bedtime schedules
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
attractive.
If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have no
reason to fight her own biological responses.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
attractive.
If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have no
reason to fight her own biological responses.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Have a Nice Day!
----- Original Message -----
From: starsuncloud@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:28 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
attractive.
If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have no
reason to fight her own biological responses.<<<
Hmmmmm
I disagree with this.
In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night than their own biological call to sleep.
It doesn't matter if there is anything going on that *is* exciting. The fact that everyone else is asleep and they are still awake is exciting enough by itself, and some kids will ignore their own rythms repeatedly just to have that, at a high cost to others the next day.
These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take to heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are "out of kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone *else* that is out of sorts, not them.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cathy Hilde
Do any of you request your child to stay in their room when up after
everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 and under crowd.
Cathy
everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 and under crowd.
Cathy
----- Original Message -----
From: starsuncloud@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:28 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
attractive.
If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have
no
reason to fight her own biological responses.<<<
Hmmmmm
I disagree with this.
In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep.
It doesn't matter if there is anything going on that *is* exciting. The
fact that everyone else is asleep and they are still awake is exciting
enough by itself, and some kids will ignore their own rythms repeatedly
just to have that, at a high cost to others the next day.
These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take to
heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are "out of
kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone *else* that is
out of sorts, not them.
Kristen
----------
From: Have a Nice Day![SMTP:litlrooh@...]
Reply To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
<<File: ATT00005.htm>>
marji
At 00:43 1/23/03 -0500, Kristen wrote:
night or the rare opportunity to do so. The truth is that I don't know all
the kids in the world, but has been my experience that when 'bedtime rules'
is not an issue, there's no reason to ignore the sensations that cause a
kid to want to go to sleep.
In our house, there have never been any rules about when to go to bed. My
now-8-year-old son really wants to go to bed when he gets sleepy, and he is
the one who makes that decision, nobody else. Of course, if something is
going on that makes it more interesting to stay awake despite being tired,
then he will try to stay awake (I would, too), but that is a rare
occurrence, not the norm; when that guy gets tired, he craves going to
bed. He sleeps as long as he needs to or wants to, and I am assured that
he is in tune with his own sleep needs because I have never interfered with
them. If we are out somewhere, bed can be my arms or someone's sofa, and
he can drift off just as easily there (even now at the age of 8) or on the
car ride home. He can also stay up until 1 or 2 in the morning or beyond
if there's something fun going on. But, even if there's something fun
going on, when he gets really tired, there's no keeping him awake, and he
has no reason to resist.
Sometimes I piss him off because I can't stay awake to read to him as long
as he can stay awake to be read to, but he is extremely sympathetic and
will "allow" me to shut the light off when I just can't stay awake any
longer. Anyway, he's usually content to drift off to sleep by that time,
too, but he knows that he is welcome to stay awake and play or look at a
book or do whatever he'd like to do at that time.
My guess is that when long-standing bedtime rules get lifted, the situation
you describe above may happen. But, eventually, once a kid realizes that
the bedtime rules are really gone, staying awake after everyone else goes
off to bed probably wouldn't be as exciting anymore and then a kid can
start to respond more to their body clock that tells them when to go to bed
and when to get up. In fact, a kid's need for going to bed may shift to
more of a night owl schedule, but if there's no need for early rising in
the morning, what difference does it make? I like what Sandra has said
about Kirby and his ability to manage his own bedtime schedule based on
what's important to him.
As I said, I don't know everyone in the world; this is only my
experience. But, I do have the distant memory of resisting being sleepy if
I had the chance to stay awake late, because bedtimes were strictly
enforced when I was a wee one and I HATED it!
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,Then, Ren wrote:
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
> Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up soundsThen, Kristen wrote:
> attractive. If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control
> issue, she'd have no reason to fight her own biological responses.
> HmmmmmKristen, that may be true for a kid who gets AN opportunity to stay up all
>
> I disagree with this.
>
> In the example of staying up all night, there are plenty of kids who
> ignore their own biological rythms because they think something more
> exciting is going on in the middle of the night than their own biological
> call to sleep.
>
> It doesn't matter if there is anything going on that *is*
> exciting. The fact that everyone else is asleep and they are still awake
> is exciting enough by itself, and some kids will ignore their own rythms
> repeatedly just to have that, at a high cost to others the next day.
>
> These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take
> to heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are
> "out of kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone
> *else* that is out of sorts, not them.
>
> Kristen
night or the rare opportunity to do so. The truth is that I don't know all
the kids in the world, but has been my experience that when 'bedtime rules'
is not an issue, there's no reason to ignore the sensations that cause a
kid to want to go to sleep.
In our house, there have never been any rules about when to go to bed. My
now-8-year-old son really wants to go to bed when he gets sleepy, and he is
the one who makes that decision, nobody else. Of course, if something is
going on that makes it more interesting to stay awake despite being tired,
then he will try to stay awake (I would, too), but that is a rare
occurrence, not the norm; when that guy gets tired, he craves going to
bed. He sleeps as long as he needs to or wants to, and I am assured that
he is in tune with his own sleep needs because I have never interfered with
them. If we are out somewhere, bed can be my arms or someone's sofa, and
he can drift off just as easily there (even now at the age of 8) or on the
car ride home. He can also stay up until 1 or 2 in the morning or beyond
if there's something fun going on. But, even if there's something fun
going on, when he gets really tired, there's no keeping him awake, and he
has no reason to resist.
Sometimes I piss him off because I can't stay awake to read to him as long
as he can stay awake to be read to, but he is extremely sympathetic and
will "allow" me to shut the light off when I just can't stay awake any
longer. Anyway, he's usually content to drift off to sleep by that time,
too, but he knows that he is welcome to stay awake and play or look at a
book or do whatever he'd like to do at that time.
My guess is that when long-standing bedtime rules get lifted, the situation
you describe above may happen. But, eventually, once a kid realizes that
the bedtime rules are really gone, staying awake after everyone else goes
off to bed probably wouldn't be as exciting anymore and then a kid can
start to respond more to their body clock that tells them when to go to bed
and when to get up. In fact, a kid's need for going to bed may shift to
more of a night owl schedule, but if there's no need for early rising in
the morning, what difference does it make? I like what Sandra has said
about Kirby and his ability to manage his own bedtime schedule based on
what's important to him.
As I said, I don't know everyone in the world; this is only my
experience. But, I do have the distant memory of resisting being sleepy if
I had the chance to stay awake late, because bedtimes were strictly
enforced when I was a wee one and I HATED it!
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I agree heartily with letting the kids go to bed on their own time schedule,
I've seen it happen here succsessfully, and once I stopped waking my teen up
and let him miss bowling a time or two, he is getting up in time.
Sometimes they are noisy, but we are in a tiny apartment and it is impossible
to keep noises from being heard in the grown up 's bedroom, so Joe is a
crank-monster. I believe that once we move to the new house there will be a
big difference. The kids won't be watching tv just outside our door.
Only 9 more days...
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've seen it happen here succsessfully, and once I stopped waking my teen up
and let him miss bowling a time or two, he is getting up in time.
Sometimes they are noisy, but we are in a tiny apartment and it is impossible
to keep noises from being heard in the grown up 's bedroom, so Joe is a
crank-monster. I believe that once we move to the new house there will be a
big difference. The kids won't be watching tv just outside our door.
Only 9 more days...
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane
No, I don't ask them to stay in their room. However, I do ask them to be
quiet so others can sleep, and I discourage them from turning on other
lights, which has the same effect.
:-) Diane
quiet so others can sleep, and I discourage them from turning on other
lights, which has the same effect.
:-) Diane
>Do any of you request your child to stay in their room when up after
>everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 and under crowd.
>Cathy
>
Kelli Traaseth
I think when we are changing these types of mind sets and routines, we have to keep in mind that it is going to take some time for it to work. I know for my kids it took several days, on and off for a few months, before they could realize how tired they were.
Also, since staying home from school, it is so exciting being able to do stuff at home and it is hard to settle down when one is excited. I know it is for me. But, as the days, weeks, months go by, they'll figure out that those things are there tomorrow and the next days; going to bed will be OK.
My dd (8 yr) has realized that she is very emotional when she is tired, she knows to get to bed before she starts feeling that way and she'll sleep in. My ds (9 yr) loves to stay up, loves working on the computer, playing the PS2 and so on. And we tell him when we are turning in, sometimes he'll stay up, sometimes he goes to bed. The novelty of staying up is going away. Most of the time he'll want to go to bed when we go to bed. He also sleeps in. I do think its been the hardest with my 5 yr dd (I attribute it to me and my dh) I don't hear alot about 5 yr olds staying up until 10:00. (Except here) I have to get past that. She loves to stay up and she is finally learning to sleep in, not always but it is happening. But I am learning that she doesn't need sleep like me. She goes and goes. So when I'm tired I can't assume she's tired.
We also do lots of talking about sleep. My 8 yr dd and I had lots of talks about it. She'd go to bed in tears, being so tired. I let her know that I get that way too if I'm too tired. She hasn't done that now for several weeks. We are learning together how to read our bodies.
I keep telling myself: patience, and I also keep telling myself that my baby is growing up so fast and before long she'll be sleeping in and will want everyone to be quiet too!
For all of these issues I think we all have to realize that it doesn't just click into place in a few days or weeks, it might take months. (Or years for us adults) Especially when most of us parents are trying to think differently than how we were raised. We aren't always going to be in our perfect 'Living Joyfully' forms either, then that is going to set it back a little too. Hopefully with time that persona will take over, I think it eventually will.
Sorry for the length,
Kelli
starsuncloud@... wrote:In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
attractive.
If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have no
reason to fight her own biological responses.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Also, since staying home from school, it is so exciting being able to do stuff at home and it is hard to settle down when one is excited. I know it is for me. But, as the days, weeks, months go by, they'll figure out that those things are there tomorrow and the next days; going to bed will be OK.
My dd (8 yr) has realized that she is very emotional when she is tired, she knows to get to bed before she starts feeling that way and she'll sleep in. My ds (9 yr) loves to stay up, loves working on the computer, playing the PS2 and so on. And we tell him when we are turning in, sometimes he'll stay up, sometimes he goes to bed. The novelty of staying up is going away. Most of the time he'll want to go to bed when we go to bed. He also sleeps in. I do think its been the hardest with my 5 yr dd (I attribute it to me and my dh) I don't hear alot about 5 yr olds staying up until 10:00. (Except here) I have to get past that. She loves to stay up and she is finally learning to sleep in, not always but it is happening. But I am learning that she doesn't need sleep like me. She goes and goes. So when I'm tired I can't assume she's tired.
We also do lots of talking about sleep. My 8 yr dd and I had lots of talks about it. She'd go to bed in tears, being so tired. I let her know that I get that way too if I'm too tired. She hasn't done that now for several weeks. We are learning together how to read our bodies.
I keep telling myself: patience, and I also keep telling myself that my baby is growing up so fast and before long she'll be sleeping in and will want everyone to be quiet too!
For all of these issues I think we all have to realize that it doesn't just click into place in a few days or weeks, it might take months. (Or years for us adults) Especially when most of us parents are trying to think differently than how we were raised. We aren't always going to be in our perfect 'Living Joyfully' forms either, then that is going to set it back a little too. Hopefully with time that persona will take over, I think it eventually will.
Sorry for the length,
Kelli
starsuncloud@... wrote:In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
attractive.
If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have no
reason to fight her own biological responses.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jerilyn Winstead
Hi, I'm new (see my earlier intro). I have four kids 6 and under. One thing we have noticed with our oldest is that even before the age of 2 she wouldn't fall asleep until 10 or 10:30 most nights, even tho we consistently put her to bed between 8 and 8:30. She would just sit in the dark and sing songs or "look" at books. She is still the same now. We now let her stay up until between 9 & 9:30, then she reads books till 10 or 10:30. (She's a voracious reader.) Dh & I go to bed around 10:30 and we have to go in between 10 and 10:30 and make her turn her lamp off & put the book away! But I know this is her natural rhythm as it started at such a young age. She is also a slow waker-upper in the morning, and often is up an hour or so before she even gets hungry for breakfast. (She gets up around 8:00 a.m. most mornings.)
My almost 5 yo dd, on the other hand, is high-energy and spirited like me and she crashes between 8:30 and 9 every night--totally fast asleep. She's also usually one of the first ones up in the morning.
My 3.5 year old and 15 month are still taking a 2-3 hour nap every afternoon, and they are put to bed almost every night between 8 & 8:30. They are both usually asleep by 9 at the latest and get up between 7 and 8 in the morning.
All this to say that I really think we have certain natural rhythms. I am spirited myself and my natural rhythms are very obvious in me and also very inconsistent--I go through periods where I can't sleep till Midnight and can't get up early, to other times when I crash by 10 and can get up between 5:30 and 6 every morning for a week or so.
Oh, and they are definitely not alllowed to get out of bed & come out of their room after they are put to bed. Sometimes we do let them look at books in bed for 15 minutes or so before lights go out. My kids share rooms & beds (& maybe we were strict enough or something) that this has never posed a problem. If they do come out now it is usually for an important reason.
Jerilyn in CO
Moms & Dads working from home
www.momsforlife.funurl.com
My almost 5 yo dd, on the other hand, is high-energy and spirited like me and she crashes between 8:30 and 9 every night--totally fast asleep. She's also usually one of the first ones up in the morning.
My 3.5 year old and 15 month are still taking a 2-3 hour nap every afternoon, and they are put to bed almost every night between 8 & 8:30. They are both usually asleep by 9 at the latest and get up between 7 and 8 in the morning.
All this to say that I really think we have certain natural rhythms. I am spirited myself and my natural rhythms are very obvious in me and also very inconsistent--I go through periods where I can't sleep till Midnight and can't get up early, to other times when I crash by 10 and can get up between 5:30 and 6 every morning for a week or so.
Oh, and they are definitely not alllowed to get out of bed & come out of their room after they are put to bed. Sometimes we do let them look at books in bed for 15 minutes or so before lights go out. My kids share rooms & beds (& maybe we were strict enough or something) that this has never posed a problem. If they do come out now it is usually for an important reason.
Jerilyn in CO
Moms & Dads working from home
www.momsforlife.funurl.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Cathy Hilde
To: '[email protected]'
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
Do any of you request your child to stay in their room when up after
everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 and under crowd.
Cathy
----- Original Message -----
From: starsuncloud@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:28 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
attractive.
If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have
no
reason to fight her own biological responses.<<<
Hmmmmm
I disagree with this.
In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep.
It doesn't matter if there is anything going on that *is* exciting. The
fact that everyone else is asleep and they are still awake is exciting
enough by itself, and some kids will ignore their own rythms repeatedly
just to have that, at a high cost to others the next day.
These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take to
heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are "out of
kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone *else* that is
out of sorts, not them.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Cathy Hilde <
childe@s...> wrote:
perfectly capable of roaming the house and eventually putting
herself to bed, but my 5 year old is still very much at the "fall
asleep wherever you happen to be" age. I told them that I'd like to
have them only in their bedroom (where Mikey will stumble to the
bed if she's tired, LOL -- well, that's when they haven't set up a
"camping" area on the floor!) after Wally and I go to bed, because
I find it unbearable to think of Mikey sleeping cold and cramped
up on oh, say, the rocking chair all night. :P They readily saw the
sense in this. If they did have a problem with it, I'd probably just
set an alarm clock and go on a Mikey hunt every day/night at 2
a.m. ;)
Pam
childe@s...> wrote:
> Do any of you request your child to stay in their room when upafter
> everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 andunder crowd.
> CathyWe've struck that bargain with our girls. :) My 8 year old is actually
perfectly capable of roaming the house and eventually putting
herself to bed, but my 5 year old is still very much at the "fall
asleep wherever you happen to be" age. I told them that I'd like to
have them only in their bedroom (where Mikey will stumble to the
bed if she's tired, LOL -- well, that's when they haven't set up a
"camping" area on the floor!) after Wally and I go to bed, because
I find it unbearable to think of Mikey sleeping cold and cramped
up on oh, say, the rocking chair all night. :P They readily saw the
sense in this. If they did have a problem with it, I'd probably just
set an alarm clock and go on a Mikey hunt every day/night at 2
a.m. ;)
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/03 12:46:05 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
But do you have personal experience to be able to disagree with me?
Not a few days of allowing a child to choose when they sleep, but long term?
Perhaps a year of seeing what would really happen?
I have four children and all of them self regulate to some degree. The
toddler less so of course, but as a parent it is our job to read the signals
and meet the needs.
As they get older, they learn to meet their own sleep needs without me laying
down with them.
But even the little guy does not have an arbitrary bedtime.
He gets layed down with when he is actually tired.
If you haven't had long term experience with allowing a child to choose, you
don't know how it works in real life, you can only assume or guess.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
But do you have personal experience to be able to disagree with me?
Not a few days of allowing a child to choose when they sleep, but long term?
Perhaps a year of seeing what would really happen?
I have four children and all of them self regulate to some degree. The
toddler less so of course, but as a parent it is our job to read the signals
and meet the needs.
As they get older, they learn to meet their own sleep needs without me laying
down with them.
But even the little guy does not have an arbitrary bedtime.
He gets layed down with when he is actually tired.
If you haven't had long term experience with allowing a child to choose, you
don't know how it works in real life, you can only assume or guess.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/03 4:53:14 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
Do any of you request your child to stay in their room when up after
everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 and under crowd. >>
No. If it was a very young child ( under 4 or so) I would lay down with them
or give them books if they still weren't tired and I was exhausted.
But my 9 y.o. stays up later than us every night with his 13 y.o. brother.
In times past, as we were deregulating, they might forget and be too loud. I
would give them a couple chances to keep the noise level down so we could all
sleep and if they couldn't remember I shipped them off to their rooms with
the explanation that we all needed sleep and if they weren't tired they
needed to do something quiet in their rooms.
These days I never hear a peep after we all go to sleep.
And the fascination with staying up is totally gone.
At sleepovers they will go to sleep if they decide nothing more fun is going
on....their friends will stay up no matter what, just because they can.
I actually think the boys would go to sleep before 10pm if it weren't for the
fact that one of their favorite shows, "Inuyasha" is on at 11pm. They stay
up for that and then shut everything down and go to bed, even though no one
tells them to.
I often stay up and watch it with them.
Last night I was on the computer when the show ended. Jared had fallen asleep
on the couch, not sure at what point that happened, and Trevor went to his
room.
His bedroom is right off the living area and has no door and an open window
in the wall.
He says "Mom, I can't go to sleep with all that light, can you turn
everything off now?"
So HE was the one wanting everything shut down so he could sleep.
Sleep was more important than trying to find something else to do, or seeing
what I was up to.
It works. It takes time, but self regulation does happen.
And no one is advocating leaving children to themselves.....Of course they
aren't little adults. They deserve equal respect as adults, this does not
mean equal treatment because all needs are different from stage to stage and
person to person.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<<
Do any of you request your child to stay in their room when up after
everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 and under crowd. >>
No. If it was a very young child ( under 4 or so) I would lay down with them
or give them books if they still weren't tired and I was exhausted.
But my 9 y.o. stays up later than us every night with his 13 y.o. brother.
In times past, as we were deregulating, they might forget and be too loud. I
would give them a couple chances to keep the noise level down so we could all
sleep and if they couldn't remember I shipped them off to their rooms with
the explanation that we all needed sleep and if they weren't tired they
needed to do something quiet in their rooms.
These days I never hear a peep after we all go to sleep.
And the fascination with staying up is totally gone.
At sleepovers they will go to sleep if they decide nothing more fun is going
on....their friends will stay up no matter what, just because they can.
I actually think the boys would go to sleep before 10pm if it weren't for the
fact that one of their favorite shows, "Inuyasha" is on at 11pm. They stay
up for that and then shut everything down and go to bed, even though no one
tells them to.
I often stay up and watch it with them.
Last night I was on the computer when the show ended. Jared had fallen asleep
on the couch, not sure at what point that happened, and Trevor went to his
room.
His bedroom is right off the living area and has no door and an open window
in the wall.
He says "Mom, I can't go to sleep with all that light, can you turn
everything off now?"
So HE was the one wanting everything shut down so he could sleep.
Sleep was more important than trying to find something else to do, or seeing
what I was up to.
It works. It takes time, but self regulation does happen.
And no one is advocating leaving children to themselves.....Of course they
aren't little adults. They deserve equal respect as adults, this does not
mean equal treatment because all needs are different from stage to stage and
person to person.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Kelli Traaseth
I agree with what Marji said,
** In the example of staying up all night, there are plenty of kids who
ignore their own biological rythms because they think something more
exciting is going on in the middle of the night than their own biological
call to sleep.**
But how many of those kids have gotten to decide when to go to bed and when not to, through out their lives?
Not many, I'm betting.
Kelli
marji <marji@...> wrote:At 00:43 1/23/03 -0500, Kristen wrote:
night or the rare opportunity to do so. The truth is that I don't know all
the kids in the world, but has been my experience that when 'bedtime rules'
is not an issue, there's no reason to ignore the sensations that cause a
kid to want to go to sleep.
In our house, there have never been any rules about when to go to bed. My
now-8-year-old son really wants to go to bed when he gets sleepy, and he is
the one who makes that decision, nobody else. Of course, if something is
going on that makes it more interesting to stay awake despite being tired,
then he will try to stay awake (I would, too), but that is a rare
occurrence, not the norm; when that guy gets tired, he craves going to
bed. He sleeps as long as he needs to or wants to, and I am assured that
he is in tune with his own sleep needs because I have never interfered with
them. If we are out somewhere, bed can be my arms or someone's sofa, and
he can drift off just as easily there (even now at the age of 8) or on the
car ride home. He can also stay up until 1 or 2 in the morning or beyond
if there's something fun going on. But, even if there's something fun
going on, when he gets really tired, there's no keeping him awake, and he
has no reason to resist.
Sometimes I piss him off because I can't stay awake to read to him as long
as he can stay awake to be read to, but he is extremely sympathetic and
will "allow" me to shut the light off when I just can't stay awake any
longer. Anyway, he's usually content to drift off to sleep by that time,
too, but he knows that he is welcome to stay awake and play or look at a
book or do whatever he'd like to do at that time.
My guess is that when long-standing bedtime rules get lifted, the situation
you describe above may happen. But, eventually, once a kid realizes that
the bedtime rules are really gone, staying awake after everyone else goes
off to bed probably wouldn't be as exciting anymore and then a kid can
start to respond more to their body clock that tells them when to go to bed
and when to get up. In fact, a kid's need for going to bed may shift to
more of a night owl schedule, but if there's no need for early rising in
the morning, what difference does it make? I like what Sandra has said
about Kirby and his ability to manage his own bedtime schedule based on
what's important to him.
As I said, I don't know everyone in the world; this is only my
experience. But, I do have the distant memory of resisting being sleepy if
I had the chance to stay awake late, because bedtimes were strictly
enforced when I was a wee one and I HATED it!
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
** In the example of staying up all night, there are plenty of kids who
ignore their own biological rythms because they think something more
exciting is going on in the middle of the night than their own biological
call to sleep.**
But how many of those kids have gotten to decide when to go to bed and when not to, through out their lives?
Not many, I'm betting.
Kelli
marji <marji@...> wrote:At 00:43 1/23/03 -0500, Kristen wrote:
> In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,Then, Ren wrote:
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
> Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up soundsThen, Kristen wrote:
> attractive. If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control
> issue, she'd have no reason to fight her own biological responses.
> HmmmmmKristen, that may be true for a kid who gets AN opportunity to stay up all
>
> I disagree with this.
>
> In the example of staying up all night, there are plenty of kids who
> ignore their own biological rythms because they think something more
> exciting is going on in the middle of the night than their own biological
> call to sleep.
>
> It doesn't matter if there is anything going on that *is*
> exciting. The fact that everyone else is asleep and they are still awake
> is exciting enough by itself, and some kids will ignore their own rythms
> repeatedly just to have that, at a high cost to others the next day.
>
> These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take
> to heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are
> "out of kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone
> *else* that is out of sorts, not them.
>
> Kristen
night or the rare opportunity to do so. The truth is that I don't know all
the kids in the world, but has been my experience that when 'bedtime rules'
is not an issue, there's no reason to ignore the sensations that cause a
kid to want to go to sleep.
In our house, there have never been any rules about when to go to bed. My
now-8-year-old son really wants to go to bed when he gets sleepy, and he is
the one who makes that decision, nobody else. Of course, if something is
going on that makes it more interesting to stay awake despite being tired,
then he will try to stay awake (I would, too), but that is a rare
occurrence, not the norm; when that guy gets tired, he craves going to
bed. He sleeps as long as he needs to or wants to, and I am assured that
he is in tune with his own sleep needs because I have never interfered with
them. If we are out somewhere, bed can be my arms or someone's sofa, and
he can drift off just as easily there (even now at the age of 8) or on the
car ride home. He can also stay up until 1 or 2 in the morning or beyond
if there's something fun going on. But, even if there's something fun
going on, when he gets really tired, there's no keeping him awake, and he
has no reason to resist.
Sometimes I piss him off because I can't stay awake to read to him as long
as he can stay awake to be read to, but he is extremely sympathetic and
will "allow" me to shut the light off when I just can't stay awake any
longer. Anyway, he's usually content to drift off to sleep by that time,
too, but he knows that he is welcome to stay awake and play or look at a
book or do whatever he'd like to do at that time.
My guess is that when long-standing bedtime rules get lifted, the situation
you describe above may happen. But, eventually, once a kid realizes that
the bedtime rules are really gone, staying awake after everyone else goes
off to bed probably wouldn't be as exciting anymore and then a kid can
start to respond more to their body clock that tells them when to go to bed
and when to get up. In fact, a kid's need for going to bed may shift to
more of a night owl schedule, but if there's no need for early rising in
the morning, what difference does it make? I like what Sandra has said
about Kirby and his ability to manage his own bedtime schedule based on
what's important to him.
As I said, I don't know everyone in the world; this is only my
experience. But, I do have the distant memory of resisting being sleepy if
I had the chance to stay awake late, because bedtimes were strictly
enforced when I was a wee one and I HATED it!
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
Cathy Hilde wrote:
tie up the dog and check the doors as thats the important stuff. If they forget a light then its no big deal. They are all low-energy bulbs. I also ask them to keep the sound on the TV or game way down
so as not to disturb me.
Shyrley
> Do any of you request your child to stay in their room when up afterMine are 10, 9 and 7. I quite often go to bed before them and just ask them to make sure the Play-Station is off and turn out the lights when they go up. I do everything else - turn the heating down and
> everyone else has gone to bed? I'm talking about the 10 and under crowd.
> Cathy
>
tie up the dog and check the doors as thats the important stuff. If they forget a light then its no big deal. They are all low-energy bulbs. I also ask them to keep the sound on the TV or game way down
so as not to disturb me.
Shyrley
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/03 10:57:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
What is this?
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> one of their favorite shows, "Inuyasha" is on at 11pmHey Ren,
What is this?
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/03 8:30:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
as she wanted and she knew it. We were gone for four nights. It was a
nightmare for everyone. The trip wasn't fun and I'd never do it again.
Maybe there are kids who can handle going to bed at different times at night,
but my kids can't. We don't have power struggles and fights when it's
bedtime. My kids may argue about who gets to brush their teeth first or
whose turn is it to have their story read first, but the actual bedtime isn't
a problem most of the time. Sometimes my daughter will get up from her bed
and say she's having problems falling asleep. I'll snuggle with her and
caress her face and she'll fall back to sleep. They are used to the schedule
and know what to expect. I know there's going to be a lot of disagreement
from everyone on this board about my kids' bedtime, but I'm not going to
change my mind on it. They usually fall asleep within minutes after
snuggling with them in bed, so I know they're tired. They're busy all day
and are on the go. We are all much happier when we get enough sleep, and we
can function better the next day.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up soundsI'm not sure about that. When we were on vacation, she could stay up as late
> attractive.
> If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control issue, she'd have
> no
> reason to fight her own biological responses.
as she wanted and she knew it. We were gone for four nights. It was a
nightmare for everyone. The trip wasn't fun and I'd never do it again.
Maybe there are kids who can handle going to bed at different times at night,
but my kids can't. We don't have power struggles and fights when it's
bedtime. My kids may argue about who gets to brush their teeth first or
whose turn is it to have their story read first, but the actual bedtime isn't
a problem most of the time. Sometimes my daughter will get up from her bed
and say she's having problems falling asleep. I'll snuggle with her and
caress her face and she'll fall back to sleep. They are used to the schedule
and know what to expect. I know there's going to be a lot of disagreement
from everyone on this board about my kids' bedtime, but I'm not going to
change my mind on it. They usually fall asleep within minutes after
snuggling with them in bed, so I know they're tired. They're busy all day
and are on the go. We are all much happier when we get enough sleep, and we
can function better the next day.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/03 9:44:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
litlrooh@... writes:
sleep, the next day is miserable for everyone.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litlrooh@... writes:
> In the example of staying up all night,This may be true for my kids. I just know that when they don't get enough
> there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
> they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
> than their own biological call to sleep.
sleep, the next day is miserable for everyone.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected],
starsuncloud@c... wrote:
Ding, ding, ding!
Ren, please explain what *this* means.
To some degree? So is there a degree to which you help them
regulate?
And this?
The
This is precisely what I am trying to get at--the nuances. I want to
know if mothering implies at all any judgment calls about what
kids need when they don't see it themselves.
My 15 yo just started an 8:00 class at the local hs this year for
Algebra II. He had never had to rise to meet a bus, never had
used an alarm or anything like that. He loves to stay up really late
at night and sleep in.
Both of us wondered how he'd fare in the transition.
So initially I got up and made sure he was up too. I would knock
on his door and help him wake up. I made his breakfast, we
double checked together on his book bag and homework and he
went out the door.
After a couple weeks of this, he started getting up to his alarm
clcok. I would still get up a few minutes later to be sure he hadn't
turned it off an gone back to sleep. He did actually a couple of
times. But after a week or so of being up before I got in there, he
started getting up without any check ups from me. I still wake up
(I can't seem to sleep knowing he's getting ready to leave), but I
don't nomrally get up to help him. He's missed the bus once.
To me it would have been cruel to just expect that after a lifetime
of never meeting the bus or school schedule that he ought to just
do it cold turkey. So I supported him until he could go it alone.
To me that's what a lot of these issues are.
Initially my kids may not be as able to set a bedtime that works
for them so I help the process by bathing or reading or
snuggling. I pick a time that makes sense to me for them.
But as they get older, I gradually transfer the responsbility to the
child so that he/she regulate him/herself. My older kids don't
have bedtimes and haven't for years. My younger ones have a
bedtime routine that gets chucked if a good TV show is on or we
have people over. But on the whole, they are in bed between 8:30
and 9:00 during this time of parental guidance.
Some might say that they are brewing a sense of anger toward
us. But ironically my 11 year old just started mentioning that he'd
like to decide when he goes to bed now. I think he'll do fine so
we're ready for him to do so. The younger two aren't as ready, in
our estimation.
Okay, got my bull's-eye vest on! Fire away. :)
(Honestly, I appreciate all the input. I really want to hash this stuff
out and I'm going to keep coming back with what I think so I can
hear what you all think. No antagonism meant at all).
Julie
starsuncloud@c... wrote:
Ding, ding, ding!
Ren, please explain what *this* means.
> I have four children and all of them self regulate to somedegree.
To some degree? So is there a degree to which you help them
regulate?
And this?
The
> toddler less so of course, but as a parent it is our job to readthe signals
> and meet the needs.Which means what?
This is precisely what I am trying to get at--the nuances. I want to
know if mothering implies at all any judgment calls about what
kids need when they don't see it themselves.
> As they get older, they learn to meet their own sleep needswithout me laying
> down with them.What about this example and tell me what you think:
> But even the little guy does not have an arbitrary bedtime.
> He gets layed down with when he is actually tired.
My 15 yo just started an 8:00 class at the local hs this year for
Algebra II. He had never had to rise to meet a bus, never had
used an alarm or anything like that. He loves to stay up really late
at night and sleep in.
Both of us wondered how he'd fare in the transition.
So initially I got up and made sure he was up too. I would knock
on his door and help him wake up. I made his breakfast, we
double checked together on his book bag and homework and he
went out the door.
After a couple weeks of this, he started getting up to his alarm
clcok. I would still get up a few minutes later to be sure he hadn't
turned it off an gone back to sleep. He did actually a couple of
times. But after a week or so of being up before I got in there, he
started getting up without any check ups from me. I still wake up
(I can't seem to sleep knowing he's getting ready to leave), but I
don't nomrally get up to help him. He's missed the bus once.
To me it would have been cruel to just expect that after a lifetime
of never meeting the bus or school schedule that he ought to just
do it cold turkey. So I supported him until he could go it alone.
To me that's what a lot of these issues are.
Initially my kids may not be as able to set a bedtime that works
for them so I help the process by bathing or reading or
snuggling. I pick a time that makes sense to me for them.
But as they get older, I gradually transfer the responsbility to the
child so that he/she regulate him/herself. My older kids don't
have bedtimes and haven't for years. My younger ones have a
bedtime routine that gets chucked if a good TV show is on or we
have people over. But on the whole, they are in bed between 8:30
and 9:00 during this time of parental guidance.
Some might say that they are brewing a sense of anger toward
us. But ironically my 11 year old just started mentioning that he'd
like to decide when he goes to bed now. I think he'll do fine so
we're ready for him to do so. The younger two aren't as ready, in
our estimation.
Okay, got my bull's-eye vest on! Fire away. :)
(Honestly, I appreciate all the input. I really want to hash this stuff
out and I'm going to keep coming back with what I think so I can
hear what you all think. No antagonism meant at all).
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/03 5:15:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
marji@... writes:
my daughter and son stayed up late, we had a great time. It wasn't until
after they fell asleep and kept waking up, and waking up so early the next
day that it wasn't good for them. It's true that maybe them being on a
schedule made it more difficult for them to handle not being on a schedule,
but most kids I know do well if they're on a schedule. Going to sleep at
9:00pm one night, and then 12:00am one night, 9:00am again, and then 1:30am
the next night isn't easy on most kids. They can do it, but they probably
don't function well. I have made the decision that they're too young to make
the decision and understand that when they don't get enough sleep the night
before, it affects how they feel the next day. Sometimes we stay up a little
after their normal bedtime and this doesn't seem to affect them, like 20 or
30 minutes. The bedtime schedule seems to work well for them and the whole
family.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji@... writes:
> In our house, there have never been any rules about when to go to bed. MyIt's true that most kids will eventually fall to sleep on their own. When
> now-8-year-old son really wants to go to bed when he gets sleepy, and he is
> the one who makes that decision, nobody else. Of course, if something is
> going on that makes it more interesting to stay awake despite being tired,
> then he will try to stay awake (I would, too), but that is a rare
> occurrence, not the norm; when that guy gets tired, he craves going to
> bed. He sleeps as long as he needs to or wants to, and I am assured that
> he is in tune with his own sleep needs because I have never interfered with
> them.
my daughter and son stayed up late, we had a great time. It wasn't until
after they fell asleep and kept waking up, and waking up so early the next
day that it wasn't good for them. It's true that maybe them being on a
schedule made it more difficult for them to handle not being on a schedule,
but most kids I know do well if they're on a schedule. Going to sleep at
9:00pm one night, and then 12:00am one night, 9:00am again, and then 1:30am
the next night isn't easy on most kids. They can do it, but they probably
don't function well. I have made the decision that they're too young to make
the decision and understand that when they don't get enough sleep the night
before, it affects how they feel the next day. Sometimes we stay up a little
after their normal bedtime and this doesn't seem to affect them, like 20 or
30 minutes. The bedtime schedule seems to work well for them and the whole
family.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected],
HappyMato2@a... wrote:
Sometimes we stay up a little
Julie B
HappyMato2@a... wrote:
Sometimes we stay up a little
> after their normal bedtime and this doesn't seem to affectthem, like 20 or
> 30 minutes. The bedtime schedule seems to work well forthem and the whole
> family.Patti, this makes sense to me. Just wanted to say so.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/03 6:04:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:
letting them get up in the morning at whatever time they want, because they
can make a correlation between not getting enough sleep with feeling like
crap the next day, or not waking up in time may make them late for an
appointment. Children my kids age are not able to make that correlation yet.
My kids have no sense of time, tomorrow, appointments, etc. Right now the
way we do things works well for us. When this changes, we'll change.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Earthmomma67@... writes:
> I agree heartily with letting the kids go to bed on their own time schedule,I can understand with teens letting them stay up as late as they want and
> I've seen it happen here succsessfully, and once I stopped waking my teen
> up
> and let him miss bowling a time or two, he is getting up in time.
> Sometimes they are noisy, but we are in a tiny apartment and it is
> impossible
> to keep noises from being heard in the grown up 's bedroom, so Joe is a
> crank-monster. I believe that once we move to the new house there will be a
> big difference. The
letting them get up in the morning at whatever time they want, because they
can make a correlation between not getting enough sleep with feeling like
crap the next day, or not waking up in time may make them late for an
appointment. Children my kids age are not able to make that correlation yet.
My kids have no sense of time, tomorrow, appointments, etc. Right now the
way we do things works well for us. When this changes, we'll change.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/03 6:32:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, cen46624@...
writes:
and horrible feeling I'd have if my son, who is a daredevil and has no sense
of fear, were to decide to jump off the counter and break his arm, or decide
to take off down the street.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> No, I don't ask them to stay in their room. However, I do ask them to beI can't imagine letting my 3 and 4 year olds up alone at night. The guilt
> quiet so others can sleep, and I discourage them from turning on other
> lights, which has the same effect.
>
and horrible feeling I'd have if my son, who is a daredevil and has no sense
of fear, were to decide to jump off the counter and break his arm, or decide
to take off down the street.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Well,
I have a child who did not have a bedtime and insisted on being up late, even when he was tired and when it made him miserable the next day.
He has always been that way, and its not just about sleep.
Kristen
Kriste----- Original Message -----
From: marji
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
At 00:43 1/23/03 -0500, Kristen wrote:
night or the rare opportunity to do so. The truth is that I don't know all
the kids in the world, but has been my experience that when 'bedtime rules'
is not an issue, there's no reason to ignore the sensations that cause a
kid to want to go to sleep.
In our house, there have never been any rules about when to go to bed. My
now-8-year-old son really wants to go to bed when he gets sleepy, and he is
the one who makes that decision, nobody else. Of course, if something is
going on that makes it more interesting to stay awake despite being tired,
then he will try to stay awake (I would, too), but that is a rare
occurrence, not the norm; when that guy gets tired, he craves going to
bed. He sleeps as long as he needs to or wants to, and I am assured that
he is in tune with his own sleep needs because I have never interfered with
them. If we are out somewhere, bed can be my arms or someone's sofa, and
he can drift off just as easily there (even now at the age of 8) or on the
car ride home. He can also stay up until 1 or 2 in the morning or beyond
if there's something fun going on. But, even if there's something fun
going on, when he gets really tired, there's no keeping him awake, and he
has no reason to resist.
Sometimes I piss him off because I can't stay awake to read to him as long
as he can stay awake to be read to, but he is extremely sympathetic and
will "allow" me to shut the light off when I just can't stay awake any
longer. Anyway, he's usually content to drift off to sleep by that time,
too, but he knows that he is welcome to stay awake and play or look at a
book or do whatever he'd like to do at that time.
My guess is that when long-standing bedtime rules get lifted, the situation
you describe above may happen. But, eventually, once a kid realizes that
the bedtime rules are really gone, staying awake after everyone else goes
off to bed probably wouldn't be as exciting anymore and then a kid can
start to respond more to their body clock that tells them when to go to bed
and when to get up. In fact, a kid's need for going to bed may shift to
more of a night owl schedule, but if there's no need for early rising in
the morning, what difference does it make? I like what Sandra has said
about Kirby and his ability to manage his own bedtime schedule based on
what's important to him.
As I said, I don't know everyone in the world; this is only my
experience. But, I do have the distant memory of resisting being sleepy if
I had the chance to stay awake late, because bedtimes were strictly
enforced when I was a wee one and I HATED it!
Marji
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a child who did not have a bedtime and insisted on being up late, even when he was tired and when it made him miserable the next day.
He has always been that way, and its not just about sleep.
Kristen
Kriste----- Original Message -----
From: marji
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
At 00:43 1/23/03 -0500, Kristen wrote:
> In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,Then, Ren wrote:
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << My kids are not like that. She will stay up all night, or VERY late. >>
> Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up soundsThen, Kristen wrote:
> attractive. If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control
> issue, she'd have no reason to fight her own biological responses.
> HmmmmmKristen, that may be true for a kid who gets AN opportunity to stay up all
>
> I disagree with this.
>
> In the example of staying up all night, there are plenty of kids who
> ignore their own biological rythms because they think something more
> exciting is going on in the middle of the night than their own biological
> call to sleep.
>
> It doesn't matter if there is anything going on that *is*
> exciting. The fact that everyone else is asleep and they are still awake
> is exciting enough by itself, and some kids will ignore their own rythms
> repeatedly just to have that, at a high cost to others the next day.
>
> These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take
> to heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are
> "out of kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone
> *else* that is out of sorts, not them.
>
> Kristen
night or the rare opportunity to do so. The truth is that I don't know all
the kids in the world, but has been my experience that when 'bedtime rules'
is not an issue, there's no reason to ignore the sensations that cause a
kid to want to go to sleep.
In our house, there have never been any rules about when to go to bed. My
now-8-year-old son really wants to go to bed when he gets sleepy, and he is
the one who makes that decision, nobody else. Of course, if something is
going on that makes it more interesting to stay awake despite being tired,
then he will try to stay awake (I would, too), but that is a rare
occurrence, not the norm; when that guy gets tired, he craves going to
bed. He sleeps as long as he needs to or wants to, and I am assured that
he is in tune with his own sleep needs because I have never interfered with
them. If we are out somewhere, bed can be my arms or someone's sofa, and
he can drift off just as easily there (even now at the age of 8) or on the
car ride home. He can also stay up until 1 or 2 in the morning or beyond
if there's something fun going on. But, even if there's something fun
going on, when he gets really tired, there's no keeping him awake, and he
has no reason to resist.
Sometimes I piss him off because I can't stay awake to read to him as long
as he can stay awake to be read to, but he is extremely sympathetic and
will "allow" me to shut the light off when I just can't stay awake any
longer. Anyway, he's usually content to drift off to sleep by that time,
too, but he knows that he is welcome to stay awake and play or look at a
book or do whatever he'd like to do at that time.
My guess is that when long-standing bedtime rules get lifted, the situation
you describe above may happen. But, eventually, once a kid realizes that
the bedtime rules are really gone, staying awake after everyone else goes
off to bed probably wouldn't be as exciting anymore and then a kid can
start to respond more to their body clock that tells them when to go to bed
and when to get up. In fact, a kid's need for going to bed may shift to
more of a night owl schedule, but if there's no need for early rising in
the morning, what difference does it make? I like what Sandra has said
about Kirby and his ability to manage his own bedtime schedule based on
what's important to him.
As I said, I don't know everyone in the world; this is only my
experience. But, I do have the distant memory of resisting being sleepy if
I had the chance to stay awake late, because bedtimes were strictly
enforced when I was a wee one and I HATED it!
Marji
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
In a message dated 1/23/03 12:46:05 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
But do you have personal experience to be able to disagree with me?<<
Yes I do. I have a son who has ALWAYS done this...and it extends to other issues than sleep.
My youngest daughter also does it but not as much and she has NEVER had a bedtime. She is almost 8.
Not a few days of allowing a child to choose when they sleep, but long term?
Perhaps a year of seeing what would really happen?<<
Does 5 or 6 years count?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
But do you have personal experience to be able to disagree with me?<<
Yes I do. I have a son who has ALWAYS done this...and it extends to other issues than sleep.
My youngest daughter also does it but not as much and she has NEVER had a bedtime. She is almost 8.
Not a few days of allowing a child to choose when they sleep, but long term?
Perhaps a year of seeing what would really happen?<<
Does 5 or 6 years count?
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley <[email protected]>
> This is precisely what I am trying to get at--the nuances. I wantto
> know if mothering implies at all any judgment calls about whatI think most perceptive people can see what lots of people
> kids need when they don't see it themselves.
around them need when those people aren't seeing it
themselves. Hey, I often wish I could change some of my
husband's habits, "for his own good"! ;)
The problem is, mothers can be wrong just like all mortals. What
I honestly believe my child needs and I should make her do "for
her own good" may be completely wrong. So, I am an advisor not
a dictator, however benevolent.
The other day, we all went to our book storage unit because my
husband and I needed to finish our yearly inventory. The girls
came along. Brit (8) was wearing a particular outfit she likes that
is much more suitable for summer, and it was pretty darn cold
that day. I said, "Better grab a sweater". She didn't want to put
one on, because it would mess up the look of the outfit. I "knew"
she was going to want the sweater. I could have forced her
(through words or more) to put the sweater on. Instead, I just
took it with me and left it where she could see it. She was
actually quite comfortable most of the time we were there, but did
put on the sweater near the end. She didn't fight off the urge once
she was truly cold, and I didn't pester her or mock "told you so". It
was her decision. I suppose I could also have played the mean
trick of leaving the sweater behind on purpose, to "teach her the
consequences of her actions". We much prefer just being nice to
each other and I'm sure you do, too.
Really it comes down to the same thing unschooling does: it
isn't nearly as much about what you do, it's about who gets to
make the decision.
Pam
Have a Nice Day!
My son is 14, and I do let him sleep as late as he wants.
Nowadays, the sleep thing is less of an issue. He *still* stays up till 3am...but he also sleeps till 11am or later sometimes.
But there are days when we have to be up very early, like 6am for a swim meet. And then he is up late and up early.
That can make for a difficult day sometimes.
Kristen
Nowadays, the sleep thing is less of an issue. He *still* stays up till 3am...but he also sleeps till 11am or later sometimes.
But there are days when we have to be up very early, like 6am for a swim meet. And then he is up late and up early.
That can make for a difficult day sometimes.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: HappyMato2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
In a message dated 1/23/03 6:04:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:
> I agree heartily with letting the kids go to bed on their own time schedule,
> I've seen it happen here succsessfully, and once I stopped waking my teen
> up
> and let him miss bowling a time or two, he is getting up in time.
> Sometimes they are noisy, but we are in a tiny apartment and it is
> impossible
> to keep noises from being heard in the grown up 's bedroom, so Joe is a
> crank-monster. I believe that once we move to the new house there will be a
> big difference. The
I can understand with teens letting them stay up as late as they want and
letting them get up in the morning at whatever time they want, because they
can make a correlation between not getting enough sleep with feeling like
crap the next day, or not waking up in time may make them late for an
appointment. Children my kids age are not able to make that correlation yet.
My kids have no sense of time, tomorrow, appointments, etc. Right now the
way we do things works well for us. When this changes, we'll change.
Patti
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
When my son was 4 and my daughter was 1, we went out and left them with a babysitter.
We came home at 1am and the babysitter was asleep and the kids had torn the house apart. Its a wonder one of them wasn't hurt.
One of the other things I noticed about my kdis then was that the more tired they got, the more wound up they were. They didn't "settle down" like most kids. They got more and more crazy, running, jumping, pesting, etc etc. They could not settle themselves down.
Kristen
We came home at 1am and the babysitter was asleep and the kids had torn the house apart. Its a wonder one of them wasn't hurt.
One of the other things I noticed about my kdis then was that the more tired they got, the more wound up they were. They didn't "settle down" like most kids. They got more and more crazy, running, jumping, pesting, etc etc. They could not settle themselves down.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: HappyMato2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
In a message dated 1/23/03 6:32:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, cen46624@...
writes:
> No, I don't ask them to stay in their room. However, I do ask them to be
> quiet so others can sleep, and I discourage them from turning on other
> lights, which has the same effect.
>
I can't imagine letting my 3 and 4 year olds up alone at night. The guilt
and horrible feeling I'd have if my son, who is a daredevil and has no sense
of fear, were to decide to jump off the counter and break his arm, or decide
to take off down the street.
Patti
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
But do you have personal experience to be able to disagree with me?<<
Yes I do. I have a son who has ALWAYS done this...and it extends to other issues than sleep.
My youngest daughter also does it but not as much and she has NEVER had a bedtime. She is almost 8.
Not a few days of allowing a child to choose when they sleep, but long term?
Perhaps a year of seeing what would really happen?<<
Does 5 or 6 years count?
Kristen
Actually I should clarify this.
Now that my son is 14, its not as much of an issue. He goes to bed late and sleeps late. I don't plan much of anything in the mornings anymore unless I have to (like an appointment or something).
And last summer when he had swim practice in the mornings, his sleep rythms eventually did adjust.
But when he was LITTLE, like under the age of 6, he would stay up late and then get up early and be a monster. He never adjusted. He just went without sleep.
I encouraged a bedtime (but didn't really enforce one) My husband didn't do anything about bedtimes and I worked evening shift. So I gave up on bedtime "schedules" a LONG LONG time ago :o).
But even with no bedtime for a couple of years, at that young age, he would still do this, even when he had to be up early in the morning. He continued to do it for probably 6 years.
He would get more and more wound up and fussy when he is tired, he didn't "settle down" like a lot of kids do. He didin't know how to settle himself.
Over the years, like at about age 9 and 10, he found ways to settle himself, by playing music while falling asleep or reading. But he STILL did not fall asleep until midnight or 1am, even when he had to be up early.
I'm just glad its not an issue anymore.
Kristen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
But do you have personal experience to be able to disagree with me?<<
Yes I do. I have a son who has ALWAYS done this...and it extends to other issues than sleep.
My youngest daughter also does it but not as much and she has NEVER had a bedtime. She is almost 8.
Not a few days of allowing a child to choose when they sleep, but long term?
Perhaps a year of seeing what would really happen?<<
Does 5 or 6 years count?
Kristen
Actually I should clarify this.
Now that my son is 14, its not as much of an issue. He goes to bed late and sleeps late. I don't plan much of anything in the mornings anymore unless I have to (like an appointment or something).
And last summer when he had swim practice in the mornings, his sleep rythms eventually did adjust.
But when he was LITTLE, like under the age of 6, he would stay up late and then get up early and be a monster. He never adjusted. He just went without sleep.
I encouraged a bedtime (but didn't really enforce one) My husband didn't do anything about bedtimes and I worked evening shift. So I gave up on bedtime "schedules" a LONG LONG time ago :o).
But even with no bedtime for a couple of years, at that young age, he would still do this, even when he had to be up early in the morning. He continued to do it for probably 6 years.
He would get more and more wound up and fussy when he is tired, he didn't "settle down" like a lot of kids do. He didin't know how to settle himself.
Over the years, like at about age 9 and 10, he found ways to settle himself, by playing music while falling asleep or reading. But he STILL did not fall asleep until midnight or 1am, even when he had to be up early.
I'm just glad its not an issue anymore.
Kristen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
> In a message dated 1/22/03 8:30:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,issue, > she'd have no reason to fight her own biological responses.
> starsuncloud@... writes:
>
>
> Of course they aren't, you control the bedtime so staying up sounds
> attractive. If she knew here own body and bedtime was not a control
I was doubtful but we tried this. We used to have strict bedtimes and I
decided to let the kids have more input now that we are unschooling. It took
about 3 weeks then suddely I noticed they all fell asleep around about 9:00
each night with no fuss. This seems to be their natural pattern and no we
have no more bedtime battles. Ours kids are ages nearly 4, nearly 5, 7 and 8
1/2.
Jodi M. in NH
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/22/03 10:44:34 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
How long could they ignore them, though?
For some kids being awake at 3:00 a.m. (if it has always been forbidden) is
in and of itself more exciting than going to sleep.
But *IF* the need for sleep is real and natural, children will sleep.
If it's NOT natural, then parents have been lying all these years.
And one thing that is firmly denied in this culture is that some individuals
need more sleep than others. Still we have the prescribed 8 to 10 hours,
depending on age, so that adults no matter what their needs are presumed to
need 8 hours.
If I'm sick, even a little, I need eight or nine. If I'm well, I need six.
Marty needs more sleep than Holly does. Always has. We know because we let
them find their own natural levels.
<<These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take to
heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are "out of
kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone *else* that is
out of sorts, not them.>>
Speaking as someone who knows from experience, if you let it go they WILL
come to their own routine. If you try it once or twice, or it happens
accidently (usually following something that WAS really exciting or
disturbing, or from a kid waking up from being sick, neither of which is a
legitimate test of natural sleep patterns), that's an exciting exception.
If you let it go for months or years, the kids just aren't cranky because
they DID go to sleep. Or if they are they'll be the first to say "I should
have gone to bed earlier," and then they do!
There have been times I've said, "Do you need to take a nap?" and that can be
the indicator that they're not being sufficiently fun to be around or easy to
get along with. Or I've said, "Sorry you didn't sleep more, because we
really do need to be there at noon." And there have been times I stayed up
too late, talking to overnight guests, or writing, or sewing, or something in
which I was engrossed and which was honestly more important that sleep to me
at that time. And if I'm tired I am careful to be extra patient that day.
And so they see an adult modelling how to be on a tired day.
I think when people who are unwilling to actually try or do something
speculate on the outcome, it's the same as people who have doled TV out an
hour at a time saying "If I let him, he would do nothing but watch TV."
It's not true, but only those who have let the TV go know that. The rest are
guessing. Or hoping that their rules are the thing preventing their dire
outcome.
Sandra
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
How long could they ignore them, though?
For some kids being awake at 3:00 a.m. (if it has always been forbidden) is
in and of itself more exciting than going to sleep.
But *IF* the need for sleep is real and natural, children will sleep.
If it's NOT natural, then parents have been lying all these years.
And one thing that is firmly denied in this culture is that some individuals
need more sleep than others. Still we have the prescribed 8 to 10 hours,
depending on age, so that adults no matter what their needs are presumed to
need 8 hours.
If I'm sick, even a little, I need eight or nine. If I'm well, I need six.
Marty needs more sleep than Holly does. Always has. We know because we let
them find their own natural levels.
<<These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take to
heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are "out of
kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone *else* that is
out of sorts, not them.>>
Speaking as someone who knows from experience, if you let it go they WILL
come to their own routine. If you try it once or twice, or it happens
accidently (usually following something that WAS really exciting or
disturbing, or from a kid waking up from being sick, neither of which is a
legitimate test of natural sleep patterns), that's an exciting exception.
If you let it go for months or years, the kids just aren't cranky because
they DID go to sleep. Or if they are they'll be the first to say "I should
have gone to bed earlier," and then they do!
There have been times I've said, "Do you need to take a nap?" and that can be
the indicator that they're not being sufficiently fun to be around or easy to
get along with. Or I've said, "Sorry you didn't sleep more, because we
really do need to be there at noon." And there have been times I stayed up
too late, talking to overnight guests, or writing, or sewing, or something in
which I was engrossed and which was honestly more important that sleep to me
at that time. And if I'm tired I am careful to be extra patient that day.
And so they see an adult modelling how to be on a tired day.
I think when people who are unwilling to actually try or do something
speculate on the outcome, it's the same as people who have doled TV out an
hour at a time saying "If I let him, he would do nothing but watch TV."
It's not true, but only those who have let the TV go know that. The rest are
guessing. Or hoping that their rules are the thing preventing their dire
outcome.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
I think when people who are unwilling to actually try or do something
speculate on the outcome, it's the same as people who have doled TV out an
hour at a time saying "If I let him, he would do nothing but watch TV."
It's not true, but only those who have let the TV go know that. The rest are
guessing. Or hoping that their rules are the thing preventing their dire
outcome.
Sandra,
See my other posts.
I *do* have experience with this and its not the outcome was not the same as yours, or it wasn't when they were little. And even though it *was* a problem, we still did not assign bedtimes. It did not improve on its own until my son was about 9 or 10 years old.
That is a long time to deal with a cranky child who *did* need more sleep but didn't allow himself to *get* more sleep.
Kristen
speculate on the outcome, it's the same as people who have doled TV out an
hour at a time saying "If I let him, he would do nothing but watch TV."
It's not true, but only those who have let the TV go know that. The rest are
guessing. Or hoping that their rules are the thing preventing their dire
outcome.
Sandra,
See my other posts.
I *do* have experience with this and its not the outcome was not the same as yours, or it wasn't when they were little. And even though it *was* a problem, we still did not assign bedtimes. It did not improve on its own until my son was about 9 or 10 years old.
That is a long time to deal with a cranky child who *did* need more sleep but didn't allow himself to *get* more sleep.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] bedtime schedules
In a message dated 1/22/03 10:44:34 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
<< In the example of staying up all night,
there are plenty of kids who ignore their own biological rythms because
they think something more exciting is going on in the middle of the night
than their own biological call to sleep. >>
How long could they ignore them, though?
For some kids being awake at 3:00 a.m. (if it has always been forbidden) is
in and of itself more exciting than going to sleep.
But *IF* the need for sleep is real and natural, children will sleep.
If it's NOT natural, then parents have been lying all these years.
And one thing that is firmly denied in this culture is that some individuals
need more sleep than others. Still we have the prescribed 8 to 10 hours,
depending on age, so that adults no matter what their needs are presumed to
need 8 hours.
If I'm sick, even a little, I need eight or nine. If I'm well, I need six.
Marty needs more sleep than Holly does. Always has. We know because we let
them find their own natural levels.
<<These kids are not concerned about "tomorrow" and are not going to take to
heart a reminder of what happened "last time" because when they are "out of
kilter" they don't see it that way. They think its everyone *else* that is
out of sorts, not them.>>
Speaking as someone who knows from experience, if you let it go they WILL
come to their own routine. If you try it once or twice, or it happens
accidently (usually following something that WAS really exciting or
disturbing, or from a kid waking up from being sick, neither of which is a
legitimate test of natural sleep patterns), that's an exciting exception.
If you let it go for months or years, the kids just aren't cranky because
they DID go to sleep. Or if they are they'll be the first to say "I should
have gone to bed earlier," and then they do!
There have been times I've said, "Do you need to take a nap?" and that can be
the indicator that they're not being sufficiently fun to be around or easy to
get along with. Or I've said, "Sorry you didn't sleep more, because we
really do need to be there at noon." And there have been times I stayed up
too late, talking to overnight guests, or writing, or sewing, or something in
which I was engrossed and which was honestly more important that sleep to me
at that time. And if I'm tired I am careful to be extra patient that day.
And so they see an adult modelling how to be on a tired day.
I think when people who are unwilling to actually try or do something
speculate on the outcome, it's the same as people who have doled TV out an
hour at a time saying "If I let him, he would do nothing but watch TV."
It's not true, but only those who have let the TV go know that. The rest are
guessing. Or hoping that their rules are the thing preventing their dire
outcome.
Sandra
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