[email protected]

In a message dated 1/17/03 2:28:54 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< But boys get their curiosity blocked because there isn't any
acceptable "pornography" for boys. >>

Whether it's "acceptable" or not, there is a fair amount of written
fanfiction involving characters from comic book series, fantasy series, and
even video games. Some of it is just adventure/romance, and some is at least
as graphic as romance novels. Maybe it's for and by girls, though, I don't
know.

Two nights ago I wanted to play Destruct-o-Match on Neopets. Both Marty (14)
and Holly (11) play Neopets, and I have an account (just so I can play that
pattern-falling cascading game myself without having to ask Marty) and our
Mac Powerstrip we use to get to recent files, recent programs, recent sites
was FULL of porn stuff. I didn't open any, the titles themselves were gross
enough. OH!! I had wanted to get to Netflix to cancel getting a DVD I had
just rented (which didn't work).


Well anyway, usually I use it to get to Neopets games page.

I called Marty in, and said "Marty, this is a bit much."

He said "Most of it was pop-ups mom, I didn't really look at it all much.
Just some."

I asked him if he could cover those kinds of trails over so I didn't have to
know and so Holly wouldn't accidently see. I said he needed to open a bunch
of CLEAN websites and look at some better stuff so that would be on the
trail. He told me he could delete the trail. I said I didn't think he
could, that I had even asked Leon, one of the developers, who said it only
works on the Mac OSX version, not 9.

But Marty is a teenaged boy, so besides his porn curiosity he has a computer
facility. And he figured out a three-step process to erase that list through
Internet Explorer.

If I say "NO, never ever even look," I risk losing the communication we have
within which he will just tell me what he's seen and knows and where it came
from.

But that story has gone two days now. At first he was embarrassed and "Mom,
okay, I know, don't talk to me about it anymore." So I said I wanted to talk
to him one more time the next day, about whether he knows the reasons people
object to kids looking at porn.

The next day came and had nearly passed without me remembering, when he came
and said, "Okay, mom."

"What?"

"You wanted to talk to me about porn."

"Oh! Thanks. I hadn't remembered."

So I asked if he knew the objections. He said no. I said, "In all your
reading and listening you haven't heard objections to porn?"

"Well, that its illegal for me to see it."

I talked to him about degradation of women, about creating unhealthy and
unreasonable expectations in marriages, and that normal sex wasn't like that.
He said "Well, DUH, mom!" I said some people were messed up by WANTING it
to be. He seemed surprised that that could happen.

I told him that some of those who are filmed are not quite volunteers and
told him two stories, one of the mom of girls his age he's known his whole
life, who was photographed as a kid for posed stills which were sold out of
Oklahoma. It was shocking for him, and I don't know much detail, but naming
a person he knew who had been victimized was effective. I told him of a
drug dealer and illegal snake importer my younger half-brother had taken up
with some years back, who videod him and his then-girlfriend, and used it as
blackmail (she was from a Mormon family) to get them to deliver drugs for him.

Then I said I didn't think it was the most horrible thing people could do, to
look at pictures, but he REALLY needed to be careful because it's illegal and
I didn't want the county coming to talk to me about anything they were doing.

(I had a similar moment with Holly later that evening about going outside in
a teensy fancy t-shirt and nylon pajama pants, no shoes, in January, while
she has a sore throat. "Illegal," I told her, for parents to allow that,
and let's not draw attention to a loose lifestyle by being outside in the
cold without proper attire.)

I told Marty that women tend to prefer word-porn and so they don't get
caught, but pictures were easy to find and more offensive.

I told him one danger was obsession. I didn't go into that much, because
some of the original arguments about obsession were the cost. I did have a
friend years ago who had a large collection of porn videos that had cost him
$60 to $80 apiece. Had he had the internet, his obsession wouldn't have
ruined his finances, nor left a mountain of evidence to shock his mom.
(That friend had a sex change operation since then, so I think it was his way
of dealing with deeper psychological and biological situations, and that was
way too much to tell Marty.)

Then I asked him if he had ANY idea how much trouble some other boys his age
would get into if their parents caught them having looked at that kind of
stuff on the computer. He said "Lots?" I talked about loss of computer
accesss, grounding, and physical spanking by some big grown man.

He said he had been mostly embarrassed when I first talked to him because he
had had friends in the house. They couldn't hear us, but he had to leave
where they were, talk to me, and go back in there, and it just embarrassed
him. I said in those worst-case situations, the parents would have called
all of the friends' parents, said to come get them, told them why, and some
of THEM would have been grounded and in trouble just for hanging out with
someone who had looked at porn.

I doubt he really fully believes me on those things, or maybe he can't fathom
a parent doing that to a child.

I don't mind having a kid who can't readily imagine being hit by an angry,
grown man or can't imagine being told "You stay in your room for a month and
don't even touch a computer."

For anyone who has read this far and is offended, I didn't mean to throw this
out to offend anyone. It's a candid, current situation involving a real teen.

And usually the trail on this real teen's internet use has Neopets, AoN (a
role-playing game), humor sites, and in-person friends' journals. People
who know Marty wouldn't think of him as a nasty kid. He's not. He is coming
into adulthood, though, and he's curious.

I think similar to make-up, if it is declared "only for adults," and a girl
waits and waits and WAITS until she can use it and is then unlikely to just
let it go unused, a boy who is slapped away from any glimpse of nudity until
he's eighteen is GOING to immerse himself in his newfound access for a while
the moment he gets a chance.

Keith and I were out grocery shopping, and talking about Kirby turning
seventeen this year. I said I used to want to have a big eighteenth birthday
celebration for him, like a graduation, but I no longer want to do that. I
don't want to declare an end to his learning, nor to his living with us if he
wants to stay. Keith said he had no ideas either, but that was fine. Said
"Well, I'm not going to get him drunk and take him to a whorehouse, so
there's probably going to be no rite of passage."

Kirby wouldn't want any of that anyway. ANOTHER good thing. When he turns
eighteen, he'll have more legal rights, but there won't be the effect of huge
tension released. He'll have no restrictions suddenly lifted.

I know this won't suit everyone's belief system, but it is working with us to
produce mature, calm, considerate, communicative teenaged boys. They're not
angry with us, they're not reactionary, they're not sneaky.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/17/03 11:28:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> If I say "NO, never ever even look," I risk losing the communication we have
>
> within which he will just tell me what he's seen and knows and where it
> came
> from.
>
>

I so want that with my boys when the time comes. They are only 5 and 8 now
but hope by having the open relationship we do now that it will stay that way
when they are older.

My 5 year old saw someone spank a child on TV. It didn't show the spanking
but showed them getting into position and went to the outside of the house
and you heard the rest. It was a sitcom. He looked at me and said "that's
terrible, why would she do that" There was also laughing in the background
(supposed to be like the child deserved it) he said "That isn't funny" I
agreed. I like that my boys are shocked and find it hard to imagine those
situations. Good opportunity for discussion.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

To Sandra:

Thank you for such a candid and helpful post. I want to share it
with my son (the gist of it). Same as you—we have excellent
lines of communication open between us at this point. And I
want so much for that to remain the case. I've shared about the
demeaning aspects of porn and the dangers of it becoming an
obsession.

My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is
unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole.
For kids from heathly families, it is more likely a form of curiosity.
The growth of the Internet is what makes it so much more
accessible and "hardcore" than it was when our husbands
snuck copies of Playboy with airbrushed centerfolds.

I really appreciate hearing how you've dealt with so many of the
issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with
your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.

Thanks for taking so much time to write that all out.

Julie B

Stephanie Elms

> I think similar to make-up, if it is declared "only for
> adults," and a girl
> waits and waits and WAITS until she can use it and is then
> unlikely to just
> let it go unused, a boy who is slapped away from any glimpse
> of nudity until
> he's eighteen is GOING to immerse himself in his newfound
> access for a while
> the moment he gets a chance.

Funny thing...I was allowed to wear make-up in stages...first year blush,
then eye shadow then lip stick and finally mascara (I really wanted to wear
it but my mom thought that I had beautiful thick lashes as it was). Guess what
the only make-up I wear now is...

Stephanie E.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/17/03 7:13:19 PM, julie@... writes:

<< My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is

unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole. >>

I agree. I think it's the same as other "internet dangers." If a child has
nothing else to do and no affirmation of wholeness, the internet can be an
escape from what seems a lack of life. But when life is big and real and
happy, the child will be there, in his own real life.

<<I really appreciate hearing how you've dealt with so many of the

issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with

your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.>>

Thanks. Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going so
well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing to
share.

Sandra

Kelli Traaseth

**Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going so
well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing to
share. **


Sandra,

Please keep writing these stories, they are so helpful. I know I've said it before but it bears repeating.

The stories are so different from how I was raised and it really is so nice to hear them. I know I havn't run into alot of people who raise their children this way. This and a few other places are my only sources.

I also hope to have this kind-of a relationship with my children, I want them to come to me when they have questions.

Kelli

SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 1/17/03 7:13:19 PM, julie@... writes:

<< My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is

unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole. >>

I agree. I think it's the same as other "internet dangers." If a child has
nothing else to do and no affirmation of wholeness, the internet can be an
escape from what seems a lack of life. But when life is big and real and
happy, the child will be there, in his own real life.

<<I really appreciate hearing how you've dealt with so many of the

issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with

your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.>>

Thanks. Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going so
well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing to
share.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**Sandra,

Please keep writing these stories, they are so helpful. I know I've
said it before but it
bears repeating.

The stories are so different from how I was raised and it really is so
nice to hear
them. I know I havn't run into alot of people who raise
their children this
way. This and a few other places are my only sources.**


Let me toss out a "me, too".

While I was raised by nice parents who did a lot of discussing, and not
a lot of controlling, it's still beneficial for me to hear detailed,
real stories about parent-child interaction. I may not be a LONG way
away from being the parent I want to be, but I'm a little way away from
it, and don't run into too many good role models IRL that share my philosophy.

It helped in our house, one late night, when my son wanted more food
before going to bed. I think he wanted a cheese stick from the
refrigerator. I said "sure, go get it", but he hemmed and hawed and
shuffled his feet. Because we had just been discussing topics like this
on the list, I asked him "would it taste better if I got it for you?"
and he said "yes" and seemed pleased and relieved. Without reminders
here that it's okay to indulgently love him and cater to him, I would be
more inclined to be pushing for "independence", especially in areas
where he's "behind" the average kid. (e.g. making his own sandwiches
and cereal.)

Betsy

bry2 <[email protected]>

Sandra,

Thank you for sharing your story. It is helpful to hear other
unschoolers describe how they handle difficult situations like these.

I always strive to give my kids real information and real reasons for
why they should act in their own best interests.

Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't, even when they really
understand the reasons behind my requests. But I have recently
realized that sometimes kids rebel against *society*, not their home
life.

What does a parent do in *that* situation??!!

Kristen



--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
>
> **Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
> cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE
going so
> well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth
continuing to
> share. **
>
>
> Sandra,
>
> Please keep writing these stories, they are so helpful. I know
I've said it before but it bears repeating.
>
> The stories are so different from how I was raised and it really is
so nice to hear them. I know I havn't run into alot of
people who raise their children this way. This and a few other
places are my only sources.
>
> I also hope to have this kind-of a relationship with my children,
I want them to come to me when they have questions.
>
> Kelli
>
> SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/17/03 7:13:19 PM, julie@b... writes:
>
> << My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is
>
> unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole. >>
>
> I agree. I think it's the same as other "internet dangers." If a
child has
> nothing else to do and no affirmation of wholeness, the internet
can be an
> escape from what seems a lack of life. But when life is big and
real and
> happy, the child will be there, in his own real life.
>
> <<I really appreciate hearing how you've dealt with so many of the
>
> issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with
>
> your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.>>
>
> Thanks. Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry
that I'll
> cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE
going so
> well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth
continuing to
> share.
>
> Sandra
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@e...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@h...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
address an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
>
William Wordsworth
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/18/03 10:09:49 PM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< But I have recently
realized that sometimes kids rebel against *society*, not their home
life.

<<What does a parent do in *that* situation??!! >>

I guess it depends whether the parents identify with and squarely defend that
aspect of Society. Then it becomes one and the same.

Sandra