spanking for eternity
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 9:55:15 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< We will agree to disagree; I know many conservative Christians, and
they are not spankers, nor do their ministers tell them to spank. >>
That doesn't change the fact that in a huge population of conservative
Christians it IS common and encouraged.
Just because a person has some friends that don't fit the mold, doesn't mean
what is being said here isn't true.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< We will agree to disagree; I know many conservative Christians, and
they are not spankers, nor do their ministers tell them to spank. >>
That doesn't change the fact that in a huge population of conservative
Christians it IS common and encouraged.
Just because a person has some friends that don't fit the mold, doesn't mean
what is being said here isn't true.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 9:55:15 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Again, these are choices that a parent makes. A book itself cannot
force an unwilling parent to spank their child; nor can any speaker
force an unwilling parent to spank. Parents who are feeling coerced
and are opposed to spanking can walk away from a book, a speaker, a
church. They do not HAVE to spank; they are making a choice, a
decision, to spank; and if they claim coercion, it is because they
allowed themselves to be coerced. They oughta grow a spine and
say, "No." >>
So it's just all the fault of people that don't have other information and
listen to the leaders of their church?
The leaders have no responsibility for the bad information they support?
Hmm....
I have a personal story for you.
My parents were both raised in the church they also raised us in. It is a
very legalistic, cult-like church and they were taught (both by the way they
were raised and church ideas) that spanking was good and right.
Funny thing is, they never felt a need to spank me up until I was three and
some of the ministers pointed out that I was too "self willed" and they
should spank me.
There was a lot of pressure from folks and they succumbed. They thought they
were doing the right thing. So these things DO sway people to do differently
than their instinct dictates.
Church is often about fitting in, not rocking the boat, so you're going to
have people more receptive to adhering to leadership views.
My folks later had horrible guilt for the spankings foisted upon all of us
and begged us not to spank our own. So far, all three of the biological
siblings don't believe in spanking.
One sister has a very little one, just 1.5 y.o. and is using time out
occasionally, so she still doesn't see all the options available, but it's
gotten better with each generation.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< Again, these are choices that a parent makes. A book itself cannot
force an unwilling parent to spank their child; nor can any speaker
force an unwilling parent to spank. Parents who are feeling coerced
and are opposed to spanking can walk away from a book, a speaker, a
church. They do not HAVE to spank; they are making a choice, a
decision, to spank; and if they claim coercion, it is because they
allowed themselves to be coerced. They oughta grow a spine and
say, "No." >>
So it's just all the fault of people that don't have other information and
listen to the leaders of their church?
The leaders have no responsibility for the bad information they support?
Hmm....
I have a personal story for you.
My parents were both raised in the church they also raised us in. It is a
very legalistic, cult-like church and they were taught (both by the way they
were raised and church ideas) that spanking was good and right.
Funny thing is, they never felt a need to spank me up until I was three and
some of the ministers pointed out that I was too "self willed" and they
should spank me.
There was a lot of pressure from folks and they succumbed. They thought they
were doing the right thing. So these things DO sway people to do differently
than their instinct dictates.
Church is often about fitting in, not rocking the boat, so you're going to
have people more receptive to adhering to leadership views.
My folks later had horrible guilt for the spankings foisted upon all of us
and begged us not to spank our own. So far, all three of the biological
siblings don't believe in spanking.
One sister has a very little one, just 1.5 y.o. and is using time out
occasionally, so she still doesn't see all the options available, but it's
gotten better with each generation.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], starsuncloud@c... wrote:
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. I have encountered fundamentalist christians who believe
in spanking and other methods of "training" a child, but I cannot
extrapolate those fundamentalist teachings to an entire population of
Christians.
I'm sorry; we will have to disagree, although I appreciate your
comments.
Debbie
> That doesn't change the fact that in a huge population ofconservative
> Christians it IS common and encouraged.doesn't mean
> Just because a person has some friends that don't fit the mold,
> what is being said here isn't true.Ren, you are implying that I must believe what is said here, although
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. I have encountered fundamentalist christians who believe
in spanking and other methods of "training" a child, but I cannot
extrapolate those fundamentalist teachings to an entire population of
Christians.
I'm sorry; we will have to disagree, although I appreciate your
comments.
Debbie
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], starsuncloud@c... wrote:
cyberhead <g>, I will say that the parents who spank do so because
they have made a choice to spank. They may have been encouraged;
they may even have been instructed or admonished to spank, but they
made that decision to strike their child. The parents bear that
responsibility.
Religious and political leaders throughout time have preached and
supported bad information. People have a choice whether to believe
it, to accept it, and whether to act on it.
sufficient to say that I was spanked as a child, often with a belt.
That is why I made my original post on this thread.
Thanks again for sharing your feelings and thoughts on this topic.
Debbie
>information and
> So it's just all the fault of people that don't have other
> listen to the leaders of their church?support?
> The leaders have no responsibility for the bad information they
> Hmm....Fault? At the risk of bringing additional wrath down upon my
cyberhead <g>, I will say that the parents who spank do so because
they have made a choice to spank. They may have been encouraged;
they may even have been instructed or admonished to spank, but they
made that decision to strike their child. The parents bear that
responsibility.
Religious and political leaders throughout time have preached and
supported bad information. People have a choice whether to believe
it, to accept it, and whether to act on it.
> I have a personal story for you.I have a story, too, although I dislike trading "war" stories. It is
sufficient to say that I was spanked as a child, often with a belt.
That is why I made my original post on this thread.
Thanks again for sharing your feelings and thoughts on this topic.
Debbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 10:38:33 AM, Debbies4@... writes:
<< Ren, you are implying that I must believe what is said here, although
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. I have encountered fundamentalist christians who believe
in spanking and other methods of "training" a child, but I cannot
extrapolate those fundamentalist teachings to an entire population of
Christians. >>
I haven't encountered Hawaii, or New Zealand, but I am convinced they exist.
I'm not in the Bible Belt. I'm in New Mexico. But I had a neighbor three
houses up from me who had three children (and two up and out from a previous
marriage) whose husband converted to Christianity after they were married,
took her and the children to a church less than a mile from my old house, and
informed them that they were going to start homeschooling.
She went along because they were caught up in the fervor of getting
themselves and their children right with God. Everyone at that church
homeschooled. They all used the same curriculum. I guess those who didn't
want to homeschool went to another church.
Albuquerque. Not even in the southeast. Not even in Texas.
<<Ren, you are implying that I must believe what is said here, although
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. >>
This stuns me. You will NOT encounter them unless you move where they are
or you join one of their churches.
There are state homeschooling conventions in southern states which are HUGE.
THOUSANDS of families. Vendors raking in money by selling them stuff to
guarantee that their children will learn, will be good Christians, will not
be exposed to evolution or multi-culturalism. Those conventions begin and
end with prayer. Many of the speakers are men beause of a Bible verse.
You don't have to believe me. But to say you don't believe me because you
haven't seen it is a weird response.
Sandra
<< Ren, you are implying that I must believe what is said here, although
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. I have encountered fundamentalist christians who believe
in spanking and other methods of "training" a child, but I cannot
extrapolate those fundamentalist teachings to an entire population of
Christians. >>
I haven't encountered Hawaii, or New Zealand, but I am convinced they exist.
I'm not in the Bible Belt. I'm in New Mexico. But I had a neighbor three
houses up from me who had three children (and two up and out from a previous
marriage) whose husband converted to Christianity after they were married,
took her and the children to a church less than a mile from my old house, and
informed them that they were going to start homeschooling.
She went along because they were caught up in the fervor of getting
themselves and their children right with God. Everyone at that church
homeschooled. They all used the same curriculum. I guess those who didn't
want to homeschool went to another church.
Albuquerque. Not even in the southeast. Not even in Texas.
<<Ren, you are implying that I must believe what is said here, although
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. >>
This stuns me. You will NOT encounter them unless you move where they are
or you join one of their churches.
There are state homeschooling conventions in southern states which are HUGE.
THOUSANDS of families. Vendors raking in money by selling them stuff to
guarantee that their children will learn, will be good Christians, will not
be exposed to evolution or multi-culturalism. Those conventions begin and
end with prayer. Many of the speakers are men beause of a Bible verse.
You don't have to believe me. But to say you don't believe me because you
haven't seen it is a weird response.
Sandra
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Dr. James Dobson's program in the mornings for a year and
you'll her it every eight weeks or so. Read any parenting website
for fundamentalist Christians, and spanking will be aprimary
tool discussed.
I've discovered by getting out of that world that there is a huge
population of Christians who don't identify with the
fundamentalist born again movement. I think they hardly know it
exists. Mainline denominations that are non-evangelical often
don't have an awreness that there are plenty of vocal Christians
who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and who take the
commandments therein literally (not open to interpretation).
Perhaps the term conservative is alarming since Debbie feels
she is a conservative person or is conservative politically or in
most of her Christian beliefs and therefore feels lumped into this
label.
But Christian fundamentalists (often evangelicals) use the terms
conservative and fundamentalist interchangeably and there is a
distinct movement that teaches these things. I was in it! (And the
parents who spank often are not angry people! I know so many
who aren't. They use it as a tool to train their children. I don't
happen to agree with it but I don't think assuming they are all
pathologically angry is accurate either. They sincerely believe
that they are being obedient to God and are raising godly kids.)
It is a movement that incorportes a lot more than spanking. Here
are some of the authors people read who hold this view:
Jonathan Lindvall
The Pearls (Debbie and what's his name)
Richard Fugate
Dr. James Dobson
Mary Pride
Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo
And scores more...
Julie B
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>writes:
> In a message dated 1/24/03 10:38:33 AM, Debbies4@c...
> << Ren, you are implying that I must believe what is said here,although
> I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservativetheir
> Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from
> churches. I have encountered fundamentalist christians whobelieve
> in spanking and other methods of "training" a child, but Icannot
> extrapolate those fundamentalist teachings to an entirepopulation of
> Christians. >>because you
>
> You don't have to believe me. But to say you don't believe me
> haven't seen it is a weird response.Come to a CHEO convention and you'll hear all about it. Turn on
Dr. James Dobson's program in the mornings for a year and
you'll her it every eight weeks or so. Read any parenting website
for fundamentalist Christians, and spanking will be aprimary
tool discussed.
I've discovered by getting out of that world that there is a huge
population of Christians who don't identify with the
fundamentalist born again movement. I think they hardly know it
exists. Mainline denominations that are non-evangelical often
don't have an awreness that there are plenty of vocal Christians
who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and who take the
commandments therein literally (not open to interpretation).
Perhaps the term conservative is alarming since Debbie feels
she is a conservative person or is conservative politically or in
most of her Christian beliefs and therefore feels lumped into this
label.
But Christian fundamentalists (often evangelicals) use the terms
conservative and fundamentalist interchangeably and there is a
distinct movement that teaches these things. I was in it! (And the
parents who spank often are not angry people! I know so many
who aren't. They use it as a tool to train their children. I don't
happen to agree with it but I don't think assuming they are all
pathologically angry is accurate either. They sincerely believe
that they are being obedient to God and are raising godly kids.)
It is a movement that incorportes a lot more than spanking. Here
are some of the authors people read who hold this view:
Jonathan Lindvall
The Pearls (Debbie and what's his name)
Richard Fugate
Dr. James Dobson
Mary Pride
Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo
And scores more...
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 1:04:23 PM, julie@... writes:
<< And the
parents who spank often are not angry people! I know so many
who aren't. They use it as a tool to train their children. I don't
happen to agree with it but I don't think assuming they are all
pathologically angry is accurate either. >>
I know.
My mom would never spank when she was angry. She waited until she was calm.
And she would tell us in advance how many swats. I don't remember it being
more than five or six, sometimes just two or three. And she would make us
bring the weapon and put it on her bed, and pull up our skirts, and bend
over/lie down on the bed, and wait.
And she wasn't even religious as an adult, but she was from a long line of
people whose religion required corporal punishment.
She thought if she spanked without anger, that it was no harm/no foul from
her. I had earned my "consequences" (she didn't use that word, but that's
exactly what she was thinking) and she was a hardly-involved party. This was
just between me and the plainly-earned spanking.
Lots of people say PROUDLY as though a great wisdom is on them, "Never strike
a child in anger."
WHAT!?
If you hit someone in a fury, that's understandable.
If you wait until you're calm and you do it ANYWAY, what the heck is THAT?
If a man catches his wife in bed with his best friend and kills them both
right on the spot, he's WAY more likely to get off than if he sees them,
waits a month, plans sneaky murders, and offs them in a subtle fashion. That
second example is just plain murder. The first is a crime of passion.
Sandra
<< And the
parents who spank often are not angry people! I know so many
who aren't. They use it as a tool to train their children. I don't
happen to agree with it but I don't think assuming they are all
pathologically angry is accurate either. >>
I know.
My mom would never spank when she was angry. She waited until she was calm.
And she would tell us in advance how many swats. I don't remember it being
more than five or six, sometimes just two or three. And she would make us
bring the weapon and put it on her bed, and pull up our skirts, and bend
over/lie down on the bed, and wait.
And she wasn't even religious as an adult, but she was from a long line of
people whose religion required corporal punishment.
She thought if she spanked without anger, that it was no harm/no foul from
her. I had earned my "consequences" (she didn't use that word, but that's
exactly what she was thinking) and she was a hardly-involved party. This was
just between me and the plainly-earned spanking.
Lots of people say PROUDLY as though a great wisdom is on them, "Never strike
a child in anger."
WHAT!?
If you hit someone in a fury, that's understandable.
If you wait until you're calm and you do it ANYWAY, what the heck is THAT?
If a man catches his wife in bed with his best friend and kills them both
right on the spot, he's WAY more likely to get off than if he sees them,
waits a month, plans sneaky murders, and offs them in a subtle fashion. That
second example is just plain murder. The first is a crime of passion.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 2:14:39 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< although
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. >>
So if you personally have not encountered it, it simply doesn't exist?
I am implying that you are sheltered from large populations that do indeed
exist. I live among thousands of them.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< although
I have not encountered any "huge population" of conservative
Christians who practice spanking because of coercion from their
churches. >>
So if you personally have not encountered it, it simply doesn't exist?
I am implying that you are sheltered from large populations that do indeed
exist. I live among thousands of them.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Barb Eaton
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 2:14:39 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< But Christian fundamentalists (often evangelicals) use the terms
conservative and fundamentalist interchangeably and there is a
distinct movement that teaches these things. I was in it! >>
Me too.
It is only in the last year, that I can speak up and say anything bad about
the church I was raised in.
Even after leaving and seeing how wrong it is, there is this huge amount of
loyalty brainwashed into you. I cringed when people called it a cult, but it
is. They didn't even identify themselves with the Christian fundamentalists
or any other Christian group as they are the ONLY right ones. Other
Christians are shunned even.
So now I can say it CULT, CULT, CULT!! So there.
And most of them think spanking is necessary and shows signs of being a good
parent.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< But Christian fundamentalists (often evangelicals) use the terms
conservative and fundamentalist interchangeably and there is a
distinct movement that teaches these things. I was in it! >>
Me too.
It is only in the last year, that I can speak up and say anything bad about
the church I was raised in.
Even after leaving and seeing how wrong it is, there is this huge amount of
loyalty brainwashed into you. I cringed when people called it a cult, but it
is. They didn't even identify themselves with the Christian fundamentalists
or any other Christian group as they are the ONLY right ones. Other
Christians are shunned even.
So now I can say it CULT, CULT, CULT!! So there.
And most of them think spanking is necessary and shows signs of being a good
parent.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/2003 7:04:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> WHAT!?In cold blood.
> If you hit someone in a fury, that's understandable.
> If you wait until you're calm and you do it ANYWAY, what the heck is THAT?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Barb Eaton <homemama@i...>
wrote:
Julie
wrote:
> Julie B,that his
> Are you in Ohio?
>
>
> Barb E
> "The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life
> anxious parents think he should live."Yep.
> A S Neill
Julie
Barb Eaton
Julie,
So where are you? I'm in columbus. Northend. I just knew your name
looked or sounded familiar.
Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill
So where are you? I'm in columbus. Northend. I just knew your name
looked or sounded familiar.
Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live."
A S Neill
Barb Eaton
Well that was real good! LOL! Time for bed for me. ;-)
Barb E
"We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty,
charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures
that we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open."
- Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India
on 1/24/03 10:51 PM, Barb Eaton at homemama@... wrote:
Barb E
"We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty,
charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures
that we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open."
- Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India
on 1/24/03 10:51 PM, Barb Eaton at homemama@... wrote:
> Julie,
> So where are you? I'm in columbus. Northend. I just knew your name
> looked or sounded familiar.
>
>
> Barb E
> "The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
> anxious parents think he should live."
> A S Neill
>
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Barb Eaton <homemama@i...>
wrote:
columbus at Charlotte Mason weekend workshops. I live in Cincinnati
so most of my speaking has been down this way (or out in California,
where I come from).
My business is called Brave Writer. Perhaps that's how you've heard
of me?
If not that, then all I can think is my prolific Internet postings!
LOL
Julie B
wrote:
> Julie,name
> So where are you? I'm in columbus. Northend. I just knew your
> looked or sounded familiar.that his
>
>
> Barb E
> "The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life
> anxious parents think he should live."I spoke at CHEO the last two years about writing. And I've spoken in
> A S Neill
columbus at Charlotte Mason weekend workshops. I live in Cincinnati
so most of my speaking has been down this way (or out in California,
where I come from).
My business is called Brave Writer. Perhaps that's how you've heard
of me?
If not that, then all I can think is my prolific Internet postings!
LOL
Julie B
Fetteroll
on 1/24/03 3:02 PM, Julie Bogart <julie@...> at
julie@... wrote:
fundamentalists existed as a small offshoot of Christianity. I had no clue
as to the sheer number of them and the control and influence they had over
communities (including homeschooling!) until I read through the message
boards of Mary Pride's magazine on AOL (I can't remember the name of it) and
debated the type of thinking they just assumed was standard for everyone.
Joyce
julie@... wrote:
> Mainline denominations that are non-evangelical oftenYup. I had no clue. Until I met them on the homeschooling boards. I knew
> don't have an awreness that there are plenty of vocal Christians
> who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and who take the
> commandments therein literally (not open to interpretation).
fundamentalists existed as a small offshoot of Christianity. I had no clue
as to the sheer number of them and the control and influence they had over
communities (including homeschooling!) until I read through the message
boards of Mary Pride's magazine on AOL (I can't remember the name of it) and
debated the type of thinking they just assumed was standard for everyone.
Joyce
Barb Eaton
Julie B,
That's it. :-) I had a friend that went to your workshop and enjoyed
your Brave Writer stuff. Thanks!
Barb E
The best preparation for the future is a happy today :-)
[Sandra Dodd]
on 1/24/03 11:06 PM, Julie Bogart <julie@...> at
julie@... wrote:
That's it. :-) I had a friend that went to your workshop and enjoyed
your Brave Writer stuff. Thanks!
Barb E
The best preparation for the future is a happy today :-)
[Sandra Dodd]
on 1/24/03 11:06 PM, Julie Bogart <julie@...> at
julie@... wrote:
>
> I spoke at CHEO the last two years about writing. And I've spoken in
> columbus at Charlotte Mason weekend workshops. I live in Cincinnati
> so most of my speaking has been down this way (or out in California,
> where I come from).
>
> My business is called Brave Writer. Perhaps that's how you've heard
> of me?
>
> If not that, then all I can think is my prolific Internet postings!
> LOL
>
> Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/03 6:48:57 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< I knew
fundamentalists existed as a small offshoot of Christianity. >>
Is it statistically a small offshoot?
THEY don't think so.
And it's my experience (and could be wrong) that when people are "active" in
a Presbyterian or Episcopal church, they're not NEARLY as active as an active
fundamentalist.
So even if the numbers were straight-across even (I have no idea of that),
the intensity and fervor and immersion of the fundamentalists–the WEIGHT of
the religiosity–seems much greater.
Sandra
<< I knew
fundamentalists existed as a small offshoot of Christianity. >>
Is it statistically a small offshoot?
THEY don't think so.
And it's my experience (and could be wrong) that when people are "active" in
a Presbyterian or Episcopal church, they're not NEARLY as active as an active
fundamentalist.
So even if the numbers were straight-across even (I have no idea of that),
the intensity and fervor and immersion of the fundamentalists–the WEIGHT of
the religiosity–seems much greater.
Sandra
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
accepting a blanket condemnation of conservative Christians as
spankers. Living in Pennsylvania (just outside Philadelphia), I was
having trouble conceptualizing my conservative Christian friends
(some of whom are Catholic, like myself) in the spanker mentality.
experienced throughout this thread, and I appreciate your perspective.
years ago, I visited a message board for MOTH, Managers of Their
Home, in my search for a way to pull a messy house under control
<g>. The book by the Pearls was discussed often and highly
recommended; and much of the discussion was disturbing. I never read
it...never felt that I needed to "train" my children. Basically, I
just wanted clean bathrooms on a regular basis <sigh>.
Thanks again, Julie.
Debbie
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
>Thank you, Julie. I think your comments explain why I've had trouble
> I've discovered by getting out of that world that there is a huge
> population of Christians who don't identify with the
> fundamentalist born again movement. I think they hardly know it
> exists. Mainline denominations that are non-evangelical often
> don't have an awreness that there are plenty of vocal Christians
> who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and who take the
> commandments therein literally (not open to interpretation).
>
accepting a blanket condemnation of conservative Christians as
spankers. Living in Pennsylvania (just outside Philadelphia), I was
having trouble conceptualizing my conservative Christian friends
(some of whom are Catholic, like myself) in the spanker mentality.
> But Christian fundamentalists (often evangelicals) use the termsI think this has been part of the misunderstanding I've witnessed and
> conservative and fundamentalist interchangeably and there is a
> distinct movement that teaches these things.
experienced throughout this thread, and I appreciate your perspective.
> It is a movement that incorportes a lot more than spanking. HereOther than James Dobson, this is the only name I recognize. A couple
> are some of the authors people read who hold this view:
>
> The Pearls (Debbie and what's his name)
years ago, I visited a message board for MOTH, Managers of Their
Home, in my search for a way to pull a messy house under control
<g>. The book by the Pearls was discussed often and highly
recommended; and much of the discussion was disturbing. I never read
it...never felt that I needed to "train" my children. Basically, I
just wanted clean bathrooms on a regular basis <sigh>.
Thanks again, Julie.
Debbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/03 10:20:28 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the first
man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. >>
So you're a Bible literalist? You don't believe any of those stories are
myths or meant to be taken allegorically?
Really?
I think the whole thing about woman being the first to sin was a way to keep
women oppressed and in line for centuries.....
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<<
Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the first
man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. >>
So you're a Bible literalist? You don't believe any of those stories are
myths or meant to be taken allegorically?
Really?
I think the whole thing about woman being the first to sin was a way to keep
women oppressed and in line for centuries.....
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Have a Nice Day!
And you want to know whats REALLy interesting?
Judaism does not teach original sin. And it teaches that because the woman was created last, she is a spiritually higher being.
Women are not required to attend synagogue for that reason, while men are required to attend, AND required to get married because they are spiritually inferior and need a woman to complete them.
Kristen
Judaism does not teach original sin. And it teaches that because the woman was created last, she is a spiritually higher being.
Women are not required to attend synagogue for that reason, while men are required to attend, AND required to get married because they are spiritually inferior and need a woman to complete them.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: starsuncloud@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 11:37 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking for eternity
In a message dated 1/25/03 10:20:28 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the first
man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. >>
So you're a Bible literalist? You don't believe any of those stories are
myths or meant to be taken allegorically?
Really?
I think the whole thing about woman being the first to sin was a way to keep
women oppressed and in line for centuries.....
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 1/25/03 10:24 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
that fundamentalism was small. Overall, I have not clue. But you're right,
if they are a small percent, their intensity certainly makes them seem like
they're a much bigger part of the pie.
Of course to them they're the whole pie ;-)
Joyce
> Is it statistically a small offshoot?In Pittsburgh and Boston it was and is. That's what gave me the impression
> THEY don't think so.
that fundamentalism was small. Overall, I have not clue. But you're right,
if they are a small percent, their intensity certainly makes them seem like
they're a much bigger part of the pie.
Of course to them they're the whole pie ;-)
Joyce
Liza Sabater
On Saturday, Jan 25, 2003, at 12:45 America/New_York, Have a Nice Day!
wrote:
to St Augustine as well. The Pauline letters are just utterly
puritanical but given the time they were written one can understand why.
I highly recommend reading anything written by Elaine Pagels.
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
> I think the whole thing about woman being the first to sin was a wayBlame St Paul for that and definitely chalk up a couple more demerits
> to keep
> women oppressed and in line for centuries.....
to St Augustine as well. The Pauline letters are just utterly
puritanical but given the time they were written one can understand why.
I highly recommend reading anything written by Elaine Pagels.
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85 <[email protected]>
> So you're a Bible literalist? You don't believe any of thosestories are
> myths or meant to be taken allegorically?way to keep
> Really?
> I think the whole thing about woman being the first to sin was a
> women oppressed and in line for centuries.....Ok, but if I weren't a Bible literalist, how would I know what to
believe? How would I know if I should believe in heaven or God at
all? And would I even be able to call myself a Christian anymore,
because what would I know to be true about Christ?
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/03 11:19:43 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< Ok, but if I weren't a Bible literalist, how would I know what to
believe? >>
Being a Bible literalist, how do you know what to believe?
I think you believe the parts that your particular church emphasizes. Those
things they have repeat-sermons on every year or so. The things they quote.
The verses in songs they often use.
That leaves out 80% (or much more) of the Bible.
And it doesn't matter which denomination or church, each has its 30 or 50
favorite passages. And they ignore the rest.
<<And would I even be able to call myself a Christian anymore,
because what would I know to be true about Christ? >>
People know what they believe.
Some people depend on what they see or directly experience.
Some go with repeated "test" of belief, holding it up against situations and
opposing theories.
Some take the word of someone(s) they've decided to trust.
Some go on faith, but faith is based on something too. Faith in what? Why?
<<How would I know if I should believe in heaven or God at all?>>
Over half the world isn't Christian, and also believes in God and some kind
of afterlife.
They're not only not Bible literalists, they're not even Bible owners.
Sandra
<< Ok, but if I weren't a Bible literalist, how would I know what to
believe? >>
Being a Bible literalist, how do you know what to believe?
I think you believe the parts that your particular church emphasizes. Those
things they have repeat-sermons on every year or so. The things they quote.
The verses in songs they often use.
That leaves out 80% (or much more) of the Bible.
And it doesn't matter which denomination or church, each has its 30 or 50
favorite passages. And they ignore the rest.
<<And would I even be able to call myself a Christian anymore,
because what would I know to be true about Christ? >>
People know what they believe.
Some people depend on what they see or directly experience.
Some go with repeated "test" of belief, holding it up against situations and
opposing theories.
Some take the word of someone(s) they've decided to trust.
Some go on faith, but faith is based on something too. Faith in what? Why?
<<How would I know if I should believe in heaven or God at all?>>
Over half the world isn't Christian, and also believes in God and some kind
of afterlife.
They're not only not Bible literalists, they're not even Bible owners.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 1/26/03 1:18 AM, kayb85 <sheran@...> at sheran@... wrote:
believe? (The thoughtful ones, at least, as opposed to the social and
cultural ones who are Christian just because it's familiar.)
They think about it. They discuss it. They read about it. They come to their
own conclusions.
It's pretty much the way scientists develop theories. They gather all the
information and look for patterns emerging and develop theories on the whys
and whats causing the patterns. As more information comes in, sometimes a
new pattern emerges and a new theory can be formulated. (Rarely completely
new, but a better and clearer understanding.)
It's the difference between knowing the answer already exists and knowing
that we don't know enough to know the ultimate answer but have the ability
-- and often the need and drive -- to get as close as we can with what we
know. It's needing to understand even while knowing that we can't be sure
we're right.
Don't you do the same with parenting and unschooling? There is no Bible for
either but you're still driven to figure out what is truth for you.
But why do you phrase it as "should"? As though it were some form of cosmic
etiquette?
I think most nonliteralist Christians, as well as thoughtful believers in
other faiths, believe what they do because it feels right in their hearts
and their heads and their whole being. And, come to think of it, it applies
to atheists too!
What if you ended up honestly and heartfeltfully believing something that
was wrong? What would happen here on earth? What would happen afterwards?
I think for nonliteralist Christians, the answer is God knows their hearts
and knows who is doing the best they can. I think for the nonliterlist, the
quest *isn't* to figure out what God wants them to do. They already know God
wants them to be good (to each other and themselves). (And to form a
relationship with God so He can help them.) So the quest is to figure out
how to put good into practice.
Joyce
> Ok, but if I weren't a Bible literalist, how would I know what toHow do you think the millions of nonliteralist Christians figure out what to
> believe?
believe? (The thoughtful ones, at least, as opposed to the social and
cultural ones who are Christian just because it's familiar.)
They think about it. They discuss it. They read about it. They come to their
own conclusions.
It's pretty much the way scientists develop theories. They gather all the
information and look for patterns emerging and develop theories on the whys
and whats causing the patterns. As more information comes in, sometimes a
new pattern emerges and a new theory can be formulated. (Rarely completely
new, but a better and clearer understanding.)
It's the difference between knowing the answer already exists and knowing
that we don't know enough to know the ultimate answer but have the ability
-- and often the need and drive -- to get as close as we can with what we
know. It's needing to understand even while knowing that we can't be sure
we're right.
Don't you do the same with parenting and unschooling? There is no Bible for
either but you're still driven to figure out what is truth for you.
> How would I know if I should believe in heaven or God at all?That's a question that's been asked for eternity!
But why do you phrase it as "should"? As though it were some form of cosmic
etiquette?
I think most nonliteralist Christians, as well as thoughtful believers in
other faiths, believe what they do because it feels right in their hearts
and their heads and their whole being. And, come to think of it, it applies
to atheists too!
> And would I even be able to call myself a Christian anymore,Is that ultimately what Christ wants? For you to know what's true?
> because what would I know to be true about Christ?
What if you ended up honestly and heartfeltfully believing something that
was wrong? What would happen here on earth? What would happen afterwards?
I think for nonliteralist Christians, the answer is God knows their hearts
and knows who is doing the best they can. I think for the nonliterlist, the
quest *isn't* to figure out what God wants them to do. They already know God
wants them to be good (to each other and themselves). (And to form a
relationship with God so He can help them.) So the quest is to figure out
how to put good into practice.
Joyce
Barb Eaton
Sheila,
Trust in your heart. When you beleive and except Jesus into your heart
he is there always. Natural curiousity also get you to look at what you
beleive and I beleive the Holy Spirit leads us to find those answers. I'm
almost ashamed of calling myself christian with the way I have seen so
called christians act and thing that are said. Being Christ like comes from
within. We show it is our actions and our lives. Jesus didn't beat anyone
over the head or drum it into people. You have to do this or that. Go here
or there to *get* anything. He also taught in parables many time. IMO it was
so we could get it on our own in our own way. I'm sure you remember the
story with the little children. Children are curious, trusting, full of
wonder, and want to learn. If we follow our heart, in Christ, _he_ will not
let his children go astray. I trust you will continue to beleive in him. He
sent the Holy Spirit to guide us. Let that be your guide. Man is oh so
fawlable. Look what they have done in Christs name. I've been so saddened by
the not at all Christ like behaviour that has been passed as how Christ
would be. Do you really see Jesus hitting _anyone_? Belittling? Berating?
Slander? How about the keeping separated from non beleivers? How in the
world can anyone see Christ in us if we keep ourselves only in company of
other beleivers? How can they see Christ in our actions and lives? He sure
didn't force himself or beleif in God on anyone. I don't exspect you to
answer any of these. It's just something to think about and ponder, pray
over. I wish you well in your journey adn the path you have chosen. God gave
us all free choice.
Well I'm not the best writer but I hope you understand my drift.(Can't
think of a bette word) :-)
Barb E
"What we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But if
that drop was not in the ocean, I think the ocean would be
less because of that missing drop. I do not agree with
the big way of doing things."
- Mother Theresa, Albanian Nun, Missionary
on 1/26/03 1:18 AM, kayb85 <sheran@...> at sheran@... wrote:
Trust in your heart. When you beleive and except Jesus into your heart
he is there always. Natural curiousity also get you to look at what you
beleive and I beleive the Holy Spirit leads us to find those answers. I'm
almost ashamed of calling myself christian with the way I have seen so
called christians act and thing that are said. Being Christ like comes from
within. We show it is our actions and our lives. Jesus didn't beat anyone
over the head or drum it into people. You have to do this or that. Go here
or there to *get* anything. He also taught in parables many time. IMO it was
so we could get it on our own in our own way. I'm sure you remember the
story with the little children. Children are curious, trusting, full of
wonder, and want to learn. If we follow our heart, in Christ, _he_ will not
let his children go astray. I trust you will continue to beleive in him. He
sent the Holy Spirit to guide us. Let that be your guide. Man is oh so
fawlable. Look what they have done in Christs name. I've been so saddened by
the not at all Christ like behaviour that has been passed as how Christ
would be. Do you really see Jesus hitting _anyone_? Belittling? Berating?
Slander? How about the keeping separated from non beleivers? How in the
world can anyone see Christ in us if we keep ourselves only in company of
other beleivers? How can they see Christ in our actions and lives? He sure
didn't force himself or beleif in God on anyone. I don't exspect you to
answer any of these. It's just something to think about and ponder, pray
over. I wish you well in your journey adn the path you have chosen. God gave
us all free choice.
Well I'm not the best writer but I hope you understand my drift.(Can't
think of a bette word) :-)
Barb E
"What we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But if
that drop was not in the ocean, I think the ocean would be
less because of that missing drop. I do not agree with
the big way of doing things."
- Mother Theresa, Albanian Nun, Missionary
on 1/26/03 1:18 AM, kayb85 <sheran@...> at sheran@... wrote:
> Ok, but if I weren't a Bible literalist, how would I know what to
> believe? How would I know if I should believe in heaven or God at
> all? And would I even be able to call myself a Christian anymore,
> because what would I know to be true about Christ?
>
> Sheila
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/03 4:12:13 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Ok, but if I weren't a Bible literalist, how would I know what to
believe? How would I know if I should believe in heaven or God at
all? And would I even be able to call myself a Christian anymore,
because what would I know to be true about Christ? >>
So you think the Bible has all the answers? What about your innate, God-given
abilities? What about trusting that YOU hold the answers.
How is it that folks like Abraham or Moses had divine answers? THEY didn't
have a Bible!! No one IN the Bible had the bible as it is today, but they
managed to have divine experiences and find their spirituality if you believe
those stories.
Just HOW did that happen?
Perhaps it is an innate thing for us to be spiritual beings. Perhaps (if you
believe in god) God is all around us, in us, part of us in ways that don't
need some man made book to tell us.
How is it that books Jesus wrote didn't make it into the Bible as it is
today. Do you not see how it has been twisted and turned by MAN'S desire to
control others?
If what Jesus wrote didn't get in,I don't see how any Christian can deny that
it is hugely affected by people!!
I see it just as I see the trust in unschooling. We are innately good, we
have all that we need within us to find god/spirituality. Institutions have
dulled our power and ability to trust ourselves. Including the institution of
church and the Bible.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< Ok, but if I weren't a Bible literalist, how would I know what to
believe? How would I know if I should believe in heaven or God at
all? And would I even be able to call myself a Christian anymore,
because what would I know to be true about Christ? >>
So you think the Bible has all the answers? What about your innate, God-given
abilities? What about trusting that YOU hold the answers.
How is it that folks like Abraham or Moses had divine answers? THEY didn't
have a Bible!! No one IN the Bible had the bible as it is today, but they
managed to have divine experiences and find their spirituality if you believe
those stories.
Just HOW did that happen?
Perhaps it is an innate thing for us to be spiritual beings. Perhaps (if you
believe in god) God is all around us, in us, part of us in ways that don't
need some man made book to tell us.
How is it that books Jesus wrote didn't make it into the Bible as it is
today. Do you not see how it has been twisted and turned by MAN'S desire to
control others?
If what Jesus wrote didn't get in,I don't see how any Christian can deny that
it is hugely affected by people!!
I see it just as I see the trust in unschooling. We are innately good, we
have all that we need within us to find god/spirituality. Institutions have
dulled our power and ability to trust ourselves. Including the institution of
church and the Bible.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/03 8:27:19 AM, homemama@... writes:
<< Do you really see Jesus hitting _anyone_? Belittling? Berating? >>
The moneylenders in the temple.
Pharisees. (Belittling)
That's off the top of my head.
And there will be much smiting, belitting and berating ("I know ye not" kind
of stuff) when Jesus comes again, if the literal apocalypse tales are to be
believed.
The rest of the points in your post, Barb E, were kind and good, but it's
worth being honest about the whole of Jesus' presentation in the Bible, I
think. He wasn't always just a peace'n'love guy. And those Christians who
do beleive they should hang around only with other beleivers have Bible
verses to justify that. And that's the basis of the Statement of Faith
homeschooling groups. They don't want their children's lives polluted by the
presence of even other kinds of Christians.
Sandra
Sandra
<< Do you really see Jesus hitting _anyone_? Belittling? Berating? >>
The moneylenders in the temple.
Pharisees. (Belittling)
That's off the top of my head.
And there will be much smiting, belitting and berating ("I know ye not" kind
of stuff) when Jesus comes again, if the literal apocalypse tales are to be
believed.
The rest of the points in your post, Barb E, were kind and good, but it's
worth being honest about the whole of Jesus' presentation in the Bible, I
think. He wasn't always just a peace'n'love guy. And those Christians who
do beleive they should hang around only with other beleivers have Bible
verses to justify that. And that's the basis of the Statement of Faith
homeschooling groups. They don't want their children's lives polluted by the
presence of even other kinds of Christians.
Sandra
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
<< Do you really see Jesus hitting _anyone_? Belittling? Berating? >>
The moneylenders in the temple.
Pharisees. (Belittling)
Interesting you should mention this. Here is another tid bit from Judaism:
The money lenders were supposed to be there because people were coming from all over with different kinds of currency and different needs. For those that lived too far from the Temple, they were permitted to buy their sacrifice at the Temple instead of carrying it with them and risking spoilage.
It was the money lenders that made it possible for them to do that.
I will try to find the reference in the "Old Testament" about that. Its been awhile since I looked that one up.
Kristen
That's off the top of my head.
And there will be much smiting, belitting and berating ("I know ye not" kind
of stuff) when Jesus comes again, if the literal apocalypse tales are to be
believed.
The rest of the points in your post, Barb E, were kind and good, but it's
worth being honest about the whole of Jesus' presentation in the Bible, I
think. He wasn't always just a peace'n'love guy. And those Christians who
do beleive they should hang around only with other beleivers have Bible
verses to justify that. And that's the basis of the Statement of Faith
homeschooling groups. They don't want their children's lives polluted by the
presence of even other kinds of Christians.
Sandra
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The moneylenders in the temple.
Pharisees. (Belittling)
Interesting you should mention this. Here is another tid bit from Judaism:
The money lenders were supposed to be there because people were coming from all over with different kinds of currency and different needs. For those that lived too far from the Temple, they were permitted to buy their sacrifice at the Temple instead of carrying it with them and risking spoilage.
It was the money lenders that made it possible for them to do that.
I will try to find the reference in the "Old Testament" about that. Its been awhile since I looked that one up.
Kristen
That's off the top of my head.
And there will be much smiting, belitting and berating ("I know ye not" kind
of stuff) when Jesus comes again, if the literal apocalypse tales are to be
believed.
The rest of the points in your post, Barb E, were kind and good, but it's
worth being honest about the whole of Jesus' presentation in the Bible, I
think. He wasn't always just a peace'n'love guy. And those Christians who
do beleive they should hang around only with other beleivers have Bible
verses to justify that. And that's the basis of the Statement of Faith
homeschooling groups. They don't want their children's lives polluted by the
presence of even other kinds of Christians.
Sandra
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]