[email protected]

>Or is it because he has a fear (maybe instilled by
>you or someone else?) of "Oh my gosh, I have to figure out a career
>that I want to pursue, and I like computers so I guess it should be
>computers, and I need college for computers, and I need math for
>college...So gosh, I better make myself get through this really hard
>class?"

This sounds almost like the freak out my son had last week. He's taking a
welding class at a tech school. He has both high school students and
adults in class with him. One of the adult students was telling him about
how he tried to start several businesses but they all failed " because he
doesn't have a high school diploma". He also "can't get a job" for the
same reason.
My son freaked because now he'll "end up on welfare" since I didn't force
him to go to school where "they would have forced him to learn math" and
he "could be going to school now and getting a diploma if he had the
confidence that he could keep up with the high school level classes".
He also told me he believes that if you don't learn stuff by the time
you're 11 you'll never get it.
After talking a while to find out what brought on this math attack he
told me he was upset because his shop teacher was trying to figure out
how they were going to complete 140 credit hours in 44 days at 2 1/2
hours a day. Another student did the math instantly while my son had to
think about it. My fault! He doesn't want to have to think about it. He
wants to be able to do the math instantly. I told him that the other guy
probably does math every day, and if he had to do it every day he be
quicker too.
I found a book I used to try to get him to work out of years ago called
Math for Smartypants and read him a couple of examples of math geniuses
that could do awesome calculations almost instantly in their heads. One
was a young kid that supposedly lost his abilities as he grew older and
learned other stuff. I guess he had to clear out space to store more
info.
He's been working on math on his own when I haven't been looking he told
me. I found him some stuff to work on and watched him get frustrated.
Brought back memories( or should I say nightmares) of before I discovered
unschooling. I told him not to do it if it was that painful, maybe he's
just not a math kinda guy. If he wants to start a business maybe he could
hire a bookkeeper. I gave him the example of the last part time job I
had. I managed the office at a gymnastics school because the guy who
owned it enjoyed coaching but hated the office part of the business.
Today I told my son if he wants a diploma I'd print him one up on the
computer. He liked that.
I 'm still worried about him and his fears, it's not good to be thinking
like this at his age.
Somebody tell me something good. Is there a list of not so famous
homeschoolers that aren't on welfare? The famous list doesn't do it for
him.

Sharon

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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 12:58:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sluror@... writes:
> . One of the adult students was telling him about
> how he tried to start several businesses but they all failed " because he
> doesn't have a high school diploma". He also "can't get a job" for the
> same reason.

Well, take it from someone who HAS started MANY businesses, you NEVER need a
diploma to start a business. His businesses failed because he's a poor
businessman! I'm guessing he can't get a job because of some other factor.
That's ridiculous! Your son is taking THIS man at his word???

> My son freaked because now he'll "end up on welfare" since I didn't force
> him to go to school where "they would have forced him to learn math" and
> he "could be going to school now and getting a diploma if he had the
> confidence that he could keep up with the high school level classes".

If he ends up on welfare, that's HIS fault, not yours. Just as if I end up on
welfare, it's MY fault, not my parents'. Besides, I could always move back in
with them if it ever approached any where near that point. I'm guessing the
same with him. "On welfare"---bad example!


> He also told me he believes that if you don't learn stuff by the time
> you're 11 you'll never get it.

OK, tell him I said that was about the STUPIDEST thing I've EVER heard.
REALLY! Tell him to go back and THINK about THAT one again!

> After talking a while to find out what brought on this math attack he
> told me he was upset because his shop teacher was trying to figure out
> how they were going to complete 140 credit hours in 44 days at 2 1/2
> hours a day. Another student did the math instantly while my son had to
> think about it.

OK. I didn't even bother to THINK about it as I read it. Now I'll think
(Joyce probably figured it out before the end of the sentence!!!<G>): 44
days. Two hours a day---88 hours. add another 1/2 hour/day 22 hours.
UMMMM---110 hours. Nope it won't work. They'll have to put in more time,
maybe a coupla' extra Saturdays.

I bet I spent JUST as many hours in math class as Joyce. It's her LOVE. It's
my struggle. Is it possible for me to do math? Sometimes. (Hell, that example
may be totally wrong---but that's why I ask Joyce! <BWGGG>

My fault! He doesn't want to have to think about it. He
> wants to be able to do the math instantly. I told him that the other guy
> probably does math every day, and if he had to do it every day he be
> quicker too.


Maybe. Maybe NOT. Some of us have to think harder on it because it's not
*there*. My husband's a math-wiz. Handy for me!

> If he wants to start a business maybe he could
> hire a bookkeeper. I gave him the example of the last part time job I
> had. I managed the office at a gymnastics school because the guy who
> owned it enjoyed coaching but hated the office part of the business.


Bookkeepers are great. If you can't afford one, marry one! <G> (Although
sometimes THAT kind can be more costly! <G> Many ways around a problem. Step
OUT of the box!


> Today I told my son if he wants a diploma I'd print him one up on the
> computer. He liked that.
> I 'm still worried about him and his fears, it's not good to be thinking
> like this at his age.
> Somebody tell me something good. Is there a list of not so famous
> homeschoolers that aren't on welfare? The famous list doesn't do it for
> him.

I have a high schol diploma--- lotta' good it's done me. It's in a scrapbook.
Been there since I received it! I did go to college. LOTS of them: Cornell.
Virginia Tech. Wofford College. U of South Carolina. U of Vienna, Austria
through Central College of Pella, Iowa. Nope. No degree. But I learned A LOT.
But NOT in class!!

I've started a tack shop, a provincial French restaurant, three dogs grooming
businesses (one in Germany, one mobile). I've put on one successful
unschooling conference and am working on my second. I'm designing our next
house and barn (round). I'll be in charge of the new farm and its breeding
operation as well as its upkeep. I'm an unschooling mom (how many of you
HAVEN'T heard, "Oh, I could NEVER do THAT!"?)

It has NOTHING to do with a piece of paper or a math class. It has EVERYTHING
to do with WANTING to do something.

Tell him to call me. 803 776 4849. His nickel, but I'll be happy to tell him
options. Feeling sorry for himself because his mom didn't make him do math is
NOT one of them!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 1/29/03 8:28 AM, kbcdlovejo@... at kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> (Joyce probably figured it out before the end of the sentence!!!<G>)

Joyce is no good at arithmetic. She's great at math though :-)

I can set problems up. Getting the numbers to work themselves out properly
is iffy though ;-)

Joyce

Heidi <[email protected]>

" because he
> > doesn't have a high school diploma". He also "can't get a job"
for the
> > same reason.


> I have a high schol diploma--- lotta' good it's done me. It's in a
scrapbook.
> Been there since I received it!


> It has NOTHING to do with a piece of paper or a math class. It has
EVERYTHING
> to do with WANTING to do something.




Hey

I've been reading Benjamin Franklin's autobiography. Heh. First, let
me say I WAS WRONG, about Ben anyway. Back when I first started
posting here, I boldly asserted that the Founding Fathers all had
strict, scheduled courses of learning to follow, as directed by their
parents or tutors. WRONG! B. Franklin was totally self-educated,
except his momma taught him to read, and one year of grammar school.

Now, back to that diploma thing. His father, seeing how quickly and
early he learned to read, thought he might make a good scholar, and
so enrolled him in grammar school at age eight. He made head of class
in one year, but because of money concerns, AND BECAUSE [quote] "the
mean living many so educated were afterwards able to obtain" [/quote]
his father withdrew Benjamin from the school.

Hmm, back in colonial days, a course of higher education often meant
no great improvement in the capacity to earn a living? Really? Sort
of like my hubby's comments "Look at how many people with college
degrees are flipping burgers at McDonald's" L

I'll tell you what Mr. Franklin attributes his huge success to,
though: Hard Work. His fortune was made in the printing trade, and
many customers were recommended to him in his first year of business,
because he had a reputation of being a worker. He gained a reputation
as a man good with words, because at age 12, he set out on a course
to improve his style. Not becuase a teacher told hiim to, but because
he wanted to improve his writing style. And then he diligently
pursued that goal, working hard to refine his writing. He also worked
hard his whole life at improving his moral behavior.

He never was any good at math.

I'm learning lots from Ben. Franklin, I must say.

peace, Heidi

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a...
wrote:

>
> I have a high schol diploma--- lotta' good it's done me. It's in a
scrapbook.
> Been there since I received it! I did go to college. LOTS of them:
Cornell.
> Virginia Tech. Wofford College. U of South Carolina. U of
Vienna, Austria
> through Central College of Pella, Iowa. Nope. No degree. But I
learned A LOT.
> But NOT in class!!
>
> I've started a tack shop, a provincial French restaurant, three
dogs grooming
> businesses (one in Germany, one mobile). I've put on one
successful
> unschooling conference and am working on my second. I'm
designing our next
> house and barn (round). I'll be in charge of the new farm and
its breeding
> operation as well as its upkeep. I'm an unschooling mom (how
many of you
> HAVEN'T heard, "Oh, I could NEVER do THAT!"?)

Piggy-backing on this (I so totally agree):

I have a HS diploma and a Bachelor's from UCLA in history.
Here's my work record:

I have worked as an editor of Ph.D. theses, have been a senior
editor for a magazine (over three years), have ghost-written two
books for the founder of a major denomination, have edited two
collections of articles for two published books, am contributing
editor to another magazine and have started my own"teaching
writing" business that is growing and shows no sign of stopping.
NOT ONCE has any of my employers or clients asked, "Do you
have a degree?" (This always amazes me actually.)

In fact, most people just laugh when I tell them that I majored in
history—WTH has that got to do with writing? :)

One of the things I've noticed is that guys who feel trapped by
lower wages for not having completed college or high school are
usually people who didn't become invested in themselves until
they had already tied themselves down with family
responsiblities.

My brother (now 40) is unmarried and never went to college. He
has an incredibly successful business now. But he went through
some pretty lean years to get there. Since he was unmarried, he
could live that way guilt free.

I think guys who feel trapped often were into family life and didn't
find out who they were or how they could make it.

For unschooled kids, my hope is that they will know enough of
who they are to be able to dig in to that field and not stammer
around "looking for a job."

Julie B

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

> In a message dated 1/29/2003 12:58:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> sluror@j... writes:
> > My son freaked because now he'll "end up on welfare" since I
didn't force
> > him to go to school where "they would have forced him to learn
math" and
> > he "could be going to school now and getting a diploma if he had
the
> > confidence that he could keep up with the high school level
classes".
<snip>
> My fault! He doesn't want to have to think about it. He
> > wants to be able to do the math instantly. I told him that the
other guy
> > probably does math every day, and if he had to do it every day he
be
> > quicker too.


You can tell him that when my DH started his business and started
playing the stock market, I had to sit down and teach him how to do
fractions and decimals, and all sorts of stuff. He had always
been "bad at math" in school, and didn't graduate from high school
(though he did go back later and get a GED I think). But when he had
a passionate interest and reason to learn the math, he got it very
quickly. When we lived in Seattle, he started his own business
cleaning airplanes, and quickly took it to an extremely successful
enterprise with several employees. By the time we left, 3 years
later, he was turning customers down, he had too many.

OTOH, I'm quite good at math, and went up through Calculus with ease.
However, I didn't retain much of it because I don't use it on a daily
basis. If I had to work a differential equation now, I'd have to get
down a book just to remember what the heck it really is. I can still
multiply and divide in my head easily, but that always came easily to
me. For some folks it will, some folks it will come with lots of
practice, and some folks, even successful businessmen like my DH,
will pull out a calculator! :-)

John Holt, in one of his books - maybe How Kids Learn, or Learning
All The Time - had some fun ideas for how to improve math skills. If
your son is interested in improving, he might try some of those. My
son really likes math and is always begging me to buy him workbooks.
They sell them at places like Rite-Aid and have them in various grade
levels, that might be another option if he just wants to practice
basic skills, and I'm sure I've heard of CD-Roms like MathBlasters
and such that could be fun if a kid wanted to mess around with them.
There's lots of ways to improve math skills, if that's your son's
goal. If not, there is no limit to what age he could be when he does
decide that he needs the skills. If my DH can learn to multiply
fractions at 32, then learning obviously doesn't stop at 11!

I really hate the mainstream thinking that says there's a certain age
one must learn things by and after that, all is useless. I just
learned last year to write fiction, and wrote a novel. Before age 35,
I had no idea I would even *want* to do such a thing, let alone be
capable of it. What age was Grandma Moses when she started painting,
anyway? I did once see a website about "late bloomers" that listed
various famous people and the ages that they'd started practicing
their trade, and it was really interesting. Definitely pointed out
that any age can be right to grab a passion and go with it. There's
no such thing as too late.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

Have a Nice Day!

One of the things I've noticed is that guys who feel trapped by
lower wages for not having completed college or high school are
usually people who didn't become invested in themselves until
they had already tied themselves down with family
responsiblities.<<<


Gonna second this. I was lucky. I finished nursing school before I got pregnant. I have a good paying job in a very flexible field where the demand for nurses is currently high. My job allows me to work minimal hours and enjoy the rest of my life doing what I want on the side. My husband finished high school and has a laborers job. (Its a great job, but it would not support us without my additional income).

Had I gotten pregnant a few months earlier, things could be A LOT different.

I have told my kids OFTEN that they can do whatever they want in their lives, and they can learn whatever they need to when they need it BUT if they have a family before they are ready, it could really throw a monkey wrench in things :o).

And its my hope that my kids will have such high self esteem and enough common sense that they will not feel the need to jump into anything for the wrong reasons.

Kristen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

regan

Random anecdote: My college had a math requirement (for graduation) that
could be satisfied by:

A. Taking two math classes, or
B. Taking two communications classes and two art classes

I never understood this variation, and moreover often wondered: since I was
a communications major with a concentration in art, did that make me a math
major as well?

And to make my post relevant: Offhand I can only think of 3 people I know
who haven't had ANY experience in college. They are: an engineer for Amtrak
(making $100K a year), a record producer in NYC (earns $75/hour and has
worked with Vitamin C and Bjork), and a television producer at Lifetime.
The list of people I know who have no high school credentials but went on to
college is too long to even get into here.


Cheers,
Regan



In a message dated 1/29/2003 12:58:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> . One of the adult students was telling him about
>> how he tried to start several businesses but they all failed " because he
>> doesn't have a high school diploma". He also "can't get a job" for the
>> same reason.
>
> Well, take it from someone who HAS started MANY businesses, you NEVER need a
> diploma to start a business. His businesses failed because he's a poor
> businessman! I'm guessing he can't get a job because of some other factor.
> That's ridiculous! Your son is taking THIS man at his word???
==========================================================

Shyrley

regan wrote:

> Random anecdote: My college had a math requirement (for graduation) that
> could be satisfied by:
>
> A. Taking two math classes, or
> B. Taking two communications classes and two art classes
>
> I never understood this variation, and moreover often wondered: since I was
> a communications major with a concentration in art, did that make me a math
> major as well?
>

Why would a university make you take courses that were irrelevant to your degree?
It would be like my neuroscience degree asking for a couple of courses in fine art and English litereature!

Shyrley

Shyrley

DanickeHouse wrote:

> <<Why would a university make you take courses that were irrelevant to your
> degree?>>
>
> Money! I had to take Spanish to fulfill a foreign language requirement, and
> also Arts and Humanities classes. My major was in Nutrition and Dietetics.
>
> But at $96/credit hour, they were making big money requiring me to take
> classes I didn't need.
>
> Liz

Thats disgusting. Especially as people have to take out loans to cover these fees. The UK is heading that way too, although you still only take the courses needed to major in your subject. I think if
you're feeling like it you can take extra's but they are irrelevant to your degree.

Shyrley

cindyjsowers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Shyrley
<shyrley.williams@v...> wrote:

>
> Thats disgusting. Especially as people have to take out loans to
cover these fees. The UK is heading that way too, although you
still only take the courses needed to major in your subject. I
think if
> you're feeling like it you can take extra's but they are
irrelevant to your degree.
>

I think also it is under the guise of a "well-rounded education" --
the whole liberal arts thing. You end up knowing a little about a
lot, but in my case it was nothing about everything. It had the
effect, on me, of just taking a course, going through the motions,
trying to get a decent grade, so I could get onto something else. I
was never told I could take something interesting right off the bat,
and because I was so used to the whole system, from an early age, I
never even thought to ask. Now isn't THAT pathetic. My money,
their rules really. Not much different than the whole American
attitude about education, I think. Just more of the same. Only now
you have to pay a lot of money to be there. The "survey" courses
they have freshmans take are sort of broad interest surveys of a
field, supposedly to give you an idea about a particular field of
study. I just thought they were dumb, and a whole lot of them are
required. You can't even get to your major interest until you've
about taken two years of the general stuff that has you half
snoozing most of the time. Maybe they figure if you get enough rest
the first two years you'll be ready to stay up all night looking
into something interesting the last two, but I doubt it. It's just
a huge waste of time and money. They assume that no 18 year old
(usual age to start college) could possibly know what they'd be
interested in studying, and has to therefore look at every
possibility and make a selection. Unfortunately, the selection they
choose from doesn't do much for stirring up the fires or anything.

Cindy

[email protected]

>His businesses failed because he's a poor
>businessman! I'm guessing he can't get a job because of some other
factor.
>That's ridiculous! Your son is taking THIS man at his word???

He got my son thinking, or should I say panicking. I agree and let him
know these are just excuses. My son is no stranger to getting what he
wants. At 15 I think he's already a great "wheeler and dealer" been that
way for years. Remember the Partridge Family? He's like Danny.

>If he ends up on welfare, that's HIS fault, not yours.

I told him if he has a loser attitude and wishes to give up he will
succeed at failing.

>"On welfare"---bad example!

His words, but you know what he means.

>I have a high schol diploma--- lotta' good it's done me. It's in a
scrapbook.
>Been there since I received it! I did go to college. LOTS of them:
Cornell.
>Virginia Tech. Wofford College. U of South Carolina. U of Vienna,
Austria
>through Central College of Pella, Iowa. Nope. No degree. But I learned A
LOT.
>But NOT in class!!

The local news troubleshooter just got his dog a college degree. He's the
proud owner of a veterinarian pup.

>Tell him to call me.

Thanks,
Sharon

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Kelly Lenhart

I worked for 11 years in a Graduate Business Library at a "major"
university. -grin- This place turned out MBA's in eleven months so they
were all stressed to the gills.

One day one of the administrators of the school came down and wanted me to
do some research for her. Now, I was the only one there, couldn't really do
it that second and didn't make it clear that it wasn't that I wouldn't, but
that it would have to wait. And I did show HER how to do it, if she really
couldn't wait.

She left in a huff and complained which raised all kinds of stinks. -sigh-
Ask me if I miss this place.

Anyway, my supervisor was away and HER supervisor thought this was a big
enough deal to come down and lecture me on my job. (Big mistake on her
part, frankly, but...) She told me that when someone came in looking for
this information, I was to give it to them.

I refused. I said, for the administrator, sure, that was just a
misunderstanding, BUT and this was a big BUT, our job was to teach those
grad students HOW TO FIND THIS INFORMATION THEMSELVES. That was the whole
point of the bloody MBA. If they walked out of there learning only to call
the library and not: what the resources where, which ones were best and why,
and how to find the info if it wasn't already in some easy format then what
was the point.

I stood my ground and she seemed to understand.

But for me, this was a huge realization about LEARNING. Getting the grade,
getting the degree, etc is meaningless without the actual knowledge. My
husband is an amazing intuitive programer. He understands computers in a
way I will never ever get. He didn't get a college degree, instead his
knowledge is based on actually using the machines on a daily (sometimes 24
hours a day) basis. I gave up any interest in finishing my degree around
the time of that incident. Instead I devoted myself to improving my craft
(writing) in a more meaningful way---actually writing.

As so many have said--if college is your goal, there are ways to do it that
aren't "standard." If a well paying, stable career is your goal--there are
ways to do it.

Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 2:00:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kevin.tucker@... writes:


> > (Joyce probably figured it out before the end of the sentence!!!<G>)
>
> Joyce is no good at arithmetic. She's great at math though :-)
>
> I can set problems up. Getting the numbers to work themselves out properly
> is iffy though ;-)
>
> Joyce
> >>
>
> But that's what calculators and computers are for!
>
>

OK. I'm guessing that my calculations were right, no matter how long it took
me, 'cause no one has corrected my math! <G>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/03 6:29:56 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< I have a high schol diploma--- lotta' good it's done me. >>

I have a miniature one, too that they gave us all. Laminated. I forget
whose advertising is on the back. A mortuary, I think.

I've used that one a few times (year back; I'm not carrying it around
anymore, but I DID!)

In New Mexico, Epanola is that town about which all the jokes are made, and
it's like the cartoon, charicature, ignorant violent little town. It might
not be fair (I can name several towns way worse, but without the character to
even make jokes about, which might be the deal), but the reality is real. <g>

So... Sometimes I would know someone a while and when they finally asked
where I was from and I said "Espanola," they would get a slack-faced look
like they were waiting to see if I was joking, and say "No you're not."
(Because if I was it messed up their Espanola prejudice.) So I would MERRILY
whip out my Espanola High School miniature laminated diploma. It was fun.

But the real one nobody's ever asked to see. And my college degree
piece-of-paper-in-folder, never shown it to anyone.

Here, about degrees, for some state jobs you have to have a degree. They
don't care WHAT degree, just a BA or a BS degree. Sometimes the jobs require
NOTHING learned in college, it's just basically a culling process. You've
proven you had the dull patience to live through four years or more of
college, so maybe you'll be passive and cooperative enough to work for the
state.

So if a kid is convinced he needs a college degree, have him go for something
interesting, entertaining, joyous.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 2:53:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, mina@...
writes:

> As so many have said--if college is your goal, there are ways to do it that
> aren't "standard." If a well paying, stable career is your goal--there are
> ways to do it.
>
> Kelly
>

Y'all, there are FOUR Kelly/Kelli s here. Hmmmmm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 3:24:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> Here, about degrees, for some state jobs you have to have a degree. They
> don't care WHAT degree, just a BA or a BS degree. Sometimes the jobs
> require
> NOTHING learned in college, it's just basically a culling process. You've
> proven you had the dull patience to live through four years or more of
> college, so maybe you'll be passive and cooperative enough to work for the
> state.
>

AAAAAHHHHH! Now THAT makes sense!!!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> It's just
>a huge waste of time and money. They assume that no 18 year old
>(usual age to start college) could possibly know what they'd be
>interested in studying,

I hated school so much I had the "just do the time and get it over with
attitude" my senior year at high school. I disappointed my parents by not
attending college, not to upset them but I really felt it would be a
waste of $. My older sisters all went, maybe they had a plan but I
didn't. After my 3rd child was born I was ready to go back to school, but
on my terms. I only took the fun classes like: drawing, photography,
stained glass, computer animation. Money well spent.

Sharon

________________________________________________________________
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Betsy

**

Here, about degrees, for some state jobs you have to have a degree.
They
don't care WHAT degree, just a BA or a BS degree. Sometimes the jobs
require
NOTHING learned in college, it's just basically a culling process.
You've
proven you had the dull patience to live through four years or more of
college, so maybe you'll be passive and cooperative enough to work for
the
state.**

I think it isn't even intended to prove that one is "smart", just that
one is docile and house-broken. (Which is exactly what you said. I agree.)

Betsy

callymom2000 <scenichillhomeschool@hotma

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
>>>> So if a kid is convinced he needs a college degree, have him go
for something
> interesting, entertaining, joyous. <<<<<


Absolutely, I totally agree with this, because anything other than
what you love and what gives you joy is just BS. <g>

Cally

Mary Bianco

Just today Tara came home from school wanting some advice. They got their
papers to fill out for next year, her last, as to what classes they want to
take. She has all her science requirements now but thought an added science
class would look good to a college. If she chooses to take another science,
for her it would have to be physics as she's taking advanced chemistry this
year. Well I know Tara and I know physics and I'm thinking to myself, this
will really be hard one for her to take. Plus she's only thinking of it
because of what her friend told her colleges look at. She doesn't really
WANT to take it. She's already taking other classes that are extra that she
said will "look good" for her. She wants to go to college for business, so
why physicas, right? So after some talking and discussing, she has decided
to take an extra business course next year instead. I'm glad she came to
this decision. Makes no sense to take something she doesn't like and that
will cause her to make her last year a tough one. I think she should just
come home and party, but what do I know??

Mary B





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[email protected]

**After talking a while to find out what brought on this math attack he

told me he was upset because his shop teacher was trying to figure out

how they were going to complete 140 credit hours in 44 days at 2 1/2

hours a day. Another student did the math instantly while my son had to

think about it. My fault! He doesn't want to have to think about it. He

wants to be able to do the math instantly. I told him that the other guy

probably does math every day, and if he had to do it every day he be

quicker too.**

Nope. :) If that were true the shop teacher would've been the first one to
the answer, not the other student. The truth is, if your son wants to be able
to do math instantly, he probably needs to be reincarnated with a different
brain. :) It's got nothing to do with how often you work with it or how hard
you try or any of that. Some people can do it. Some can't. Some need paper to
organize their thoughts, others can do it in their heads. Of those who can do
arithematic in their heads with ease, some can do it instantly and most need
a few seconds.

He can probably learn to be more comfortable with math if he wants to try it,
but he shouldn't expect to change his brain type. He should try taking an end
run around his fears by playing around with math in new ways.

**I 'm still worried about him and his fears, it's not good to be thinking
like this at his age.**

It's a fearful time. MOST teens get scared about how they're going to manage
on their own. It's not specific to unschooled kids. Not all parents get to
hear about them, though. It depends how much the kids trust them.

You support them in figuring it out, thinking about it, deciding what the
fears mean and what to do about them, what plan they might want to follow.
Don't let them abuse you in their fear. If you ARE guilty of something,
accept the responsibility, but you're probably not.

Deborah in IL

[email protected]

>I told him that the other guy

probably does math every day, and if he had to do it every day he be

quicker too.**

Nope. :) If that were true the shop teacher would've been the first one
to
the answer, not the other student. <

How do you figure?

>He can probably learn to be more comfortable with math if he wants to
try it,
but he shouldn't expect to change his brain type. He should try taking an
end
run around his fears by playing around with math in new ways.<

He can do consumer math when he wants to buy something. He can figure out
percentages when it comes to taxes and sale prices. He knows a deal when
comparing prices and quantities. It seems he freezes up only under
pressure, school kinda stuff. This, now that I'm really thinking about
it, could be a war wound from back when I tried to force him to "do
math". Did I scar him for life? I gave him a math puzzle the other day
when he asked for some stuff to practice with. He ended up scribbling
curses across the paper. I seriously think he's got a mental block when
it comes to paper math. I asked him not to finish it because it hurt to
see him get frustrated. I ended up doing it with him and it turned out
ok, it even seemed like he enjoyed it then.

>It's a fearful time. MOST teens get scared about how they're going to
manage
on their own. It's not specific to unschooled kids. Not all parents get
to
hear about them, though. It depends how much the kids trust them. <

When I was his age that was the farthest thing from my mind. Then again
there wasn't to much in my mind and I didn't talk to my parents. I'm glad
my kids like me, and love that they talk to me.

>If you ARE guilty of something,
accept the responsibility, but you're probably not.<

I AM guilty. It's probably my fault he doesn't like doing math. I so
believed in unschooling for many years but living in PA up until 3 yrs
ago I felt like a wannabe. I needed to keep a portfolio with samples of
"school" work to show the SD each year. Every subject but math and
writing were easy to deal with. We made a game of it, it was like a
yearlong scavenger hunt to find fluffy educational looking stuff to stick
in it. I took zillions of pictures of all the cool stuff we did and
picked up pamphlets at all the places we visited. Math and writing were
the evil subjects though. I swear I tried to make it fun but besides
pictures of the kids doing stuff like measuring, building, and shopping,
I needed paper work. I figured out how to minimalize the "have to" work
but the damage was still done. They didn't like to do it but they did it
anyway. I told them it had to be done for the damn book. Maybe my
negative attitude made it worst or maybe the fact they weren't enjoying
it gave me a negative attitude but it sucked either way. BTW none of my
children like paperwork. Then again many adults don't like paperwork so
maybe it's normal.

Sharon


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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/03 8:09:56 AM, julie@... writes:

<< have ghost-written two

books for the founder of a major denomination, >>

There's a major denomination with a still-living founder?

Are they cloning babies?

(I guess you can't tell us too much or we'll know that even though he/she/it
can form a church, it/he/she can't write for she/he/it!)

Sandra

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/29/03 8:09:56 AM, julie@b... writes:
>
> << have ghost-written two
>
> books for the founder of a major denomination, >>
>
> There's a major denomination with a still-living founder?
>
> Are they cloning babies?
>
> (I guess you can't tell us too much or we'll know that even
though he/she/it
> can form a church, it/he/she can't write for she/he/it!)
>
> Sandra

LOL. I certainly don't want you to look up that work either since it
was at the beginning of my writing career and while it passed
muster, it's not my favorite work either. <bwg>

Actually, the founder is now dead and the denom is not really
major (I was standing in the shower laughing later that night
thinking, why did I say that? That's because in our evangelical
world, it was an international movement that really felt major. It's
been profiled on the news, 60 minutes and other places...). so
for the curious: I wrote for John Wimber of the Vineyard.

And he couldn't write worth beans. He used to joke abut it like
this: "I wrote that book about as much as I've written any book
which is to say Julie wrote that book."

Julie B

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:

P.S. I should mention that I'm listed as the editor. And my
husband at the time was the project overseer. :)

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/03 4:15:55 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< I think it isn't even intended to prove that one is "smart", just that
one is docile and house-broken. (Which is exactly what you said. I agree.)
>>

Especially since they don't ask what your grade-point average was! <bwg>
(Not that grade points prove intelligence. I had a 3.0 when I graduated, I
think, and that's because I went from being baffled and then goofing around
to getting a 4.0. But the curve/path/progress doesn't show. Someone who
started off with a 4.0 and ended up sliding into a drug and booze gutter
could have the same 3.0.)

Sandra

[email protected]

I said **Nope. :) If that were true the shop teacher would've been the first
one to the answer, not the other student.**

And Sharon asks **How do you figure?**

It was the shop teacher trying to figure it out, wasn't it? It didn't sound
like he was throwing it out as a problem for the students, he needed to know
it himself and those two students happened to be there at the time. Anyway, a
shop teacher has real life uses for arithematic every working day -
measurements, tolerances, dimensions - if it came faster just from use he
wouldn't have needed the students help. It probably is far from the first
time he's needed to figure out credit hours, either.

**It seems he freezes up only under pressure, school kinda stuff. This, now
that I'm really thinking about it, could be a war wound from back when I
tried to force him to "do math". Did I scar him for life? I gave him a math
puzzle the other day when he asked for some stuff to practice with. He ended
up scribbling curses across the paper. I seriously think he's got a mental
block when it comes to paper math. I asked him not to finish it because it
hurt to see him get frustrated. I ended up doing it with him and it turned out

ok, it even seemed like he enjoyed it then.**

My oldest son was in school for 6 years. He's the reason none of his younger
siblings went to school. (Well, my 18yo is taking community college classes
now, but they don't count as school. Another topic. <g>) Anyway... when I
took him out of school it was so I could stop fighting with him over math. I
recognize your scenario there. Did you scar him for life? Maybe. The
question is, now what? You point out what he can do. You point out later
when he's done okay on some arithematic thing without getting frustrated. You
help him figure out how to avoid letting the "math phobic screaming paranoid"
loose in his head. :=) You do more of those puzzles with him and don't ever
hand him one to do alone again for awhile. I'll think of more, eventually.

**It's a fearful time. MOST teens get scared about how they're going to
manage on their own. It's not specific to unschooled kids. Not all parents
get to hear about them, though. It depends how much the kids trust them.**


**When I was his age that was the farthest thing from my mind. Then again
there wasn't to much in my mind and I didn't talk to my parents. I'm glad my
kids like me, and love that they talk to me.**

:) Yeah. It's interesting, I get to hear not only my own kid's fears, but
those of a lot of the teens she interacts with. She processes a lot of
conversations for herself by going over them with me later. Most of her local
friends and aquaintances are always-schooled. Lately I hear a lot about
college. Kids who can't imagine not going to college because they don't know
who they are outside of their student role. Kids who have to go to college or
move out and be on their own, no support of any kind for any other path. Kids
who are searching for colleges as far from home as they can get. It's sad
that I'm not hearing about a single one who's excited about going to college
for what they can learn there. Another interesting thing - she's getting a
hard time from some of those same kids because her plans don't include
college right now - not in the four years get a degree way, she's taking
classes that interest her, but all of them see that as "different" than going
to college. If she was at the CC with a career plan that would be "going to
college". :)

As for the fears, I was thinking of that not only because of conversations
with my daughter, but because I just finished a book "The Myth of Maturity"
that talks about the fears and needs of kids at the leaving home ages. I
recommend it to anyone thinking their kids would be more confident and secure
if they'd gone to school. :)

Deborah in IL