Alan & Brenda Leonard

> Not if he wants to go into computers. He is interested in music
> techonology or computer gaming (and all the stuff that goes with
> that--design, musical scores, storyboarding) and what we read
> says that four years of math is expected.

I don't know much about the people who program games, but I wonder that he
really even needs to go to college for that.

Music techonology is a facinating field. But my impression was that many
people go directly into the field, generally from connections they've made
someplace. It's one of those fields probably worth a class or two at the
college, part-time, to get some contacts, learn some stuff, and work with
somebody pretty good.

I'd do so serious research before I put all my eggs in the college basket.
But that might be tough to do, especailly if you've pushed your son to work
towards college in the past. Get on the internet and see what you learn.
Talk to the actual people who do this, somewhere.

Anybody know anybody who can advise Julie's son? Heck, I got coins for my
son for Christmas from an English-speaking homeschooler in Indonesia,
through the friend of a person on this list. Somebody surely knows
somebody! Speak up!

brenda

kayb85 <[email protected]>

I wish someone would write a book about how unschoolers can make a
living doing things that interest them without going to college. And
I wish they would write it now, before my kids get any older and I'm
tempted to start worrying. <grin>
Sheila


--- In [email protected], Alan & Brenda Leonard
<abtleo@e...> wrote:
> > Not if he wants to go into computers. He is interested in music
> > techonology or computer gaming (and all the stuff that goes with
> > that--design, musical scores, storyboarding) and what we read
> > says that four years of math is expected.
>
> I don't know much about the people who program games, but I wonder
that he
> really even needs to go to college for that.
>
> Music techonology is a facinating field. But my impression was
that many
> people go directly into the field, generally from connections
they've made
> someplace. It's one of those fields probably worth a class or two
at the
> college, part-time, to get some contacts, learn some stuff, and
work with
> somebody pretty good.
>
> I'd do so serious research before I put all my eggs in the college
basket.
> But that might be tough to do, especailly if you've pushed your son
to work
> towards college in the past. Get on the internet and see what you
learn.
> Talk to the actual people who do this, somewhere.
>
> Anybody know anybody who can advise Julie's son? Heck, I got coins
for my
> son for Christmas from an English-speaking homeschooler in
Indonesia,
> through the friend of a person on this list. Somebody surely knows
> somebody! Speak up!
>
> brenda

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/03 8:42:03 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< I wish someone would write a book about how unschoolers can make a
living doing things that interest them without going to college. >>

Just look around at all the jobs which don't require college, and at all the
high school drop-outs (who didn't glorify their position by saying "I've
decided to homeschool," but just said "I am OUT of here, NOW") and see those
jobs.

A book about unschoolers wouldn't be different from books for those who chose
not to go to college, or who dropped out of high school. We don't need to
separate ourselves from the real world, but to GO there.

There is a book out there, though, called "Do What you Love, and the Money
will Follow." I had a copy, but gave it away. I hope it's still in print.

(googling...) used from 99 cents plus shipping from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440501601/002-4177569-4450413?v

i=glance

and here's the author's website--there are tapes!!

http://www.marshasinetar.com/books.html

Sandra

Kelli Traaseth

Sheila wrote:

**I wish someone would write a book about how unschoolers can make a
living doing things that interest them without going to college. **


Don't you think that just the fact that your children are being unschooled will put them on the right track so it won't even be an issue? I think so! They are ahead of the game this way!

For those of us who weren't raised this way it is a struggle to fathom that, but I'm hoping that my kids will just continue to do what they love and it will turn into that wage earning thing.

Kelli



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

> Not if he wants to go into computers. He is interested in music
> techonology or computer gaming (and all the stuff that goes with
> that--design, musical scores, storyboarding) and what we read
> says that four years of math is expected.


I think for many fields, and the ones above could be included,
college is very overrated. I think about my own passion of
photography, which is what I chose to get my degree in, and how I
could've been better served by not going to college. If you think of
all the money I spent on college, and how little photography
experience I got out of it (because most of that money got spent on
all the other pre-req classse I had to take), I'm sure I could've
taken that same money, got myself a nice Hasselblad medium-format
camera, apprenticed myself to a really good photographer, traveled
around the world, and in 4 years I would've not only been a much
better photographer, I would've made all sorts of connections in the
world of photography, and would've understood how to make a living at
it. As it was, when I graduated, I realized that I didn't have the
portfolio or experience to get a job in photography, but had all
these college loans to pay off, so I ended up using my minor in
Computer Science to go work at Microsoft. I'm not unhappy with how
everything played out, and I really loved college and the whole
experience. I was exposed to all sorts of people and experiences that
I wouldn't have been otherwise. But that doesn't change the fact that
for any given field there might be much more cost-effective (and
better!) ways to learn.

As someone who used to hire in the computer field, I'd say that the
college degree on the resume was what got somebody through HR and to
my desk for an interview, but people came there via other paths as
well - By knowing someone in the group, or having done something
impressive on computers on their own and gotten the attention of
someone. Once they were interviewing with me, I could care less
whether they had a degree at all. What was important was what they
knew, and there were plenty of people I interviewed with CS degrees
that didn't know anything at all! And people without who knew plenty.
So, if a person doesn't have the degree, they might have to commit a
little more time to figuring out how to get in the door in a job like
that, but doing an internship or apprenticeship can help. Or having
done a project that you can show.

BTW, I didn't have 4 years of math when I started in the CIS
(computer science) program in college. In fact, I didn't have a high
school diploma either (I left high school early because it was such a
waste of time). I had to take many of the math classes concurrently
with the CIS classes, and there were many times when I registered for
a class without having had the math pre-reqs, and just figured it out
as I went along, borrowing textbooks and such. A couple of times, it
caught me and I had to do some real scrambling to catch up, but all
in all when you want/need to know something, you can find a way to do
it.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

athom <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "the_clevengers
<diamondair@e...>" <diamondair@e...> wrote:
> > Not if he wants to go into computers. He is interested in music
> > techonology or computer gaming (and all the stuff that goes with
> > that--design, musical scores, storyboarding) and what we read
> > says that four years of math is expected.

I always hear from folks that if our young people want to go into
certain fields they MUST go to college, must follow a traditional
educational path. This simply isn't true. If it is their passion
they will find a way, attract the necessary attention, locate the
right mentors, and get where they want to go.

If you haven't read about Erik Demaine before check out how this
young man became the youngest associate professor at MIT, the world's
foremost authority in his math specialty (very long URL so be sure to
copy and paste both lines):

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/048/nation/
Road_scholar_finds_home_at_MIT+.shtml

And, of course, there's Bill Gates, another individual without a
college degree. Many others, too. And many with degrees who did not
get there the usual way.

Plus we now have MIT's Open Course Ware
(http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html) which has begun to open up the entire
panorama of post-secondary education to anyone who wants to learn
more with courses from some of our scientific and technologically
best minds. Not for credit, but for the knowledge. And that's what
real learning is all about. Not some commodity that is packaged up
and marketed to us, for a very dear price.

My daughter (15) wanted to go to college, was planning on going to
college for a degree in Interior Design. Our local college is
supposed to be rated one of the best in the U. S. for Interior
Design, according to one ratings list, so we thought that would be
fine. But then one of her cousins graduated with honors from this
same department, same school, with a degree in commercial design, and
four years later has not been able to find any work in her field, is
working for my sister in the banking industry. And another niece who
had a full scholarship to the same school, same department, in
architecture, completed one year there with a 4.0 and quit, went
home, got married, and opened her own landscape design business, is
very happy. She said it was boring and a waste of time. My daughter
decided to rethink her position about going to college.

I suggested that she go to the library and go through a stack of
Architectural Digest magazines, pick out some rooms she really likes,
some design work she admires. She did. I then suggested she
research the academic background of the designers she picked. She
did. All but one of the designers she selected had not attended
college for interior design, had not received a college degree. I
suggested she start looking into an internship, scouting about to
find out where she might be able to work her way into this field if
that's what she really wants to do. She is very happy with that
option right now.

Internships and apprenticeships, on-the-job training, work/training
programs, and other non-academic routes are equally valid and often
far more satisfying to those who choose them.

Norma
"Experts and an expert culture always call for more experts. Experts
also have a tendency to cartelize themselves by
creating 'institutional barricades' - for example proclaiming
themselves gatekeepers, as well as self-selecting themselves.
Finally, experts control knowledge production, as they decide what
valid and legitimate knowledge is, and how its acquisition is
sanctioned." – Ivan Illich

athom <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "athom <tessimal@y...>"
<tessimal@y...> wrote:
<>If you haven't read about Erik Demaine before check out how this
young man became the youngest associate professor at MIT, the world's
foremost authority in his math specialty (very long URL so be sure to
copy and paste both lines):

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/048/nation/
Road_scholar_finds_home_at_MIT+.shtml<>

Just discovered that this URL doesn't work anymore, so here's the
story for those who haven't read it:

Road Scholar Finds Home at MIT
Origami Whiz Learned From His Nomad Dad
By Ellen Barry, Globe Staff, 2/17/2002

Erik Demaine quit school at the age of 7.

If you had run into him a dozen years ago, it might have been in a bus
station somewhere between Halifax, Nova Scotia and Miami Beach, on
the road with his father, a silversmith and glassblower whose only
degree was from Medford High School.

And yet, there he was on Friday, lecturing a roomful of scientists on
his obscure specialty: computational origami. Demaine, at 20, arrived
in the fall at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with the
rank of assistant professor - one of the youngest the university has
ever hired.

But the thing that is truly unusual about Demaine is the story of the
path he took to get there - and of his father, Martin Demaine, who
has devoted much of his adult life to educating Erik in a decidedly
unorthodox way. Raised among hippies and jugglers and free thinkers,
Erik Demaine has found himself at the center of a field where
abstract math somehow intersects with street performance. That he is
a prodigy is not even a question, say people who have worked with
him; the question is what will amuse him.

''I think the sky is the limit,'' said Anna Lubiw, a professor at the
University of Waterloo in Ontario who has coauthored papers with Erik
since he was 15 years old. ''I don't know anybody else like him,
never mind young. To try to assume anything on the basis of what
other people have done is nonsense.''

These days, it would be hard to pick out Erik and Martin Demaine at
MIT's computer science department, where they both took offices last
September - Erik on the second floor as an assistant professor, his
father on the third as an unpaid visiting scholar, which Erik said
was an incentive, although not a condition, of his choice to come
here.

But eight years ago, when the father and son walked into the computer
science department of Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia,
they seemed to have emerged from nowhere. ''His dad and he walked
into our department and just said he wants to join the university,''
said Sampalli Srinivas, an associate professor.

Administrators looked at them like they were crazy. Erik was 12 years
old, he had no board scores, and no high school diploma. But they
allowed Erik to take advanced courses in abstract algebra and
programming languages. The result was clear by the end of the
term: ''He aced every single course,'' Srinivas said. ''I recognized
him as one of the brightest students I had.''

Over the next few years, a growing number of Canadian academics heard
the story of Erik's migratory education. It was a project that kept
father and son on the road for five years, eating $1 meals in rented
rooms, and strolling into prestigious universities to talk to
professors.

And it rested on a risky assumption about the academic world: That If
you called up a professor and said your son had some questions about
his work, that professor would invite you in, and start teaching.

''People always seemed curious to meet us,'' said Martin Demaine,
58. ''Then I would tell his age. I think there certainly was some
mystery about us that we allowed to exist.''

For the first years of Erik's life, the Demaines lived more or less
by the rules in Halifax, with Martin working long hours as a
silversmith and Erik enrolled in Montessori school, Martin said. But
after a painful divorce - neither father nor son was willing to talk
about it on the record - Martin came to the realization, as he puts
it, that ''I didn't know how to bring up a child.''

So Martin threw himself into it the way he had thrown himself into
glassblowing, silversmithing, puzzlemaking, and filmmaking, among
variousother pursuits. He fired the nanny and came up with a plan:
They would live on $5,000 a year. They would travel by bus, support
themselves with craft shows and the proceeds of the ''Erik & Dad
Puzzle Co.,'' and attempt to feed themselves on a budget of $1 per
meal per person (a goal Martin admits sheepishly now they did not
always achieve). Martin would work as little as possible.

The father's educational theory went like this: Apart from one hour
of homeschooling a day, the child should pursue his own interests.
They spent a few weeks at a commune in Tennessee, a year in
Providence, six months in Chicago. During a three-year stint in Miami
Beach, he sat Erik down with a neighbor to see if he was interested
in learning Chinese; the language instruction went nowhere, but the
neighbor had a computer.

They borrowed missionary textbooks from a group of Seventh-day
Adventists. Martin Demaine can remember three bookstores where the
staff became so accustomed to seeing the Demaines poring through
their merchandise that they set up tables as a study area for the two.

''We would go to a museum,'' Demaine said. ''Anything he pointed to or
mentioned, I'd go to the library and find a book and leave it on the
table. Sometimes after three days the books would disappear.''

The result, according to Erik Demaine, is that he pursued his own
interests, circumventing years of cramming for tests and memorizing
facts. ''Memorization is not such a big deal. You remember what you
need to remember and look the rest up,'' he said.

His father insisted that he try school regularly, ''To make sure,''
Erik Demaine said.

''In Miami Beach, I went to school for a month because there was this
cute girl,'' he said. ''It was a fine experience, but it was a much,
much slower pace than I was used to.''

Erik understands why people put such an emphasis on studying for
tests: ''You need grades so you can do something you want to do
afterward. You need to take the tests to get the grades to apply to
graduate school.''

But none of that ever applied to him. At 9, Erik took over the
home-schooling teacher's manual and began teaching himself.

At Dalhousie, and then at the University of Waterloo, the Demaines
made an unusual pair, the gangly teenager and his ponytailed father
sitting together in class. ''The thing that really struck me was the
way his dad motivated him,'' said Srinivas. ''When Erik was sick and
felt under the weather, his dad used to attend my lecture and make a
tape.''

And Martin Demaine, who had made forays into physics and law graduate
programs but had never finished a college degree, began to hear people
describe his son as a prodigy. ''To be honest, I just thought he was
above average,'' he said.

They continued to work together, though, as Erik's interests wandered
from tectonic plates to liquid dynamics to parallel computing
systems. It was Martin, with his background in the visual arts, who
introduced his son and his professors to the ancient Japanese art of
folding paper.

Long the exclusive terrain of a few researchers, origami math has
woken up slowly in recent years as researchers began to apply it to a
lengthening list of real-world applications: to the folding of
proteins in human DNA, or the unfolding of enormous lenses in
orbiting space telescopes, or the folding of air bags in automobiles.

Erik also became interested in the study of linkage, the dynamics of
rigid-sided polygons in two dimensions. Last year, with the help of
mathematicians Robert Connelly and Gunther Rote, he solved the
infamous ''Carpenter's Ruler'' problem, which had stymied scientists
since the 1960s, proving that any such polygon can be unraveled
without breaking - work that would be relevant to the fields of
robotics and genetics.

By last year, when he interviewed at Stanford, New York University,
and Carnegie Mellon, Erik was a coveted hire. Leigh Deacon, from her
desk in MIT's computer science department, watched the hiring process
with fascination. ''I said, unless this man has a third eye,
everybody's going to want him,'' Deacon said.

The news that he had accepted and that she would be working as his
administrative assistant made her more than a little anxious. She had
already spent too much time around geniuses, enough to know
that ''almost none of them know how to behave with other humans.''

''I thought to myself, what am I going to get? The most arrogant,
egotistical person on the planet? Am I going to get someone just
short of insane? There's got to be something wrong with him to
compensate for his brilliance,'' said Deacon. ''I was just
shocked ... He has this sort of quiet humility. He's got this nice
expression on his face.''

Then there was the strange business of his father accompanying him.
It's an unusual arrangement, agreed one colleague, but it's worked so
far.

''Anyone who takes the time to know what Erik is about would know that
separating him from his father would be a bad idea,'' said Thomas
Hull, an assistant professor at Merrimack College who has conducted
research with the Demaines on origami.

Lubiw, who was one of Erik's thesis advisers, said there is no
question that the Demaines' work is a function of synergy. ''Even me,
I can't tell what is his gift, what is his obsession, and what is his
hard work,'' said Lubiw. ''I do take moral lessons for the way Marty
raised him.''

At 20, Erik is nearly out of prodigy age range, and his lanky 6-foot-
3-inch frame makes his age barely detectable anyway. He will explain,
with a sweet smile, that our society is far too age- segregated: ''It
is my single passive political stance,'' he said - and argues that a
lot of other people could do what he does if they had the same
encouragement.

In the Waterloo department that was home to this strange duo until
last fall, there is a twinge of regret at their departure. But Ian
Munro, Erik's thesis adviser, said he is just glad they came in the
first place.

''You don't regret things like that happening to you,'' said
Munro. ''You think: It was great to have Erik as a student.''

This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 2/17/2002.

Norma
"Experts and an expert culture always call for more experts. Experts
also have a tendency to cartelize themselves by
creating 'institutional barricades' - for example proclaiming
themselves gatekeepers, as well as self-selecting themselves.
Finally, experts control knowledge production, as they decide what
valid and legitimate knowledge is, and how its acquisition is
sanctioned." – Ivan Illich

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 11:20:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tessimal@... writes:


> I always hear from folks that if our young people want to go into
> certain fields they MUST go to college, must follow a traditional
> educational path. This simply isn't true. If it is their passion
> they will find a way, attract the necessary attention, locate the
> right mentors, and get where they want to go
>>>>>>>>>
I agree you can possibly get a foot hold into a job without a degree but it's
probably going to effect you down the line in advancement. My own hubby and
my BIL have both been dealing with this in the last couple years. They both
are self taught engineers in different fields but have reached the tops their
companies would let them go without degrees. My BIL did an associate degree
online and changed companies with a drastic cut in pay because he didn't like
the company he was working for since the son took over. He's anticipating
that he should be back up to what he was paying in the next 3 to 5 years. My
hubby is stuck - he makes more then managers in other companies so we'd also
take a major pay cut (as much as 1/2 his salary now) which we can't afford
for him to change companies. His company because of his work schedule is
making it impossible for him to stay in college consistently to get a degree
although he has finished his freshman levels and is somewhere into his
sophomore level. They've used his lack of degree for the last 3 years as a
reason not to give him a pay raise. The fact that he's attending college
even and has several patents under his name doesn't make a difference. What
gets me the most is that they don't even care what the degree is in - they
have one guy there that has a degree in forestry BUT it's a degree. So I
guess my long winded point to all this is that yes you can get into the field
but your going to need that piece of paper to advance very far eventually.
---Tammy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> > Not if he wants to go into computers. He is interested in music
> > techonology or computer gaming (and all the stuff that goes with
> > that--design, musical scores, storyboarding) and what we read
> > says that four years of math is expected.

Obviously things have changed since 1970, but I went into a computer
programming course at a community college then with *no* prerequisites. I
had taken symbolic logic, done very well and loved it. Someone told me I'd
be good at programming, so I started the course. I had intended to continue
here in Canada at some point, but here even the community college had a
bunch of math and science prerequisites.
>
> I don't know much about the people who program games, but I wonder that he
> really even needs to go to college for that.

I would wonder that as well. There are *tons* of self-taught programmers
out there. Just because colleges teach something doesn't mean it's the only
place to learn it. I remember Wendy Priesnitz telling a story about one of
her daughters who went to high school but had done no college. She saw an
ad for a web page designer and faxed her resume. She got hired over a
number of university grads. They told her that they hired her because she
had shown she knew how to learn what she didn't know. They also said that
universities tend to produce computer science grads who are a year or two
behind the latest technology.
Tia

athom <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], rosefairiemom@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/29/2003 11:20:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> tessimal@y... writes:
<>So I guess my long winded point to all this is that yes you can get
into the field but your going to need that piece of paper to advance
very far eventually.<>

Tammy:

If you are doing something your really love, your life passion, the
money is seldom the deciding factor. I mean, do you know the
percentage of actors who make more than $5,000 a year? It's
infinitesimal. Doesn't stop folks from going into acting. And a
college degree in that field is....window dressing!

Yes, some fields are totally controlled by the whole "culture of
experts," which clearly does not make them great vocations for me.
But for someone who just loves that sort of thing, well they pay the
price for buying into that kind of expert controlled career if they
remain in this country. Truly, almost no career is totally
protected. Technological changes and economic changes, not to
mention a crashing stock market, can turn even the most secure person
into a welfare client. Might as well consider doing what you love
and not choose your life's work solely for money.

By the way, the big demand careers for the future will be in services
the U. S. Dept. of labor says, everything from waiters and waitresses
to all other services. So if it's security you are looking for, then
get into a service industry, or start a service industry based
business. Security and income do not necessarily equal job
satisfaction, however.

Norma
"Experts and an expert culture always call for more experts. Experts
also have a tendency to cartelize themselves by
creating 'institutional barricades' - for example proclaiming
themselves gatekeepers, as well as self-selecting themselves.
Finally, experts control knowledge production, as they decide what
valid and legitimate knowledge is, and how its acquisition is
sanctioned." – Ivan Illich

cindyjsowers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "athom <tessimal@y...>"
<tessimal@y...> wrote:
> I suggested that she go to the library and go through a stack of
> Architectural Digest magazines, pick out some rooms she really
likes,
> some design work she admires. She did. I then suggested she
> research the academic background of the designers she picked. She
> did. All but one of the designers she selected had not attended
> college for interior design, had not received a college degree. I
> suggested she start looking into an internship, scouting about to
> find out where she might be able to work her way into this field
if
> that's what she really wants to do. She is very happy with that
> option right now.
>
> Internships and apprenticeships, on-the-job training,
work/training
> programs, and other non-academic routes are equally valid and
often
> far more satisfying to those who choose them.


I used to have an acquaintance who was doing a very successful
business as an interior designer for a rather upscale crowd in
Seattle when I met her. She started out as a flight attendant. Did
some traveling doing that, and picked up a bunch of cool stuff on
her travels. People told her she had a knack for picking out cool
stuff. She then got the idea to become an importer/exporter, and
started a small business doing that. She then bought a house,
decorated it with her stuff, and that took her into the idea of
interior design. She told me, "I took a lot of risks, but only
because I didn't know what they were ahead of time. Otherwise I
might not have tried the stuff I did." I don't think she had any
notion that being a flight attendant would lead to being an interior
designer. Who would predict that? Anyway, people go about doing
the things they want to do from all sorts of directions. There
can't possibly be only one way to do something. You just have to
start from somewhere and keep an eye open for opportunities. There
are always going to be obstacles. Maybe it just depends on how you
look at it.

Cindy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:01:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tessimal@... writes:


> Security and income do not necessarily equal job
> satisfaction, however.
>
>>>>>>>>
Quite true. ---Tammy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:06:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rosefairiemom@... writes:

> Security and income do not necessarily equal job
> >satisfaction, however.
>

But sometimes that security and income help make for a pleasant home life,
especially when trying to raise children.

Some people would be content to give away their life's passion/work to the
detriment of their family.

So I guess a nice balance is best.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

athom <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], rosefairiemom@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:01:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> tessimal@y... writes:
>
>
> > Security and income do not necessarily equal job
> > satisfaction, however.
> >
> >>>>>>>>
> Quite true. ---Tammy

There are so many variables in life. My late husband had only a high
school diploma when he separated from the military, post Viet Nam.
He took advantage of a free electrical trades training program in the
community funded technical trade school where we were living. He
then worked as an apprentice for with a private contractor for
awhile, finally getting a very good job as a union apprentice at one
of the government laboratories. They offered reimbursement for
college courses, so he started studying to be an electrical engineer,
one course at a time. He finally received his college degree, all
the way getting raises and further specialized training where he
worked, in the government lab. He died about 10 years later, but he
had his degree.

Another friend at the same laboratory started as a secretary. She
had about a year of college when she started working there. She took
her college reimbursement benefits and completed her undergrad degree
in business, then went on to get her MBA. All paid for by her
employer. She now has a mid-level administrative job there, paying
many times higher than her secretarial position did. And she likes
what she's doing.

And a third friend went to work in a contracting firm, as a
secretary, started taking college courses toward a degree in
engineering, again paid for by her employer. She graduated a few
years ago and walked across the hall to her own office and a very
highly paid job in the firm, who were all very proud of her and happy
to welcome her to join them in the higher income brackets.

There are plenty of ways to get to college, to get a degree, if
that's what someone really wants.

Norma
"[B]y making school compulsory, [people] are schooled to believe that
the self-taught individual is to be discriminated against; that
learning and the growth of cognitive capacity, require a process of
consumption of services presented in an industrial, a planned, a
professional form;... that learning is a thing rather than an
activity." - Ivan Illich

Have a Nice Day!

Tammy,

This isn't about a college degree then. Its just an excuse not to pay someone.

Though I'll agree that if your husband had a degree, they couldn't use it as an excuse.

Sounds like you guys are really stuck.

kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: rosefairiemom@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: more on college


In a message dated 1/29/2003 11:20:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tessimal@... writes:


> I always hear from folks that if our young people want to go into
> certain fields they MUST go to college, must follow a traditional
> educational path. This simply isn't true. If it is their passion
> they will find a way, attract the necessary attention, locate the
> right mentors, and get where they want to go
>>>>>>>>>
I agree you can possibly get a foot hold into a job without a degree but it's
probably going to effect you down the line in advancement. My own hubby and
my BIL have both been dealing with this in the last couple years. They both
are self taught engineers in different fields but have reached the tops their
companies would let them go without degrees. My BIL did an associate degree
online and changed companies with a drastic cut in pay because he didn't like
the company he was working for since the son took over. He's anticipating
that he should be back up to what he was paying in the next 3 to 5 years. My
hubby is stuck - he makes more then managers in other companies so we'd also
take a major pay cut (as much as 1/2 his salary now) which we can't afford
for him to change companies. His company because of his work schedule is
making it impossible for him to stay in college consistently to get a degree
although he has finished his freshman levels and is somewhere into his
sophomore level. They've used his lack of degree for the last 3 years as a
reason not to give him a pay raise. The fact that he's attending college
even and has several patents under his name doesn't make a difference. What
gets me the most is that they don't even care what the degree is in - they
have one guy there that has a degree in forestry BUT it's a degree. So I
guess my long winded point to all this is that yes you can get into the field
but your going to need that piece of paper to advance very far eventually.
---Tammy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/03 1:31:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:

> Some people would be content to give away their life's passion/work to the
> detriment of their family.
>

Yes, Thank God for the man who keep a roof over our heads and food on our
table.. and. shoes on our feet and gas in our cars.. :-) My husband has
sacrificed a lot for our family, he doesn't love his job( yes, of course I
wish he did), but he loves us enough to do it anyway. I don't think he feels
like one of those men who got "trapped" with a family before he got to find
himself. I know he considers himself blessed to have us and honored to be
able to provide for us.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:26:48 -0000 "athom <tessimal@...>" >
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/048/nation/
> Road_scholar_finds_home_at_MIT+.shtml<>

Norma,
This was intriguing. Thanks for sharing.

Wende

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Fetteroll

on 1/29/03 6:38 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> My husband has
> sacrificed a lot for our family, he doesn't love his job( yes, of course I
> wish he did), but he loves us enough to do it anyway. I don't think he feels
> like one of those men who got "trapped" with a family before he got to find
> himself. I know he considers himself blessed to have us and honored to be
> able to provide for us.

Is that what you want for your kids?

Getting a job you don't like to pay the bills is *always* an option.
Realizing that is pretty much a no brainer.

But finding work you love and figuring out how to make it work for the life
you want, isn't that a great life goal?

Like unschooling, if you want something better, it's more helpful to listen
to people who know there are better options and have found them or are
working toward them than people who are willing to stop part way.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/2003 7:15:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> But finding work you love and figuring out how to make it work for the life
> you want, isn't that a great life goal?
>
> Like unschooling, if you want something better, it's more helpful to listen
> to people who know there are better options and have found them or are
> working toward them than people who are willing to stop part way.
>

I agree that it's a great goal to work towards but we all know how sometimes
life gets in the way and we take a different path, maybe not what we've
always dreamed of but sometimes we have to learn to be happy where we are at
too, that's the sadder part of reality.

I guess in theory if one put off finding/marrying a mate and having children
until they found a way to first FIND their lives passion then spend the time
figuring out how exactly to support a single person then figure out how to
increase it to support a spouse and family...

Most of reality is that people don't wait until half way through life to get
married and have a family. Some people are quite lucky and figure out a way
to immediately make a lot of money with their passion, sports celebrities
come to mind, but they are a small minority.

While it is a distinct possibility that your life's passion will support you
and your eventual family for life, sometimes one must also evaluate where you
are at the moment and what you are willing to give up for the love of your
life and a lot of us do that very willingly and it's very OK too.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 7:15:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> But finding work you love and figuring out how to make it work for the life
> you want, isn't that a great life goal?
>

YES.. and of course that is what I want for my kids.. and deep discussion to
that effect takes place A LOT around here..But, I dont want to discount what
my husband does ( and MANY MANY other men, for that fact) Im not saying ..
Look at your dad, you neeed to be like him!.. But I am saying what he does
is honorable and "right" of its own accord. I know that through example of
just how difficult life can be when you marry young and have kids, my
children have learned it's probably not the easiest way to go.. But, gosh,
they sure are glad we did :-) Otherwise, they wouldnt be here.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:
>>While it is a distinct possibility that your life's passion will support you
and your eventual family for life, sometimes one must also evaluate where you
are at the moment and what you are willing to give up for the love of your
life and a lot of us do that very willingly and it's very OK too.>>



And we are now trying to undo that kind-of thinking. My dh has never even considering doing something he might enjoy. And I want him to know that I'm willing to work towards that goal. We are now putting together a plan, a 2 year one, so we can do what we love. (and also figuring out what those passion are) We are figuring out what we can give up, materialistically, so that we can find work that fits with our passions.



I want my children to see the possibilities that life has to offer. Not the limitations. I know reality is there and sometimes we have to work a "job" to get by, but why not at least try? To me alot of people just say, "Oh, I can't make a living doing that!"



My dh and I were raised to think you find a job to make a living, like alot of people, I'm sure, now we are working to change that thinking. I really don't feel like we are too old either, we are older than 11 tho' <g>, I'm ready to start living my life even if I am 35, it is never too late!



Off my soap box now,



Kelli











In a message dated 1/30/2003 7:15:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> But finding work you love and figuring out how to make it work for the life
> you want, isn't that a great life goal?
>
> Like unschooling, if you want something better, it's more helpful to listen
> to people who know there are better options and have found them or are
> working toward them than people who are willing to stop part way.
>

I agree that it's a great goal to work towards but we all know how sometimes
life gets in the way and we take a different path, maybe not what we've
always dreamed of but sometimes we have to learn to be happy where we are at
too, that's the sadder part of reality.

I guess in theory if one put off finding/marrying a mate and having children
until they found a way to first FIND their lives passion then spend the time
figuring out how exactly to support a single person then figure out how to
increase it to support a spouse and family...

Most of reality is that people don't wait until half way through life to get
married and have a family. Some people are quite lucky and figure out a way
to immediately make a lot of money with their passion, sports celebrities
come to mind, but they are a small minority.

While it is a distinct possibility that your life's passion will support you
and your eventual family for life, sometimes one must also evaluate where you
are at the moment and what you are willing to give up for the love of your
life and a lot of us do that very willingly and it's very OK too.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/2003 9:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
grlynbl@... writes:

> But I am saying what he does
> is honorable and "right" of its own accord. I know that through example
> of
> just how difficult life can be when you marry young and have kids, my
> children have learned it's probably not the easiest way to go.. But, gosh,
> they sure are glad we did :-) Otherwise, they wouldnt be here.
>

I totally agree, while we MUST honor and nurture our childrens dreams and
goals we also must honor sacrifice and love of others in life, acknowledging
that sometimes we exchange some of our wants/goals/passions so that others
may fill our heart with a different passion, family/children/life.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>>Is that what you want for your kids?

Getting a job you don't like to pay the bills is *always* an option.
Realizing that is pretty much a no brainer.

But finding work you love and figuring out how to make it work for the life
you want, isn't that a great life goal?

Like unschooling, if you want something better, it's more helpful to listen
to people who know there are better options and have found them or are
working toward them than people who are willing to stop part way.>>



Thank you Joyce, for this post, this is why I am here!



Kelli






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
>
>
> rubyprincesstsg@a... wrote:
> >>While it is a distinct possibility that your life's passion will
support you
> and your eventual family for life, sometimes one must also
evaluate where you
> are at the moment and what you are willing to give up for the
love of your
> life and a lot of us do that very willingly and it's very OK too.>>
>
>
>
> And we are now trying to undo that kind-of thinking. My dh has
never even considering doing something he might enjoy. And I
want him to know that I'm willing to work towards that goal. We
are now putting together a plan, a 2 year one, so we can do what
we love. (and also figuring out what those passion are) We are
figuring out what we can give up, materialistically, so that we can
find work that fits with our passions.
>
>
>
> I want my children to see the possibilities that life has to offer.
Not the limitations. I know reality is there and sometimes we
have to work a "job" to get by, but why not at least try? To me alot
of people just say, "Oh, I can't make a living doing that!"
>
>
>
> My dh and I were raised to think you find a job to make a living,
like alot of people, I'm sure, now we are working to change that
thinking. I really don't feel like we are too old either, we are
older than 11 tho' <g>, I'm ready to start living my life even if I am
35, it is never too late!

Kelli, just chiming in with you.

My dh has changed what he does ten times in our marriage. And
I have supported every change. He is still figuring out what he
loves. And each time he gets a piece of it, he is so much happier
in life. In the meantime, he works as a professor and has
another job that acts as our financial base. But that doesn't stop
him for starting a business or dreaming. And I'm excited to see
how much clarity starts to come when you stop thinking in terms
of what I "can" do to what I "want" to do.

One last thing.

My 8yos wants to work with animals. They are his consuming
passion. I checked out a book about careers in wildlife and it
was fabulous. The best part came at the end. The writer said
something to this effect: If you want to work with animals, start
today. Spend some time with animals and find a niche. If you're
an accountant, then be an accountant for a zoo or nature center.
If your experience is hiring and firing people, work in HR for a
zoo.

Do animal rescue as your avocation.

Volunteer to do education for endangered species.

The point was that every job a person can do would be more
happily done if that person were around animals (this is for the
animal lover).

I got to thinking about that and thought it was a good principle for
anyone looking at work/career. find a way to take what you are
good at and use it in the field of your interest. That will take you
one step closer to being congruent with what you spend most of
your time doing and what you spend your time fantasizing about.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/2003 10:23:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:


> We are figuring out what we can give up, materialistically, so that we can
> find work that fits with our passions.
>
>

Is anyone familiar with the book Un-Jobbing by Michael Fogler? I have seen
him speak on various talk shows and he talks reducing materialistic things in
your life and not being a "slave" to your job. The book looks interesting.
Amy Kagey
E-mail me for a list of used
homeschooling books for sale!
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">Shop: Usborne Books!</A>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Yes, I tried to order it through Amazon but was unsuccessful. They didn't have anymore.

I think I found it on some other web site tho'. I'm going to order it today if I can, I keep forgetting and then we have this conversation and I'm reminded.

I need to get it so we have these 2 years to prepare and think through it all.

Kelli


amycats2@... wrote:In a message dated 1/30/2003 10:23:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:


> We are figuring out what we can give up, materialistically, so that we can
> find work that fits with our passions.
>
>

Is anyone familiar with the book Un-Jobbing by Michael Fogler? I have seen
him speak on various talk shows and he talks reducing materialistic things in
your life and not being a "slave" to your job. The book looks interesting.
Amy Kagey
E-mail me for a list of used
homeschooling books for sale!
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">Shop: Usborne Books!</A>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 10:19:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

> . I checked out a book about careers in wildlife and it
> was fabulous. The best part came at the end.

Do you remember the name of the book or the author. My youngest wants to be
a zoo keeper.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 8:57:19 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< While it is a distinct possibility that your life's passion will support
you
and your eventual family for life, sometimes one must also evaluate where
you
are at the moment and what you are willing to give up for the love of your
life and a lot of us do that very willingly and it's very OK too. >>

It's funny you see it that way, as an either/or situation.
My dh and I married young (20 and 25 y.o.) and neither of us really had a
clue about our lifes passion at that point.
Most of our married life, he worked for a company that paid well and had a
lot of great benefits, but he wasn't happy there.
He really, really wanted to do his own thing. We are both extremely
independant personality types and I understood the drive to not want to work
for someone else.
We moved across the country and started our own business. It was a huge risk
and we got by on very little money the first three years. Not an easy thing
to do with three children.
Now we have four children, a successful business that has supported us since
it opened and I am working part time at something I love to do.
He will be supporting me while I get my massage therapy license next year,
another passion that I've always had.
So I don't think just because a person has a family to support they should
have to work a job they don't love. I will do whatever it takes to help my dh
have work he loves, and I did. I cooked everything from scratch, didn't have
a car for TWO years.
It was hard. But I know he'd sacrifice for me too.....we help each other
fulfill our dreams and have work we love. I can't imagine doing it any other
way.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson
Burnett

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

> Is anyone familiar with the book Un-Jobbing by Michael Fogler? I
have seen
> him speak on various talk shows and he talks reducing materialistic
things in
> your life and not being a "slave" to your job. The book looks
interesting.


I haven't read that one, but the book that started us on this road,
before having children, was the classic "Your Money Or Your Life" by
Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin. I highly recommend it to anyone who is
interested in transforming the way that they think about money and
prioritizing their spending so that they can live in an un-jobbing
manner. We went through the worksheets in the book and they were
quite eye-opening for us at the time. We also joined a "Voluntary
Simplicity" discussion group, and that also helped us to get into a
very different mindset with regards to work, spending, living style,
income, etc. "Voluntary Simplicity" is also the title of a book (but
I haven't read that one), and there are other books on this subject,
like "The Circle of Simplicity: Return to the Good Life" by Cecile
Andrews. While these are not specifically about un-jobbing, they are
definitely helpful in terms of finding a way to get to that place in
your life where un-jobbing is possible.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

Kelli Traaseth

Ren, hopefully in a couple of years I'll be in the same situation!

This is great!

Kelli


starsuncloud@... wrote:In a message dated 1/30/03 8:57:19 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< While it is a distinct possibility that your life's passion will support
you
and your eventual family for life, sometimes one must also evaluate where
you
are at the moment and what you are willing to give up for the love of your
life and a lot of us do that very willingly and it's very OK too. >>

It's funny you see it that way, as an either/or situation.
My dh and I married young (20 and 25 y.o.) and neither of us really had a
clue about our lifes passion at that point.
Most of our married life, he worked for a company that paid well and had a
lot of great benefits, but he wasn't happy there.
He really, really wanted to do his own thing. We are both extremely
independant personality types and I understood the drive to not want to work
for someone else.
We moved across the country and started our own business. It was a huge risk
and we got by on very little money the first three years. Not an easy thing
to do with three children.
Now we have four children, a successful business that has supported us since
it opened and I am working part time at something I love to do.
He will be supporting me while I get my massage therapy license next year,
another passion that I've always had.
So I don't think just because a person has a family to support they should
have to work a job they don't love. I will do whatever it takes to help my dh
have work he loves, and I did. I cooked everything from scratch, didn't have
a car for TWO years.
It was hard. But I know he'd sacrifice for me too.....we help each other
fulfill our dreams and have work we love. I can't imagine doing it any other
way.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson
Burnett

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