Things we HAVE to do...
Heidi <[email protected]>
what about this? I've been clicking all over the place through this
list in the past few days heh heh my kids got a definite unschooling
day TODAY! Watched movies and played puter games,and read. We girls
exercised together, and Robby helped with the bread. Oh. They cleaned
their rooms, too.
Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about not
making the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
Should I quit doing the checkbook?
The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I never
want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
our family, I am the bookkeeper, because my husband has short term
memory loss and Severe Procrastinitis (the first, from a bad car
crash w/head injuries, the second...LOL )
If I didn't do it, we'd be in deep trouble. In fact, I took over when
his mismanagement GOT US into deep trouble with the bank, as well as
lots of local merchants, and I've been digging us out for a year or
so.
You see my point? Sometimes life hands you things that you 1)don't
like 2) aren't any good at and 3) find extremely stressing, boring,
and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY. Mind you, I don't believe
that children should have a steady diet of this kind of thing, but
isn't there some value in giving the kids things to do, that they
don't want to do? Doesn't it build character or something?
Someone's website (sandra dodd?) has Calvin (of Calvin &
Hobbes)...well, it shows the poor kid sitting all bored at his school
desk, but there was no picture of him coming away from his comic book
reading with a twitch, or his eyeballs spinning out of his head from
watching so much TV. These are also classic Calvin and Hobbes images.
Hmmm, I think I know the answer, and it, too, comes from C&H...his
dad, handing him a snow shovel, showing him a vast expanse to shovel,
and telling him it builds character.
Oh my word. I'm coming up with questions and answers SIMULTANEOUSLY!
I think I understand this unschooling thing and it's scaring me! LOL
still brewing things in the ole cranium
Heidi
list in the past few days heh heh my kids got a definite unschooling
day TODAY! Watched movies and played puter games,and read. We girls
exercised together, and Robby helped with the bread. Oh. They cleaned
their rooms, too.
Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about not
making the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
Should I quit doing the checkbook?
The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I never
want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
our family, I am the bookkeeper, because my husband has short term
memory loss and Severe Procrastinitis (the first, from a bad car
crash w/head injuries, the second...LOL )
If I didn't do it, we'd be in deep trouble. In fact, I took over when
his mismanagement GOT US into deep trouble with the bank, as well as
lots of local merchants, and I've been digging us out for a year or
so.
You see my point? Sometimes life hands you things that you 1)don't
like 2) aren't any good at and 3) find extremely stressing, boring,
and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY. Mind you, I don't believe
that children should have a steady diet of this kind of thing, but
isn't there some value in giving the kids things to do, that they
don't want to do? Doesn't it build character or something?
Someone's website (sandra dodd?) has Calvin (of Calvin &
Hobbes)...well, it shows the poor kid sitting all bored at his school
desk, but there was no picture of him coming away from his comic book
reading with a twitch, or his eyeballs spinning out of his head from
watching so much TV. These are also classic Calvin and Hobbes images.
Hmmm, I think I know the answer, and it, too, comes from C&H...his
dad, handing him a snow shovel, showing him a vast expanse to shovel,
and telling him it builds character.
Oh my word. I'm coming up with questions and answers SIMULTANEOUSLY!
I think I understand this unschooling thing and it's scaring me! LOL
still brewing things in the ole cranium
Heidi
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/03 9:12:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
Should I quit doing the checkbook?
The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I never
want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
our family, I am the bookkeeper, <<
But unschooling isn't about always doing what you totally enjoy. I do the
checkbook as well. And for the same reasons as you. But I don't do it
because someone is telling me that I have to. I do it because the
consequences of me not doing it would be terrible. And I enjoy knowing how
much money I have or do not have and not being overdrawn and paying those
consequences. And unschooling isn't about making kids do anything,
interesting or not it should be their choice.
and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY.<<
My children are not always doing what they enjoy. They clean their room
because they want to find something. They don't enjoy it. And they aren't
doing it because I am making them, they do it for a reason all their own. My
son reads the gaming book not because he totally enjoys it but because he
needs the information inside to go further with the game. Unschooling is
about making your own choices not being told what to do and when and how.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
>>Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about notmaking the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
Should I quit doing the checkbook?
The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I never
want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
our family, I am the bookkeeper, <<
But unschooling isn't about always doing what you totally enjoy. I do the
checkbook as well. And for the same reasons as you. But I don't do it
because someone is telling me that I have to. I do it because the
consequences of me not doing it would be terrible. And I enjoy knowing how
much money I have or do not have and not being overdrawn and paying those
consequences. And unschooling isn't about making kids do anything,
interesting or not it should be their choice.
>>You see my point? Sometimes life hands you things that you 1)don'tlike 2) aren't any good at and 3) find extremely stressing, boring,
and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY.<<
My children are not always doing what they enjoy. They clean their room
because they want to find something. They don't enjoy it. And they aren't
doing it because I am making them, they do it for a reason all their own. My
son reads the gaming book not because he totally enjoys it but because he
needs the information inside to go further with the game. Unschooling is
about making your own choices not being told what to do and when and how.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
This is my dad's biggest complaint about my homeschooling (he does not know that I am
"unschooling" but he knows me well enough to know that I am not going to be overly
structured about it. He thinks that I am making a big mistake by not requiring Jason (6 yo)
to practice writing or other things that he does not like. We had a huge discussion and
he thinks that Jason needs to learn that sometimes you have to do things that you do not
like to do.
I have been thinking about that and I realize that there are tons of ways that Jason will
learn this on his own and I don't have to "teach" him this lesson by forcing him to
do things. He has a little brother, so sometimes he does not get to do what he wants
to do. And you know where I have seen him really learn this? Computer games! Jason gets
*so* upset at not being able to complete the game on the first try. He hates playing and
losing. But he also has practiced and mastered games before, so he has learned the
joy of getting better at something. He has learned that sometimes you have to do
something (deal with the frustration of losing) to get a reward (winning the game).
I have to also imagine that somewhere down the line there will be a time when Jason has
to do or learn something that he does not want to do in order to get something he does
want. That is life, right? And when that time comes, because it is his choice, he will
do it and learn from it. My dad keeps talking about the self-discipline that is learned
in school...is it really self-discipline if it is imposed by a teacher? I guess that if
you buy into the working for grades (like my dad and I both did) then yes, you can
develop good discipline...but what if you don't care about doing well? I doubt that
you would learn about self-discipline. BUT if there is something that you care about
and want to achieve, *that* is where you will learn self-discipline. So making Jason
do writing every day will not teach him self-discipline...it will teach him (if I am
lucky) that he can make me happy by doing what I want him to do (or if I am not lucky)
it will teach him to hate writing.
Why does this stuff make so much sense to me but has my dad shaking his head?
Stephanie E.
"unschooling" but he knows me well enough to know that I am not going to be overly
structured about it. He thinks that I am making a big mistake by not requiring Jason (6 yo)
to practice writing or other things that he does not like. We had a huge discussion and
he thinks that Jason needs to learn that sometimes you have to do things that you do not
like to do.
I have been thinking about that and I realize that there are tons of ways that Jason will
learn this on his own and I don't have to "teach" him this lesson by forcing him to
do things. He has a little brother, so sometimes he does not get to do what he wants
to do. And you know where I have seen him really learn this? Computer games! Jason gets
*so* upset at not being able to complete the game on the first try. He hates playing and
losing. But he also has practiced and mastered games before, so he has learned the
joy of getting better at something. He has learned that sometimes you have to do
something (deal with the frustration of losing) to get a reward (winning the game).
I have to also imagine that somewhere down the line there will be a time when Jason has
to do or learn something that he does not want to do in order to get something he does
want. That is life, right? And when that time comes, because it is his choice, he will
do it and learn from it. My dad keeps talking about the self-discipline that is learned
in school...is it really self-discipline if it is imposed by a teacher? I guess that if
you buy into the working for grades (like my dad and I both did) then yes, you can
develop good discipline...but what if you don't care about doing well? I doubt that
you would learn about self-discipline. BUT if there is something that you care about
and want to achieve, *that* is where you will learn self-discipline. So making Jason
do writing every day will not teach him self-discipline...it will teach him (if I am
lucky) that he can make me happy by doing what I want him to do (or if I am not lucky)
it will teach him to hate writing.
Why does this stuff make so much sense to me but has my dad shaking his head?
Stephanie E.
Deborah Lewis
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 02:11:24 -0000 "Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...>
writes:
***Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about not
making the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
Should I quit doing the checkbook?***
You could if you really hate it. I know someone who cashes his paycheck
and pays all his bills in cash or postal money order. He's never had a
checking account and he's 43 years old.
Who is *making* you use a checkbook? Checking accounts are not
mandatory and in fact, by the time our children are grown they may even
be obsolete.
***If I didn't do it, we'd be in deep trouble. In fact, I took over when
his mismanagement GOT US into deep trouble with the bank, as well as
lots of local merchants, and I've been digging us out for a year or
so.***
Even if you don't have an interest in balancing the checkbook it sounds
like you have an interest in keeping your finances straight. It
benefits you in some way to know how much money you have to spend on
groceries every week. The check book *is* a choice. For that matter,
maintaining a home that requires you to pay utilities is a choice.
Buying on credit is a choice. Purchasing *anything* is a choice. We
make these choices because they make our lives better or easier. We make
them because the alternative is less appealing. But it is all choice.
At any time we can make different ones.
***You see my point? Sometimes life hands you things that you 1)don't
like 2) aren't any good at and 3) find extremely stressing, boring,
and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY. Mind you, I don't believe
that children should have a steady diet of this kind of thing, but
isn't there some value in giving the kids things to do, that they
don't want to do? Doesn't it build character or something? ***
My mom used to burn our toast every morning. She'd give us black toast,
(not to be mean, just because we had a wonky toaster) and tell us it
would build character. I was pleased, many years later, to send her an
article about research claiming charcoal was carcinogenic. <g>
I can't think of anything about burnt toast that helped me be a better
person.
If your mother had you balance her checkbook can you be sure that would
make you like doing it now? What would the value of that preparation
be? To just start your suffering a little sooner?
Talking about things we might have to do or face even if we don't want
to; some women become victims of spousal abuse. Should we beat our girl
children so they know what to look out for? Someday our children may
need surgery. Do we set them up for a nose job in preparation for a
maybe, someday kidney transplant? Do you give them medicine when they
don't need it to get them ready for when they might?
Our kids will end up doing all kinds of things that might not be wildly
interesting to them. They will clean their toilets because they want
their dog to have fresh drinking water. They will get dressed because
they don't want to shock their bosses. They will pay for items because
they don't want to get arrested for stealing.
Just like us they will make choices about the things that will make their
lives better or easier and they will do what it takes to accomplish that.
Is it really worth it to have kids unhappy about doing dishes, or
dusting? Joyce asked that question I think. Are clean dishes more
important than a happy child? Really. In thirty years will you be
more pleased to remember a clean house or happy kids? In thirty years
which will matter more?
Deb L
writes:
***Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about not
making the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
Should I quit doing the checkbook?***
You could if you really hate it. I know someone who cashes his paycheck
and pays all his bills in cash or postal money order. He's never had a
checking account and he's 43 years old.
Who is *making* you use a checkbook? Checking accounts are not
mandatory and in fact, by the time our children are grown they may even
be obsolete.
***If I didn't do it, we'd be in deep trouble. In fact, I took over when
his mismanagement GOT US into deep trouble with the bank, as well as
lots of local merchants, and I've been digging us out for a year or
so.***
Even if you don't have an interest in balancing the checkbook it sounds
like you have an interest in keeping your finances straight. It
benefits you in some way to know how much money you have to spend on
groceries every week. The check book *is* a choice. For that matter,
maintaining a home that requires you to pay utilities is a choice.
Buying on credit is a choice. Purchasing *anything* is a choice. We
make these choices because they make our lives better or easier. We make
them because the alternative is less appealing. But it is all choice.
At any time we can make different ones.
***You see my point? Sometimes life hands you things that you 1)don't
like 2) aren't any good at and 3) find extremely stressing, boring,
and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY. Mind you, I don't believe
that children should have a steady diet of this kind of thing, but
isn't there some value in giving the kids things to do, that they
don't want to do? Doesn't it build character or something? ***
My mom used to burn our toast every morning. She'd give us black toast,
(not to be mean, just because we had a wonky toaster) and tell us it
would build character. I was pleased, many years later, to send her an
article about research claiming charcoal was carcinogenic. <g>
I can't think of anything about burnt toast that helped me be a better
person.
If your mother had you balance her checkbook can you be sure that would
make you like doing it now? What would the value of that preparation
be? To just start your suffering a little sooner?
Talking about things we might have to do or face even if we don't want
to; some women become victims of spousal abuse. Should we beat our girl
children so they know what to look out for? Someday our children may
need surgery. Do we set them up for a nose job in preparation for a
maybe, someday kidney transplant? Do you give them medicine when they
don't need it to get them ready for when they might?
Our kids will end up doing all kinds of things that might not be wildly
interesting to them. They will clean their toilets because they want
their dog to have fresh drinking water. They will get dressed because
they don't want to shock their bosses. They will pay for items because
they don't want to get arrested for stealing.
Just like us they will make choices about the things that will make their
lives better or easier and they will do what it takes to accomplish that.
Is it really worth it to have kids unhappy about doing dishes, or
dusting? Joyce asked that question I think. Are clean dishes more
important than a happy child? Really. In thirty years will you be
more pleased to remember a clean house or happy kids? In thirty years
which will matter more?
Deb L
Mary Bianco
>From: "Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...>" ><<You see my point? Sometimes life hands you things that you 1)don't
like 2) aren't any good at and 3) find extremely stressing, boring,
and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY. Mind you, I don't believe
that children should have a steady diet of this kind of thing, but
isn't there some value in giving the kids things to do, that they
don't want to do? Doesn't it build character or something?>>
Well no you really don't HAVE to do it. So why do you? Because it's
important for you to have it done so that you know you won't get into
financial trouble. So you can either do it and not like it but not like the
outcome of not doing it even more. OR, you could find an easier way to deal
with doing something you want done but don't like. Hire someone to do it for
you. Know someone good with numbers who would enjoy the challenge and some
extra money? You could do something on the computer. Not familiar with the
programs as I refuse to do any finances anything but the good old pen and
paper way. You could find maybe an easier way to manage it. I round
everything off higher than what was spent in $5.00 increments. That way
there is extra in the bank for mistakes and if there are not missed checks
or withdrawals, I take out the extra to save.
Point being no one really has to do anything but die when it's their time.
We all have choices and if the choices we make disappoint us, we have
choices to fix that. Find another way or do something else. I don't want my
kids stuck in a job, relationship or situation that they don't like and stay
there because they feel like they HAVE to. I want them to have the freedom
to figure other ways and take other choices and take chances to find what
makes them happy. THAT builds character.
Mary B
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kayb85 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Heidi
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
Do your kids want their rooms cleaned? Then they'll do it. If they
don't care, they won't. If you care that their rooms get cleaned but
they don't, then you should do it.
I don't make beds. I think it's a waste of time. For other people,
it's really important. If someone came to my house and asked me why
my beds weren't made, I'd say because I don't care enough about
having them made to do it.
I've got the concept down. I see the wisdom in it. I'm really,
really trying to make it work. But sometimes when the house looks
like it does right now, and I am facing a few hours of cleaning in
order to shape it up, I get frustrated.
Dh doesn't necessarily agree with me either. He kind of does, but a
messy house bothers him more than it bothers me. Today he came home
and said that if he has to clean the house when he gets home, don't
expect him to do anything else. He is in a grumpy mood because he has
a bachache and didn't sleep well last night, but it still made me
feel bad. I felt guilty that I wasn't keeping up enough. And I felt
overwhelmed, because I want to help take care of his needs too, and
he obviously needs the house to be neater than it is. But if I have
3 kids messing up faster than I can clean up, and they need me to do
things with them instead of cleaning up, well...you're going to have
a messy house.
My kids attempted to make a pinata and left the mess behind. Dd made
up her own cake recipe on her own, wrote down all the ingredients,
stapled the two papers together, and made the cake. She did no
dishes and didn't clean up at all. She dropped a bag of cornflour
while she was getting stuff out of the cupboard. The bag ripped and
spilled on the floor and she just left it there. Dd played with
balloons, vinegar and baking soda on the diningroom floor. The three
year old has been into filling balloons with water (not full enough
to break) and asking people to tie them for him. There are balloons
all over the floor in several rooms of the house. No one cleaned up
their messes on the kitchen table from any food they got themselves
all day. Someone got him or her self a drink, spilled it on the
table, and it never got cleaned up. There are toys all over the
playroom floor and all over the bedrooms. The sink is stacked with
dishes. Now I have to go work on cleaning for several hours instead
of resting before bed, and that stresses me out. I guess it is good
that they cleaned the livingroom up without being told because they
wanted it to be their "house". But the rest of the house is going to
take some work--at least 3 or 4 hours. And what will really get me
stressed is if they say, "Mommy, can't you play a game with
me?" "Mommy, help me with my computer game". And I'm trying to
finally get some semblence of order to the house.
I was VERY frustrated today. But then I thought about dd's
experiment today. She put a balloon around the rim of the vinegar
and dumped some vinegar in it. Then she put baking soda in an old
shampoo bottle and put the balloon around the rim of the shampoo
bottle and it blew the balloon up. She figured that out all on her
own, with no experiment books or anyone putting any ideas in her
head. And I thought that it was so cool that she lived in a house
where she could make a mess.
And they DID clean the livingroom up, all on their own. They put all
their toys away, folded all the blankets, arranged the pillows on the
couch, AND put away all of the laundry I had started to fold.
But the house is still a mess and I'm still frustrated and tired and
stressed. I REALLy need to work on just getting more joy from
serving my family. It is not an easy thing for me to do.
I bought that new Hoover hard floor cleaner, and I'm going to go try
it out. Imagine not having to mop or scrub on hands and knees
anymore! I'm going to go make myself have fun with this. :)
Sheila
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> what about this? I've been clicking all over the place through thisunschooling
> list in the past few days heh heh my kids got a definite
> day TODAY! Watched movies and played puter games,and read. We girlscleaned
> exercised together, and Robby helped with the bread. Oh. They
> their rooms, too.Do you want your checkbook to be mismanaged? Then take care of it.
>
> Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about not
> making the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
> Should I quit doing the checkbook?
>
> The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I never
> want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
> our family, I am the bookkeeper, because my husband has short term
> memory loss and Severe Procrastinitis (the first, from a bad car
> crash w/head injuries, the second...LOL )
Do your kids want their rooms cleaned? Then they'll do it. If they
don't care, they won't. If you care that their rooms get cleaned but
they don't, then you should do it.
I don't make beds. I think it's a waste of time. For other people,
it's really important. If someone came to my house and asked me why
my beds weren't made, I'd say because I don't care enough about
having them made to do it.
I've got the concept down. I see the wisdom in it. I'm really,
really trying to make it work. But sometimes when the house looks
like it does right now, and I am facing a few hours of cleaning in
order to shape it up, I get frustrated.
Dh doesn't necessarily agree with me either. He kind of does, but a
messy house bothers him more than it bothers me. Today he came home
and said that if he has to clean the house when he gets home, don't
expect him to do anything else. He is in a grumpy mood because he has
a bachache and didn't sleep well last night, but it still made me
feel bad. I felt guilty that I wasn't keeping up enough. And I felt
overwhelmed, because I want to help take care of his needs too, and
he obviously needs the house to be neater than it is. But if I have
3 kids messing up faster than I can clean up, and they need me to do
things with them instead of cleaning up, well...you're going to have
a messy house.
My kids attempted to make a pinata and left the mess behind. Dd made
up her own cake recipe on her own, wrote down all the ingredients,
stapled the two papers together, and made the cake. She did no
dishes and didn't clean up at all. She dropped a bag of cornflour
while she was getting stuff out of the cupboard. The bag ripped and
spilled on the floor and she just left it there. Dd played with
balloons, vinegar and baking soda on the diningroom floor. The three
year old has been into filling balloons with water (not full enough
to break) and asking people to tie them for him. There are balloons
all over the floor in several rooms of the house. No one cleaned up
their messes on the kitchen table from any food they got themselves
all day. Someone got him or her self a drink, spilled it on the
table, and it never got cleaned up. There are toys all over the
playroom floor and all over the bedrooms. The sink is stacked with
dishes. Now I have to go work on cleaning for several hours instead
of resting before bed, and that stresses me out. I guess it is good
that they cleaned the livingroom up without being told because they
wanted it to be their "house". But the rest of the house is going to
take some work--at least 3 or 4 hours. And what will really get me
stressed is if they say, "Mommy, can't you play a game with
me?" "Mommy, help me with my computer game". And I'm trying to
finally get some semblence of order to the house.
I was VERY frustrated today. But then I thought about dd's
experiment today. She put a balloon around the rim of the vinegar
and dumped some vinegar in it. Then she put baking soda in an old
shampoo bottle and put the balloon around the rim of the shampoo
bottle and it blew the balloon up. She figured that out all on her
own, with no experiment books or anyone putting any ideas in her
head. And I thought that it was so cool that she lived in a house
where she could make a mess.
And they DID clean the livingroom up, all on their own. They put all
their toys away, folded all the blankets, arranged the pillows on the
couch, AND put away all of the laundry I had started to fold.
But the house is still a mess and I'm still frustrated and tired and
stressed. I REALLy need to work on just getting more joy from
serving my family. It is not an easy thing for me to do.
I bought that new Hoover hard floor cleaner, and I'm going to go try
it out. Imagine not having to mop or scrub on hands and knees
anymore! I'm going to go make myself have fun with this. :)
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/03 7:12:42 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<< Someone's website (sandra dodd?) has Calvin (of Calvin &
Hobbes)...well, it shows the poor kid sitting all bored at his school
desk, but there was no picture of him coming away from his comic book
reading with a twitch, or his eyeballs spinning out of his head from
watching so much TV. >>
It's an animation about going into a fantasy world.
It's on Marty's page (which is needing some work)
http://sandradodd.com/marty
and I didn't find any animations besides that one.
But comic books aren't school.
And television isn't school.
And using an anti-school animation which involves Calvin & Hobbes doesn't
mean I subscribe to a Calvin & Hobbe's religion.
<<
Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about not
making the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
Should I quit doing the checkbook? >>
Nobody is making you do that checkbook. You're doing it because the natural
consequences irritate you.
You could deal only in cash, or credit cards.
You could switch to a debit card and keep a running total on an envelope, and
check that against the account each month.
If your kids can't find their stuff, they'll find better ways to take care of
it. If they never return their friends' phone calls, their friends will stop
calling them (or maybe get grumpy and yell at them).
Children will learn and develop character because of what happens because of
what they do and don't do.
By the checkbook question, I'm guessing you're imagining that if parents
don't make kids do things, that kids will slowly grind to a halt. But that's
not how it is.
People say if unschoolers don't get up at a certain time they'll never be
able to get up to go to work if they get a job. That makes no sense.
Getting up at 6:30 every day for years doesn't make someone want to get up at
6:30 for the rest of their lives. It more likely will make them want to
sleep in. When Ninja Turtles was on at 7:00 a.m. or whenever, years ago,
Kirby got up every morning with his own alarm clock to tape it and watch it.
When he has to go to work at 11:30 or 9:30 or when he has worked the crazy
shifts at conventions, he sets an alarm for an hour before he has to be
there, and he takes a shower and he gets there.
Practice wouldn't help.
<<The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I never
want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
our family, I am the bookkeeper,>>
Do you have a kid who might be interested in helping you, and maybe taking it
over (or doing it sometimes)?
Sandra
<< Someone's website (sandra dodd?) has Calvin (of Calvin &
Hobbes)...well, it shows the poor kid sitting all bored at his school
desk, but there was no picture of him coming away from his comic book
reading with a twitch, or his eyeballs spinning out of his head from
watching so much TV. >>
It's an animation about going into a fantasy world.
It's on Marty's page (which is needing some work)
http://sandradodd.com/marty
and I didn't find any animations besides that one.
But comic books aren't school.
And television isn't school.
And using an anti-school animation which involves Calvin & Hobbes doesn't
mean I subscribe to a Calvin & Hobbe's religion.
<<
Okay. I've been clicking all over the place and reading about not
making the kids do things that aren't interesting to them. Cool.
Should I quit doing the checkbook? >>
Nobody is making you do that checkbook. You're doing it because the natural
consequences irritate you.
You could deal only in cash, or credit cards.
You could switch to a debit card and keep a running total on an envelope, and
check that against the account each month.
If your kids can't find their stuff, they'll find better ways to take care of
it. If they never return their friends' phone calls, their friends will stop
calling them (or maybe get grumpy and yell at them).
Children will learn and develop character because of what happens because of
what they do and don't do.
By the checkbook question, I'm guessing you're imagining that if parents
don't make kids do things, that kids will slowly grind to a halt. But that's
not how it is.
People say if unschoolers don't get up at a certain time they'll never be
able to get up to go to work if they get a job. That makes no sense.
Getting up at 6:30 every day for years doesn't make someone want to get up at
6:30 for the rest of their lives. It more likely will make them want to
sleep in. When Ninja Turtles was on at 7:00 a.m. or whenever, years ago,
Kirby got up every morning with his own alarm clock to tape it and watch it.
When he has to go to work at 11:30 or 9:30 or when he has worked the crazy
shifts at conventions, he sets an alarm for an hour before he has to be
there, and he takes a shower and he gets there.
Practice wouldn't help.
<<The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I never
want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
our family, I am the bookkeeper,>>
Do you have a kid who might be interested in helping you, and maybe taking it
over (or doing it sometimes)?
Sandra
Heidi <[email protected]>
Hi Deb
Is it really worth it to have kids unhappy about doing dishes, or
pray that they will, but more than happy, I'd like to see them be
good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
controlled. Now, my firm belief is, if they have these character
qualities, they will be happy. Since willingness to serve others (for
instance) is one of the things I want to see in my children, they get
to practice serving in our family. In order to keep the household
running, they each have chores. Each one of them does what chores I
assign...without complaining. Really, they do. Because I have trained
them to do so.
I would say that, none of those qualities listed above will come to
children naturally. Some of them will come by way of natural
consequences, and they'll adjust their behavior in order to avoid the
same mistake next time. Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
their father, period. (we being such paragons of moral uprightness!
LOL)
And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to be
obedient, and giving them chores that they DON'T WANT TO DO, my
children are happy.
blessings, Heidi
Is it really worth it to have kids unhappy about doing dishes, or
> dusting? Joyce asked that question I think. Are clean dishesmore
> important than a happy child? Really. In thirty years will yoube
> more pleased to remember a clean house or happy kids? In thirtyyears
> which will matter more?Actually, one of my goals isn't NECESSARILY that my kids be happy. I
>
> Deb L
pray that they will, but more than happy, I'd like to see them be
good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
controlled. Now, my firm belief is, if they have these character
qualities, they will be happy. Since willingness to serve others (for
instance) is one of the things I want to see in my children, they get
to practice serving in our family. In order to keep the household
running, they each have chores. Each one of them does what chores I
assign...without complaining. Really, they do. Because I have trained
them to do so.
I would say that, none of those qualities listed above will come to
children naturally. Some of them will come by way of natural
consequences, and they'll adjust their behavior in order to avoid the
same mistake next time. Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
their father, period. (we being such paragons of moral uprightness!
LOL)
And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to be
obedient, and giving them chores that they DON'T WANT TO DO, my
children are happy.
blessings, Heidi
[email protected]
-=-Since willingness to serve others (for
instance) is one of the things I want to see in my children, they get
to practice serving in our family.-=-
"Get to" or "have to"?
There's a profound difference, isn't there?
<< I'd like to see them be
good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
controlled. >>
Probably your definition of "morally upright" would be narrower than mine,
but my children have all the traits you have listed above, and they are
already happy. Happiness isn't something I expect them to have when they're
grown up, if they're good now.
<<Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
their father, period. >>
You believe that, and so you act accordingly.
But what if you met my children and saw them have all those traits you named?
Would you say "Well obviously, they got those things from their mother and
father making them do things"?
<<And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to be
obedient,....>>
We don't train our children to be obedient, but they don't ignore us. They
really care about what we feel about what they do. That transfers to other
relationships. Obedience doesn't transfer. (Or when it does, it can have
some bad effects. Some children are told to obey all adults. VERY bad
advice. Some are told to obey all priests and nuns. Not as many as USED to
be told that!)
Sandra
instance) is one of the things I want to see in my children, they get
to practice serving in our family.-=-
"Get to" or "have to"?
There's a profound difference, isn't there?
<< I'd like to see them be
good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
controlled. >>
Probably your definition of "morally upright" would be narrower than mine,
but my children have all the traits you have listed above, and they are
already happy. Happiness isn't something I expect them to have when they're
grown up, if they're good now.
<<Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
their father, period. >>
You believe that, and so you act accordingly.
But what if you met my children and saw them have all those traits you named?
Would you say "Well obviously, they got those things from their mother and
father making them do things"?
<<And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to be
obedient,....>>
We don't train our children to be obedient, but they don't ignore us. They
really care about what we feel about what they do. That transfers to other
relationships. Obedience doesn't transfer. (Or when it does, it can have
some bad effects. Some children are told to obey all adults. VERY bad
advice. Some are told to obey all priests and nuns. Not as many as USED to
be told that!)
Sandra
kayb85 <[email protected]>
> Actually, one of my goals isn't NECESSARILY that my kids be happy.I
> pray that they will, but more than happy, I'd like to see them be(for
> good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
> ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
> gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
> controlled. Now, my firm belief is, if they have these character
> qualities, they will be happy. Since willingness to serve others
> instance) is one of the things I want to see in my children, theyget
> to practice serving in our family. In order to keep the householdtrained
> running, they each have chores. Each one of them does what chores I
> assign...without complaining. Really, they do. Because I have
> them to do so.the
>
> I would say that, none of those qualities listed above will come to
> children naturally. Some of them will come by way of natural
> consequences, and they'll adjust their behavior in order to avoid
> same mistake next time. Some of it...it's gonna come from myselfand
> their father, period. (we being such paragons of moral uprightness!The qualities listed above don't come naturally to us as adults,
> LOL)
either, but no one threatens us with taking away cherished things or
not allowing us to come and go freely if we don't do them.
If someone is feeling mean inside of their hearts, but you won't
allow them to "be unkind", are they really learning how to be kind,
or are they learning how to put on a false face to mask their
feelings?
Is it really self control if they are only doing it because they
don't want to get punished or because they think their mom will love
them more if they do it? I think self control comes when one learns
how to truly control one's self. And you can't control yourself if
you have someone else controlling you.
Sheila
Deborah Lewis
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 05:36:15 -0000 "Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...>
writes:
***...but more than happy, I'd like to see them be
good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
controlled. ***
Are these qualities important enough to you that you model them to your
children? Are you respectful to them? Humble in their presence? Is
your heart full of gratitude toward them? Do you serve them, are you
giving, and patient with them and self controlled? Have you
demonstrated a good work ethic?
I'm asking because I think if a parent is frustrated or agitated or anal
about keeping house and requires other to help, that's not the best
demonstration of work ethic, serving others, or respect.
***Each one of them does what chores I
assign...without complaining. Really, they do. Because I have trained
them to do so. ***
I don't doubt this, I'm sure you have things running the way you like.
But there are others here, myself included who have not assigned chores
to children, and who have not *trained* them, and the children still
help. They help willingly, happily even.
***I would say that, none of those qualities listed above will come to
children naturally.***
This hasn't been my experience. My son has been very naturally
demonstrating all those things you mentioned for many years.
***Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
their father, period.***
I like to tell myself that Dylan is the person he is because his father
and I have modeled it for him. Maybe he would be this way no matter who
his parents were, but I believe he is kind because we have been kind to
him. I believe he's respectful because we show him respect. I
believe he's patient and humble and moral and giving and self controlled
because we have tried to be all these things with him, to give him a good
model. But even more than that I think he has all these qualities
because they are natural human qualities, present in every baby from the
start and only need love and nurturing to blossom.
My son is ten and he has several jobs. He feeds and plays with the
neighbors dog on the weekends when they are gone. He lets her in and out
of their house. He's very responsible about it and he's done it now for
over a year. He feeds another neighbor's fish when they're not home,
and they travel for their work so he's at their house at least every
other week for several days. Last year he was invited to the Green
Party convention in our state... a personal invitation from the
coordinating chairman. He was invited because he had collected
signatures for ballot initiatives in our area. He really wanted to go,
but by the time he heard about it he had already committed himself to
feeding the fish. There was no way to do both, because the fish needed
to be fed twice a day and the convention was far enough away that we
would have to stay overnight to attend the meetings. His father
offered to take over fish duty so he could go, but Dylan refused. He
said it was his responsibility and he wanted Gail to know she could count
on him. He was nine years old.
I have never required him to do chores, but he did dishes twice today
because I wasn't feeling well, and just now when I was coughing he
brought me some peppermint tea. I didn't ask him to do the dishes. I
didn't ask him to bring me tea, he just did it because he knew it would
help me. He thanked me for taking him to his karate class. So here
are demonstrations of several of the things you mention in a child who
has never been required to do chores, who has never been required to do
"school work", who has never been spanked or punished or threatened.
***And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to be
obedient, and giving them chores that they DON'T WANT TO DO, my
children are happy.***
I believe you have happy children. I'm sad that you think of children
as things that need to be trained and obedient. In *my* perfect world
of moral uprightness parents would respect their children as perfect
learning individuals and training and obedience would never be used in a
sentence about children.
My son's happiness is all important and I work every day to ensure it.
Someday he may be a parent and I hope I will have demonstrated how well
love and respect can nourish a family.
Deb L
writes:
***...but more than happy, I'd like to see them be
good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
controlled. ***
Are these qualities important enough to you that you model them to your
children? Are you respectful to them? Humble in their presence? Is
your heart full of gratitude toward them? Do you serve them, are you
giving, and patient with them and self controlled? Have you
demonstrated a good work ethic?
I'm asking because I think if a parent is frustrated or agitated or anal
about keeping house and requires other to help, that's not the best
demonstration of work ethic, serving others, or respect.
***Each one of them does what chores I
assign...without complaining. Really, they do. Because I have trained
them to do so. ***
I don't doubt this, I'm sure you have things running the way you like.
But there are others here, myself included who have not assigned chores
to children, and who have not *trained* them, and the children still
help. They help willingly, happily even.
***I would say that, none of those qualities listed above will come to
children naturally.***
This hasn't been my experience. My son has been very naturally
demonstrating all those things you mentioned for many years.
***Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
their father, period.***
I like to tell myself that Dylan is the person he is because his father
and I have modeled it for him. Maybe he would be this way no matter who
his parents were, but I believe he is kind because we have been kind to
him. I believe he's respectful because we show him respect. I
believe he's patient and humble and moral and giving and self controlled
because we have tried to be all these things with him, to give him a good
model. But even more than that I think he has all these qualities
because they are natural human qualities, present in every baby from the
start and only need love and nurturing to blossom.
My son is ten and he has several jobs. He feeds and plays with the
neighbors dog on the weekends when they are gone. He lets her in and out
of their house. He's very responsible about it and he's done it now for
over a year. He feeds another neighbor's fish when they're not home,
and they travel for their work so he's at their house at least every
other week for several days. Last year he was invited to the Green
Party convention in our state... a personal invitation from the
coordinating chairman. He was invited because he had collected
signatures for ballot initiatives in our area. He really wanted to go,
but by the time he heard about it he had already committed himself to
feeding the fish. There was no way to do both, because the fish needed
to be fed twice a day and the convention was far enough away that we
would have to stay overnight to attend the meetings. His father
offered to take over fish duty so he could go, but Dylan refused. He
said it was his responsibility and he wanted Gail to know she could count
on him. He was nine years old.
I have never required him to do chores, but he did dishes twice today
because I wasn't feeling well, and just now when I was coughing he
brought me some peppermint tea. I didn't ask him to do the dishes. I
didn't ask him to bring me tea, he just did it because he knew it would
help me. He thanked me for taking him to his karate class. So here
are demonstrations of several of the things you mention in a child who
has never been required to do chores, who has never been required to do
"school work", who has never been spanked or punished or threatened.
***And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to be
obedient, and giving them chores that they DON'T WANT TO DO, my
children are happy.***
I believe you have happy children. I'm sad that you think of children
as things that need to be trained and obedient. In *my* perfect world
of moral uprightness parents would respect their children as perfect
learning individuals and training and obedience would never be used in a
sentence about children.
My son's happiness is all important and I work every day to ensure it.
Someday he may be a parent and I hope I will have demonstrated how well
love and respect can nourish a family.
Deb L
Fetteroll
on 1/13/03 9:11 PM, Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...> at
bunsofaluminum60@... wrote:
You.
Someone else.
As Pam pointed out, when we're faced with something we don't want to do, we
can seize that opportunity to brainstorm other solutions. Quicken? Not only
does it balance your checkbook, but it can write out the checks for you :-)
(Can't stuff them and put the stamps on envelopes though ;-) Debit cards?
Credit cards with a low monthly credit limit? Maybe one that has a limit you
feel comfortable with and another for those times when you need that extra.
We can also realize that we're *choosing* to do the disliked thing because
we want to avoid the consequences of not doing it. We don't *have to*. It's
a choice.
Joyce
bunsofaluminum60@... wrote:
> You see my point? Sometimes life hands you things that you 1)don'tWho's making you do something you don't want to?
> like 2) aren't any good at and 3) find extremely stressing, boring,
> and futile...but you HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY.
You.
> Mind you, I don't believeWho'd be making the kids do something they don't want to?
> that children should have a steady diet of this kind of thing, but
> isn't there some value in giving the kids things to do, that they
> don't want to do? Doesn't it build character or something?
Someone else.
As Pam pointed out, when we're faced with something we don't want to do, we
can seize that opportunity to brainstorm other solutions. Quicken? Not only
does it balance your checkbook, but it can write out the checks for you :-)
(Can't stuff them and put the stamps on envelopes though ;-) Debit cards?
Credit cards with a low monthly credit limit? Maybe one that has a limit you
feel comfortable with and another for those times when you need that extra.
We can also realize that we're *choosing* to do the disliked thing because
we want to avoid the consequences of not doing it. We don't *have to*. It's
a choice.
Joyce
[email protected]
> bachacheWhat do conductors get after a particularly long piece?
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/03 11:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:
Let me know how you like it!
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I bought that new Hoover hard floor cleaner, and I'm going to go tryId this the Floor Mate with that annoying autralian guy on the TV commercial?
> it out. Imagine not having to mop or scrub on hands and knees
> anymore! I'm going to go make myself have fun with this. :)
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
Let me know how you like it!
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/2003 10:31:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
stephanie.elms@... writes:
It's that paradigm shift. Amazing, isn't it? <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stephanie.elms@... writes:
>>Why does this stuff make so much sense to me but has my dad shaking hishead?
It's that paradigm shift. Amazing, isn't it? <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 05:36 1/14/03 +0000, Heidi wrote:
thing. Can you let go of the idea that *you have trained them* to do
anything? Can you see it more that they have chosen to behave in a certain
way that made sense to them at the time (i.e., not behaving in the way that
you were attempting to "train" them to would have yielded unacceptable
consequences to them). They could have just as easily gone the other way,
as many children do, or they could have become passive-aggressive (let you
*think* they're doing what you say but going against you behind your
back). I really think it's important for us to remember that we have the
choice to behave in the most reasonable way to us at the time.
Because of their angry and violent reactions, my parents were very scary
and threatening to me when I was little. My best response to them at the
time was not to be honest with them; this was my way of protecting myself
when I was a little girl, and it was a reasonable choice to make at the
time, and although I felt badly about it as a little girl, I understand it
now. But, another kid might have toed the line under the same
circumstances; that would just have been their most reasonable reaction to
the set of circumstances. My reaction was the most sensible to me at the
time. I was afraid of my parents! Now, my parents may have thought that
they were "training me up" to be some ideal of theirs; I'm pretty sure that
my reaction was not their desired outcome. We had a lot of nasty scenes
when I was young because of my not being able to be trusted by them, but I
can see now that in my eyes, they were really the ones who could not be
trusted and I responded accordingly. I was not able to articulate that at
all or even understand it when I was little, and, of course, I bought into
their version of the whole thing. But, in retrospect I can see that my
choices were a reasonable response to the perceived threat they posed to me.
I think our relationships with our children require a lot more empathy and
thought. I really think we have to let go of the notion that we can push
our children to perform in some way that WE chose.
I really liked this T shirt I saw at a LLL conference when my son was very
little. It said, "You have to be what you want your children to
become." But now, I think it is important to realize that our children
will make their own best choices that make the most sense to them. Trying
to push them in a particular direction may not yield the kinds of results
we anticipate or desire.
I hope this makes sense.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>....Because I have trained them to do so. ...With all due respect, Heidi, I would ask you to consider this one
thing. Can you let go of the idea that *you have trained them* to do
anything? Can you see it more that they have chosen to behave in a certain
way that made sense to them at the time (i.e., not behaving in the way that
you were attempting to "train" them to would have yielded unacceptable
consequences to them). They could have just as easily gone the other way,
as many children do, or they could have become passive-aggressive (let you
*think* they're doing what you say but going against you behind your
back). I really think it's important for us to remember that we have the
choice to behave in the most reasonable way to us at the time.
Because of their angry and violent reactions, my parents were very scary
and threatening to me when I was little. My best response to them at the
time was not to be honest with them; this was my way of protecting myself
when I was a little girl, and it was a reasonable choice to make at the
time, and although I felt badly about it as a little girl, I understand it
now. But, another kid might have toed the line under the same
circumstances; that would just have been their most reasonable reaction to
the set of circumstances. My reaction was the most sensible to me at the
time. I was afraid of my parents! Now, my parents may have thought that
they were "training me up" to be some ideal of theirs; I'm pretty sure that
my reaction was not their desired outcome. We had a lot of nasty scenes
when I was young because of my not being able to be trusted by them, but I
can see now that in my eyes, they were really the ones who could not be
trusted and I responded accordingly. I was not able to articulate that at
all or even understand it when I was little, and, of course, I bought into
their version of the whole thing. But, in retrospect I can see that my
choices were a reasonable response to the perceived threat they posed to me.
I think our relationships with our children require a lot more empathy and
thought. I really think we have to let go of the notion that we can push
our children to perform in some way that WE chose.
I really liked this T shirt I saw at a LLL conference when my son was very
little. It said, "You have to be what you want your children to
become." But now, I think it is important to realize that our children
will make their own best choices that make the most sense to them. Trying
to push them in a particular direction may not yield the kinds of results
we anticipate or desire.
I hope this makes sense.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/2003 11:07:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
play with them. It's not that playing with them isn't more important than
cleaning the house. It's just that if you had HELP, you'd have more time to
play.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
> And what will really get meTo me, THAT'S the time to explain the need for them to help, SO that you can
> stressed is if they say, "Mommy, can't you play a game with
> me?" "Mommy, help me with my computer game". And I'm trying to
> finally get some semblence of order to the house.
>
play with them. It's not that playing with them isn't more important than
cleaning the house. It's just that if you had HELP, you'd have more time to
play.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Heidi
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
strange aversion to the idea of happiness in many Christian
circles. Happiness is often pitted against joy and joy is seen as
some kind of experience of living that is not happy, but willing to
be content in spite of negative circumstances. This has always
puzzled me.
Recently i realized that it is a method for keeping a person from
evaluating whether or not his/her life is indeed happy. A person
can always say, "Well, the goal wasn't to be happy, it was to be
joyful in spite of horrible or hard or dull circumstances. So I'll just
say I'm joyful."
But what is the point of an emotion that you don't experience?
And why is happiness something we wouldn't aim for?
I know.
It's because deep down we fear the experience of pleasure. We
wee pleasure as leading us into selfish, sinful behaviors. We
think that pleasure and selfishness go together.
Since willingness to serve others (for
here on this list. We, too, have chores that the kids have learned
to do as part of our family. Since there is no one rebelling
against the idea and we are late comers to a total unschooling
view, we've decided not to rock that boat at this time. But we also
realized last night that there is a danger is assigning kids to
"serve" each other.
They may learn how to fulfill their duties, but is that the same as
service? Yesterday my middle child saw me cleaning up the
kitchen (I didn't ask for help, I was just doing it while they played
on the X box). He got off the game he was playing and said, "Hey
mom. You're doing all the work. I've played all morning. Can I
help you?"
Now, THAT is service! and I stood there stunned. We've been at
this one week.
actions I've ever seen have been offered by two year olds. I
remember when my daughter was a newborn, my 2 yos got his
favorite toy truck (yes it was all metal) and dragged a chair to the
moses basket on the table. He dropped it into the basket with
her as a gift.
Let's see: kind, capable of serving others, gentle (okay the truck
WAS metal, but...), humble...
What usually happens with kids is that they are somewhat
ego-centered. What they really need is some loving guidance,
not the assumption that they are never going to be good until we
teach and require it of them. So when my 2 yos puts a big metal
truck in a newborn's bed, I can see immediately the good heart
behind the action. Then I can show him what she'd really like
from himback pats, strokes on her furry head, and a kiss on
the cheek.
My oldest is now 15. I've never required him to teach his younger
siblings or to play with them. Yet he chooses to do these things
every sinlge day. He teaches computer games to his brothers,
puts the 6yog in his lap and reads to her, talks to his next sister
in line late into the night after "bedtime" and plays chess with our
other son. And he's generous to a fault.
I have not taught or required any of these behaviors.
But we've lived them in front of him.
(I singled him out because he's the oldest... but I have examples
from all four other kids too).
Some of them will come by way of natural
crime to expect that children will or can all the time. Better to let
them come to the point we're atdesiring to do good because
good is good to do, not because good is required of you.
loving homes have happy kids. And I don't think chores that are
required equate disgruntled children.
What I now realize is that our kids are amazingly able to absorb
other people's expectations for them. And over time those
accumulate. So if we keep piling it on, keep taking advantage of
their good will and short memories, there will be a price to pay at
some time. It may not be during chores, but it will show itself.
Mark it down.
Julie B
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
>happy. I
> Actually, one of my goals isn't NECESSARILY that my kids be
> pray that they will, but more than happy, I'd like to see them beYou know Heidi, this is how I was taught to think. There is a
> good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a work
> ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
> gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
> controlled. Now, my firm belief is, if they have these character
> qualities, they will be happy.
strange aversion to the idea of happiness in many Christian
circles. Happiness is often pitted against joy and joy is seen as
some kind of experience of living that is not happy, but willing to
be content in spite of negative circumstances. This has always
puzzled me.
Recently i realized that it is a method for keeping a person from
evaluating whether or not his/her life is indeed happy. A person
can always say, "Well, the goal wasn't to be happy, it was to be
joyful in spite of horrible or hard or dull circumstances. So I'll just
say I'm joyful."
But what is the point of an emotion that you don't experience?
And why is happiness something we wouldn't aim for?
I know.
It's because deep down we fear the experience of pleasure. We
wee pleasure as leading us into selfish, sinful behaviors. We
think that pleasure and selfishness go together.
Since willingness to serve others (for
> instance) is one of the things I want to see in my children, theyget
> to practice serving in our family. In order to keep the householdchores I
> running, they each have chores. Each one of them does what
> assign...without complaining. Really, they do. Because I havetrained
> them to do so.Last night I shaed with my dh about the chores ideas explained
here on this list. We, too, have chores that the kids have learned
to do as part of our family. Since there is no one rebelling
against the idea and we are late comers to a total unschooling
view, we've decided not to rock that boat at this time. But we also
realized last night that there is a danger is assigning kids to
"serve" each other.
They may learn how to fulfill their duties, but is that the same as
service? Yesterday my middle child saw me cleaning up the
kitchen (I didn't ask for help, I was just doing it while they played
on the X box). He got off the game he was playing and said, "Hey
mom. You're doing all the work. I've played all morning. Can I
help you?"
Now, THAT is service! and I stood there stunned. We've been at
this one week.
>to
> I would say that, none of those qualities listed above will come
> children naturally.I staunchly disagree with this statement. Some of the most kind
actions I've ever seen have been offered by two year olds. I
remember when my daughter was a newborn, my 2 yos got his
favorite toy truck (yes it was all metal) and dragged a chair to the
moses basket on the table. He dropped it into the basket with
her as a gift.
Let's see: kind, capable of serving others, gentle (okay the truck
WAS metal, but...), humble...
What usually happens with kids is that they are somewhat
ego-centered. What they really need is some loving guidance,
not the assumption that they are never going to be good until we
teach and require it of them. So when my 2 yos puts a big metal
truck in a newborn's bed, I can see immediately the good heart
behind the action. Then I can show him what she'd really like
from himback pats, strokes on her furry head, and a kiss on
the cheek.
My oldest is now 15. I've never required him to teach his younger
siblings or to play with them. Yet he chooses to do these things
every sinlge day. He teaches computer games to his brothers,
puts the 6yog in his lap and reads to her, talks to his next sister
in line late into the night after "bedtime" and plays chess with our
other son. And he's generous to a fault.
I have not taught or required any of these behaviors.
But we've lived them in front of him.
(I singled him out because he's the oldest... but I have examples
from all four other kids too).
Some of them will come by way of natural
> consequences, and they'll adjust their behavior in order toavoid the
> same mistake next time. Some of it...it's gonna come frommyself and
> their father, period. (we being such paragons of moraluprightness!
> LOL)Good point. We don't even live up to our own ideals. I think it's a
crime to expect that children will or can all the time. Better to let
them come to the point we're atdesiring to do good because
good is good to do, not because good is required of you.
>be
> And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to
> obedient, and giving them chores that they DON'T WANT TODO, my
> children are happy.I'm not doubting that your kids are happy in their lives. Most
loving homes have happy kids. And I don't think chores that are
required equate disgruntled children.
What I now realize is that our kids are amazingly able to absorb
other people's expectations for them. And over time those
accumulate. So if we keep piling it on, keep taking advantage of
their good will and short memories, there will be a price to pay at
some time. It may not be during chores, but it will show itself.
Mark it down.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/2003 12:36:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
I > pray that they will, but more than happy, I'd like to see them be
When you're happy, it's SO much easier to BE kind and gentle and giving and
self-controlled, etc. I think you're looking at it bass ackwards.
Since willingness to serve others (for
know any other life. And it can KEEP you in a state of servitude. A child who
grows up FREE is not as likely to be forced into servitude (I'm thinking more
of women marrying controlling husbands here or people taking unfulfilling
jobs).
In order to keep the household
Because I have trained > them to do so.
And we're telling you ad nauseum that it's unnecessary to train children. If
you LIVE WITH them in a partnership, Kindness and Giving come naturally.
Some of them will come by way of natural
Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
THOSE are "natural consequences" of "training" children. Get comfortable with
it.
saying is that they could be SO much happier and kinder and gentler and more
giving and respectful and so on if you were to show the same to THEM.
Forget chores. Forget training. Forget obedience.
Giving TO children models giving. Making them give to YOU models TAKING.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> Actually, one of my goals isn't NECESSARILY that my kids be happy.Bummer. For you and the kids.
I > pray that they will, but more than happy, I'd like to see them be
> good. By that, I mean, morally upright, with something of a workHow 'bout: if they are HAPPY, they will have all these character qualities?
> ethic, kind, gentle, respectful, humble, with hearts full of
> gratitude, capable of serving others, giving, patient, self-
> controlled. Now, my firm belief is, if they have these character
> qualities, they will be happy.
When you're happy, it's SO much easier to BE kind and gentle and giving and
self-controlled, etc. I think you're looking at it bass ackwards.
Since willingness to serve others (for
> instance) is one of the things I want to see in my children, they getSlaves were "started early" too. It's easier to "accept" slavery if you never
> to practice serving in our family.
know any other life. And it can KEEP you in a state of servitude. A child who
grows up FREE is not as likely to be forced into servitude (I'm thinking more
of women marrying controlling husbands here or people taking unfulfilling
jobs).
In order to keep the household
> running, they each have chores. Each one of them does what chores IAnd what are their choices? What IF they complain?
> assign...without complaining. Really, they do.
Because I have trained > them to do so.
And we're telling you ad nauseum that it's unnecessary to train children. If
you LIVE WITH them in a partnership, Kindness and Giving come naturally.
> I would say that, none of those qualities listed above will come toOf course they do!
> children naturally.
Some of them will come by way of natural
> consequences, and they'll adjust their behavior in order to avoid theWhat is your idea of a "natural" consequence?
> same mistake next time.
Some of it...it's gonna come from myself and
> their father, period. (we being such paragons of moral uprightness!They'll learn how to avoid things and to lie, to blame and to control others.
> LOL)
THOSE are "natural consequences" of "training" children. Get comfortable with
it.
> And I would also say that, in the midst of our training them to beNo one will here will say they aren't. You know your children. What WE'RE
> obedient, and giving them chores that they DON'T WANT TO DO, my
> children are happy.
saying is that they could be SO much happier and kinder and gentler and more
giving and respectful and so on if you were to show the same to THEM.
Forget chores. Forget training. Forget obedience.
Giving TO children models giving. Making them give to YOU models TAKING.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi <[email protected]>
Hi Marji
was a situation at my best friend's church, where a man had gotten
his girlfriend pregnant and had made no steps toward marrying her.
This grieved my girlfriend's heart, partly because she loved the
woman who was PG and was sad for her, and partly because the man had
been homeschooled under a strict, structured, scheduled system. He
knew right from wrong; the man's parents were flabbergasted, the
church was hurting from all of this, and he continued in his stubborn
refusal to do the right thing. (By the Bible, marrying the woman you
bed IS the right thing.) I think a brother of his committed suicide,
too. There was probably some weird garbage going on in that family,
right? (Oh, he did end up marrying her, and has turned out to be a
fantastic husband and father)
Well, close friends of that family, with 9 kids I think, and
homeschooling with a similar method, and with a BEAUTIFUL classical
music ministry...one of their boys tried to strangle himself. I
wondered then...is it a "step on all signs of different thinking"
that comes with strict, scheduled, structured childhoods? Other
families in this little group of Principle Approach-ers have missed
the mark terribly, with lies and deception amongst the adults, and
symptoms of stress in the children.
2) THE UGLY ON THE OUTSIDE, BUT LOVELY INSIDE SCENARIO: Fast forward
to one of my dearest friends, a woman with three boys, who didn't
homeschool, but whose childrearing philosophy is fitting in with what
I've been reading here very well. "Let em be and love em." Her house
was ALWAYS trashed, her boys are confident and sure of themselves.
Into gaming and SCA, like Sandra's boys. I don't think their group is
actually SCA, though. They emphasize more the battling than the
chivalry. Hagerdaaz? Daagerhaz? something like that. They're grown
now, and each of those boys works just as much as they need to, to
fund their hobby. Still living at home, at 22 and 19, and the
youngest is 17 I think in his senior year. My friend divorced and
moved out, but the boys still live with their dad.
Aside from having minimal work ethic, these guys are very cool kids.
They're funny and enjoy each other's company, and none of them has
ever committed a crime, impregnated a girl (the oldest just now
started dating), gotten into a *real* fight...etc.
So, what you had to say does make sense. Controlling them outwardly
doesn't always lead to upstanding citizens or healthy people; leaving
them to their own devices doesn't always create monsters.
3) THE WONDERFUL ALL AROUND SCENARIO: Now, to my best friend. She is
a strict mother, one who pushes her kids to achieve. She, herself, is
an achiever, doing with excellence everything she sets out to do. Her
oldest daughter has won oratory awards, taken first place in every
4-H competition she ever entered, now married and managing a Curves
workout center and moving up in Mary Kay. She is happy, along with
being kind, gentle, capable of serving others, funny, self-confident,
patient, etc. She and her mom are good friends with a loving, open
relationship. When my friend gets too opinionated about how her
daughter is doing things, the daughter doesn't hesitate to tell her
to chill...ehem, now that the daughter is an adult with her own home
and husband. It wouldn't have happened while she was under her mom's
roof! My friend brooks no disrespect.
My friend's son is 18. He also has excelled, having both the marks of
success that "the system" has to offer (awards, leadership positions
in the community, etc) and the marks of an upright human being. When
I went to spend the afternoon with my friend, he came into the room
and told me I looked great. This, an 18 year old kid, complimenting
his mom's friend. He also compliments his mom, having said to her in
public "I'd rather spend time with you, anyway" when he couldn't get
ahold of a friend to hang with. I heard him say it, and so did half
the crowd at a church thingy. He has friends who make bad choices,
and he doesn't go along with them.
Then there's the 11 year old. So far, not a lot of outward
achievement award type activity, but what awards are available to a
younger child, she has earned. She also shines as a person, being a
good conversationalist, fun to be with, intelligent. Not long ago,
while my friend and I chatted on the phone, the child got going on
cleaning out the fridge...not because she was asked to. But she also
does do the things her mom asks or tells her to do.
Could the difference be, not the amount of controlling or the
expectations we place upon our children, but the relationships we
develop with them? I don't know the families in the first (ugly)
scenario I described, but I do know that the man who got his woman
pregnant and wouldn't marry her, has a lot of bitterness towards his
dad. Did the families in scenario 1 apply controlling methods without
developing a warm, sincere bond with their kids? My friend with the
trashed house and the cool kids...not a whole lot of "discipline" or
pushing going on there, but she loves them, and they love her. She
poured herself into them, since her husband didn't love her. And
their overall "coolness" shows it. Same with my best friend's family.
She is 100% into them, just like she is 100% into anything she does.
And they know it, and can grow well in the strong love she has for
them, even though she demands things of them and pushes them.
My folks didn't push me, didn't place hardly any expectations on me,
let me choose for the most part...and I went completely nuts at age
15, got into drugs and sex, dropped out of high school, and was angry
and bitter at them for years. Why? I think it's because they never
bothered to develop an open, trusting, loving relationship with me. I
think basically, underneath it, their love for me won out, because as
an adult, I'm confident and capable, and my mom and I get along fine
now. We enjoy each other. Same with my dad. And my sister and brother
and I are all friends. But it was shaky for a decade in there!
thinking aloud. thanks for your insightful reply
blessings, Heidi
> I think our relationships with our children require a lot moreempathy and
> thought. I really think we have to let go of the notion that wecan push
> our children to perform in some way that WE chose.1) THE LOVELY ON THE OUTSIDE, UGLY INSIDE SCENARIO: Recently there
>
was a situation at my best friend's church, where a man had gotten
his girlfriend pregnant and had made no steps toward marrying her.
This grieved my girlfriend's heart, partly because she loved the
woman who was PG and was sad for her, and partly because the man had
been homeschooled under a strict, structured, scheduled system. He
knew right from wrong; the man's parents were flabbergasted, the
church was hurting from all of this, and he continued in his stubborn
refusal to do the right thing. (By the Bible, marrying the woman you
bed IS the right thing.) I think a brother of his committed suicide,
too. There was probably some weird garbage going on in that family,
right? (Oh, he did end up marrying her, and has turned out to be a
fantastic husband and father)
Well, close friends of that family, with 9 kids I think, and
homeschooling with a similar method, and with a BEAUTIFUL classical
music ministry...one of their boys tried to strangle himself. I
wondered then...is it a "step on all signs of different thinking"
that comes with strict, scheduled, structured childhoods? Other
families in this little group of Principle Approach-ers have missed
the mark terribly, with lies and deception amongst the adults, and
symptoms of stress in the children.
2) THE UGLY ON THE OUTSIDE, BUT LOVELY INSIDE SCENARIO: Fast forward
to one of my dearest friends, a woman with three boys, who didn't
homeschool, but whose childrearing philosophy is fitting in with what
I've been reading here very well. "Let em be and love em." Her house
was ALWAYS trashed, her boys are confident and sure of themselves.
Into gaming and SCA, like Sandra's boys. I don't think their group is
actually SCA, though. They emphasize more the battling than the
chivalry. Hagerdaaz? Daagerhaz? something like that. They're grown
now, and each of those boys works just as much as they need to, to
fund their hobby. Still living at home, at 22 and 19, and the
youngest is 17 I think in his senior year. My friend divorced and
moved out, but the boys still live with their dad.
Aside from having minimal work ethic, these guys are very cool kids.
They're funny and enjoy each other's company, and none of them has
ever committed a crime, impregnated a girl (the oldest just now
started dating), gotten into a *real* fight...etc.
So, what you had to say does make sense. Controlling them outwardly
doesn't always lead to upstanding citizens or healthy people; leaving
them to their own devices doesn't always create monsters.
3) THE WONDERFUL ALL AROUND SCENARIO: Now, to my best friend. She is
a strict mother, one who pushes her kids to achieve. She, herself, is
an achiever, doing with excellence everything she sets out to do. Her
oldest daughter has won oratory awards, taken first place in every
4-H competition she ever entered, now married and managing a Curves
workout center and moving up in Mary Kay. She is happy, along with
being kind, gentle, capable of serving others, funny, self-confident,
patient, etc. She and her mom are good friends with a loving, open
relationship. When my friend gets too opinionated about how her
daughter is doing things, the daughter doesn't hesitate to tell her
to chill...ehem, now that the daughter is an adult with her own home
and husband. It wouldn't have happened while she was under her mom's
roof! My friend brooks no disrespect.
My friend's son is 18. He also has excelled, having both the marks of
success that "the system" has to offer (awards, leadership positions
in the community, etc) and the marks of an upright human being. When
I went to spend the afternoon with my friend, he came into the room
and told me I looked great. This, an 18 year old kid, complimenting
his mom's friend. He also compliments his mom, having said to her in
public "I'd rather spend time with you, anyway" when he couldn't get
ahold of a friend to hang with. I heard him say it, and so did half
the crowd at a church thingy. He has friends who make bad choices,
and he doesn't go along with them.
Then there's the 11 year old. So far, not a lot of outward
achievement award type activity, but what awards are available to a
younger child, she has earned. She also shines as a person, being a
good conversationalist, fun to be with, intelligent. Not long ago,
while my friend and I chatted on the phone, the child got going on
cleaning out the fridge...not because she was asked to. But she also
does do the things her mom asks or tells her to do.
Could the difference be, not the amount of controlling or the
expectations we place upon our children, but the relationships we
develop with them? I don't know the families in the first (ugly)
scenario I described, but I do know that the man who got his woman
pregnant and wouldn't marry her, has a lot of bitterness towards his
dad. Did the families in scenario 1 apply controlling methods without
developing a warm, sincere bond with their kids? My friend with the
trashed house and the cool kids...not a whole lot of "discipline" or
pushing going on there, but she loves them, and they love her. She
poured herself into them, since her husband didn't love her. And
their overall "coolness" shows it. Same with my best friend's family.
She is 100% into them, just like she is 100% into anything she does.
And they know it, and can grow well in the strong love she has for
them, even though she demands things of them and pushes them.
My folks didn't push me, didn't place hardly any expectations on me,
let me choose for the most part...and I went completely nuts at age
15, got into drugs and sex, dropped out of high school, and was angry
and bitter at them for years. Why? I think it's because they never
bothered to develop an open, trusting, loving relationship with me. I
think basically, underneath it, their love for me won out, because as
an adult, I'm confident and capable, and my mom and I get along fine
now. We enjoy each other. Same with my dad. And my sister and brother
and I are all friends. But it was shaky for a decade in there!
>I hope this makes sense.yeah. I hope my rambling hasn't bored you all to tears. Still
thinking aloud. thanks for your insightful reply
blessings, Heidi
>
> Marji
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi <[email protected]>
Hi again Deb
Dynomite with some of his Christmas money, and now mom's hooked! (a
computer puzzle/game)
When I ask them to clean their rooms, first off, they go to their
rooms. Then I go in with the one, and help pick up, let's say "all
the books off the floor!" once she's started with the books, I head
for the boy's room "dirty laundry pile, here!" and throw a few things
in the pile, to get HIM started. Then back to Katie's room "Okay, now
it's time to strip the bed!" or whatever. I help them both, but also
expect them to follow through independently. Abbie, 15, knows how to
do it, when I ask her to clean her room...because I did it with her
when she was little. And she cleans to her own standards (which is
pretty cluttered).
Heidi
> Are these qualities important enough to you that you model them toyour
> children? Are you respectful to them? Humble in their presence?Is
> your heart full of gratitude toward them? Do you serve them, areyou
> giving, and patient with them and self controlled? Have youYep. Other than the work ethic! LOL Robby made the mistake of buying
> demonstrated a good work ethic?
Dynomite with some of his Christmas money, and now mom's hooked! (a
computer puzzle/game)
When I ask them to clean their rooms, first off, they go to their
rooms. Then I go in with the one, and help pick up, let's say "all
the books off the floor!" once she's started with the books, I head
for the boy's room "dirty laundry pile, here!" and throw a few things
in the pile, to get HIM started. Then back to Katie's room "Okay, now
it's time to strip the bed!" or whatever. I help them both, but also
expect them to follow through independently. Abbie, 15, knows how to
do it, when I ask her to clean her room...because I did it with her
when she was little. And she cleans to her own standards (which is
pretty cluttered).
Heidi
Heidi <[email protected]>
Hi Julie! I've been gaining a lot from your discussion earlier this
month, about doubts. Anyway:
there is a danger is assigning kids to
stove top, for dinner. Robby is taking them to the table.
OR
Katie is struggling with something...let's say putting on her snow
boots, and I ask Abbie "Please serve Katie by helping her put those
on". That's pretty much it.
blessings, Heidi
p.s. Going to re-read this reply. There's good stuff in there, about
happiness and pleasure!
month, about doubts. Anyway:
there is a danger is assigning kids to
> "serve" each other.Here is how a "serving assignment" goes. I'm filling plates from the
stove top, for dinner. Robby is taking them to the table.
OR
Katie is struggling with something...let's say putting on her snow
boots, and I ask Abbie "Please serve Katie by helping her put those
on". That's pretty much it.
blessings, Heidi
p.s. Going to re-read this reply. There's good stuff in there, about
happiness and pleasure!
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Heidi
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
carrying plates and is required to do it anyway, he is no longer
serving. he is outwardly obeying and inwardly begrudging the
service he is offering.
being asked to do it. That's what I regret now. If I say, Hey
Johannah, please help Caitrin get her shoes on" and she says,
"Mom, I'm in the middle of a chapter, can't you do it?" What's the
next step? Do I then say, "You will be learning not to be selfish
and to serve others if you'll put that book down and help her tie
her shoes"? or do I say, "Okay. I'll get to them in a minute then."
Service opportunities are different than service requirements.
That's what I'm getting out of this discussion.
Julie B
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> Hi Julie! I've been gaining a lot from your discussion earlierthis
> month, about doubts. Anyway:from the
>
> there is a danger is assigning kids to
> > "serve" each other.
>
> Here is how a "serving assignment" goes. I'm filling plates
> stove top, for dinner. Robby is taking them to the table.Yep that happens here too. But if your son really doesn't feel like
carrying plates and is required to do it anyway, he is no longer
serving. he is outwardly obeying and inwardly begrudging the
service he is offering.
>snow
> OR
>
> Katie is struggling with something...let's say putting on her
> boots, and I ask Abbie "Please serve Katie by helping her putthose
> on". That's pretty much it.I do this too. And I have overridden my kids' refusal or irritation at
being asked to do it. That's what I regret now. If I say, Hey
Johannah, please help Caitrin get her shoes on" and she says,
"Mom, I'm in the middle of a chapter, can't you do it?" What's the
next step? Do I then say, "You will be learning not to be selfish
and to serve others if you'll put that book down and help her tie
her shoes"? or do I say, "Okay. I'll get to them in a minute then."
Service opportunities are different than service requirements.
That's what I'm getting out of this discussion.
Julie B
>about
> blessings, Heidi
>
> p.s. Going to re-read this reply. There's good stuff in there,
> happiness and pleasure!
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/2003 8:12:38 PM Central Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
as possible so it's always as right as it can be.
I only write checks for bills that come in the mail. I use my debit card
everywhere else. I download my transactions every day, so I know if
something might bounce before the bank knows. Every day when I get the mail,
I throw out all the junk and then sit right down at the computer and write
the checks and put them in the envelope.
It doesn't matter if I don't have the money at that point, because my banking
program (Quicken) will line it up just right anyway. Then I enter the checks
in the computer, stuff the envelope and write the date the bill is due on the
envelope where the stamp would go. Then I put all the bills in a SACRED
place on my desk. <g> (My desk is always piled up with mine and everyone
else's SHTUFF, except for this one little envelope sized area that is SACRED
I tell ya!)
So every day when I download the last night's transactions, I pick up the
envelopes and see if any need to be mailed that day. I put stamps on those.
A stamp in my mind is like a red flag! If it has a stamp, it MUST go in the
mailbox that day, or disaster might occur.
I used to be just like you. I would avoid the task until it became
overwhelming. But doing a little every day makes it manageable, and it also
gives me the security of knowing exactly what our money situation is at every
moment. That makes me feel really HAPPY and secure. I can get really
depressed over the bills if I feel out of control.
I suggest you start over completely. Look for a couple of days when it will
be likely that you can go without using the bank account at all (this helps
you not have to deal with straggling transactions that might bite you). Then
set up Quicken (or Money or whathaveyou) with an opening balance of what the
bank shows. Then, spend 2 months doing what I described (adapting it to your
situation, of course). At the end of two statement cycles, if you've
balanced every day online through your bank, it will be apparent what the $$
difference is between your old checkbook and the bank. Not that it will
matter, because you will be all balanced up! But I'm the curious sort and
would want to know what the difference is.
It's harder to get started when every dime is critical, because the cash flow
really needs to be halted for a while so you can be absolutely sure. It
costs a little money to have online access. I pay about $15 a month ($5.95
plus .50 for every dl over 10 in a month) to download every day, and they
wave the normal service charge because we have direct deposit of dh's
paychecks. But I could just go view them online and it would be much
cheaper. So, I understand if this seems impossible for some. But my peace
of mind is so worth it.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I neverFigure out what you hate about it and eliminate that. Computerize it as much
> want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once.
as possible so it's always as right as it can be.
I only write checks for bills that come in the mail. I use my debit card
everywhere else. I download my transactions every day, so I know if
something might bounce before the bank knows. Every day when I get the mail,
I throw out all the junk and then sit right down at the computer and write
the checks and put them in the envelope.
It doesn't matter if I don't have the money at that point, because my banking
program (Quicken) will line it up just right anyway. Then I enter the checks
in the computer, stuff the envelope and write the date the bill is due on the
envelope where the stamp would go. Then I put all the bills in a SACRED
place on my desk. <g> (My desk is always piled up with mine and everyone
else's SHTUFF, except for this one little envelope sized area that is SACRED
I tell ya!)
So every day when I download the last night's transactions, I pick up the
envelopes and see if any need to be mailed that day. I put stamps on those.
A stamp in my mind is like a red flag! If it has a stamp, it MUST go in the
mailbox that day, or disaster might occur.
I used to be just like you. I would avoid the task until it became
overwhelming. But doing a little every day makes it manageable, and it also
gives me the security of knowing exactly what our money situation is at every
moment. That makes me feel really HAPPY and secure. I can get really
depressed over the bills if I feel out of control.
I suggest you start over completely. Look for a couple of days when it will
be likely that you can go without using the bank account at all (this helps
you not have to deal with straggling transactions that might bite you). Then
set up Quicken (or Money or whathaveyou) with an opening balance of what the
bank shows. Then, spend 2 months doing what I described (adapting it to your
situation, of course). At the end of two statement cycles, if you've
balanced every day online through your bank, it will be apparent what the $$
difference is between your old checkbook and the bank. Not that it will
matter, because you will be all balanced up! But I'm the curious sort and
would want to know what the difference is.
It's harder to get started when every dime is critical, because the cash flow
really needs to be halted for a while so you can be absolutely sure. It
costs a little money to have online access. I pay about $15 a month ($5.95
plus .50 for every dl over 10 in a month) to download every day, and they
wave the normal service charge because we have direct deposit of dh's
paychecks. But I could just go view them online and it would be much
cheaper. So, I understand if this seems impossible for some. But my peace
of mind is so worth it.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Earthmomma67@a... wrote:
commercial though.
It is awesome!
Sheila
> In a message dated 1/13/03 11:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,sheran@p...
> writes:try
>
> > I bought that new Hoover hard floor cleaner, and I'm going to go
> > it out. Imagine not having to mop or scrub on hands and kneescommercial?
> > anymore! I'm going to go make myself have fun with this. :)
> >
> > Sheila
> >
> >
> >
>
> Id this the Floor Mate with that annoying autralian guy on the TV
> Let me know how you like it!Probably. It says on the box, "As seen on tv". I've never seen the
commercial though.
It is awesome!
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/2003 9:41:04 PM Central Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
quicken to get it to balance each month. It did, the bank was never wrong.
I've taken to just looking over the statement and going with that amount. It
saves a lot of time, we've never bounced a check and I'm completely not
stressed about it. Trying to balance it stressed me.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
> Should I quit doing the checkbookYou know, I would spend hours inputting all our checking account stuff into
quicken to get it to balance each month. It did, the bank was never wrong.
I've taken to just looking over the statement and going with that amount. It
saves a lot of time, we've never bounced a check and I'm completely not
stressed about it. Trying to balance it stressed me.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], ejcrewe@a...
wrote:
My dh uses the computer to pay bills now anyway and I rarely
write a check. We just look at our account online to see what
money we have available.
Julie B
wrote:
> In a message dated 1/13/2003 9:41:04 PM Central StandardTime,
> ddzimlew@j... writes:account stuff into
>
>
> > Should I quit doing the checkbook
>
> You know, I would spend hours inputting all our checking
> quicken to get it to balance each month. It did, the bank wasnever wrong.
> I've taken to just looking over the statement and going with thatamount. It
> saves a lot of time, we've never bounced a check and I'mcompletely not
> stressed about it. Trying to balance it stressed me.Same here. That's what bank computers are for, I say.
>
> Elizabeth
My dh uses the computer to pay bills now anyway and I rarely
write a check. We just look at our account online to see what
money we have available.
Julie B
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/03 6:12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
also hate doing the bills. Because of this, my checking account is never
balanced too, and I put off doing the bills until I am in a pinch. I don't
have anyone to tell me when to do them because my husband is a lot like me.
I do my best, and I usually feel so much better when I've sent out the bills
and have at least come close in balancing my checkbook. There's no one that
forces me to do it. I just know if I never do it, our electric and water
will be turned off.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
> The checking account BORES ME TO TEARS!!!!!!!!! I HATE it! I neverDo you know what? I really hate keeping track of my checking account and I
> want to do it, and never once have I balanced it. Not once. But in
> our family, I am the bookkeeper, because my husband has short term
> memory loss and Severe Procrastinitis (the first, from a bad car
> crash w/head injuries, the second...LOL )
>
also hate doing the bills. Because of this, my checking account is never
balanced too, and I put off doing the bills until I am in a pinch. I don't
have anyone to tell me when to do them because my husband is a lot like me.
I do my best, and I usually feel so much better when I've sent out the bills
and have at least come close in balancing my checkbook. There's no one that
forces me to do it. I just know if I never do it, our electric and water
will be turned off.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/2003 2:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HappyMato2@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HappyMato2@... writes:
> . I just know if I never do it, our electric and waterNatural consequence.
> will be turned off.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/03 6:43:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, genant2@...
writes:
for bed and are in bed between 8:00 and 9:00. I have let my daughter and son
stay up later because they wanted to several times, but the next day is
usually a disaster. They are 3 and 4 years old and don't seem to understand
or care that when they stay up late at night it makes them feel terrible the
next day. I have decided to wait until they are little older for them to
decide when to go to bed.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> My children are not always doing what they enjoy. They clean their roomDoes this also have to do with the age of the child? My children get ready
> because they want to find something. They don't enjoy it. And they aren't
> doing it because I am making them, they do it for a reason all their own.
> My
> son reads the gaming book not because he totally enjoys it but because he
> needs the information inside to go further with the game. Unschooling is
> about making your own choices not being told what to do and when and how.
for bed and are in bed between 8:00 and 9:00. I have let my daughter and son
stay up later because they wanted to several times, but the next day is
usually a disaster. They are 3 and 4 years old and don't seem to understand
or care that when they stay up late at night it makes them feel terrible the
next day. I have decided to wait until they are little older for them to
decide when to go to bed.
Patti
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]