Jim Selvage

Sandra,
> << I guess part of my problem is still that I feel like it shouldn't
always be
> me asking. I feel like they should notice too. >>
>
> Oh. Get over that. It will only make you unhappy.

This is probably true.
>
> <<Not necessarily because it
> is what I want, but because I don't want them to be children who grow up
and
> let their spouse or children do all the picking up. >>
>
> They're not married. They HAVE no children.

This is true too, and hopefully will be for a while, : - ), but don't you
still think that things children "learn" as children affect what type of
adults they will be. I know I have spent a lot of time trying to get over
the things that I learned, and it isn't easy, lol.
>
> This line of reasoning is like waking children up every morning at 7:00 so
> they'll be ready when they get to college or get a job. How do you know
they
> won't go to night school, work graveyard?

I understand your reasoning here, and definitely don't get my children up
early to prepare them for adulthood, afterall I don't want to get up that
early, lol. Through all of our homeschooling years we have tried at
different times to make an early schedule, but really the only thing that
ever works is getting up early when we HAVE to be somewhere.
>
> The best preparation for the future is a happy today.

I do agree with that, so I would like my children to happily help without
being asked, : - )

> <<I can see the value in me not complaining/stressing over this, which I
really don't (though they may know it bothers me)>>
>
> The ideal is not to hide the bother, but to overcome it and NOT be
bothered.

Okay, this is true,and I believe right, but . . . I noticed when you gave
the story about asking Marty to get something for you and he didn't respond
kindly, you wanted to make sure he knew that. So you talked to him about it
when he came after the commerical(not your words obviously, I don't remember
the exact quote) and then all were happy. I think I am doing the same thing
by saying that they know it bothers me. But, I am still working on not
letting it bother, because I know that is the right thing to do.
>
> << I would prefer kind considerate
> kids who jump in and help when they see someone needs that help, without
being asked.>>
>
> That's what we're trying to help you get to.
> But if you expect it to look like your dream of them doing hours of
housework a day, it won't. Just as really great unschooling does not EVER
look like > one hour of math problems, one hour of reading a history chapter
and
> answering the questions, one hour of writing a report...

I don't expect this. I really don't. I have done lots of reading before I
came to this list, and I have been living with my children for years. We
have not totally unschooled before (I was one of those unschooling except
for math and writing folks, sorry), but they did learn to read on their own,
I have never pushed school type readers (though they have read a whole set
of them someone gave us, just because they enjoyed them, and they did three
"years" worth of these readers in about a month, and skipped what they
didn't like, etc.) Not trying to brag here, just trying to let you know
that I do understand unschooling and I know they will never sit down and do
school like school is done in schools. Fortunately, I would never be able
to handle that anyway. We have used curriculum over the years, but I don't
think we have ever used it in the way it was fully intended to be used. We
are not using any curriculum now though, and stopped because I realized I
was moving toward too much structure(kids who would be in high school if
they went to school jitters) and my children made it very apparent that it
would not work.

So am I making any sense?

thanks for your help,
erin

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/03 12:41:20 PM, jselvage@... writes:

<< > The ideal is not to hide the bother, but to overcome it and NOT be
bothered.
>>

< but . . . I noticed when you gave
the story about asking Marty to get something for you and he didn't respond
kindly, you wanted to make sure he knew that. >>

But, I didn't
make him go to the garage during his show
yell at him
complain about it later (except here, to tell the story)

I don't always meet the ideal, but I SEE the ideal, and sometimes it's right
and sometimes it's not quite, but when I don't meet my own ideal, I consider
it a lack and a failing on my part.

I could have a collection of resentments, but I don't WANT to have. So when
I can, I dump them. Or I avoid building them in the first place, even better.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/24/03 2:40 PM, Jim Selvage at jselvage@... wrote:

> but don't you
> still think that things children "learn" as children affect what type of
> adults they will be.

Well, what if they learn "Would you like help with that?" because that's
what we model for them?

Joyce

Jim Selvage

Sandra,

Yes, I can see that is a very good strategy. I am still really just trying
to come up with a way to do things in my home, not saying that you didn't do
it right, but that I noticed that you did respond. I also do not want to
hold on to resentment or anything, that is not good for the children or me.
But, I guess what I saw in your post is a way to let Marty know what you
were thinking/feeling but not punishing or judging. The only difference in
my family is that I am not sure I know how to let them know without the
perception that I am judging what they did.

I know now from other posts that the reason you are able to do this is
because of your relationship with Marty, and that is as it should be. It is
just different coming to this in the middle of the teen years and I am
trying to figure out how to do it for us.

I do think that my children and I have a good relationship, but it obviously
could use some work in these areas. I am really trying over the last
couple of days to be more giving and not expecting in returning. That is
probably what it will take in the long haul.

Thanks for your help,
erin
> < but . . . I noticed when you gave
> the story about asking Marty to get something for you and he didn't
respond
> kindly, you wanted to make sure he knew that. >>
>
> But, I didn't
> make him go to the garage during his show
> yell at him
> complain about it later (except here, to tell the story)
>
> I don't always meet the ideal, but I SEE the ideal, and sometimes it's
right
> and sometimes it's not quite, but when I don't meet my own ideal, I
consider
> it a lack and a failing on my part.
>
> I could have a collection of resentments, but I don't WANT to have. So
when
> I can, I dump them. Or I avoid building them in the first place, even
better.
>
> Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/25/03 11:18 AM, Jim Selvage at jselvage@... wrote:

> It is
> just different coming to this in the middle of the teen years and I am
> trying to figure out how to do it for us.

A really good book is Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The Relationship Approach by
Mira Kirshenbaum. Basically the message is not to do anything that doesn't
enhance your relationship with your teen.

Joyce