[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/2003 1:31:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Debbies4@... writes:

> Perhaps if you defined "conservative Christian" I might understand
> your assertions.

Folks who take the bible, the church, and anyone associated with the church
at their word? Whose word is "law"?

Who WOULD spank their children because the church told them to. Or who
homeschool because the church told them to. Or wear certain clothes. Or not
read certain books.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

myfunny4 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:

> Folks who take the bible, the church, and anyone associated with
the church
> at their word? Whose word is "law"?
>
> Who WOULD spank their children because the church told them to. Or
who
> homeschool because the church told them to. Or wear certain
clothes. Or not
> read certain books.
>
> ~Kelly

Thanks, Kelly. I was beginning to suspect we were using different
idioms. Those "folks" are typically referred to as fundamentalists.
I understand your comments, now...and I agree, they definitely
believe that humiliation and degradation is part of character
training.

Thanks again for clearing that up.

Debbie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/2003 8:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:
> . As a matter of fact, most of them
> hate to spank their kids, but do it because they think it's the right
> thing to do.


And WHY do they think it's the right thing to do?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/23/2003 8:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sheran@p...
> writes:
> > . As a matter of fact, most of them
> > hate to spank their kids, but do it because they think it's the
right
> > thing to do.
>
>
> And WHY do they think it's the right thing to do?


Because leaders in the Christian community write books and preach
sermons about it being the right thing to do.
Sheila

Kelly

I think it goes back to the nature of children. Christians believe that children are born with a sin nature that must be 'corrected/chastised, etc'. That they're born 'being evil'.

I'm an Attachment Parenting advocate, so I believe that children are inherently good, or try to be, so therefore spanking wouldn't 'do' anything positive for me or my children.

Just my input!

Kelly

----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Spanking for Eternity WAS conservative homeschoo...


In a message dated 1/23/2003 8:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:
> . As a matter of fact, most of them
> hate to spank their kids, but do it because they think it's the right
> thing to do.


And WHY do they think it's the right thing to do?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

I believe that children are born with a sin nature, although I
believe that adults have a sin nature too. I figure that if adults
don't have people spanking them to force them to act well then
neither should children. :)
Sheila


--- In [email protected], Kelly <apmomto4@c...>
wrote:
> I think it goes back to the nature of children. Christians believe
that children are born with a sin nature that must
be 'corrected/chastised, etc'. That they're born 'being evil'.
>
> I'm an Attachment Parenting advocate, so I believe that children
are inherently good, or try to be, so therefore spanking
wouldn't 'do' anything positive for me or my children.
>
> Just my input!
>
> Kelly
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kbcdlovejo@a...
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Spanking for Eternity WAS
conservative homeschoo...
>
>
> In a message dated 1/23/2003 8:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sheran@p...
> writes:
> > . As a matter of fact, most of them
> > hate to spank their kids, but do it because they think it's the
right
> > thing to do.
>
>
> And WHY do they think it's the right thing to do?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
~~~~
>
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
address an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 8:28:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> I don't necessarily agree with you. Most Christians who spank have
> read James Dobson's books on child discipline. His books definitely
> encourage people NOT to spank out of anger. He instructs parents to
> calmly and lovingly sit down with their kids and explain what they
> did that was disobedient, to spank them, and to tell the kids that
> they love them. I know many parents who spank, who truly love their
> kids and are dedicated to being the best possible parents they can
> be. It's just that they think that spanking is one of the best
> things they can do for their kids. As a matter of fact, most of them
> hate to spank their kids, but do it because they think it's the right
> thing to do.
>
>

I know my mother spanked, was a Christian but was never told it was the right
thing to do etc. Never had any church pressure to spank. I know many
members of our church that did not spank and didn't believe that it was the
right thing to do. Having said that I know several parents that do spank but
not out of anger. They are very scheduled about it. Maybe not the best
wording. The children know exactly how many spanks a certain offense
carries. I have heard the mother say. "You know you aren't supposed to be
on the outside of the jungle gym that will be 3 spanks when we get home.
They total up the day and dad (the minister) spanks them at the end of the
day. Sad really. Not a church I go to just a mother I have met. I am one
of those unchurching people.
Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

What is up with that *sin nature*? That saying really rubs me the wrong
way. Can you explain to me why you think/how you can think that sweet
little babies and small children have a sin nature? I just don't get that.

Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson




Sheila wrote:
I believe that children are born with a sin nature, although I
believe that adults have a sin nature too. I figure that if adults
don't have people spanking them to force them to act well then
neither should children. :)
Sheila


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/2003 11:46:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> You haven't been around many fundamentalists if you think finding another
> church is an easy option. And there are some parts of the country and some
>
> social circles where one could go a long way and only find other churches
> with the same basic beliefs, practices, and even church schedules. 7:00
> Wednesday night is prayer meeting. There's a mini rush-hour because SO
> many
> people are going to prayer meeting.

Where do you live, Deborah? Here in SC, NOTHING can be planned for
homeschoolers on Wednesday nights because of the prayer meetings. (Our
unschooling group is a bit more----relaxed! <G>) Homeschool skate was mostly
Christian music (until several complained). Here, it's not unusual to hear,
"If you're not learning, you're CLEANING! Now get BUSY!" Spanking's the rule.
So many smacks for such-and-such offense---said loudly for all to hear. Just
so everyone knows that Mom's a real disciplinarian. NOTHING can be planned
for homeschoolers until after 1:00 (they're too busy filling in their
Sonlight/Abeka/BobJones workbooks). Spankings or no fun if they're not
completed correctly. Really!

I'm sure it depends on where you live. But we have some Catholics here (very
good friends) that spank. Mom doesn't hit hard. Dad does. Duncan doesn't
really like to spend the night anymore because they've struck him!!! I can't
blame him. I told the mom in no uncertain terms that that was unacceptable
with MY son. I've tried to explain it's not OK with her boys (almost 7 and 4)
but I have no jurisdiction there.

Her boys are sneaky and conniving---at 4 and 6!
We all do what we must to survive. Lying happens naturally when you're
protecting your body from pain. I've exlained here that no one will be
struck. That includes each other, which they do with regularity. But they
don't lie here nearly as often as at home. 'Cause they won't get into trouble
here.

Mom & Dad were spanked (mom was admittedly physically and emotionally
abused), and THEY turned out OK. They both attended Catholic schools. More
corporal punishment. MANY churches OK striking children. The average Joe
BELIEVES what he's told in church, whether YOU're willing to believe that or
not.

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jodi

From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
>MANY churches OK striking children. The average Joe
> BELIEVES what he's told in church, whether YOU're willing to believe that
or > not.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned. The Church leaders may also advise you
not to tell people that you use the rod as correction. I know that is what
they said in our parenting study. I think the exact wording was you have to
be careful who you tell (about using the rod for correction) since people
who aren't Christians, or more specifically aren't fundamentalists, may not
understand and may report you. Pretty sad really but they did stress that
point. So people may not even be honest with you if you ask them if they
spank. We are in New England so Fundamentalism isn't as prevalent as in the
bible belt but it's still there and almost all of the people I personally
know, who follow that religion do spank. Plus when you are in that sort of
Church it is easier than you might think to fall prey to thier teachings,
you don't always realize it is happening until you are away from the
situation.

Jodi M. in NH

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/03 1:35:06 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Her boys are sneaky and conniving---at 4 and 6!
We all do what we must to survive. Lying happens naturally when you're
protecting your body from pain. >>

The lyingest child I have known since I've been a mother was also the most
spanked.
I'm sure they would say they spanked her for lying. But she lied to avoid
spankings, and to get to do at least SOME things on her own.

She involved Holly in a couple of lies. I could see it at a distance,
because since Holly doesn't lie, her eyes and posture gave away that what she
was hearing wasn't true but she didn't know what to do about it.

Just New Year's Eve a girl about Holly's age was incredulous that Holly is
never punished and never lies. She said since I don't punish her she could
lie a lot! The girl thought that was a great advantage, being able to lie
without fear of punishment. Then Holly was the incredulous one.

Sandra

Barb Eaton

Where exactly is the Bible Belt? I'm guessing Ohio is in it. ;-)

Barb E
"He who is ashamed of asking is ashamed of learning."

- Danish Proverb

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/03 11:53:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> They actually suggest setting a child up, so that you can "train" him
> (with a switch) not to touch things that he shouldn't. That way your
> children will obey you in public, and people will marvel at your well
> behaved children:
>

Yeah, that sounds typcical .. I remember one time hearing that one should
"look for opportunities throughout the day to thwart the will of your child"
( this was for infants and toddlers!!) Anna was here reading over my
shoulder.. She read the excerpt from the text that was posted. She was
appalled.. She said. "Moma, thats like training a dog" She went on to
compare it to Landon training Joy( our Lab).. to sit, stay, OFF, Down, NO..
etc.. Anna even felt bad for Joy when Landon trained her to heel by yanking
on her leash. I'm glad that my kids have never had to be "trained" like
dogs. ( despite that we live in the Bible Belt.. lol) I have spanked my
kids.. But, it was out of anger, frustration, and on impulse.( just like
someone else commented. again, cant recall who) I never felt worse than
after those incidents. I attribute those misjudgings to immaturity, and
just not having the skills to know what else to do. I havent spanked in a
long time. The advice to never spank is anger has always been good for
me.. Because, it never fails, after my anger calms, I wouldnt dream of
spanking my children. ( thats how I have avoided spanking them since I
"stopped") My anger scared me ( and them, of course).so I vowed to never
spank in anger.. Well, when the anger was gone, so was the impulse to spank.
I agree, doing it in calm, calculated way seems even more "cold blooded".
And the "training exercises". thats just plain stupid.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

I had gotten the Pear's book on "To train up a Child" and "No Greater Joy".

I tried it for about a week...maybe less. It just felt very wrong to "set children up" like that, just to hurt them. What on earth kind of message does that send? Obedience gets the gold, disobedience doesn't, and either way there is no real love involved.

I think I burned those books. Can't remember.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: grlynbl@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Spanking for Eternity WAS conservative homeschoo...


In a message dated 1/24/03 11:53:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> They actually suggest setting a child up, so that you can "train" him
> (with a switch) not to touch things that he shouldn't. That way your
> children will obey you in public, and people will marvel at your well
> behaved children:
>

Yeah, that sounds typcical .. I remember one time hearing that one should
"look for opportunities throughout the day to thwart the will of your child"
( this was for infants and toddlers!!) Anna was here reading over my
shoulder.. She read the excerpt from the text that was posted. She was
appalled.. She said. "Moma, thats like training a dog" She went on to
compare it to Landon training Joy( our Lab).. to sit, stay, OFF, Down, NO..
etc.. Anna even felt bad for Joy when Landon trained her to heel by yanking
on her leash. I'm glad that my kids have never had to be "trained" like
dogs. ( despite that we live in the Bible Belt.. lol) I have spanked my
kids.. But, it was out of anger, frustration, and on impulse.( just like
someone else commented. again, cant recall who) I never felt worse than
after those incidents. I attribute those misjudgings to immaturity, and
just not having the skills to know what else to do. I havent spanked in a
long time. The advice to never spank is anger has always been good for
me.. Because, it never fails, after my anger calms, I wouldnt dream of
spanking my children. ( thats how I have avoided spanking them since I
"stopped") My anger scared me ( and them, of course).so I vowed to never
spank in anger.. Well, when the anger was gone, so was the impulse to spank.
I agree, doing it in calm, calculated way seems even more "cold blooded".
And the "training exercises". thats just plain stupid.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Angela"
<unschooling@p...> wrote:
> What is up with that *sin nature*? That saying really rubs me the
wrong
> way. Can you explain to me why you think/how you can think that
sweet
> little babies and small children have a sin nature? I just don't
get that.

Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the first
man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. Adam and Eve
used to have natures that were immortal, they never had to experience
sickness and death, and they never knew what it was like to sin (do
things that cause them to be out of fellowship with God). When they
chose to disobey God, the perfection of the garden of eden was over
and sickness and sin entered the human race. There will come a time
when Jesus will take all of our sickness and sin away.

Sheila

Shyrley

"kayb85 " wrote:

> --- In [email protected], "Angela"
> <unschooling@p...> wrote:
> > What is up with that *sin nature*? That saying really rubs me the
> wrong
> > way. Can you explain to me why you think/how you can think that
> sweet
> > little babies and small children have a sin nature? I just don't
> get that.
>
> Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the first
> man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. Adam and Eve
> used to have natures that were immortal, they never had to experience
> sickness and death, and they never knew what it was like to sin (do
> things that cause them to be out of fellowship with God). When they
> chose to disobey God, the perfection of the garden of eden was over
> and sickness and sin entered the human race. There will come a time
> when Jesus will take all of our sickness and sin away.
>
> Sheila
>

I thought his sacrifice had all ready done that? So some fundie told me the other day.

Shyrley who can't keep track of all these different types of Christian

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Shyrley
<shyrley.williams@v...> wrote:
>
>
> "kayb85 " wrote:
>
> > --- In [email protected], "Angela"
> > <unschooling@p...> wrote:
> > > What is up with that *sin nature*? That saying really rubs me
the
> > wrong
> > > way. Can you explain to me why you think/how you can think that
> > sweet
> > > little babies and small children have a sin nature? I just
don't
> > get that.
> >
> > Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the
first
> > man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. Adam and
Eve
> > used to have natures that were immortal, they never had to
experience
> > sickness and death, and they never knew what it was like to sin
(do
> > things that cause them to be out of fellowship with God). When
they
> > chose to disobey God, the perfection of the garden of eden was
over
> > and sickness and sin entered the human race. There will come a
time
> > when Jesus will take all of our sickness and sin away.
> >
> > Sheila
> >
>
> I thought his sacrifice had all ready done that? So some fundie
told me the other day.

If we accept him as Lord and Savior.
Sheila

Shyrley

"kayb85 " wrote:

> > > Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the
> first
> > > man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. Adam and
> Eve
> > > used to have natures that were immortal, they never had to
> experience
> > > sickness and death, and they never knew what it was like to sin
> (do
> > > things that cause them to be out of fellowship with God). When
> they
> > > chose to disobey God, the perfection of the garden of eden was
> over
> > > and sickness and sin entered the human race. There will come a
> time
> > > when Jesus will take all of our sickness and sin away.
> > >
> > > Sheila
> > >
> >
> > I thought his sacrifice had all ready done that? So some fundie
> told me the other day.
>
> If we accept him as Lord and Savior.
> Sheila
>

Ah, the catch.
Well, I'm descended from 'the other people' not Adam and Eve so I don't have no truck with that sin nature thing.

Shyrley

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/03 8:53:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:


> He had trained many a horse or mule and knew
> the value of patient perseverance. In the end, the twelve-month-old
> submitted his will to his father, sat as he was placed, and became
> content—even cheerful."
>
> Sheila
>

:::shudder:::
I spent about 20 years in this mindset of raising children. It made sense to
me, mainly because I didn't have children of my own then. The first time I
spanked my own child I began to question.

How do they allow themselves to see their children on the same level as
mules? Never mind that even animals are better trained without hitting.

Kris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/03 9:30:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
litlrooh@... writes:


> I think I burned those books. Can't remember.
>
> Kristen
>

When I sorted through my mountain of books during my last move (almost 5
years ago) I came across some Dobson books. I had put them in with the books
I was giving away then later plucked them back out and put them in the trash.
Lanora asked why I was throwing away books (she has the same love for them
that I do) and I explained that they taught parents to spank their kids. She
replied "Oh" with that "nuff said" finality in her voice.

Kris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephanie Elms

> When I sorted through my mountain of books during my last
> move (almost 5
> years ago) I came across some Dobson books. I had put them
> in with the books
> I was giving away then later plucked them back out and put
> them in the trash.

I thought that I was the only one who did that! A friend had given
me Babywise (by the Ezzos - uck!) so I could see how awful it was
(she had picked it up at a used book store to see what the fuss
was about). I read parts and could not believe it. I tore it up
and recycled it...could not bring myself to put it back into
circulation...

I am currently searching out a new family dr because the one that we
had has been pushing Dobson (john not linda!) ever since he found
out that we were hsing...ugh.

Stephanie E.

Angela

Sheila,
What I am wondering, is if you think that kids choose bad behavior naturally
before kindness, love, sharing, etc. (because they have a sin nature) and if
you didn't train/teach them to be nice, kind, sharing, etc., then they would
be like lord of the flies kids? The purest love I have ever seen has come
from my kids. The stuff they do that is less than *nice* they have learned.


Angela in Maine


Sheila wrote:
Well, here's what I believe the Bible teaches. Ever since the first
man sinned, human beings are born in need of salvation. Adam and Eve
used to have natures that were immortal, they never had to experience
sickness and death, and they never knew what it was like to sin (do
things that cause them to be out of fellowship with God). When they
chose to disobey God, the perfection of the garden of eden was over
and sickness and sin entered the human race. There will come a time
when Jesus will take all of our sickness and sin away.

Sheila


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]