[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/03 9:12:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> . I don't see why
> there needs to be restriction placed on the discussion of abortion, as long
>
> as everyone understands that there will never be any united agreement on
> the
> issue.
>
> Teresa
>
>
>
Because when people tell others that having an abortion it is the same as
murdering their child, there CAN't be peaceful, calm discussion.

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/03 9:25:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> Because when people tell others that having an abortion it is the same as
> murdering their child, there CAN't be peaceful, calm discussion

Yeah, if thats the case (and it obviously what with the post you are
referring to) I do agree.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:10:32 EST grlynbl@... writes:
> Whether folks believe that person comes into existence at conception
> or at some magical moment during pregnancy, there are two (or three,
> including the father) peoples rights to consider. The conflict will
always be
> which of those peoples rights are more important.

I will not even touch the abortion issue. But on the issue of rights,
nobodies rights are more important than anothers. Your rights stop where
someone elses start. And people often confuse what is allowed by law with
what they believe their rights are. Rights, put simply, involve not
injuring anothers person or property.
Just my .02
Wende

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kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], love-it-here@j... wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:10:32 EST grlynbl@a... writes:
> > Whether folks believe that person comes into existence at
conception
> > or at some magical moment during pregnancy, there are two (or
three,
> > including the father) peoples rights to consider. The conflict
will
> always be
> > which of those peoples rights are more important.
>
> I will not even touch the abortion issue. But on the issue of
rights,
> nobodies rights are more important than anothers. Your rights stop
where
> someone elses start. And people often confuse what is allowed by
law with
> what they believe their rights are. Rights, put simply, involve not
> injuring anothers person or property.
> Just my .02
> Wende

I agree with you about what rights are. I know I've heard people
mention circumcision on this list. I know I've heard people mention
spanking on this list. I've gone from a parents-have-the right-to-
spank-and-how-dare-you-say-otherwise to a anti-spanking position in
the last few years.

But if I say that I support abortion, then I am inconsistent. I have
heard people support abortion because, "No one has the right to
invade my body against my will". But that doesn't sound like a very
unschooling attitude. What would we say if someone on the list
said, "No one has the right to make me get out of bed and make me get
them something to eat". There is a child involved and the humane
thing to do is to love that child no matter what emotional problems
we have that are keeping us in bed or keeping us from wanting to
allow the child to live inside of us.

I guess the problem is where we think the "fetus" becomes a person.
I tend to think it's when egg meets sperm, but that's something we
could argue about forever I guess. But I think we could all agree
that there is a point in pregnancy where the fetus becomes a person,
whether we believe it is at conception or at viability. And
viability age is becoming earlier and earlier thanks to modern
technology. So I would think that a partial birth, mid or late term
abortion when the child could potentially survive outside of the womb
should be pretty much agreed upon.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/03 1:52:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

>
> But if I say that I support abortion, then I am inconsistent. I have
> heard people support abortion because, "No one has the right to
> invade my body against my will".

Anti-Choice people seem to mention this frequently. Just becaseu one believe
in CHOICE, does not mean that one is going to run out and get an abortion
with out thought. It doesn't mean they even ENCOURAGE abortion. They may even
think that abortion is bad or wrong. but that doesn't mean they are
PRO-abortion. Just Pro-CHOICE.
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/03 1:52:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> ". There is a child involved

And here is what I believe to be the reason the debate won't end.
I and many others don't believe there IS a child involved.
ALSO
Just because one is Pro-choice, does not mean they are Pro-abortion. and I
don't think the term "Pro-life" to mean Anti-Abortion.

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Earthmomma67@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/13/03 1:52:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sheran@p...
> writes:
>
> >
> > But if I say that I support abortion, then I am inconsistent. I
have
> > heard people support abortion because, "No one has the right to
> > invade my body against my will".
>
> Anti-Choice people seem to mention this frequently. Just becaseu
one believe
> in CHOICE, does not mean that one is going to run out and get an
abortion
> with out thought. It doesn't mean they even ENCOURAGE abortion.
They may even
> think that abortion is bad or wrong. but that doesn't mean they are
> PRO-abortion. Just Pro-CHOICE.


Ok, but now you're getting into a political discussion of whether
abortion should be legal or not. I was simply saying that I think
that abortion is inconsistent with an unschooling philosophy.

The reason I even said anything about abortion at all is because
someone said that they wouldn't tell their kids not to have sex with
someone whose baby they wouldn't want to have--that's what birth
control and maybe even abortion are for. I replied with saying that
abortion doesn't fit with unschooling because it doesn't take into
account the needs of the child who was conceived.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/03 2:51:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> I was simply saying that I think
> that abortion is inconsistent with an unschooling philosophy.
>

Yes, forcing an abortion in inconsistant with an unschooling lifestyle.

> I replied with saying that
> abortion doesn't fit with unschooling because it doesn't take into
> account the needs of the child who was conceived

See? you are operating from the viewpoint that there is a child involved. If
you take that viewpoint away, how does it have anything to do with
unschooling?
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

> See? you are operating from the viewpoint that there is a child
involved. If
> you take that viewpoint away, how does it have anything to do with
> unschooling?

Yep, I guess that's where the difference of opinion is. If there is
a child involved, it has everything to do with unschooling,
children's rights, and human compassion for a helpless child. If
there isn't a child involved, it isn't as much of an unschooling
issue, except that we wouldn't mind telling our kids that it's ok to
have sex and then have an abortion if they get pregnant.

I guess I just can't get past my belief that there *is* a child
involved and keep forgetting that some people don't think there is.
In my mind, I keep comparing it to how years ago people felt that
newborns didn't feel pain, so they felt no need to anesthetize them
for circumcisions or other surgeries.

Sheila