Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

It seems to me that one of the ideas talked about here is the
need to allow kids choices. We want them to be internally
motivated. We want them to not feel that there is a world of
wonderful attractive stuff out there that we are holding back from
them for their "good."

We want to make a safe place for growth, self-directed learning
and freedom to create without fear.

I affirm all of this.

On the other hand, one of the things that concerns me is that I
hear women talking about children as though they are
little adults. Kids are notoriously poor at imagining future
outcomes. They don't always tie past behavior with present
results. (Sleep is an easy example of this, particularly with young
kids.) They often won't try something new (as in food) just based
on it's color. They often aren't conscious of other people's
possessions or even their own. (I'm talking about young children
especially--under 10).

I don't fault them for this. I wouldn't demean them, spank them or
treat them condescendingly. But I would set some routines to
help them. And have. We've always had a "clean up after
yourself" policy and I haven't given that up. I don't see that they
need to agree emotionally so much as to understand the
purpose of it. I see this as helping my kids get a picture of what it
means to contribute to how we run the house.

Certainly I help them to put things away, I allow them to leave out
a game over a couple of day period if they are in the middle. I'm
not talking about rigidity. I'm talking about consideration for the
fact that seven people are sharing this space together.

Another example:

Setting a bedtime has helped my kids sleep well and spend the
next day in good spirits. If a child is surprisingly alert one night,
I might suggest she page through a book until she sleeps, or I
might rube her back and sing to her. But having her in bed at
8:30 or 9:00 is important to her and to me, whether she totally
gets why or not. She is willing and that's because we take great
care in not laying a big burden of expectations on her in all her
other waking hours. It's just the routine.

I read aloud to my younger ones around the same time each
day. I encourage my younger kids to sit with me for a chapter.
They can choose after that if they want to stay. They almost
always do. But sometimes at the outset, they haven't made the
mental transition to reading time and if I just left it to them, read
aloud time might not happen that day because our schedules
wouldn't synch up.

So I tell them that at this time, I'll read to them and they are happy
to work around it. Do we occasionally skip? Of course. But
knowing when something is going to happen that is usually
pleasurable is actually a relief to several of my kids. They want to
count on something and look forward to it. I think this makes
sense.

My middle two are asking for a routine and some accountability
for their goals because they like sharing the process and being
able to see themselves achieve their goals. My other three aren't
interested in that so they run their own gig.

We do have our weekly routines for keeping the house clean and
the kids are continuing those.

I guess what I'm saying is that I can't imagine running a family of
seven where everything every day is up for grabs. (And really, I
am a very relaxed housekeeper compared to every other mom I
know. I am in no way anal about this stuff.) But we all get along
better when there are empty spaces on tables for crafts, books
are where they should be, clothes are clean, dinnner happens
together every night and reading time is around the same time
daily.

To me, these are routines that support our unschooling lifestyle.
I don't see them competing with it at all.

I am inviting criticism or support. I'm curious to know what others
think.

Julie B

Mary Bianco

>From: "Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...>

<<On the other hand, one of the things that concerns me is that I
hear women talking about children as though they are
little adults. Kids are notoriously poor at imagining future
outcomes. They don't always tie past behavior with present
results. (Sleep is an easy example of this, particularly with young
kids.) They often won't try something new (as in food) just based
on it's color. They often aren't conscious of other people's
possessions or even their own. (I'm talking about young children
especially--under 10).>>



I agree with this in the first part. What I'm wondering is though, that if
given enough time, it all evens out and the child is the one that discovers
it on his own. The whole possession thing I think is something that comes
with age. You just can't expect a 2 year old to care for things like an 8
year old. But it doesn't last forever if handled in a way so that the child
isn't forced or made to feel "bad". The sleep thing, I also wondering that
if people actually gave the child enough time, if they really would stay up
all night. Has anyone had a young child that they allowed to stay up every
night, without comment, still staying up all night long and cranky the next
day for more than a couple of weeks??? Around here it doesn't work that way,
the novelty wore of quick and my kids would crash. And when they are tired
and out of sorts the next day, they say so. If I would "let" them stay up
for 2-3 nights and then "make" them go to bed for a few more nights and then
let them stay up and so on, what does that really prove to them and what can
they possibly figure out for themselves. Sometimes inconvenience for parents
is worth it in the long run for the children. As far as not eating something
because of how it looks, so what? I've done it too when something just
doesn't look right to me. I would hate for someone to try and convince me
otherwise on a regular basis.




<<But I would set some routines to help them. And have. We've always had a
"clean up after yourself" policy and I haven't given that up. I don't see
that they need to agree emotionally so much as to understand the purpose of
it. I see this as helping my kids get a picture of what it means to
contribute to how we run the house.

Certainly I help them to put things away, I allow them to leave out
a game over a couple of day period if they are in the middle. I'm
not talking about rigidity. I'm talking about consideration for the
fact that seven people are sharing this space together.>>




Well I'm very anal about housecleaning and neatness. I just try very hard
not to impose it on those around me!!! But with 6 of us here and dogs and
cats and friends around, I do need to have a certain look to my house. And I
do mean that "I need". No one else is that concerned with it around here!!
There are times when I will actuall tell the kids that the look of a certain
room is upsetting me to look at and would they mind helping me neaten it up.
Of course this would be all their stuff, I would never ask this of the
kitchen or living room!!! I have never had any one of them (aside from the 2
yo) tell me no. They understand that it is important to me and will help.
And I find that a certain look of their own rooms has become important to
them. Just not to the same degree as me, but then again, it's not my room.

I do say most nights sometime before bed, I think it's clean up time, can
someone help me pick up the floor? This is only in the playroom because I
need to vacuum every night to get all the crumbs from the above said 2 yo's
breakfast, lunch and dinner. Again I always have help. Sometimes I ask
before their dessert time, sometimes after, it's just never rigid and not
always an every night thing. Some nights the floor stuff is few and I just
do it or my husband will. It's not a chore or a mandatory thing.




<<We do have our weekly routines for keeping the house clean and
the kids are continuing those.

I guess what I'm saying is that I can't imagine running a family of
seven where everything every day is up for grabs. (And really, I
am a very relaxed housekeeper compared to every other mom I
know. I am in no way anal about this stuff.) But we all get along
better when there are empty spaces on tables for crafts, books
are where they should be, clothes are clean, dinnner happens
together every night and reading time is around the same time
daily.>>



I agree with a large family functioning better under those circumstances. I
just don't see it as needing chores or a schedule. My house is not up for
grabs either and it's pretty much always neat and always clean. Maybe it's
just the way one goes about it. In fact I do believe it is that very thing
that is most important. My kids probably don't even know what a chore is,
yet you would see them do things that I guess others would call chores.
(putting away their clothes, both dirty and clean, cleaning up, letting the
dogs in or out, etc) So again, I think it's the approach that is most
important.

Mary B


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Mary Bianco"
<mummyone24@h...> wrote:


>
> I agree with this in the first part. What I'm wondering is though,
that if
> given enough time, it all evens out and the child is the one that
discovers
> it on his own.

This certainly may be true, but for a family with lots of small
children, it may be too taxing to the mother to wait to find out. In
our family, I've noticed that creating patterns for things like
bedtime, meal times and clean up have been so much a part of
our lives that they aren't resented—they are the assumed
lifestyle.

The whole possession thing I think is something that comes
> with age. You just can't expect a 2 year old to care for things
like an 8
> year old.

Right! Which is why 2 yos don't play with older sister's china doll
to find out if she can "handle" it or not.


But it doesn't last forever if handled in a way so that the child
> isn't forced or made to feel "bad".

This is what I mean. I think we're dealing here more with how
parents go about creating an environment that is safe for kids to
express their feelings, desires, rebellions (yes, even these) and
more. I guess I get concerned when the tone of a discussion
sounds like there is a "right" way to be a family and it looks like
this: no bedtimes, eat whatever they want, never give them a
"chore" (as though the word itself is dangerous).

Some of the women here have expressed that their kids don't
want to help when asked, are staying up very late and their
homes feel like chaos. To keep reminding them that the children
need to have a choice about it all puts them in a powerless
position in their own lives!

Here's an example maybe some of you can relate to.

I was in LLL for ten eyars as a leader. Sometimes (many times,
actually) I would encounter a mother of multiple kids who took
the LLL approach of attachment parenting to an extreme that
was damaging her family. Nursing all night long and not getting
sleep for herself, she felt cranky and tired during the day (the
mother). Holding the baby all day, the other kids started to resent
that their mother was always unavailable and attending to the
baby. But no pacifiers, no swings, no baby seats were allowed.
No cribs, no bassinets...

You get the picture.

This kind of mother after a couple of babies invariably gave up
this form of parenting by baby four. I've seen it so many times.
They turn from total nurturing to scheduling and bottles,
nighttime "cry-it-out" systems and swear by them.

I hated both kinds of parenting.

To me, the goal of attachment parenting and on-demand nursing
was to provide babies with attentive care that would harmonize
with the family, not undermine it.

For the mother who simply must read to her toddler and
vaccuum the floor because so much crap is on it, putting the
baby in a swing isn't going to harm the baby or the mother-baby
bond. Using a pacifier in car trips isn't a violation of
demand-feeding.

I guess what I'm concerned about here is that it seems like there
is a "right way" as in behavior rather than an attitude that is
deeply interested in the child and all his concerns. To me,
parents who are able to be attentive, who give options, who are
in dialog with their children will find lots of ways to conduct their
family lives and no two should be alike.

I'd much rather see a mother set up a daily time to pick up the
house and ask her kids to do it with her, than for her to become
so discouraged with their lack of participation and caring that
she ditches all the good stuff to be gained from this lifestyle and
ricochets into the old "control" view.

Food:
I've done it too when something just
> doesn't look right to me. I would hate for someone to try and
convince me
> otherwise on a regular basis.

"key words" On a regular basis. But I have had my dh say to me,
"Julie, you've got to give this a try. It looks wretched, but it really is =

good."


> There are times when I will actuall tell the kids that the look of a
certain
> room is upsetting me to look at and would they mind helping
me neaten it up.
> Of course this would be all their stuff, I would never ask this of
the
> kitchen or living room!!! I have never had any one of them
(aside from the 2
> yo) tell me no.

Me neither. But we've lived this way since they were born. We
always pick up at five.

For families who have either been highly controlling or who have
not ever had a routine in place, it may not work like this. I feel for
them! I don't think their kids will be damaged to simply let them
know what the routine of the house is going to be.

If a child is really unhappy abuot it, why can't they dialog and
come up with an alternative plan that takes everyone's needs
into account? Why do we simply default to the child's, "No I don't
want to." and then consider that the end of the discussion?

>It's not a chore or a mandatory thing.

I think this is semantics. Ours is a habit and I think habits are
good. And we have exceptions when someone can't, doesn't
want to or needs a break.

>
> I agree with a large family functioning better under those
circumstances. I
> just don't see it as needing chores or a schedule. My house is
not up for
> grabs either and it's pretty much always neat and always clean.
Maybe it's
> just the way one goes about it. In fact I do believe it is that very
thing
> that is most important.

Here I would agree with you. I just don't like hearing that moms
feel overwhelmed and out of control in their own homes. I've
seen too many burn-out and feel like failures for not attaining
some vision of an ideal that may even be twisted from what it
ought to be.


Julie B

Pam Hartley <[email protected]>

> I'd much rather see a mother set up a daily time to pick up the
> house and ask her kids to do it with her

Keyword: Ask.

The choices are not just: mother sets daily time for clean up and
asks vs. house trashed and mom becomes complete control
freak. I know this as I live in one third choice myself.

I'd rather see children go to school rather than be abused
regularly at home. Fortunately, there are other choices if we want
them.

Pam

Kelli Traaseth

**Some of the women here have expressed that their kids don't
want to help when asked, are staying up very late and their
homes feel like chaos. To keep reminding them that the children
need to have a choice about it all puts them in a powerless
position in their own lives!**



I don't think anyone is saying that the parent shouldn't have any power, there's a balance, a partnership; between parents and children. But this balance and partnership takes time.



I'm sure it might take more time also when its a family of 8-10. You have that many more people learning something new.



Kelli








"Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...> wrote:--- In [email protected], "Mary Bianco"
<mummyone24@h...> wrote:


>
> I agree with this in the first part. What I'm wondering is though,
that if
> given enough time, it all evens out and the child is the one that
discovers
> it on his own.

This certainly may be true, but for a family with lots of small
children, it may be too taxing to the mother to wait to find out. In
our family, I've noticed that creating patterns for things like
bedtime, meal times and clean up have been so much a part of
our lives that they aren't resented�they are the assumed
lifestyle.

The whole possession thing I think is something that comes
> with age. You just can't expect a 2 year old to care for things
like an 8
> year old.

Right! Which is why 2 yos don't play with older sister's china doll
to find out if she can "handle" it or not.


But it doesn't last forever if handled in a way so that the child
> isn't forced or made to feel "bad".

This is what I mean. I think we're dealing here more with how
parents go about creating an environment that is safe for kids to
express their feelings, desires, rebellions (yes, even these) and
more. I guess I get concerned when the tone of a discussion
sounds like there is a "right" way to be a family and it looks like
this: no bedtimes, eat whatever they want, never give them a
"chore" (as though the word itself is dangerous).

Some of the women here have expressed that their kids don't
want to help when asked, are staying up very late and their
homes feel like chaos. To keep reminding them that the children
need to have a choice about it all puts them in a powerless
position in their own lives!

Here's an example maybe some of you can relate to.

I was in LLL for ten eyars as a leader. Sometimes (many times,
actually) I would encounter a mother of multiple kids who took
the LLL approach of attachment parenting to an extreme that
was damaging her family. Nursing all night long and not getting
sleep for herself, she felt cranky and tired during the day (the
mother). Holding the baby all day, the other kids started to resent
that their mother was always unavailable and attending to the
baby. But no pacifiers, no swings, no baby seats were allowed.
No cribs, no bassinets...

You get the picture.

This kind of mother after a couple of babies invariably gave up
this form of parenting by baby four. I've seen it so many times.
They turn from total nurturing to scheduling and bottles,
nighttime "cry-it-out" systems and swear by them.

I hated both kinds of parenting.

To me, the goal of attachment parenting and on-demand nursing
was to provide babies with attentive care that would harmonize
with the family, not undermine it.

For the mother who simply must read to her toddler and
vaccuum the floor because so much crap is on it, putting the
baby in a swing isn't going to harm the baby or the mother-baby
bond. Using a pacifier in car trips isn't a violation of
demand-feeding.

I guess what I'm concerned about here is that it seems like there
is a "right way" as in behavior rather than an attitude that is
deeply interested in the child and all his concerns. To me,
parents who are able to be attentive, who give options, who are
in dialog with their children will find lots of ways to conduct their
family lives and no two should be alike.

I'd much rather see a mother set up a daily time to pick up the
house and ask her kids to do it with her, than for her to become
so discouraged with their lack of participation and caring that
she ditches all the good stuff to be gained from this lifestyle and
ricochets into the old "control" view.

Food:
I've done it too when something just
> doesn't look right to me. I would hate for someone to try and
convince me
> otherwise on a regular basis.

"key words" On a regular basis. But I have had my dh say to me,
"Julie, you've got to give this a try. It looks wretched, but it really is =

good."


> There are times when I will actuall tell the kids that the look of a
certain
> room is upsetting me to look at and would they mind helping
me neaten it up.
> Of course this would be all their stuff, I would never ask this of
the
> kitchen or living room!!! I have never had any one of them
(aside from the 2
> yo) tell me no.

Me neither. But we've lived this way since they were born. We
always pick up at five.

For families who have either been highly controlling or who have
not ever had a routine in place, it may not work like this. I feel for
them! I don't think their kids will be damaged to simply let them
know what the routine of the house is going to be.

If a child is really unhappy abuot it, why can't they dialog and
come up with an alternative plan that takes everyone's needs
into account? Why do we simply default to the child's, "No I don't
want to." and then consider that the end of the discussion?

>It's not a chore or a mandatory thing.

I think this is semantics. Ours is a habit and I think habits are
good. And we have exceptions when someone can't, doesn't
want to or needs a break.

>
> I agree with a large family functioning better under those
circumstances. I
> just don't see it as needing chores or a schedule. My house is
not up for
> grabs either and it's pretty much always neat and always clean.
Maybe it's
> just the way one goes about it. In fact I do believe it is that very
thing
> that is most important.

Here I would agree with you. I just don't like hearing that moms
feel overwhelmed and out of control in their own homes. I've
seen too many burn-out and feel like failures for not attaining
some vision of an ideal that may even be twisted from what it
ought to be.


Julie B


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
>
> **Some of the women here have expressed that their kids don't
> want to help when asked, are staying up very late and their
> homes feel like chaos. To keep reminding them that the
children
> need to have a choice about it all puts them in a powerless
> position in their own lives!**
>
>
>
> I don't think anyone is saying that the parent shouldn't have any
power, there's a balance, a partnership; between parents and
children. But this balance and partnership takes time.
>
>
>
> I'm sure it might take more time also when its a family of 8-10.
You have that many more people learning something new.

Thank you Kelli. I agree. And wasn't it Sandra who said that we
should do one thing at a time, change one piece at a time? I am
taking that to heart.

The first week that we let our kids know our change of direction,
two of the kids had meltdowns later in the week. They felt that all
the happy routines we had set together were going to be
overturned and lost. Amazing isn't it?

Two of them said, "We have too much freedom now."

I reassured them that they had freedom to choose things, but not
total responsibility. We were rearranging our roles in their lives to
be supporters, cheerleaders and facilitators rather than
gate-keepers. (And believe me when I say, we are among the
most relaxed, listen-to-your-kids kind of parents we know around
here already so I didn't expect that the change would be that
significant to them).

One of the things I realized is that some personalities really
enjoy "performing" for someone else. They felt that their work
might no mlonger matter to me if I wasn't requiring it of them. So
that's been a transition... and it's gone pretty quickly actually
since I've been able to be more involved in more fun stuff than
before.

They've started to adjust. Both of these kids wanted a schedule
so I helped them to create one. Then they both tossed it within a
week. The older of the two has a very orderly way of going about
her business and the younger one is now finding his own
rhythm. I think this is very important.

But when we consulted them on clean up and weekly "chores,"
they all agreed that the house runs better when we do them that
way. So we continue.

(Someone asked me how I'd feel if my dh told me I needed to
clean up the yard... funny how everyone thinks the yard is the
province of the husband... anyway, we all do that together too.
And many's the time he's called me to come out and I've stopped
what I'm doing inside to come out and pitch in. Perhaps we just
have that esprit de corps, I don't know.)

Julie

Kelli Traaseth

**One of the things I realized is that some personalities really
enjoy "performing" for someone else. They felt that their work
might no mlonger matter to me if I wasn't requiring it of them.**



I think this type of thing is interesting too,



is this type of a personality, (a passive, people pleaser), even harder to read? My husband is this way, and was also controlled his whole life. He was not abused, I would see it as a type of coersion. They (he and his siblings) were basically told this is the way it is and lets make the best ot it.



He always thought he was a happy, well-adjusted person, well, now I come along with all these unschooling ideas (freedoms) and he reevaluates all his childhood and he really is questioning alot of things. He was never asked what he wanted, yet he never ever told his parents no either. They always thought he was OK, but now he doesn't even know what he likes or dislikes.



I think he has been relatively happy with his life, but he never realized his life could be a different way, like for example, making a living doing something he enjoys.



Anyone care to comment?



Kelli









"Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...> wrote:--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
>
> **Some of the women here have expressed that their kids don't
> want to help when asked, are staying up very late and their
> homes feel like chaos. To keep reminding them that the
children
> need to have a choice about it all puts them in a powerless
> position in their own lives!**
>
>
>
> I don't think anyone is saying that the parent shouldn't have any
power, there's a balance, a partnership; between parents and
children. But this balance and partnership takes time.
>
>
>
> I'm sure it might take more time also when its a family of 8-10.
You have that many more people learning something new.

Thank you Kelli. I agree. And wasn't it Sandra who said that we
should do one thing at a time, change one piece at a time? I am
taking that to heart.

The first week that we let our kids know our change of direction,
two of the kids had meltdowns later in the week. They felt that all
the happy routines we had set together were going to be
overturned and lost. Amazing isn't it?

Two of them said, "We have too much freedom now."

I reassured them that they had freedom to choose things, but not
total responsibility. We were rearranging our roles in their lives to
be supporters, cheerleaders and facilitators rather than
gate-keepers. (And believe me when I say, we are among the
most relaxed, listen-to-your-kids kind of parents we know around
here already so I didn't expect that the change would be that
significant to them).

One of the things I realized is that some personalities really
enjoy "performing" for someone else. They felt that their work
might no mlonger matter to me if I wasn't requiring it of them. So
that's been a transition... and it's gone pretty quickly actually
since I've been able to be more involved in more fun stuff than
before.

They've started to adjust. Both of these kids wanted a schedule
so I helped them to create one. Then they both tossed it within a
week. The older of the two has a very orderly way of going about
her business and the younger one is now finding his own
rhythm. I think this is very important.

But when we consulted them on clean up and weekly "chores,"
they all agreed that the house runs better when we do them that
way. So we continue.

(Someone asked me how I'd feel if my dh told me I needed to
clean up the yard... funny how everyone thinks the yard is the
province of the husband... anyway, we all do that together too.
And many's the time he's called me to come out and I've stopped
what I'm doing inside to come out and pitch in. Perhaps we just
have that esprit de corps, I don't know.)

Julie


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley <[email protected]>

> (Someone asked me how I'd feel if my dh told me I needed to
> clean up the yard... funny how everyone thinks the yard is the
> province of the husband...

I picked the yard because I hadn't seen you mention it.

> anyway, we all do that together too.
> And many's the time he's called me to come out and I've
stopped
> what I'm doing inside to come out and pitch in. Perhaps we
just
> have that esprit de corps, I don't know.)

Do you see the difference between requiring and asking? Do you
see that no one here is saying "Don't ask for help"?

These are honest questions, because I am getting the sense
from your posts that you really don't see a difference between
"you must do this or you will lose priviledges" (or some other
unpleasant consequence you would impose) and "I could really
use some help here if you have a few minutes".

Pam

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@m...>" <pamhartley@m...> wrote:


>
> Do you see the difference between requiring and asking?

Of course. I keep saying that I'm asking for help (not requiring it
with punishment for not complying), but I have routines in place. I
don't just wait until the spirit moves us to clean or keep house.
That's the issue for me. Why isn't that clear?

Do you
> see that no one here is saying "Don't ask for help"?

What I see is that each time anyone (including me) suggests
that we have a routine practice, the response comes back that
the child is somehow being forced or is losing his ability to
choose.

My point was that kids hae a better idea of how to be a part of a
family if the parent set up routines for basic family liviing. I think
the imput of the kids is valuable. But I guess I don't understand
this:

"Do you want to help clean up the house?" with the strong
possiblity of "no" versus

"It's our house clean up time!" and then we all get going to do it.

If someone said, "Hey, I'm on the computere and about to beat a
level, can I join you in a minute?" I'd say yes every time. If daily a
kid said, "I'm going to go to the bathroom" and skipped being a
part of the clean up time, I'd want to have a conversation about
why he or she didn't want to help and what that meant in the
home.

But if every day, every aspect of family living is a "yes/no" vote
rather than with some predictable format that works like waves
on a beach, I feel like we would lose something valuable. (What
if half of the kids thought playing on the computer was better than
meals together? In our home, we eat together. I don't think about
whether someone would prefer to eat alone in his room...)

What am I missing?

> These are honest questions, because I am getting the sense
> from your posts that you really don't see a difference between
> "you must do this or you will lose priviledges"

I have NEVER said that yet! I feel like you aren't hearing me. I
haven';t once mentioned privilege loss. I've brought up setting up
routine practices. That's what I'm talking about. Not "do this or
else."

(or some other
> unpleasant consequence you would impose) and "I could
really
> use some help here if you have a few minutes".

Or how about, "Time to clean up!"

I've asked for help plenty of times. But I guess I think it's not so
weird to think that we'll do certain things each day together to
keep the house under wraps.

Sigh. I guess I'm not being very clear.

Keep asking. I'm sure I'll get to the core of why this is bugging
me sooner or later. :)

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/22/03 9:26:19 PM, julie@... writes:

<< one of the things that concerns me is that I
hear women talking about children as though they are
little adults. Kids are notoriously poor at imagining future
outcomes. They don't always tie past behavior with present
results. (Sleep is an easy example of this, particularly with young
kids.) They often won't try something new (as in food) just based
on it's color. They often aren't conscious of other people's
possessions or even their own. (I'm talking about young children
especially--under 10).
>>

It doesn't matter if they turn foods down based on color, as long as the
parents have no requirements that they try everything or clean their plates.
In the absence of coercion to eat assigned foods, turning down foods is fine.


Part of taking care of one's possessions is keeping them out of the mouths of
dogs and out of the hands of people who won't take care of them.

<<Kids are notoriously poor at imagining future
outcomes. They don't always tie past behavior with present
results. (Sleep is an easy example of this, particularly with young
kids.) >>

And unless they're allowed to try it out, they can't begin to tie them
together until they're much older, until the mother "lets" them try it.

My kids, even under ten, learned that if they needed to get up early they
needed to go to sleep earlier. They BELIEVED it, not because I told them so,
but they had had some days when they slept later than they had planned to, or
when they really had to get up and felt too tired.

Waking kids up early for meanness because they stayed up late, "to teach them
a lesson," teaches them that other people can be spiteful. Artificial
lessons are not at all the same as honest learning from the natural world.

End of March, Kirby will have eight days straight of Driver's ed, 9:00 in the
morning. I have watched him for years decide how late to stay up on his own.
I can tell you now, that when that time comes he will be going to sleep
before midnight, probably with a couple of exceptions for his D&D games (but
those are Saturdays, and Sundays the class is at 10:00). And I will not be
making him go to bed, because I don't need to. He's sixteen and hasn't
needed me to tell him when to get up or when to go to bed for a couple of
years. When he leaves home to go to an apartment or college or whatever, he
won't 'go crazy.' His experimenting with staying up all night happened long
ago. He has more actual body awareness of his need for sleep than many
adults do, because he has had opportunities to go to sleep when he was tired,
instead of by the clock.

He doesn't have to imagine future outcomes. He lived them with things which
weren't as crucial as getting to work or getting to a test.

<<We've always had a "clean up after
yourself" policy and I haven't given that up.>>

We've modelled taking our dishes to the sink. But we've modelled something
better than "clean up after yourself." If my husband or I get up to leave
the table, we will also offer to take someone else's plate. And not at all
surprisingly, if one of them gets up they might offer to take ours. If the
rule/policy/tradition is they have to take their own, why should they take
ours? If the tradition is we take things to the sink, they don't think of
limiting what they take to their personal items. Someone will also take the
butter back to the fridge, or whatever else.

<<She is willing and that's because we take great
care in not laying a big burden of expectations on her in all her
other waking hours.>>

I don't understand this. It seems to be crucial, because you're crediting it
with why she is willing to be put to bed, but I don't understand what "it"
(the 'big burden of expectations') is.

Sandra

Betsy

** He was never asked what he wanted, yet he never ever told his
parents no either. They always thought he was OK, but now he doesn't
even know what he likes or dislikes. **

Yup. My husband is a lot like this. He pretty much never got what he
wanted as a kid (youngest of 5) and just gave up on wanting stuff.

Betsy

Kelli Traaseth

Julie,

I guess I'm wondering why you are asking? When it seems as though it is working for you?

Kelli


"Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...> wrote:--- In [email protected], "Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@m...>" <pamhartley@m...> wrote:


>
> Do you see the difference between requiring and asking?

Of course. I keep saying that I'm asking for help (not requiring it
with punishment for not complying), but I have routines in place. I
don't just wait until the spirit moves us to clean or keep house.
That's the issue for me. Why isn't that clear?

Do you
> see that no one here is saying "Don't ask for help"?

What I see is that each time anyone (including me) suggests
that we have a routine practice, the response comes back that
the child is somehow being forced or is losing his ability to
choose.

My point was that kids hae a better idea of how to be a part of a
family if the parent set up routines for basic family liviing. I think
the imput of the kids is valuable. But I guess I don't understand
this:

"Do you want to help clean up the house?" with the strong
possiblity of "no" versus

"It's our house clean up time!" and then we all get going to do it.

If someone said, "Hey, I'm on the computere and about to beat a
level, can I join you in a minute?" I'd say yes every time. If daily a
kid said, "I'm going to go to the bathroom" and skipped being a
part of the clean up time, I'd want to have a conversation about
why he or she didn't want to help and what that meant in the
home.

But if every day, every aspect of family living is a "yes/no" vote
rather than with some predictable format that works like waves
on a beach, I feel like we would lose something valuable. (What
if half of the kids thought playing on the computer was better than
meals together? In our home, we eat together. I don't think about
whether someone would prefer to eat alone in his room...)

What am I missing?

> These are honest questions, because I am getting the sense
> from your posts that you really don't see a difference between
> "you must do this or you will lose priviledges"

I have NEVER said that yet! I feel like you aren't hearing me. I
haven';t once mentioned privilege loss. I've brought up setting up
routine practices. That's what I'm talking about. Not "do this or
else."

(or some other
> unpleasant consequence you would impose) and "I could
really
> use some help here if you have a few minutes".

Or how about, "Time to clean up!"

I've asked for help plenty of times. But I guess I think it's not so
weird to think that we'll do certain things each day together to
keep the house under wraps.

Sigh. I guess I'm not being very clear.

Keep asking. I'm sure I'll get to the core of why this is bugging
me sooner or later. :)

Julie B


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 12:14:37 AM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< The sleep thing, I also wondering that
if people actually gave the child enough time, if they really would stay up
all night. Has anyone had a young child that they allowed to stay up every
night, without comment, still staying up all night long and cranky the next
day for more than a couple of weeks??? >>

I thought Holly stayed up all night at an overnight New Year's Eve party, but
I just asked her and she said, no, that she went to sleep before the other
*school* kids did (she emphasized that word). She says she went to bed at
like 2:30 but Parent Trap was on and she watched that for about half an hour.
Other kids stayed up later, but not much later. Like 3:30.

Marty stayed up all night at the New Year's Eve party he went to. And he
stayed up until Midnight on the first, just to try to make 36 hours. It was
a contest with another kid. Marty won.

Holly says she's never stayed up all night, but once at her friend's house
they stayed up until the sun came up. But "you could just see the light,"
she said (dawn) and it was summer.

Holly says this morning she wanted to wake up at 10:00 so she was sure to be
in bed by 1:00.

I tucked her in about 12:15, but she stayed awake a while, apparently. I
went to bed at 12:25. She says she watched some of Kiki's Delivery Service,
in bed. Turned it off after a while.

But with the freedom to stay up as late as she wants, she has never stayed up
all night just to do it. There's no thrill in doing what's not forbidden.

One night her friend has to stay awake all night for medical tests. Holly
woke up at 10:15 that morning, and spent the night with the friend and her
mom, going to a restaurant, and WalMart, and doing overnight things, so she
could go to the doctor. Holly came back home and took a nap the next day.
She doesn't remember how long the nap was.

Sandra

Pam Hartley <[email protected]>

> > Do you see the difference between requiring and asking?
>
> Of course. I keep saying that I'm asking for help (not requiring it
> with punishment for not complying), but I have routines in
place. I
> don't just wait until the spirit moves us to clean or keep house.
> That's the issue for me. Why isn't that clear?

I may be muddling my posters (it happens, and if so I beg
pardon) but didn't you say awhile back that if the kids kept leaving
something or other out you would take it away from them and not
let them have it for a period of time? Some game or toy or
something? That's punishment for non-compliance with your
wishes.

>
> Do you
> > see that no one here is saying "Don't ask for help"?
>
> What I see is that each time anyone (including me) suggests
> that we have a routine practice, the response comes back that
> the child is somehow being forced or is losing his ability to
> choose.

I have a hundred routines in place. The difference is that they are
my routines, I'm not imposing them on others, even if those
others are my dependent offspring.

> My point was that kids hae a better idea of how to be a part of a
> family if the parent set up routines for basic family liviing. I think
> the imput of the kids is valuable. But I guess I don't understand
> this:
>
> "Do you want to help clean up the house?" with the strong
> possiblity of "no" versus
>
> "It's our house clean up time!" and then we all get going to do
it.

One is a choice freely made, the other is an order, however
kindly couched.

If my husband were in the habit of telling me what I was going to
do now with my time versus asking me nicely for help when he
needed it, we would not have a happy marriage.

> But if every day, every aspect of family living is a "yes/no" vote
> rather than with some predictable format that works like waves
> on a beach, I feel like we would lose something valuable.
(What
> if half of the kids thought playing on the computer was better
than
> meals together? In our home, we eat together. I don't think
about
> whether someone would prefer to eat alone in his room...)
>
> What am I missing?

You're missing that for any given child playing on the computer
might be honestly more important and helpful to him on a given
day than eating a meal together. You're missing freedom of
choice, which means that when people did sit down to eat
together, it would be because they wanted each other's company
truly, not because they were "expected to" be there.


> > These are honest questions, because I am getting the
sense
> > from your posts that you really don't see a difference between
> > "you must do this or you will lose priviledges"
>
> I have NEVER said that yet! I feel like you aren't hearing me. I
> haven';t once mentioned privilege loss.

So you weren't the one who said you'd refuse to allow them the
game or whatever it was because of carelessness?

> "I could
> really
> > use some help here if you have a few minutes".
>
> Or how about, "Time to clean up!"

One is a request, the other is an announcement/order. Think
about how you would talk to a friend. Would you say, "I could
really use some help" or would you say "It's time to help me right
now".

Pam

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
>
> Julie,
>
> I guess I'm wondering why you are asking? When it seems as
though it is working for you?
>
> Kelli
>
Lots of reasons. I want to understand how it all works for you
guys. I don't know you and I'm in a learning mode.

Also, when I came here, I thought we *were* unschooling in
large measure. I have learned differently being here.

So it is all a process of understanding who you all are and what
the parameters are of all this. And I am on myriad lists and it
comes up repeatedly. So I guess for all those reasons.

Julie

Kelli Traaseth

Wow, mine is the youngest of 5 too, and I'm the youngest of 4. I some what follow these tendencies also, but I'm more vocal about it now, against it. I don't want my children to be raised this way. I am now trying to figure out my interests. The freedom of choice wasn't there.

Kelli


Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:

** He was never asked what he wanted, yet he never ever told his
parents no either. They always thought he was OK, but now he doesn't
even know what he likes or dislikes. **

Yup. My husband is a lot like this. He pretty much never got what he
wanted as a kid (youngest of 5) and just gave up on wanting stuff.

Betsy

Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 8:34:27 AM, julie@... writes:

<< I've noticed that creating patterns for things like

bedtime, meal times and clean up have been so much a part of

our lives that they aren't resented—they are the assumed

lifestyle. >>

So is school in most families.

But for some reason you've decided not to go along with the school part of
the program.

Did you come to homeschooling through religious channels?

Sandra

Betsy

**Also, when I came here, I thought we *were* unschooling in
large measure. I have learned differently being here.**


Hi, Julie --

Is it okay if I turn this around and ask you what your sources of
information were about unschooling before you came here? The whole
"definition of unschooling" that we have here throws a lot of people
when they arrive.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 8:34:27 AM, julie@... writes:

<< This is what I mean. I think we're dealing here more with how

parents go about creating an environment that is safe for kids to

express their feelings, desires, rebellions (yes, even these) and

more. >>

We don't have rebellions.

I'm serious. My children are not in the least rebellious.

<<I guess I get concerned when the tone of a discussion

sounds like there is a "right" way to be a family and it looks like

this: no bedtimes, eat whatever they want, never give them a

"chore" (as though the word itself is dangerous).>>

Well if the idea is to help children grow up without the need for rebellion,
then there is definitely a wrong way, and that is to control what they do and
say and to try to control what they think and believe.

But if the idea is for a family to LOOK a certain way, then yes--household
rules and routines are going to be pretty necessary.

<<Some of the women here have expressed that their kids don't

want to help when asked, are staying up very late and their

homes feel like chaos. >>

I believe all of those are people who have just lately begun trying to loosen
controls, and in some of the cases they seem perhaps to have just removed the
rules without laying another framework in its place.

-=-To keep reminding them that the children

need to have a choice about it all puts them in a powerless

position in their own lives!-=-

I think people are trying to empower them to live with their children
respectfully, instead of putting children back in their [child] place, and
waiting for some future time when they can be no longer "just" children.

<<This kind of mother after a couple of babies invariably gave up

this form of parenting by baby four. >>

INVARIABLY!?

I know families who did NOT, and some of them are in this forum.

<<But no pacifiers, no swings, no baby seats were allowed. >>

I haven't seen families use pacifiers much, but other things, used for a
break, not as the first line of baby-care, were not against attachment
parenting ideas.

Maybe different parts of the country are different. I think the Bible Belt
is going to resist attachment parenting for a long time because it looks like
sin. It looks like letting a child "have his way," which is a sin in itself
in some families.

<<For the mother who simply must read to her toddler and

vaccuum the floor because so much crap is on it, putting the

baby in a swing isn't going to harm the baby or the mother-baby

bond. Using a pacifier in car trips isn't a violation of

demand-feeding.>>

Okay. MAKING a child use a pacifier on a schedule would be more in keeping
with the discussion here, though. Putting a baby in a swing on a schedule,
instead of when he seemed to want to snooze hasn't been recommended anywhere.

<<I'd much rather see a mother set up a daily time to pick up the

house and ask her kids to do it with her, than for her to become

so discouraged with their lack of participation and caring that

she ditches all the good stuff to be gained from this lifestyle and

ricochets into the old "control" view.>>

Are those the only two choices?

<<Here I would agree with you. I just don't like hearing that moms

feel overwhelmed and out of control in their own homes. I've

seen too many burn-out and feel like failures for not attaining

some vision of an ideal that may even be twisted from what it

ought to be.>>

For a mom who's feeling like that to create a routine of chores and
punishments probably will NOT make the situation better.

Sandra

Sandra

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> Did you come to homeschooling through religious channels?

Yes, I suppose I did (although I have never homeschooled for
religious reasons... which used to throw my friends).

We have been very much the LLL, Dr. Sears kind of family our
whole lives. And I've never been a person who's bought into the
typical top-down family system that lots of homeschool families
use.

Most recently (for the last several years--six now), I've been
influenced by Charlotte Mason. Love her view of children and the
arts.

Betsy asked:


>Is it okay if I turn this around and ask you what your sources of
>information were about unschooling before you came here?

I read Wisdom's Way of Learning first which is very Christian and
not unschooling, I now realize. I didn't like the over-emphasis on
all the "spiritual guidance."

I also have read Cafi Cohen, Grace Llewellyn, John Holt and
Nancy Walker (Child's Work). (Though I should have these
books in a stack by my bed, I now realize!)

These have all made an impact on me at various periods of my
homescholing journey.

One of the biggest sources of input in my life came from a brain
research study I was exposed to. That helped me to really follow
the idea that less structure in learning is better for everyone.

We've embarked on this "experiment" before and then I'd start to
feel that we needed a little bit of structure to make sure certain
things weren't missed (like math).

This vision of radical unschooling and the extension of it (NCP...
which I know you don't all embrace) are going further than what I
understood it to be. And I think a lot of the articles and Internet
chat that I've been a part of about unschooling is more like
eclectic schooling or delight-driven learning.

Hope that clarifies a few things.

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 9:50:42 AM, julie@... writes:

<< Two of them said, "We have too much freedom now." >>

I had an uncle who purposely botched a robbery to get put back in prison.
It's not a good defense, that "too much freedom" argument.

<<One of the things I realized is that some personalities really
enjoy "performing" for someone else. They felt that their work
might no mlonger matter to me if I wasn't requiring it of them. >>

I enjoyed getting good grades in school. I enjoyed racing other girl scouts
to get badges. But is that really a healthy thing? My kids haven't had a
chance to have that feeling. So whether their personalities need it or not,
we don't know. So far they do things because it seems interesting, or
because it needs to be done.

<<They've started to adjust. Both of these kids wanted a schedule
so I helped them to create one. Then they both tossed it within a
week. >>

Holly has done that several times. She wants structure. But then she
immediately wants to ignore it.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 11:09:40 AM, julie@... writes:

<< (What
if half of the kids thought playing on the computer was better than
meals together? In our home, we eat together. I don't think about
whether someone would prefer to eat alone in his room...)

<<What am I missing? >>

What if one of the kids thought playing on the computer was better than
eating with the family?

What if they all did?

DO they have the option?

If the family meals are a big attraction and they LOVE that time together,
then great!


But DO they have the option?

-=-I don't think about
whether someone would prefer to eat alone in his room...-=-

I don't "think about it," but if a kid has a new video game and he's playing,
I'll say "There's food" and he has the TOTAL option to say "Save me some!" or
"I'm not hungry, but thanks anyway."

What he's doing might be more important to him at that moment than what I
thought I wanted him to do.


Sandra

Heidi <[email protected]>

Clarified, all except...what is NCP?

Heidi


--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected],
> SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> >
> > Did you come to homeschooling through religious channels?
>
> Yes, I suppose I did (although I have never homeschooled for
> religious reasons... which used to throw my friends).
>
> We have been very much the LLL, Dr. Sears kind of family our
> whole lives. And I've never been a person who's bought into the
> typical top-down family system that lots of homeschool families
> use.
>
> Most recently (for the last several years--six now), I've been
> influenced by Charlotte Mason. Love her view of children and the
> arts.
>
> Betsy asked:
>
>
> >Is it okay if I turn this around and ask you what your sources of
> >information were about unschooling before you came here?
>
> I read Wisdom's Way of Learning first which is very Christian and
> not unschooling, I now realize. I didn't like the over-emphasis on
> all the "spiritual guidance."
>
> I also have read Cafi Cohen, Grace Llewellyn, John Holt and
> Nancy Walker (Child's Work). (Though I should have these
> books in a stack by my bed, I now realize!)
>
> These have all made an impact on me at various periods of my
> homescholing journey.
>
> One of the biggest sources of input in my life came from a brain
> research study I was exposed to. That helped me to really follow
> the idea that less structure in learning is better for everyone.
>
> We've embarked on this "experiment" before and then I'd start to
> feel that we needed a little bit of structure to make sure certain
> things weren't missed (like math).
>
> This vision of radical unschooling and the extension of it (NCP...
> which I know you don't all embrace) are going further than what I
> understood it to be. And I think a lot of the articles and Internet
> chat that I've been a part of about unschooling is more like
> eclectic schooling or delight-driven learning.
>
> Hope that clarifies a few things.
>
> Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 12:14:37 AM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< My kids probably don't even know what a chore is,
yet you would see them do things that I guess others would call chores.
(putting away their clothes, both dirty and clean, cleaning up, letting the
dogs in or out, etc) So again, I think it's the approach that is most
important. >>

Last night I was watching a movie and sorting maybe six or seven loads of
laundry which had been done over the past few days and dumped on the couch.
Each kid was asked, as he or she passed through naturally, to take the
basket, put the stuff up, and bring back the basket. Two of them had some
"public stuff" (towels or sheets) in addition to their own clothes, if it was
something that gets stored near their room.

Nobody complained and I got the baskets back.

I took my husband's basket back when I went to bed, but I won't put the stuff
in his drawers. He will, and then he'll pick up the growing pile of our
bedroom stuff and put it in the empty basket.

The only bad thing of all that was Marty came to watch the movie with me, and
he paused it to go do something. After about five minutes I called him and
said it was no fun to fold laundry without the movie, so he rushedback, said
'sorry" and turned it back on. He had just not realized that it was
important for my folding routine! <g>

I hadn't done all the laundry switching. That was done by various people who
needed something clean, or who were passing by or going downstairs at one
time or another during the week.

Sandra

Sandra

Susan Fuerst

>>This is what I mean. I think we're dealing here more with how
parents go about creating an environment that is safe for kids to
express their feelings, desires, rebellions (yes, even these) and
more..<<

Julie,
This is EXACTLY the area I find myself frustrated in....the creating an
environment that allows freedom when there is a toddler as well as a ten
yr old. The movies, videos, games I would like my oldest to have free
access to and the constraints of child safety-proofing that give the
toddler freedom to explore safely.
Having four different people and ages and stages is often extremely
challenging to me these days!
Susan

Jim Selvage

Sandra,

"We've modelled taking our dishes to the sink. But we've modelled something
better than "clean up after yourself." If my husband or I get up to leave
the table, we will also offer to take someone else's plate. And not at all
surprisingly, if one of them gets up they might offer to take ours. If the
rule/policy/tradition is they have to take their own, why should they take
ours? If the tradition is we take things to the sink, they don't think of
limiting what they take to their personal items. Someone will also take the
butter back to the fridge, or whatever else.

Sandra,

This is a big problem with me. I think my husband and I have modeled
picking up our dishes and taking them to the kitchen, and I have modeled
putting them in the dishwasher, but my children don't do this. Sometimes
they take the dishes to the kitchen, but they almost never put them in the
dishwasher.

I had started to require one to load the dishwasher and one to empty. I did
this for maybe a few weeks before I came to this unschooling board. Then I
didn't require it of them, and told them why. So now, they leave dishes all
over and don't put them in the diswasher again.

What to do?

thanks,
erin

----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] On a roll--What is a routine for an
unschooler?


>
> In a message dated 1/22/03 9:26:19 PM, julie@... writes:
>
> << one of the things that concerns me is that I
> hear women talking about children as though they are
> little adults. Kids are notoriously poor at imagining future
> outcomes. They don't always tie past behavior with present
> results. (Sleep is an easy example of this, particularly with young
> kids.) They often won't try something new (as in food) just based
> on it's color. They often aren't conscious of other people's
> possessions or even their own. (I'm talking about young children
> especially--under 10).
> >>
>
> It doesn't matter if they turn foods down based on color, as long as the
> parents have no requirements that they try everything or clean their
plates.
> In the absence of coercion to eat assigned foods, turning down foods is
fine.
>
>
> Part of taking care of one's possessions is keeping them out of the mouths
of
> dogs and out of the hands of people who won't take care of them.
>
> <<Kids are notoriously poor at imagining future
> outcomes. They don't always tie past behavior with present
> results. (Sleep is an easy example of this, particularly with young
> kids.) >>
>
> And unless they're allowed to try it out, they can't begin to tie them
> together until they're much older, until the mother "lets" them try it.
>
> My kids, even under ten, learned that if they needed to get up early they
> needed to go to sleep earlier. They BELIEVED it, not because I told them
so,
> but they had had some days when they slept later than they had planned to,
or
> when they really had to get up and felt too tired.
>
> Waking kids up early for meanness because they stayed up late, "to teach
them
> a lesson," teaches them that other people can be spiteful. Artificial
> lessons are not at all the same as honest learning from the natural world.
>
> End of March, Kirby will have eight days straight of Driver's ed, 9:00 in
the
> morning. I have watched him for years decide how late to stay up on his
own.
> I can tell you now, that when that time comes he will be going to sleep
> before midnight, probably with a couple of exceptions for his D&D games
(but
> those are Saturdays, and Sundays the class is at 10:00). And I will not
be
> making him go to bed, because I don't need to. He's sixteen and hasn't
> needed me to tell him when to get up or when to go to bed for a couple of
> years. When he leaves home to go to an apartment or college or whatever,
he
> won't 'go crazy.' His experimenting with staying up all night happened
long
> ago. He has more actual body awareness of his need for sleep than many
> adults do, because he has had opportunities to go to sleep when he was
tired,
> instead of by the clock.
>
> He doesn't have to imagine future outcomes. He lived them with things
which
> weren't as crucial as getting to work or getting to a test.
>
> <<We've always had a "clean up after
> yourself" policy and I haven't given that up.>>
>
> We've modelled taking our dishes to the sink. But we've modelled
something
> better than "clean up after yourself." If my husband or I get up to leave
> the table, we will also offer to take someone else's plate. And not at
all
> surprisingly, if one of them gets up they might offer to take ours. If
the
> rule/policy/tradition is they have to take their own, why should they take
> ours? If the tradition is we take things to the sink, they don't think of
> limiting what they take to their personal items. Someone will also take
the
> butter back to the fridge, or whatever else.
>
> <<She is willing and that's because we take great
> care in not laying a big burden of expectations on her in all her
> other waking hours.>>
>
> I don't understand this. It seems to be crucial, because you're crediting
it
> with why she is willing to be put to bed, but I don't understand what "it"
> (the 'big burden of expectations') is.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/2003 6:18:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jselvage@... writes:


> I had started to require one to load the dishwasher and one to empty. I did
> this for maybe a few weeks before I came to this unschooling board. Then I
> didn't require it of them, and told them why. So now, they leave dishes
> all
> over and don't put them in the diswasher again.
>
> What to do?
>

"Could you please put your dishes in the dishwasher when you're finished? It
makes my life so much easier when I don't have to pick up after you all day.
It also allows me to have more time to spend with you and to take you places
and to be able to do fun things and be more creative. I really appreciate it!
Thanks!"

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> <<For the mother who simply must read to her toddler and
>
> vaccuum the floor because so much crap is on it, putting the
>
> baby in a swing isn't going to harm the baby or the mother-baby
>
> bond. Using a pacifier in car trips isn't a violation of
>
> demand-feeding.>>
>
>


When I was actually a practicing lactation consultant and working with
pregnant and postpartum mothers I know I would try to not judge their
choices. If they were set on not using pacifier, swings, and were using a
sling etc I would try to help the family to make that work for them. I think
that by implying that they should use these things and not feel bad about it
you could damage their confidence. The better choice for me has always been
to try to work with what they want to do. I give them information and
support their choices. And for some mothers it is violating what they feel
they want to achieve with their baby.

I know that I never used a swing, play pen, bassinet, crib, pacifier, bottle
etc. and we are great. And I feel that if I had used these things it could
have damaged our parent-child bond. And I live in the Bible Belt, LOL. Not
that I am the norm here.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<(What
if half of the kids thought playing on the computer was better than
meals together? In our home, we eat together. I don't think about
whether someone would prefer to eat alone in his room...)



My boys hardly ever eat with us. They are never hungry when we are. I was
brought up to eat three meals a day and at certain times and have a hard time
getting out of that. My boys eat when hungry and eat until not hungry. It
is my goal to never interfere with that. Don't want them to have the same
issues I have. They are in control of food.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], genant2@a...
wrote:

>
> When I was actually a practicing lactation consultant and
working with
> pregnant and postpartum mothers I know I would try to not
judge their
> choices. If they were set on not using pacifier, swings, and
were using a
> sling etc I would try to help the family to make that work for
them. I think
> that by implying that they should use these things and not feel
bad about it
> you could damage their confidence.

Trust me. As an LLL leader, I didn't suggest these if a mother
didn't want to use them. What I *did* do, however, is not look
down at a mother who felt overwhelmed and felt she couldn't
admit to pacifier use at a meeting. Whenever someone feels she
must hide in a group to fit in, the ideology ends up on shaky
ground.

The better choice for me has always been
> to try to work with what they want to do.

That was my point. And sometimes it meant nurturing a mom
who made choices that didn't jibe with LLL ideals 100%.


> I know that I never used a swing, play pen, bassinet, crib,
pacifier, bottle
> etc. and we are great.

Same here. (Though a couple of our kids used a pacifier and the
last one had a crib for naps). I didn't even have a stroller for the
first three kids and all of them slept in our room.

And I feel that if I had used these things it could
> have damaged our parent-child bond.

And I am convinced that the parent-child bond isn't guaranteed
by these practices either.

My only point in using that analogy is to expand some of this
dialog--to make room for admissions and needs. When there is
such a strong idealism being communicated in every post,
people shut down telling the truth to fit in. But then they don't get
the help they actually need.

Julie B