Alan & Brenda Leonard

> Alot of people kids do chores.....

Yep. But then again, a lot of people's kids go to school, too. I never
connected those ideas until I came here, but if I'm going to totally rethink
the way I raise my child, then chores plays into that, right?

> Chores are a way and fact of life for many people. If you personally chose
> not to have you children do their chores or responsibilty..then that is your
> choice.

I think that you are mistaken to equate chores and responsibility. If
anything, I have come to believe that they are mutually exclusive.

If you want your children to take responsiblity for cleaning the house in
which they live, then *don't* give them tasks and lists of things they must
do. Help them to see that just as you do work around the house as part of
the family, so must they. They, like you, should be able to look around and
see what needs doing. And do it.

Ask them for help when you're doing things. Ask them to do things that you
can't get to. Mention things that are getting to the point of needing
cleaning.

> What will happen to your chldren if they don't?

I believe that my son will grow into a responsible man who can see things
that need doing, both at home and in the world, and realize that he is
someone who can do them.

He's already starting to do that. I'm proud of him.

brenda

The Robbins' Nest

<<<<<<<<<If you want your children to take responsiblity for cleaning the house in
which they live, then *don't* give them tasks and lists of things they must
do. Help them to see that just as you do work around the house as part of
the family, so must they. They, like you, should be able to look around and
see what needs doing. And do it.

Ask them for help when you're doing things. Ask them to do things that you
can't get to. Mention things that are getting to the point of needing
cleaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


This paragraph reminded me of something that can really get on my nerves. When I used to work in a busy hospital ER, (I am an xray tech), you had to be quick, efficient, sometimes very creative, and work under pressure with many other people.

My biggest complaint with some of the people I worked with is that they had no idea how to work well with others. A problem with seeing what needed done, what the other person(tech) was doing, and what they could do to contribute to get the job done. Examples: If I am positioning the patient for a film, the other person should be setting the equipment for the exposure. If I am visiting with the patient, getting a history or whatever, the other person should be doing the paperwork. It was a delicate give and take kind of working environment. We usually tried to take turns positioning patients and doing the paperwork so one person didn't feel like they were stuck doing the same thing all day.

There were people with whom I worked well with but there was always the 2 or 3 people that seemed lost most days. (I wasn't the only one noticing this....I work well with others, ....really). We would end up tripping over each other, not getting the work done because I thought he/she did it or vice versa, they needed to be reminded of what was still left to do, etc...... As I am typing this I am starting to think that maybe they just didn't give a shit. If they had a passion for the job, as I did, maybe they would CARE about efficiency, good patient care, and helping the doctor diagnose patients. When you have a physician waiting and bitching about, "Where are my x-rays!??!!" because the patient had a neck injury or chest pain, etc..., you really need to get the job done, well, the first time (no repeating films).

I guess my point is that I want my kids to have that sense of how to contribute to a situation. I think it is an important trait/skill to have for anyone in any profession or relationship. I want them to be able to look around and see what needs to be done, and (want to) do it. I am not as much talking about housework and picking up after themselves now (though I am pretty anal about cleaning but I am really working on that), but for when they are older. Whether it's a job or a spouse or whatever.



<<<<<<<<<<<<> What will happen to your chldren if they don't?

I believe that my son will grow into a responsible man who can see things
that need doing, both at home and in the world, and realize that he is
someone who can do them.

He's already starting to do that. I'm proud of him.

brenda>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



I think my kids have a good grasp of this concept too. I just need to accept the fact that they do not care if there is cat hair on the furniture, or those little teeny, tiny pieces of paper all over the living room floor, or that they forgot to flush the toilet and change the toilet paper roll for the next person when they used it all, or any of the many, many things that bother ME.

Kimber




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 11:34:01 AM, snibbor@... writes:

<< We would end up tripping over each other, not getting the work done
because I thought he/she did it or vice versa, they needed to be reminded of
what was still left to do, etc...... As I am typing this I am starting to
think that maybe they just didn't give a shit. >>

Maybe they just don't have whatever intelligence/skill it takes. Maybe it
was spatial reasoning. They couldn't figure out how to gracefully interact
in a small space. Maybe it was lack of interpersonal skill. It AMAZES me
when someone can't read someone else's frustration or need or anxiety when
they're standing two feet from them.

Sandra

The Robbins' Nest

<<<<<Maybe they just don't have whatever intelligence/skill it takes. Maybe it
was spatial reasoning. They couldn't figure out how to gracefully interact
in a small space. Maybe it was lack of interpersonal skill. It AMAZES me
when someone can't read someone else's frustration or need or anxiety when
they're standing two feet from them.

Sandra

>>>>>>>>>>

If so, is this something you can help your children understand ('teach' them?) or do you think it is an inborn personality trait?


Kimber



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 12:17:44 PM, snibbor@... writes:

<< If so, is this something you can help your children understand ('teach'
them?) or do you think it is an inborn personality trait? >>

Depends, I think. If I had a tone-deaf child (which I don't, so I'm using a
made-up example), I wouldn't encourage him toward music careers. I wouldn't
keep pushing vocal music on him, either, or tease him if he couldn't tune a
string instrument. I would just tune it for him.

So if someone has a child without great social skills, maybe helping them
find situations in which they're still really successful would be good, and
not to encourage them to become psychologists or nurses. (Neither would I
say "SHEESH, make sure you never get a job that involves any empathy!")

Kirby needs not to be a banker or a loan officer, I think. But I don't need
to tell him that.

Some families press all their children toward business or all toward medicine
regardless of their talents or interests. One of my good friends (the
mathematical model, actually) started off to study medicine and found out
fairly early on that she couldn't stand to see the living insides of
anything. Good to know! It doesn't come up naturally in most walks of life.


There are millions of things in the world, and we can help our children find
the thousands they find intesting, narrowing down to the dozens they might
want to pursue longterm.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 1:33:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
snibbor@... writes:

> My biggest complaint with some of the people I worked with is that they had
> no idea how to work well with others. A problem with seeing what needed
> done, what the other person(tech) was doing, and what they could do to
> contribute to get the job done.

I think that happens in all areas. There are some people who need to be told
what to do or they just stand there waiting. Some people just pitch in and
see what needs to be done. I used to say we all work together and it gets
done quicker then we can all take a break. Never really associated it with
how they were raised. LOL. Food for thought.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Selvage

I am still trying to understand how to keep the house clean using the
methods you have been talking about and have some questions. I have tried
over the last several days (since this thread) to not make the kids do
chores, but to ask for their assistance at times. I have done the things,
which up until last week were their chores. They haven't really noticed. I
have asked for help at times, and sometimes received it. Sometimes they have
complained that they didn't want to, etc. and I left it at that.

My children are 13 and 15(tomorrow). I have always been what people would
consider lax about chores, but in the last year or so have tried to give
them more responsiblity. It has definitely all been met with whining and
complaining, and the only real way to get them to do the stuff was for me to
continually remind them. So, the house has definitely been more peaceful
w/o asking them to do things like dishes and take out the trash, but things
are also not getting done. I asked my daughter to run the dishwasher while
I was gone yesterday, and she said she would, but she didn't. How do I
approach this with her? I have considered sitting them down and telling
them about my new approach, but am afraid that they will use that to decide
not to help at all. I cannot do it all myself (physically), and though I
think they know that, I am not sure that will matter in the new found
freedom.

To throw a wrench in the whole thing, my husband is not currently working,
and is home all the time, he has always been one to just leave all of his
mess for me to clean up (though I am a lousy housekeeper and don't do it
well). Often, if I ask him to do something, he will simply refuse, say it
is not his job, etc. So I expect to get that same behavior from the
children. Any ideas?

thank you in advance,
erin in nd
-----



> I think that you are mistaken to equate chores and responsibility. If
> anything, I have come to believe that they are mutually exclusive.
>
> If you want your children to take responsiblity for cleaning the house in
> which they live, then *don't* give them tasks and lists of things they
must
> do. Help them to see that just as you do work around the house as part of
> the family, so must they. They, like you, should be able to look around
and
> see what needs doing. And do it.
>
> Ask them for help when you're doing things. Ask them to do things that
you
> can't get to. Mention things that are getting to the point of needing
> cleaning.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 5:18:12 PM, jselvage@... writes:

<< So, the house has definitely been more peaceful
w/o asking them to do things like dishes and take out the trash, but things
are also not getting done. >>

It's like deschooling. It takes time.

The first thing kids do when they go from school to unschooling is as much
NOTHING as they possibly can, and eventually that turns to something.

It will take the same firebreak of nothingness to get from chores to normal
human behavior.

<< she said she would, but she didn't. How do I
approach this with her? I have considered sitting them down and telling
them about my new approach, but am afraid that they will use that to decide
not to help at all. >>

Would you switch to unschooling without telling the kids you were?

I think you should talk to them, and ask them if they think it's possible to
switch to a different kind of system altogether.

But as with deschooling, if you think it's going to end up looking just like
school, you'll be disappointed and frustrated.

Your expectations of housework have to change. If your priority is your
kids' freedom and happiness, they'll gain more of that. If your priority is
the house looking as it has looked with chores, and that's the big important
thing, then slacking on requiring chores probably won't work for you.

<< Often, if I ask him to do something, he will simply refuse, say it
is not his job, etc. So I expect to get that same behavior from the
children. Any ideas?>>

Can you ask him to split the unemployment experience with you? Is North
Dakota a community property state? Maybe you could tell him if he doesn't
want to do half your job while he's unemployed so you can be unemployed too,
he should get a job! (That's potentially very tacky, but might have a grain
of merit.)

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2003 7:18:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jselvage@... writes:
> I am still trying to understand how to keep the house clean using the
> methods you have been talking about and have some questions. I have tried
> over the last several days (since this thread) to not make the kids do
> chores, but to ask for their assistance at times. I have done the things,
> which up until last week were their chores. They haven't really noticed.
> I
> have asked for help at times, and sometimes received it. Sometimes they
> have
> complained that they didn't want to, etc. and I left it at that.


It won't happen overnight, Erin. A week is a flash in the pan. Just like
deschooling, this'll take some time. They need to realize that this isn't a
"test". It's REAL. And it's forever. Once they're SURE you're serious, THEN
you'll see a change.

> I have considered sitting them down and telling
> them about my new approach, but am afraid that they will use that to decide
> not to help at all. I cannot do it all myself (physically), and though I
> think they know that, I am not sure that will matter in the new found
> freedom.


It would probably be good to tell everyone. Tell them that you want them to
help, but you want them to WANT to help. Tell them it's NOT a test. They WILL
have the option of not helping at all. It'll be tough for a while. I PROMISE!
<G> But it'll be worth it in the long run. Do they understand that what they
ask YOU to do is also optional as well? (NOT as a threat. Just a fact.)

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Selvage

Thanks Sandra, lots of food for thought! I guess I will talk to the kids
and tell them about this discussion on chores and see where it goes. It is
not like the house was ever in great shape anyway, just wanting to get the
basics done.

I am not sure if I can really approach the unemployment thing with my
husband. He quit his job because we were planning to move, and then the
mission that we were with formerly asked us to return to Haiti( I was afraid
to put this part in here, and I have seen you don't have a great view of
Christianity, but this is who we are, I am just sorry that you did not have
a good experience with conservative Chrisitians growing up, it should not be
that way!), so we have started raising support from here and have not moved
yet. We live in a really tiny farming town, and bascially any work that can
be done in the winter is already taken. We are probably going to end up
moving next month to a larger place so he can find work. My husband has
been having some medical issues too, so it has been good to have time to
schedule doctor appointments, etc. But that still gives him no excuse for
his attitudes about picking up after himself. You can probably figure this
out, but he grew up in a home where all his mom did was yell at him to do
everything!

many blessings,
erin
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] chores, again


>
> In a message dated 1/12/03 5:18:12 PM, jselvage@... writes:
>
> << So, the house has definitely been more peaceful
> w/o asking them to do things like dishes and take out the trash, but
things
> are also not getting done. >>
>
> It's like deschooling. It takes time.
>
> The first thing kids do when they go from school to unschooling is as much
> NOTHING as they possibly can, and eventually that turns to something.
>
> It will take the same firebreak of nothingness to get from chores to
normal
> human behavior.
>
> << she said she would, but she didn't. How do I
> approach this with her? I have considered sitting them down and telling
> them about my new approach, but am afraid that they will use that to
decide
> not to help at all. >>
>
> Would you switch to unschooling without telling the kids you were?
>
> I think you should talk to them, and ask them if they think it's possible
to
> switch to a different kind of system altogether.
>
> But as with deschooling, if you think it's going to end up looking just
like
> school, you'll be disappointed and frustrated.
>
> Your expectations of housework have to change. If your priority is your
> kids' freedom and happiness, they'll gain more of that. If your priority
is
> the house looking as it has looked with chores, and that's the big
important
> thing, then slacking on requiring chores probably won't work for you.
>
> << Often, if I ask him to do something, he will simply refuse, say it
> is not his job, etc. So I expect to get that same behavior from the
> children. Any ideas?>>
>
> Can you ask him to split the unemployment experience with you? Is North
> Dakota a community property state? Maybe you could tell him if he doesn't
> want to do half your job while he's unemployed so you can be unemployed
too,
> he should get a job! (That's potentially very tacky, but might have a
grain
> of merit.)
>
> Sandra
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Jim Selvage

Kelly,

Thanks, that is really helpful and I will do it! They are going to love
this! (They really liked the unschooling too, we just took that jump about
a month ago. My son (15) did nothing but video games, read, computer, and
TV until yesterday. Yesterday afternoon, he was designing web comics, all
day! And today since we have been home from church. I am excited, because
I have been wishing he would do that for a while, but he never wanted to
take the time! I think there is a lot of learning going on there! My
daughter immediately took off doing crafts and things she had been wanting
to do, but now is on the TV kick. Of course, all I have done is read email,
lol!)

many blessings,
erin
> >> It won't happen overnight, Erin. A week is a flash in the pan. Just
like
> deschooling, this'll take some time. They need to realize that this isn't
a
> "test". It's REAL. And it's forever. Once they're SURE you're serious,
THEN
> you'll see a change.
>
> > I have considered sitting them down and telling
> > them about my new approach, but am afraid that they will use that to
decide
> > not to help at all. I cannot do it all myself (physically), and though
I
> > think they know that, I am not sure that will matter in the new found
> > freedom.
>
>
> It would probably be good to tell everyone. Tell them that you want them
to
> help, but you want them to WANT to help. Tell them it's NOT a test. They
WILL
> have the option of not helping at all. It'll be tough for a while. I
PROMISE!
> <G> But it'll be worth it in the long run. Do they understand that what
they
> ask YOU to do is also optional as well? (NOT as a threat. Just a fact.)
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Liza Sabater

On Sunday, Jan 12, 2003, at 19:16 America/New_York, Jim Selvage wrote:

> I am still trying to understand how to keep the house clean using the
> methods you have been talking about and have some questions. 


Just change your definition of clean for the whole house. Really.

Then get one room or corner of the house all to yourself. Make it as
clean as you like. Make it a room of your own.

When the 'chaos' around you gets too much to bear, go to your room.
Reserve the right to allow people into this area while you are in it.
If they use it, request they maintain it as they found it.

I think for a lot of women the problem does not lie in the house being
dirty. It lies on the house not feeling like their own; as if the space
has been invaded by aliens. Well, go build thee a sanctuary and let
every one who enters know they have to revere the goddess.

Liza





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 1/12/03 1:27 PM, The Robbins' Nest at snibbor@... wrote:

> A problem with seeing what needed done, what the other person(tech) was doing,
> and what they could do to contribute to get the job done.

It's probably both personality and skill. And perhaps not being in a job
they love.

In the rare times when I've been in a situation where women are all pitching
in to do something like getting a meal together or cleaning up, I feel like
a fish out of water. I obviously know how to cook and how to clean up ;-)
but I can't look at the whole situation and identify what needs done. It's
just a mass of confusion for me.

So I guess I'd look at it as some people need some extra help figuring out
what the pieces are that make up the whole. Hmm. It might be because I'm a
linear thinker. I need one thing and then the next and then the next. If all
the things are happening at the same time, I can't figure out what is
missing. In a way I'm kind of waiting for the action to stop so I can do
whatever my part is. Not really waiting, but mentally expecting certain
clues to trigger me that it's time to do something. But those clues never
come.

I suspect that even if someone rotated me through all the things that needed
to be done simultaneously, I'd still have a problem realizing that I needed
to do something. Because the clue -- action has stopped so the next thing
needs done -- isn't there.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/12/03 9:17 PM, Jim Selvage at jselvage@... wrote:

> and I have seen you don't have a great view of
> Christianity, but this is who we are, I am just sorry that you did not have
> a good experience with conservative Chrisitians growing up, it should not be
> that way!

Fundamentalist Christianity gets mentioned here more often that it should
because it affects the social and legal atmosphere of homeschooling. (That
doesn't account for every mention, but does account for a good many that
you'll be faced with here.)

There are many families in some very conservative fundamentalist Christian
sectors that are strongly encouraged, if not made, to homeschool. They make
up a significant portion of homeschoolers in general. And those who are
encouraging this movement are very politically active, trying to affect the
legal atmosphere for all homeschoolers.

These Christians don't use a term that separates them from the less
Reconstructionist-leaning of the fundamentalists. So there isn't an easy way
to identify them to people who've never experienced the hold this particular
Christian thought has on good portion of HSers. It almost always come across
as Christian bashing.

In fact they call themselves Christian. Perhaps you would be appalled by the
huge blow ups we had on the AOL homeschooling boards over the expression of
the opinion: "Well, they aren't a true Christian." But being appalled or
firmly believing that they poorly represent Christianity doesn't make the
movement any less real or any less politically powerful.

You can read the tip of the iceberg at More About HSLDA
(http://folchslda.homestead.com/MoreInfo.html).

Joyce