water until HE was
ready to go under. He stayed near the edge until HE was ready to venture out.
He's a fish.
He watched us. He felt us. He copied us. And he had the opportunity from
April (brrr) to November to swim almost daily. So he swims. And he doesn't
seem to have to "relearn" every year as our friends' children (who took
lessons) do. Maybe because he "owns" the learning.
~Kelly, mom of TWO strong, self-taught fish
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
Robin,
I also enjoyed your post very much. I wanted to share what worked for my
kids with regards to swimming. They never had lessons. My kids were
exposed to the water from the time they were babies. I even dunked them
under, with their permission from the time they were really little. They
saw me dunking under and comfortable in the water and didn't think it was
unusual. I would blow in their faces and they would automatically hold
their breath, then I would immerse them, with a smile, and bring them back
up, telling them what a great job they did. I NEVER did this unless they
agreed to it and knew it was coming. They never inhaled the water.
My kids knew they could trust me in the water. When they were very small ,
I would swim on my back with them on my tummy, laying on their backs or
sitting up. We spend the summers on the lake and in the winter we get a
three month membership to a local pool and gym. I think the main thing that
has helped them, is that I am with them in the water all the time instead of
watching from the sidelines and that they have been exposed to the water a
*lot.*
One child could swim underwater at 2 and keep her head above the water at 3.
The other could swim underwater at 3 and keep her head above at 4. I showed
them how to float on their backs while they were little, so they knew they
could always rest if they needed to. I supported them while they laid in
the water on their backs with my hand and gradually went to supporting them
with one finger, and eventually they trusted that they would float. At 6
and 8, both are learning to do the crawl and the backstroke. They want to
do them, because they see me doing them.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I also enjoyed your post very much. I wanted to share what worked for my
kids with regards to swimming. They never had lessons. My kids were
exposed to the water from the time they were babies. I even dunked them
under, with their permission from the time they were really little. They
saw me dunking under and comfortable in the water and didn't think it was
unusual. I would blow in their faces and they would automatically hold
their breath, then I would immerse them, with a smile, and bring them back
up, telling them what a great job they did. I NEVER did this unless they
agreed to it and knew it was coming. They never inhaled the water.
My kids knew they could trust me in the water. When they were very small ,
I would swim on my back with them on my tummy, laying on their backs or
sitting up. We spend the summers on the lake and in the winter we get a
three month membership to a local pool and gym. I think the main thing that
has helped them, is that I am with them in the water all the time instead of
watching from the sidelines and that they have been exposed to the water a
*lot.*
One child could swim underwater at 2 and keep her head above the water at 3.
The other could swim underwater at 3 and keep her head above at 4. I showed
them how to float on their backs while they were little, so they knew they
could always rest if they needed to. I supported them while they laid in
the water on their backs with my hand and gradually went to supporting them
with one finger, and eventually they trusted that they would float. At 6
and 8, both are learning to do the crawl and the backstroke. They want to
do them, because they see me doing them.
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/30/03 11:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> We have a pool, so we're ULTRA-freaky about drowning!Ditto.....My boys are exactly the same and learned to swim on their own.
>
> We never "did" swimming lessons. He spent most of his first years on the
> steps or in our arms or with "swimmies/wings/whatever-you-call-them". When
> HE
> was ready, he took the wings off. He kept his head above water until HE was
>
> ready to go under. He stayed near the edge until HE was ready to venture
> out.
> He's a fish.
>
> He watched us. He felt us. He copied us. And he had the opportunity from
> April (brrr) to November to swim almost daily. So he swims. And he doesn't
> seem to have to "relearn" every year as our friends' children (who took
> lessons) do. Maybe because he "owns" the learning.
>
> ~Kelly, mom of TWO strong, self-taught fish
>
>
>
>
>
>
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
Christine Helms wrote:
You got any references?
Shyrley
> Another question here in "letting their kids have their way". I saw aAs a neuroscience graduate I would be fascinated to read that research as I've never heard it before.
> posting about a concern for too much TV. I too share that concern! My 5yr
> old loves tv but i feel that as a responsible parent it is something that
> needs to me limited based on the fact that TV actually changes the way that
> the brain forms! The neuron synapses are actually developed differently.
You got any references?
Shyrley
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Angela"
<unschooling@p...> wrote:
there about water babies, kids in water, everything. I read them all
before my kids were born. Both of my kids were born in birth tubs,
quite literally born into the water! I'm a swimmer, have been a fish
all my life, never miss a chance to swim. I swim in lakes all summer,
oceans, rivers, pools - whenever I can! I've been a lifeguard, a
swimming teacher, and a swim coach. I was pretty confident my kids
would love the water too, especially after reading all those
encouraging books. And for my daughter, she loved this method, she
was in the pool from when she was just a few weeks old. She's always
been a fish. If all my kids were like her, I'd totally believe that
this method worked great for all kids! But my son is not like that at
all.
For my son it just didn't work. He screamed if his feet touched
water. He wouldn't go in water at all. It might help if people
understood what SID (sensory integration dysfunction) is, I guess.
Some SID people are very sensory avoidant, as in extremely so.
Mackenzie once screamed for an entire hour because one grain of sand
was on his foot (even after we got it off). On a 2 week vacation in
Hawaii, he not only wouldn't go in the water, he wouldn't walk on the
beach, nor would he be carried over the beach. We spent 14 days there
without going to the beach as a family. He never went near the pool.
It can be very difficult for kids like this to deal with extreme
sensory input, such as being immersed in water. As a baby, I knew
something was wrong, it just took us several years to figure it out.
With Mackenzie, swimming lessons with an extremely patient teacher
were what worked best to get him into the water, get him used to it
and comfortable there (this was at age 5, mind you). One year later,
he's a fish! He liked the teacher, he liked the lessons, that's just
what happened to work for him. Plus, of course, we had done a ton of
work (dietary, occupational therapy, home exercises) to help his body
get past his SID issues that were making every day extremely
difficult for him. The combination, for him, worked great. Sure, I
wish it had been as easy as it was with his sister - just taking him
in as a baby and gradually getting him comfortable in the water - but
that was not to be.
Bottom line was that we found something he enjoyed that helped him
get comfortable in the water. Now he wants to join the swim team, and
wants to do a kid's triathlon, so he's working hard on his freestyle
stroke. We watched an Ironman video last night so that he could see
what good swimmers do with their bodies under the water. He really
likes to be able to visualize doing something in order to do it with
his body (same way I learn, which is why I suggested watching the
video).
Getting him to swim wasn't "unschooling" in that I did say that he
*needed* to learn how to swim, and I wasn't willing to wait for him
to want to do it (which might have been never). But we did work with
him to find a way that worked best for him. Immersing him as a baby,
toddler, or young child was just not going to cut it.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<unschooling@p...> wrote:
> Robin,for my
> I also enjoyed your post very much. I wanted to share what worked
> kids with regards to swimming. They never had lessons. My kidswere
> exposed to the water from the time they were babies. I even dunkedthem
> under, with their permission from the time they were reallylittle. They
> saw me dunking under and comfortable in the water and didn't thinkit was
> unusual. I would blow in their faces and they would automaticallyhold
> their breath, then I would immerse them, with a smile, and bringthem back
> up, telling them what a great job they did.I really like that method too, in *theory*. I've got every book out
there about water babies, kids in water, everything. I read them all
before my kids were born. Both of my kids were born in birth tubs,
quite literally born into the water! I'm a swimmer, have been a fish
all my life, never miss a chance to swim. I swim in lakes all summer,
oceans, rivers, pools - whenever I can! I've been a lifeguard, a
swimming teacher, and a swim coach. I was pretty confident my kids
would love the water too, especially after reading all those
encouraging books. And for my daughter, she loved this method, she
was in the pool from when she was just a few weeks old. She's always
been a fish. If all my kids were like her, I'd totally believe that
this method worked great for all kids! But my son is not like that at
all.
For my son it just didn't work. He screamed if his feet touched
water. He wouldn't go in water at all. It might help if people
understood what SID (sensory integration dysfunction) is, I guess.
Some SID people are very sensory avoidant, as in extremely so.
Mackenzie once screamed for an entire hour because one grain of sand
was on his foot (even after we got it off). On a 2 week vacation in
Hawaii, he not only wouldn't go in the water, he wouldn't walk on the
beach, nor would he be carried over the beach. We spent 14 days there
without going to the beach as a family. He never went near the pool.
It can be very difficult for kids like this to deal with extreme
sensory input, such as being immersed in water. As a baby, I knew
something was wrong, it just took us several years to figure it out.
With Mackenzie, swimming lessons with an extremely patient teacher
were what worked best to get him into the water, get him used to it
and comfortable there (this was at age 5, mind you). One year later,
he's a fish! He liked the teacher, he liked the lessons, that's just
what happened to work for him. Plus, of course, we had done a ton of
work (dietary, occupational therapy, home exercises) to help his body
get past his SID issues that were making every day extremely
difficult for him. The combination, for him, worked great. Sure, I
wish it had been as easy as it was with his sister - just taking him
in as a baby and gradually getting him comfortable in the water - but
that was not to be.
Bottom line was that we found something he enjoyed that helped him
get comfortable in the water. Now he wants to join the swim team, and
wants to do a kid's triathlon, so he's working hard on his freestyle
stroke. We watched an Ironman video last night so that he could see
what good swimmers do with their bodies under the water. He really
likes to be able to visualize doing something in order to do it with
his body (same way I learn, which is why I suggested watching the
video).
Getting him to swim wasn't "unschooling" in that I did say that he
*needed* to learn how to swim, and I wasn't willing to wait for him
to want to do it (which might have been never). But we did work with
him to find a way that worked best for him. Immersing him as a baby,
toddler, or young child was just not going to cut it.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Angela
Robin,
I wasn't criticizing the way you went about having your son learn to swim.
I was just sharing what worked for us.
Have a great night!!
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wasn't criticizing the way you went about having your son learn to swim.
I was just sharing what worked for us.
Have a great night!!
Angela in Maine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Angela"
<unschooling@p...> wrote:
just trying to clarify why it didn't work for us. It's truly the way
I would've preferred things to go. Always pictured myself swimming
blissfully with my little water babies...
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<unschooling@p...> wrote:
> Robin,to swim.
> I wasn't criticizing the way you went about having your son learn
> I was just sharing what worked for us.Hi Angela, I understood, but thanks for saying so anyways! I was
>
> Have a great night!!
just trying to clarify why it didn't work for us. It's truly the way
I would've preferred things to go. Always pictured myself swimming
blissfully with my little water babies...
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/30/03 2:46:39 PM, shyrley.williams@... writes:
<< i feel that as a responsible parent it is something that
There are two anti-TV books and some research by someone who tried to
homeschool an only child and failed, and who bragged at a homeschooling
conference that she is a REALLY tough teacher, who brooks no excuses. Then
she admitted she had never met any teenaged homeschoolers until the day
before when some had picked her up at the airport. She seemed shocked at
their maturity and intelligence.
If that's the person whose research you're basing your child's
imput-limitations on, I sincerely recommend you read some actual experiences
of real homeschoolers.
Sandra
<< i feel that as a responsible parent it is something that
> needs to me limited based on the fact that TV actually changes the way thatAs a responsible parent, you should look at more than one person's evidence.
> the brain forms! The neuron synapses are actually developed differently. >>
There are two anti-TV books and some research by someone who tried to
homeschool an only child and failed, and who bragged at a homeschooling
conference that she is a REALLY tough teacher, who brooks no excuses. Then
she admitted she had never met any teenaged homeschoolers until the day
before when some had picked her up at the airport. She seemed shocked at
their maturity and intelligence.
If that's the person whose research you're basing your child's
imput-limitations on, I sincerely recommend you read some actual experiences
of real homeschoolers.
Sandra
Betsy
**As a responsible parent, you should look at more than one person's
evidence.
There are two anti-TV books and some research by someone who tried to
homeschool an only child and failed, and who bragged at a homeschooling
conference that she is a REALLY tough teacher, who brooks no excuses.
Then
she admitted she had never met any teenaged homeschoolers until the day
before when some had picked her up at the airport. She seemed shocked
at
their maturity and intelligence.**
I didn't hear Jane Healy speak at the last HSC Sacramento conference, I
choose to sleep in instead, but she does make some TV is bad for brain
development claims in some of her books. (I can't remember the titles.)
Betsy
evidence.
There are two anti-TV books and some research by someone who tried to
homeschool an only child and failed, and who bragged at a homeschooling
conference that she is a REALLY tough teacher, who brooks no excuses.
Then
she admitted she had never met any teenaged homeschoolers until the day
before when some had picked her up at the airport. She seemed shocked
at
their maturity and intelligence.**
I didn't hear Jane Healy speak at the last HSC Sacramento conference, I
choose to sleep in instead, but she does make some TV is bad for brain
development claims in some of her books. (I can't remember the titles.)
Betsy
Christine Helms
There are much more than 2 books out there on tv is bad. and i did read Jane
Healy's book. I don't beleive i stated in my post the amount of research i
have been doing on the effects of tv, but it's been ongoing for the past 5
years, since my first was born. From your response i'm getting the feeel
that the responsible parent comment hit a nerve.
Chris
----------
Healy's book. I don't beleive i stated in my post the amount of research i
have been doing on the effects of tv, but it's been ongoing for the past 5
years, since my first was born. From your response i'm getting the feeel
that the responsible parent comment hit a nerve.
Chris
----------
>From: Betsy <ecsamhill@...>email to:
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Is Unschooling A Transformation?
>Date: Thu, Jan 30, 2003, 10:44 PM
>
>
>
> **As a responsible parent, you should look at more than one person's
> evidence.
> There are two anti-TV books and some research by someone who tried to
> homeschool an only child and failed, and who bragged at a homeschooling
> conference that she is a REALLY tough teacher, who brooks no excuses.
> Then
> she admitted she had never met any teenaged homeschoolers until the day
> before when some had picked her up at the airport. She seemed shocked
> at
> their maturity and intelligence.**
>
> I didn't hear Jane Healy speak at the last HSC Sacramento conference, I
> choose to sleep in instead, but she does make some TV is bad for brain
> development claims in some of her books. (I can't remember the titles.)
>
> Betsy
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
> the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
> owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
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>
> Your ISP has scanned this email for Viruses and Spam Control.
>
cindyjsowers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
was "known" to change the workings of the brain, but I think that
many people who are doing attachment parenting and are in sync with
that way of thinking at some point read Joseph Chilton Pearce who
really goes off in a big way on t.v. I think he had two books after
the Magical Child book that really went into detail about the horror
of t.v. and how everyone was going to end up stupid and it should be
absolutely avoided. Basically, that the brain couldn't develop
correctly, that you would be skipping all sorts of developmental
stages and then, once that time was up, poof, you were wrecked.
It's a little like the Waldorf way of thinking about stages
of "incarnation" or whatever. I also think that Holt plugged
Pearce's book, and you might get to the Magical Child through John
Holt as well. I read the Magical Child and the one after that,
something like Evolution's End (?) and they stuck with me a long
time, because they were so fatalistic in many ways. Extremely
scary, if you took them to heart. I think some of his ideas may
come into my head when my own children are in front of the t.v., as
well, and it is hard to shake. I would have to go back and look at
his specific wording and documentation, but I think for many people,
these books may have left traces of fear and horror. I did premed
in college, but I can't remember much of it and don't really know
how the neurons form and what not (Shyrley?). I'm not that
compelled to look it up. My children, well, mostly the older one
(4) does watch some t.v., and right now when we have just moved to
Vermont in the midst of the coldest winter I've ever experienced, we
have it on for a couple hours a day, which is way more than we are
used to (we are used to going outside all winter and messing around
in puddles in Seattle -- here it is below zero most days and windy,
and you start gasping when you are outside for more than 10
minutes). We have plenty of things to do here, in terms of books
and art projects and toys and games, but then we get tired and the
t.v. comes on so we can just lay around and veg really.
I don't think that Joseph Chilton Pearce knows that much about
everything (he is not a science expert that I am aware of), but I
don't know for sure. Can someone just tell me he is full of it
please?
Cindy
>evidence.
> As a responsible parent, you should look at more than one person's
> There are two anti-TV books >I can't speak for the person who originally posted that t.v.
was "known" to change the workings of the brain, but I think that
many people who are doing attachment parenting and are in sync with
that way of thinking at some point read Joseph Chilton Pearce who
really goes off in a big way on t.v. I think he had two books after
the Magical Child book that really went into detail about the horror
of t.v. and how everyone was going to end up stupid and it should be
absolutely avoided. Basically, that the brain couldn't develop
correctly, that you would be skipping all sorts of developmental
stages and then, once that time was up, poof, you were wrecked.
It's a little like the Waldorf way of thinking about stages
of "incarnation" or whatever. I also think that Holt plugged
Pearce's book, and you might get to the Magical Child through John
Holt as well. I read the Magical Child and the one after that,
something like Evolution's End (?) and they stuck with me a long
time, because they were so fatalistic in many ways. Extremely
scary, if you took them to heart. I think some of his ideas may
come into my head when my own children are in front of the t.v., as
well, and it is hard to shake. I would have to go back and look at
his specific wording and documentation, but I think for many people,
these books may have left traces of fear and horror. I did premed
in college, but I can't remember much of it and don't really know
how the neurons form and what not (Shyrley?). I'm not that
compelled to look it up. My children, well, mostly the older one
(4) does watch some t.v., and right now when we have just moved to
Vermont in the midst of the coldest winter I've ever experienced, we
have it on for a couple hours a day, which is way more than we are
used to (we are used to going outside all winter and messing around
in puddles in Seattle -- here it is below zero most days and windy,
and you start gasping when you are outside for more than 10
minutes). We have plenty of things to do here, in terms of books
and art projects and toys and games, but then we get tired and the
t.v. comes on so we can just lay around and veg really.
I don't think that Joseph Chilton Pearce knows that much about
everything (he is not a science expert that I am aware of), but I
don't know for sure. Can someone just tell me he is full of it
please?
Cindy
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/31/2003 9:19:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cindyjsowers@... writes:
So is John Rosemond, GPSC (god of parents of schooled children).
There is MUCH better REAL advice HERE from incredible parents of incredible
children.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cindyjsowers@... writes:
> . Can someone just tell me he is full of itHe's full of (sh)it.
> please?
>
So is John Rosemond, GPSC (god of parents of schooled children).
There is MUCH better REAL advice HERE from incredible parents of incredible
children.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cindyjsowers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
homeschooling families who just don't own t.v.'s, probably for a
variety of reasons, but maybe because they think that t.v.'s are
inherently very bad for people? So there is that thought that goes
through the homeschooling culture for sure. I'm not totally
convinced that t.v. is "good" for a person, but maybe it's not
really bad either, huh? I do know that for myself, if I watch much
t.v., it feels a little addictive and I tend to forget how much time
has passed, and that there were other things that I had planned to
do that I might have enjoyed more, had I actually gotten them
started, but then it gets late and I don't feel like dragging out
something to start on, and there it goes. Sometimes it feels like a
huge time wasting mechanism.
Are there people on this list that DON'T own t.v.'s? Just wondering.
On a similar note, the first homeschooled family of teenaged kids
that I met, in Seattle, who got me onto the idea of unschooling for
my own kids, were just about the coolest beings I had ever met. I
just absolutely gravitated towards them. They were marvelous
beings. I would have enjoyed them as friends, and I had never
thought that about 15, 16 and 17 year olds before. Anyway, their
parents were asked by a group forum "well, what did you do, if you
didn't have textbooks, didn't have any curriculum or course of
study?" The parents looked at each other and laughed. The mom sort
of sheepishly responded, "well, we read aloud every day, sometimes
for about 2-3 hours", trying to make it seem like they had done
something "productive". And the father, very proud of the fact that
the kids were so marvelous and hadn't done things in the "usual"
manner, said, "heck, they really just played video games all day!
Seriously. Like 3-4 hours of video games every day." He was
probably over simplifying, but at the time I thought that was so
amazing. Had they REALLY played video games all day? The kids were
all musical marvels in truth, and had played music half the day and
video games the other (okay, and probably done a few other things in
between). But, I remember some people just kind of dismissing the
whole family at that point, saying something like, "well, I was so
disappointed to hear that they played video games. And did you hear
their grammar? It was horrible. I won't want my kids playing video
games all day, that's for sure." Their grammar, to me, was
impeccable, actually. They used colloquialisms, because they were
hip and were teenagers. But they didn't make errors in grammar, I
don't think. For the nay sayers, though, I think it was just a way
of dismissing something that didn't fit into one's framework -- the
video game thing.
I'm not really in sync with the movement, but there is an article on
the Taking Children Seriously site by the physicist David D (can't
recall spelling) about computer games, that is worth reading. He
basically says that people see that kids like something, in this
instance computer games, and they immediately set out to prove that
it is bad. He thinks that they never have any real evidence, but
that they already determine ahead of time that the thing (whatever
it is) that kids like is bad and they just bring a bunch of semi-
evidence together to try to prove their point. But that the truth
is, the fact that the kids like it so much is what is bothering them
in the first place. It just doesn't sit well with them type thing.
Good article, anyway.
Cindy
Cindy
> In a message dated 1/31/2003 9:19:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,incredible
> cindyjsowers@y... writes:
>
>
> > . Can someone just tell me he is full of it
> > please?
> >
>
> He's full of (sh)it.
>
> So is John Rosemond, GPSC (god of parents of schooled children).
>
> There is MUCH better REAL advice HERE from incredible parents of
> children.Okay, cool. Now I can relax! Ha ha. There seem to be many
>
> ~Kelly
homeschooling families who just don't own t.v.'s, probably for a
variety of reasons, but maybe because they think that t.v.'s are
inherently very bad for people? So there is that thought that goes
through the homeschooling culture for sure. I'm not totally
convinced that t.v. is "good" for a person, but maybe it's not
really bad either, huh? I do know that for myself, if I watch much
t.v., it feels a little addictive and I tend to forget how much time
has passed, and that there were other things that I had planned to
do that I might have enjoyed more, had I actually gotten them
started, but then it gets late and I don't feel like dragging out
something to start on, and there it goes. Sometimes it feels like a
huge time wasting mechanism.
Are there people on this list that DON'T own t.v.'s? Just wondering.
On a similar note, the first homeschooled family of teenaged kids
that I met, in Seattle, who got me onto the idea of unschooling for
my own kids, were just about the coolest beings I had ever met. I
just absolutely gravitated towards them. They were marvelous
beings. I would have enjoyed them as friends, and I had never
thought that about 15, 16 and 17 year olds before. Anyway, their
parents were asked by a group forum "well, what did you do, if you
didn't have textbooks, didn't have any curriculum or course of
study?" The parents looked at each other and laughed. The mom sort
of sheepishly responded, "well, we read aloud every day, sometimes
for about 2-3 hours", trying to make it seem like they had done
something "productive". And the father, very proud of the fact that
the kids were so marvelous and hadn't done things in the "usual"
manner, said, "heck, they really just played video games all day!
Seriously. Like 3-4 hours of video games every day." He was
probably over simplifying, but at the time I thought that was so
amazing. Had they REALLY played video games all day? The kids were
all musical marvels in truth, and had played music half the day and
video games the other (okay, and probably done a few other things in
between). But, I remember some people just kind of dismissing the
whole family at that point, saying something like, "well, I was so
disappointed to hear that they played video games. And did you hear
their grammar? It was horrible. I won't want my kids playing video
games all day, that's for sure." Their grammar, to me, was
impeccable, actually. They used colloquialisms, because they were
hip and were teenagers. But they didn't make errors in grammar, I
don't think. For the nay sayers, though, I think it was just a way
of dismissing something that didn't fit into one's framework -- the
video game thing.
I'm not really in sync with the movement, but there is an article on
the Taking Children Seriously site by the physicist David D (can't
recall spelling) about computer games, that is worth reading. He
basically says that people see that kids like something, in this
instance computer games, and they immediately set out to prove that
it is bad. He thinks that they never have any real evidence, but
that they already determine ahead of time that the thing (whatever
it is) that kids like is bad and they just bring a bunch of semi-
evidence together to try to prove their point. But that the truth
is, the fact that the kids like it so much is what is bothering them
in the first place. It just doesn't sit well with them type thing.
Good article, anyway.
Cindy
Cindy
Shyrley
"cindyjsowers " wrote:
don't assign any problems to TV in itself. Problems develop when human interaction is missing from the rest of the child's life.
Pop news shows then take bits of studies and come up with fearsome headlines 'TV STOPS BRAIN DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!!!!' etc when if you read the research it turns out that there is a statistical correlation
between low achievemnt and hours of TV watched in *some* families. Further reading of the study usually reveals that those families are ones where the child is left with the electronic babysitter and
rarely spoken too or read too.
It's also a long leap to then say TV affects actual neural development, especially since we can't really know that 100% without examining the brain itself. And thats unethical.
100 years ago there was an outcry against women learning cos it would 'affect their brains, make them man-like and shrivel their uterus's'
uh-huh.
Basically, don't believe everything you read in a book. It's been sold with an agenda. I mean, how many would he have sold if he'd written 'Hey parents, you're all doing great and I'm not going to make
you feel guilty.'
Shyrley
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:Well, keeping a keen eye on neurological research as I do, I've never seen his name in any journal. While not all aspects of brain development are understood those studies which have been done properly
> >
> > As a responsible parent, you should look at more than one person's
> evidence.
> > There are two anti-TV books >
>
> I can't speak for the person who originally posted that t.v.
> was "known" to change the workings of the brain, but I think that
> many people who are doing attachment parenting and are in sync with
> that way of thinking at some point read Joseph Chilton Pearce who
> really goes off in a big way on t.v. I think he had two books after
> the Magical Child book that really went into detail about the horror
> of t.v. and how everyone was going to end up stupid and it should be
> absolutely avoided. Basically, that the brain couldn't develop
> correctly, that you would be skipping all sorts of developmental
> stages and then, once that time was up, poof, you were wrecked.
> It's a little like the Waldorf way of thinking about stages
> of "incarnation" or whatever. I also think that Holt plugged
> Pearce's book, and you might get to the Magical Child through John
> Holt as well. I read the Magical Child and the one after that,
> something like Evolution's End (?) and they stuck with me a long
> time, because they were so fatalistic in many ways. Extremely
> scary, if you took them to heart. I think some of his ideas may
> come into my head when my own children are in front of the t.v., as
> well, and it is hard to shake. I would have to go back and look at
> his specific wording and documentation, but I think for many people,
> these books may have left traces of fear and horror. I did premed
> in college, but I can't remember much of it and don't really know
> how the neurons form and what not (Shyrley?). I'm not that
> compelled to look it up. My children, well, mostly the older one
> (4) does watch some t.v., and right now when we have just moved to
> Vermont in the midst of the coldest winter I've ever experienced, we
> have it on for a couple hours a day, which is way more than we are
> used to (we are used to going outside all winter and messing around
> in puddles in Seattle -- here it is below zero most days and windy,
> and you start gasping when you are outside for more than 10
> minutes). We have plenty of things to do here, in terms of books
> and art projects and toys and games, but then we get tired and the
> t.v. comes on so we can just lay around and veg really.
>
> I don't think that Joseph Chilton Pearce knows that much about
> everything (he is not a science expert that I am aware of), but I
> don't know for sure. Can someone just tell me he is full of it
> please?
>
> Cindy
>
don't assign any problems to TV in itself. Problems develop when human interaction is missing from the rest of the child's life.
Pop news shows then take bits of studies and come up with fearsome headlines 'TV STOPS BRAIN DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!!!!' etc when if you read the research it turns out that there is a statistical correlation
between low achievemnt and hours of TV watched in *some* families. Further reading of the study usually reveals that those families are ones where the child is left with the electronic babysitter and
rarely spoken too or read too.
It's also a long leap to then say TV affects actual neural development, especially since we can't really know that 100% without examining the brain itself. And thats unethical.
100 years ago there was an outcry against women learning cos it would 'affect their brains, make them man-like and shrivel their uterus's'
uh-huh.
Basically, don't believe everything you read in a book. It's been sold with an agenda. I mean, how many would he have sold if he'd written 'Hey parents, you're all doing great and I'm not going to make
you feel guilty.'
Shyrley
Fetteroll
on 1/31/03 8:50 AM, Christine Helms at KindredSpiritsYoga@... wrote:
unschooled kids with no limits? Theories are great, but if they don't
describe what happens in reality, then how great are they really?
Here we have a bunch of families that don't limit TV but haven't seen the
negative effects everyone predicts will happen. Kids who aren't limited
treat TV a lot like they treat books. It's a resource. And like books, some
like it more than others.
One thing it's helpful to keep in mind when reading reasearch about kids is
that all studies are based on schooled kids. Kids who watch TV after school
are watching it for different reasons than unschooled kids who have free
access. Schooled kids often watch TV as down time from the pressures of
school.
School comes at a huge emotional and time cost. There's not just the time
spent there, but the time spent getting ready, time spent doing homework,
time spent recovering. That doesn't leave a lot of time for them to do other
more creative things. Not to mention reconnecting with their families.
Hhow many adults come home from work ready engage in activities that are
creative or could spark creativity? Is it blamed on TV? Or is it seen
clearly as a result of work?
Joyce
> There are much more than 2 books out there on tv is bad. and i did read JaneBut the question is how does the research stack up against real live
> Healy's book. I don't beleive i stated in my post the amount of research i
> have been doing on the effects of tv, but it's been ongoing for the past 5
> years, since my first was born. From your response i'm getting the feeel
> that the responsible parent comment hit a nerve.
unschooled kids with no limits? Theories are great, but if they don't
describe what happens in reality, then how great are they really?
Here we have a bunch of families that don't limit TV but haven't seen the
negative effects everyone predicts will happen. Kids who aren't limited
treat TV a lot like they treat books. It's a resource. And like books, some
like it more than others.
One thing it's helpful to keep in mind when reading reasearch about kids is
that all studies are based on schooled kids. Kids who watch TV after school
are watching it for different reasons than unschooled kids who have free
access. Schooled kids often watch TV as down time from the pressures of
school.
School comes at a huge emotional and time cost. There's not just the time
spent there, but the time spent getting ready, time spent doing homework,
time spent recovering. That doesn't leave a lot of time for them to do other
more creative things. Not to mention reconnecting with their families.
Hhow many adults come home from work ready engage in activities that are
creative or could spark creativity? Is it blamed on TV? Or is it seen
clearly as a result of work?
Joyce
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Shyrley
<shyrley.williams@v...> wrote:
he'd written 'Hey parents, you're all doing great and I'm not going
to make
And did you know that in Jane Austen's time the novel was
considered a dreadful source of rubbish not fit for the educated?
Her novel Northanger Abbey makes lots of allusions to this fact.
People had to hide that they enjoyed reading fiction! Reminds
me of our current television debate.
My prediction is that TV will stop being considered dangerous
after couple hundred years go by and we find something else to
harp on.
Since we've stopped being TV paranoid, I've been amazed at
how much *I've* learned by watching TV again.
Julie B
<shyrley.williams@v...> wrote:
>sold with an agenda. I mean, how many would he have sold if
> Basically, don't believe everything you read in a book. It's been
he'd written 'Hey parents, you're all doing great and I'm not going
to make
> you feel guilty.'Shyrley, I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy your posts. :)
And did you know that in Jane Austen's time the novel was
considered a dreadful source of rubbish not fit for the educated?
Her novel Northanger Abbey makes lots of allusions to this fact.
People had to hide that they enjoyed reading fiction! Reminds
me of our current television debate.
My prediction is that TV will stop being considered dangerous
after couple hundred years go by and we find something else to
harp on.
Since we've stopped being TV paranoid, I've been amazed at
how much *I've* learned by watching TV again.
Julie B