Lynda

We were just chatting about the realities of socialization on a couple of
lists this week. The reality is that these oh so important friendships
that are going to last a life time, don't! Studies, which ps of course
never uses or it would ruin their argument, show that rarely do
relationships stay static and most folks move on. Several hundred people
were interviewed in each study and it was found that unless someone was
born, raised and lived their whole life in the same town and the same
applied to their "best friend," most people couldn't even name their "best
friend" from grades K-3. Although some folks could name "a" friend or two
from 4-6, most couldn't. The friends folks had in 7-9 rarely translated to
lasting friendships through high school. AND, most folks had lost contact
with anyone they went to high school with within 2 to 3 years after leaving
school unless, again, they lived in the same town for life and had business
dealings with these folks.

It has also been found that it isn't the "quantity" of folks one knows but
the "quality" of the friendships and the variety of folks one knows.
Sooooo, since most hsing kids meet a wide variety of people, interact with
a wide variety of people and have at least one good little friend when they
are kids, they more than meet the criteria for needed socialization!

Lynda
-----------
I am pretty much sold on hs/unschooling. My husband is not. He's
> concerned about our son not playing enough with other children.
> We go to a playgroup every week for homeschoolers. He's in a kindermusik
> class weekly, does swimming weekly soon and I'm going to enroll him in a
> class at the rec center. I do think we could do more individual
playdates
> and play more with the neighborhood kids-
> Any suggestions/rebuttals(to my husband's concern) are welcome.
> Thanks!
> Cordelia Schaffer
> mailto:cordelia@...
>
>
>
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Cordelia Schaffer

Hi
I am new to this list. I'm Cordelia, I have two sons, Jeff is 5, and Leif
is 2. I am pretty much sold on hs/unschooling. My husband is not. He's
concerned about our son not playing enough with other children.
We go to a playgroup every week for homeschoolers. He's in a kindermusik
class weekly, does swimming weekly soon and I'm going to enroll him in a
class at the rec center. I do think we could do more individual playdates
and play more with the neighborhood kids-
Any suggestions/rebuttals(to my husband's concern) are welcome.
Thanks!
Cordelia Schaffer
mailto:cordelia@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/12/2000 8:40:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
cordelia@... writes:

<< I am pretty much sold on hs/unschooling. My husband is not. He's
concerned about our son not playing enough with other children. >>


OK -- so he will be taking 3 classes -- maybe he will meet a couple of
buddies there. Rome wasn't built in a day though -- he may not actually meet
his best friend in the next 3 months. Life isn't that organized. I don't
meet people just because we are all the same age (OK -- all 42 yo moms line
up over here -- now, be friends.) and I'm sure your husband doesn't either.
Your son will find his way and it sounds, to me, that you are offering enough
opportunities. I am more concerned, around here, about running around and
trying to do too much. My kids are still young (6 1/2 and 5) and you can
just see that as 1 activity clicks and then you add another (some will stick
and some not) -- eventuall you could be trying to do too much. Balancing
act time!

Take care. You're doing great!

Nance

A. Yates

My husband, too, was a bit worried about that. I was too until I read
everything I could get my hands on. Suddenly I realized that socialization is
all interaction with anyone. My kids go everywhere with me, and they get to
see and interact with everyone I do, so I think they will be just fine. It
helps to think of socialization as living. My husband just needed some
time... Is your husband willing to give some time? He will see after a bit
that your kids are just fine (really even better socially than school kids)
Another thing that helped my hubby was to meet a couple of homeschooled teens
and older. He was so impressed with them, that I never heard another doubt.
A

Cordelia Schaffer wrote:

> From: "Cordelia Schaffer" <cordelia@...>
>
> Hi
> I am new to this list. I'm Cordelia, I have two sons, Jeff is 5, and Leif
> is 2. I am pretty much sold on hs/unschooling. My husband is not. He's
> concerned about our son not playing enough with other children.
> We go to a playgroup every week for homeschoolers. He's in a kindermusik
> class weekly, does swimming weekly soon and I'm going to enroll him in a
> class at the rec center. I do think we could do more individual playdates
> and play more with the neighborhood kids-
> Any suggestions/rebuttals(to my husband's concern) are welcome.
> Thanks!
> Cordelia Schaffer
> mailto:cordelia@...
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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Brynn Panchot

Cordelia,

You are doing more right now as far as 'socialization' than we are. We (me,
9yods, 4yodd) CHERISH our time at home with each other. Imho, socialization
is so overrated. There is a fine line between socialization and peer
dependency. As long as you are listening to what your children seem to need,
play it by ear and do what feels right. Your children are so young, and at
such wonderful ages for all of you spend so much time together.

There was a quote I read, I don't remember where I read it but it went
something like this. The question of socialization came up, and a woman
replied "Well, at first it was a real problem, but now that we've cut back
on some visiting and playdates, I think we've got it under control" :-)

Best wishes to you,

Brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Cordelia Schaffer [mailto:cordelia@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Socialization issue?


From: "Cordelia Schaffer" <cordelia@...>

Hi
I am new to this list. I'm Cordelia, I have two sons, Jeff is 5, and Leif
is 2. I am pretty much sold on hs/unschooling. My husband is not. He's
concerned about our son not playing enough with other children.
We go to a playgroup every week for homeschoolers. He's in a kindermusik
class weekly, does swimming weekly soon and I'm going to enroll him in a
class at the rec center. I do think we could do more individual playdates
and play more with the neighborhood kids-
Any suggestions/rebuttals(to my husband's concern) are welcome.
Thanks!
Cordelia Schaffer
mailto:cordelia@...



--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Cordelia Schaffer

Thanks, everyone for the input on socialization. I appreciate the warm
welcome & look forward to more interesting conversation.
Cordelia Schaffer
mailto:cordelia@...

[email protected]

>> There was a quote I read, I don't remember where I read it but it
> went something like this. The question of socialization came up, and a
> woman replied "Well, at first it was a real problem, but now that we've

> cut back on some visiting and playdates, I think we've got it under
control"
> :-)

I've also heard this reply when socialization comes up: "That is WHY we
homeschool"
Mary Ellen
The darn trouble with cleaning the house is it gets dirty the next day
anyway,
so skip a week if you have to. The children are the most important
thing.
--Barbara Bush

________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]

FUN NEWS did an issue on Socialization that I found very helpful. It was
issue #2 Winter 1995. I hope this address is current:
http://members.aol.com/FUNNews

Mary Ellen
The darn trouble with cleaning the house is it gets dirty the next day
anyway,
so skip a week if you have to. The children are the most important
thing.
--Barbara Bush

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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FUN (Billy & Nancy)

Our web site is now http://www.unschooling.org Thanks for the mention!

BTW, great quote!

Nancy G.
http://www.unschooling.org
http://www.FUN-Books.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: megates@... [mailto:megates@...]
>
> FUN NEWS did an issue on Socialization that I found very helpful. It was
> issue #2 Winter 1995. I hope this address is current:
> http://members.aol.com/FUNNews
>
> Mary Ellen
> The darn trouble with cleaning the house is it gets dirty the next day
> anyway,
> so skip a week if you have to. The children are the most important
> thing.
> --Barbara Bush

Thad Martin

Brynn Panchot wrote:

> Cordelia,
>
> You are doing more right now as far as 'socialization' than we are. We (me,
> 9yods, 4yodd) CHERISH our time at home with each other. Imho, socialization
> is so overrated. There is a fine line between socialization and peer
> dependency. As long as you are listening to what your children seem to need,
> play it by ear and do what feels right. Your children are so young, and at
> such wonderful ages for all of you spend so much time together.
>
> There was a quote I read, I don't remember where I read it but it went
> something like this. The question of socialization came up, and a woman
> replied "Well, at first it was a real problem, but now that we've cut back
> on some visiting and playdates, I think we've got it under control" :-)
>
> Best wishes to you,
>
> Brynn
>

i agree with everything you said. i have a friend whose husband really pushed
her to be constantly 'doing & going' with their daughter, since the time she
was born, and now her daughter is always demanding to have external
entertainment and is never really happy at home especially without some
organized activity or friends visiting. it made me think that too much outside
stimulation creates dependency on that stimulation.

our son, rene' (4 yo) has had very little socializing (due to a 2 1/2 year
illness of mine - vaccine related autoimmune disease) and i think it worked out
great because we bonded as a family without a lot of external distractions. he
loves his friends but seeing them at the park once a week seems to be enough
for him. we talk and play and spend time together but do separate things as
well (though in close proximity). most everything we do involves him (with the
exception of "coffee' in the morning - we try to keep an hour or so for us to
talk without rene':) and at park days we're both (my husband (he arranged his
work schedule to allow time to come) and i) out there playing with all the
kids. i realize that peer groups are fun, for both adults and kids but to me
the time zips by and soon enough they will be leaving and not having time to
spend with their parents so why rush it.

the benefits a really tight family bond can have
in comparison to the kids being gone all of the time and their main
influence being other kids rather than you and him, he will believe. :-)

i think that the more kids are bonded with their parents, the more they are
comfortable with themselves and who they are. therefore 'socialization' just
happens because your world view is one of love, kindness and acceptance;
frustration followed by resolution; and a deep understanding that everyone has
needs and if we pay attention and really care about each other everyone's needs
will be met. i've been to a few same age events and honestly i don't see it as
that positive - power struggles seem to erupt very quickly. at the park days
we attend, the group is very diverse in age and i find that basically the same
thing happens - power struggles and dominance issues abound (early stages of
"lord of the flies') but if adults get actively involved and have fun playing
( not taking a dominate position and leading/directing but providing gentle
boundaries and reminders that others have feelings and desires as well) then
quality socialization can be experience by the kids.

-susan
austin,tx

[email protected]

Most children make most of their friends in school simply because this is
where they spend most of their time. Many genuises and very focused
people had somewhat isolated childhoods due to illnesses that kept them
home from school a lot or due to living in isolated areas.
My 7 yr old love, love, loves to be with other children. Begs to play
with friends. Often ends up with a new friend if we are at the park or
somewhere. She made a new friend while skiing over the holidays. But
after too much time with friends, she is less pleasant to her family. We
sometimes need a long stretch of down time for her to remember how to
entertain herself. But she is in frequent demand in our neighborhood.
(Maybe the fact that we are not enrolled in constant classes is a factor
- we are home a lot.)
Mary Ellen
The darn trouble with cleaning the house is it gets dirty the next day
anyway,
so skip a week if you have to. The children are the most important
thing.
--Barbara Bush

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/16/2000 3:16:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
megates@... writes:

<< (Maybe the fact that we are not enrolled in constant classes is a factor
- we are home a lot.)
Mary Ellen >>

Mary Ellen,
I enjoyed reading your post on this subject because it sounds like
you are the antithesis of what I have let happen in my family. I have gotten
better about not finding a new class every month<grin>, but I still struggle
with this issue on an almost daily basis. I won't list our schedule here,
but suffice it to say that we maybe have one or two totally "at-home" days a
week. On the one hand, I feel a need to provide these opportunities to my
daughter, but I also feel burn-out on the horizon. Complicating factors for
me include a one year son who rarely naps for more than 30-45 minutes the
entire day and the fact that we are out in the country which means that we
have to drive at least 15 minutes to be anywhere. I really want to be home
more, but there are so many enrichment opportunites out there. I feel guilty
if we don't take advantage of them, yet realize we are limited by time, money
and attention span.
Do you mind sharing your philosophy of outside activities and how you
buck the notion that we are supposed to be generously providing them for our
kids? Could you or anyone else provide any wisdom on how I find get this
feeling under control--the feeling that the more enrichment classes my DS
attends the better? Of course, my last statement is somewhat of an
exaggeration, but I really struggle to fight this feeling.
BTW, I don't think I've officially introduced myself--I live in NC,
my daughter is seven, and this list is a lifeline for me. Until about a year
ago, I didn't know what kind of HSer I was, but I knew that I just couldn't
force myself to buy a canned curriculum and "do school." I guess I'm a baby
unschooler and I learn a lot here--there are almost no unschoolers in my
HSing community.
Thanks for listening.
Jenny

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>From: Crjjss@...
it sounds like
>you are the antithesis of what I have let happen in my family. I have
gotten
>better about not finding a new class every month<grin>, but I still
struggle
>with this issue on an almost daily basis. I won't list our schedule here,
>but suffice it to say that we maybe have one or two totally "at-home" days a
>week. ... I really want to be home
>more, but there are so many enrichment opportunites out there. I feel
guilty
>if we don't take advantage of them, yet realize we are limited by time,
money
>and attention span.
> Do you mind sharing your philosophy of outside activities and how
you
>buck the notion that we are supposed to be generously providing them for our
>kids? Could you or anyone else provide any wisdom on how I find get this
>feeling under control--

Hi Jennie,

We are "at home" people as well. We used to attend a playgroup once a
week, but that was too much for all of us for various reasons, so now we
are just at home. My kids are 3 and almost 2, and really enjoy the time at
home. They both nap for two hours in the afternoon most days, and we spend
our days playing together (or them playing on their own, which I think is
important too.) Since outings are hard with two little ones who sometimes
need to be carried and still think it's funny to run away from me, we go
out when Daddy is home in the evenings, as a family.

Trips to the grocery store mean two carts for two kiddies with two adults
pushing them. If only one adult is going out somewhere, than the boys take
turns getting to go with us (shopping, running errands, etc.) In the cold
weather we are indoors now, but when it is warmer we also go to the park on
the corner or to the river a few blocks away to feed the birds. We enjoy
having friends over on an individual basis once in a while, or going to
their houses. I think that it is very important for them at this age to
learn how to entertain themselves, how to get along with family, how to
have quiet time, and all the other life skills they are working on like
table manners, and being polite and kind to others, etc. We don't have any
interest right now in potty training aside from talking about it, and I am
not pushing them. They know where their potty is and can go whenever they
like and occasionally want to sit on it, but have not actually used it yet.

As far as enrichment opportunites, my three year old can recognize his and
his brother's name in print; is learning his colors (knows blue, red and
green,) knows the names of and how to play with various musical
instruments; knows some shapes; knows some letters; can do puzzles by
himself; knows how to do laundry; knows how to wash his hands and brush his
teeth; knows many songs (Like Itsy Bitsy Spider) and many stories by heart;
can recognize and name all types of construction equipment, animals, and
vehicles; says bless you, thank you, you're welcome, I'm sorry and please
automatically, to name a few of his skills. All of this is without ever
attending any sort of classes, and never "working" with him on any of these
skills. We simply show by example, answer his questions, read to him, and
play together. Lately he has been asking the color of everything and is
beginning to tell me what color something is (and get it right.) His
social skills are pretty advanced for a child his age, and I have even had
strangers comment on how friendly and articulate he is.

My "baby" is a much quieter type of person and does not talk nearly as
much, but he is learning many things by copying his brother, whom he
obviously idolizes. They play really well together and are very
affectionate with each other. As they get older I will take my cues from
them about how much and what types of social activities they would like to
get involved in, but I still will reserve the right to veto something or
make them choose if it is too much, for them or for me.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

Hi Jenny,
My oldest is 7 too. We are stumbling along, learning as we go. I find
reading very helpful - Growing Without Schooling & Home Education
Magazine, among others, + books on the topic. I do have some unschooling
friends. I'm very lucky!

My newest thing that I'm really focusing on is, if we are not "doing
school" what are we doing? I personally am annoyed by so many of the
crafts and what not for kids to do that produce junk IMHO. (No offense
to people who enjoy these things - they just seem so contrived to me) So
I am trying to steer my kids toward doing real things - like learning to
sew. Which has led me to look closer at how I spend my time. What am I
doing that is meaningful?

That's one of the great things about this list, hearing how others are
living!
Mary Ellen

> From: Crjjss@...
> BTW, I don't think I've officially introduced myself--I live
> in NC,
> my daughter is seven, and this list is a lifeline for me. Until
> about a year
> ago, I didn't know what kind of HSer I was, but I knew that I just
> couldn't
> force myself to buy a canned curriculum and "do school." I guess
> I'm a baby
> unschooler and I learn a lot here--there are almost no unschoolers
> in my
> HSing community.
> Thanks for listening.

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/2000 1:06:49 PM Central Standard Time,
megates@... writes:

<< I personally am annoyed by so many of the
crafts and what not for kids to do that produce junk IMHO. (No offense
to people who enjoy these things - they just seem so contrived to me) >>
I agree with you 100%. I can't stand the idea of producing "stuff" just for
the sake of production. Almost every bit of that junk gets thrown away in
our house. Sewing, carpentry, cooking - these all give our little people a
sense of creating and accomplishment, and the end product is something
"real".

**** Kim ****
runs with scissors

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/21/2000 11:06:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
megates@... writes:

<< That's one of the great things about this list, hearing how others are
living! >>

Thanks Mary Ellen and everyone else who contributed to the outside
activities/socialization discussion. I agree with you about the list--I look
forward to reading every post.
Jenny in NC