Heidi <[email protected]>

Hello

My name is Heidi, mother of four, homeschooling three (oldest is
grown up and lives in another state). Idaho is our home, out in the
country.

I just surfed in, in a manner of speaking, when searching for info on
unschooling. As near as I can ascertain, my style of homeschooling is
closer to "unschooling" than anything else.

We never have used just one curriculum, ranging from Principle
Approach to KONOS to Robinson Method, utilizing Saxon Math, the
Writing Road to Reading, and the PUBLIC LIBRARY extensively,
developing a great home library and raising chickens all along the
way.

so, is there an official "introduce yourself" place, or is this it?

hoping to interact quite a bit as I make some decisions about our
education options...

blessings, Heidi

Fetteroll

Hi Heidi!

Welcome :-)

> We never have used just one curriculum, ranging from Principle
> Approach to KONOS to Robinson Method, utilizing Saxon Math, the
> Writing Road to Reading, and the PUBLIC LIBRARY extensively,
> developing a great home library and raising chickens all along the
> way.

From that description it doesn't sound like unschooling. It sounds like
eclectic or relaxed homeschooling.

People often use the term unschooling to mean not doing a curriculum. But
unschooling is a word coined by John Holt who observed how children
naturally learn what they need by living life.

So, I don't know how useful this list would be for your needs, but you're
plenty welcome to check us out and see :-)

Joyce

Heidi <[email protected]>

Hi Joyce,

Thanks for the greeting.

This looks like ONE BUSY BOARD!

Relaxed, eh? Yeah, that'd be me! L So how does unschooling differ
from the kind of thing I describe: picking and choosing what looks
good, letting my kids get their knowledge from reading very good
books and some good Natural Science TV programs, and letting
especially the "littles" play more than any other thing? (MATH EVERY
DAY has been just about the only rule)...

I'll see if the library has Holt's books and read up on his theories.

and I'm sure there'll be lots of questions for the board.

thanks again

Heidi

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
> Hi Heidi!
>
> Welcome :-)
>
> > We never have used just one curriculum, ranging from Principle
> > Approach to KONOS to Robinson Method, utilizing Saxon Math, the
> > Writing Road to Reading, and the PUBLIC LIBRARY extensively,
> > developing a great home library and raising chickens all along the
> > way.
>
> From that description it doesn't sound like unschooling. It sounds
like
> eclectic or relaxed homeschooling.
>
> People often use the term unschooling to mean not doing a
curriculum. But
> unschooling is a word coined by John Holt who observed how children
> naturally learn what they need by living life.
>
> So, I don't know how useful this list would be for your needs, but
you're
> plenty welcome to check us out and see :-)
>
> Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/11/03 6:13 PM, Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...> at
bunsofaluminum60@... wrote:

> So how does unschooling differ
> from the kind of thing I describe: picking and choosing what looks
> good, letting my kids get their knowledge from reading very good
> books and some good Natural Science TV programs, and letting
> especially the "littles" play more than any other thing? (MATH EVERY
> DAY has been just about the only rule)...

Well unschoolers would let all the kids play more than any other thing. :-)
It's how we're designed to learn. It's we adults who interfere. We get
nervous about not seeing progress that resembles school and then make them
do things so we can see the results of learning.

Unschooled kids pick and choose the books they read, the shows they watch,
the things they do. The only restriction is interest ;-) It's trust that
kids will learn what they need by using what they need to pursue their own
interests basically.

Joyce

Heidi <[email protected]>

Okay, you've given me some food for thought. I'll be checking out
Holt's books soon. And, back to lurking here for a bit while I make
some decisions about our family's education in future!

thanks again

Heidi

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
> on 1/11/03 6:13 PM, Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@h...> at
> bunsofaluminum60@h... wrote:
>
> > So how does unschooling differ
> > from the kind of thing I describe: picking and choosing what looks
> > good, letting my kids get their knowledge from reading very good
> > books and some good Natural Science TV programs, and letting
> > especially the "littles" play more than any other thing? (MATH
EVERY
> > DAY has been just about the only rule)...
>
> Well unschoolers would let all the kids play more than any other
thing. :-)
> It's how we're designed to learn. It's we adults who interfere. We
get
> nervous about not seeing progress that resembles school and then
make them
> do things so we can see the results of learning.
>
> Unschooled kids pick and choose the books they read, the shows they
watch,
> the things they do. The only restriction is interest ;-) It's trust
that
> kids will learn what they need by using what they need to pursue
their own
> interests basically.
>
> Joyce

Heidi <[email protected]>

Okay, you've given me some food for thought. I'll be checking out
Holt's books soon. And, back to lurking here for a bit while I make
some decisions about our family's education in future!

thanks again

Heidi

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
> on 1/11/03 6:13 PM, Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@h...> at
> bunsofaluminum60@h... wrote:
>
> > So how does unschooling differ
> > from the kind of thing I describe: picking and choosing what looks
> > good, letting my kids get their knowledge from reading very good
> > books and some good Natural Science TV programs, and letting
> > especially the "littles" play more than any other thing? (MATH
EVERY
> > DAY has been just about the only rule)...
>
> Well unschoolers would let all the kids play more than any other
thing. :-)
> It's how we're designed to learn. It's we adults who interfere. We
get
> nervous about not seeing progress that resembles school and then
make them
> do things so we can see the results of learning.
>
> Unschooled kids pick and choose the books they read, the shows they
watch,
> the things they do. The only restriction is interest ;-) It's trust
that
> kids will learn what they need by using what they need to pursue
their own
> interests basically.
>
> Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/03 6:47:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> Well unschoolers would let all the kids play more than any other thing. :-)
> It's how we're designed to learn. It's we adults who interfere. We get
> nervous about not seeing progress that resembles school and then make them
> do things so we can see the results of learning.
>
> Unschooled kids pick and choose the books they read, the shows they watch,
> the things they do. The only restriction is interest ;-) It's trust that
> kids will learn what they need by using what they need to pursue their own
> interests basically.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
I think this is the best description yet!

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

My new favorite unschooling book is "Homeschooling our children,
Unschooling ourselves by Alison McKee.

And the articles at unschooling.com are pretty cool too. :)

Sheila

--- In [email protected], "Heidi
<bunsofaluminum60@h...>" <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> Okay, you've given me some food for thought. I'll be checking out
> Holt's books soon. And, back to lurking here for a bit while I make
> some decisions about our family's education in future!
>
> thanks again
>
> Heidi
>
> --- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...>
> wrote:
> > on 1/11/03 6:13 PM, Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@h...> at
> > bunsofaluminum60@h... wrote:
> >
> > > So how does unschooling differ
> > > from the kind of thing I describe: picking and choosing what
looks
> > > good, letting my kids get their knowledge from reading very good
> > > books and some good Natural Science TV programs, and letting
> > > especially the "littles" play more than any other thing? (MATH
> EVERY
> > > DAY has been just about the only rule)...
> >
> > Well unschoolers would let all the kids play more than any other
> thing. :-)
> > It's how we're designed to learn. It's we adults who interfere.
We
> get
> > nervous about not seeing progress that resembles school and then
> make them
> > do things so we can see the results of learning.
> >
> > Unschooled kids pick and choose the books they read, the shows
they
> watch,
> > the things they do. The only restriction is interest ;-) It's
trust
> that
> > kids will learn what they need by using what they need to pursue
> their own
> > interests basically.
> >
> > Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/03 4:13:50 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< letting my kids get their knowledge from reading very good books >>

<<(MATH EVERY DAY has been just about the only rule)>>

It's more structured than we've ever been!

Read a while, Heidi, and read some at www.unschooling.com, in the library
there (it's not really huge--some definitions and essays and lists) and the
message boards.

Sandra

Mary Bianco

>From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>

<<Well unschoolers would let all the kids play more than any other thing.
:-) It's how we're designed to learn. It's we adults who interfere. We get
nervous about not seeing progress that resembles school and then make them
do things so we can see the results of learning.

Unschooled kids pick and choose the books they read, the shows they watch,
the things they do. The only restriction is interest ;-) It's trust that
kids will learn what they need by using what they need to pursue their own
interests basically.>>



And we never ever make them do math!

Mary B



_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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Heidi <[email protected]>

We get
> nervous about not seeing progress that resembles school and then
make them
> do things so we can see the results of learning.

After 7 years of "relaxed" homeschooling, using methods that don't
resemble school in the slightest, and having results that please me
overall, I'm definitely not nervous about trying to look like school
or have results that look like school. I am pondering this deeply,
rattling it out in my computer journal, thinking about it, praying
about, discussing it with my hubby. And what I think makes me nervous
is...illiteracy, I guess.

How do unschooled children learn long division? What do they do to
practice it? What about algebra and other higher mathematics? I'm
reading a lot about the practical uses of what we learn, and I agree
wholeheartedly BUT...the brain work that goes into learning and
knowing how to do abstract number exercises like algebra, increases
the ability of the brain to think about ANY subject. It's GOOD for
the brain to "workout" by doing abstract stuff. And so, how would an
unschooling family get algebra across to the kids? Or long division,
for that matter? LOL

I "make" my kids do their math...lying in a puddle of sunshine on the
front room floor, wrap-ups in the recliner, Math Minute drills, etc.
Right now, the two younger ones are playing dominos...MATH! but would
unschooling REALLY say not to give them seat work to practice their
basic number skills, and on a consistent basis? If I waited for them
to come to me asking how to divide...well, I sure wouldn't hold my
breath!

truly, just wanting to figure it out.

blessings, HEidi


> And we never ever make them do math!
>
> Mary B
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/03 10:05:19 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< but would
unschooling REALLY say not to give them seat work to practice their
basic number skills, and on a consistent basis? >>

"Seat work" is schoolwork.

<<If I waited for them to come to me asking how to divide...well, I sure
wouldn't hold my
breath!>>

Mine all know how to divide. They might not know how to set it up to look
like traditional school divisor-format long division, but they divide things
in their heads I can't (I have to get the pencil and paper) and having
developed their own methods for figuring stuff out, they understand
mathematical thinking whereas most schoolkids only know how to do the
calcuations on a "problem" which is actually the solution to an unnamed
problem, without the calculations having been done.

Ten minutes ago, before I came in here, Holly and I were figuring out how
long a video tape was which included two 112 minute shows. It took
multiplication and division by 60 and she was right there and double checked
me.

It's hard to explain all at once how they've learned to do what they can do.
I wish I had collected all my reports of specific instances. Did anyone keep
or remember where I might find the one about Kirby teaching an adult to
multiply by 18?

The problem with "consistent" math lessons as I see it is that it separates
math from the rest of the world. And math exists throughout all other
things.

If math is treated as a discreet subject (or if anything else is), then if
the child decides he doesn't like math (or whatever it might be), he rejects
or avoids anything related to that. If he finds it difficult, he might tell
himself he's not good at math. But if there IS no "math" separate from other
things, he won't be able to avoid the world or think he's not good at
understanding the world.

Holly knows she's mathematically minded. But nobody makes a big deal about
it. She enjoys the kinds of puzzles and games that involve patterns and
numbers. She enjoys the math in music and in art. She enjoys the patterns
in words.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/12/03 12:04 AM, Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...> at
bunsofaluminum60@... wrote:

> and having results that please me overall,

What kind of results? Are they feelings of progress through academic
knowledge? It doesn't need to look like school to get those same feelings
that kids are making "academic progress".

And I'm not criticizing it. It's just a different goal than what unschoolers
have. If you have different goals than unschoolers, then it won't make sense
that we're giving up that sense of progress and the semi-guarantees of more
academic styles of homeschooling.

My (new found! ;-) goal is to live today joyfully. If my daughter can
explore what she enjoys, that will prepare her for doing what she enjoys.
Just as using English as a 2 yo is the foundation of a 3yos English. But a
2yo doesn't need to prepare or practice to speak as a 3yo or a 6yo or 20yo.
They learn what they need as they need it ... because they need it. :-) Even
though a 2yo will one day become someone who might need to ask a librarian
for help finding a book, they don't need to practice for it. ;-)

Life rarely throws us a curve where we need to go from knowing nothing to
knowing everything tomorrow. *If* kids are allowed to pursue what interests
them, then they acquire the skills and knowledge they need for those
interests as they need them.

If, on the other hand, kids are being prepared for tomorrow by getting the
knowledge they might need one day, it's much more difficult and takes much
longer. They end up having spent time on things they never needed.

We're certain that it's in the best interests of kids to acquire a
particular body of general knowledge because that's pretty much the only
thing we know. (It's what schools do.) But schools were originally set up to
provide general knowledge *not* because kids need that body of knowledge
(though most teachers are convinced that they do) but because it's an
efficient way to raise the population's average level of education. It's a
factory process concerned not with any one item on the production line but
on the output as a whole. There will be some tremendous successes. There
will be some scrap. But what's important is how it all averages out.

*If* schools were concerned with each individual child, they would provide
each child with an individualized education focused on that child's
strengths and desires and interests.

But they don't. They can't. It would be too expensive.

> And what I think makes me nervous is...illiteracy, I guess.

Unschooled kids learn to read when they are ready and when they need to.
Usually it's around the same age as schooled kids 6-8. Sometimes earlier.
Sometimes later. But by 18 those unschooled kids who learned to read later
are indistinguishable from those who learned to read earlier. (In school
naturally-later readers would have been shamed and humiliated -- just by
having "specialists" focus even kindly on something that they couldn't do --
and convinced that they couldn't read or that reading was dumb.)

> How do unschooled children learn long division? What do they do to
> practice it?

I recognize that the world is full of numbers and opportunities to
manipulate those numbers. My daughter is figuring out how numbers work
because she wants the information manipulating the numbers will give her.

By using math in real life she understands the context and can see why she
needs to do something. On a math paper 34-17 doesn't mean anything. It
doesn't have any affect on her life if she gets it right or wrong. (Which is
why schools need to impose artificial consequences on getting things right
and wrong.) But in real life, her purpose might be to figure out if she has
enough for 2 toys. So she might subtract the price of one toy from what she
has or she might add the prices of the two toys together. She *wants* the
information and has a stake in extracting what she needs from it. How she
goes about it isn't important. What's important is gaining enough
understanding of why she's doing what she's doing. And the understanding is
pretty much built in to the problem because it's a problem in real life. She
won't make the mistake of subtracting the price of one toy from the other.
She won't add the price of one toy to how much she has. It wouldn't make
sense.

But in school style math where the numbers are taken out of context, there
isn't that feedback that the process you're using doesn't make sense.
Sometimes you add. Sometimes you subtract. The only difference is in what
you're told to do.

School-style learning (in math programs) focuses on the mechanics of
manipulating numbers. The designers hope that by doing enough kids will
understand, but the goal is on getting them to be able to perform the
operations. If they do happen to understand why they'd doing something
that's a potential side effect not the goal.

It's *really* hard to explain! It *does* work. But the process doesn't look
at all like school-style math learning.

Learning math from life is the way your children learned English. It was a
useful tool to get what they needed so they got better at it as a side
effect. And that worked pretty well!

Learning math school style is the way children learn (or don't learn!) a
foreign language in school. It's memorization without needing something.
It's needing something for a right now purpose that provides the opportunity
to understand. And that's what's lacking in school style learning.

> What about algebra and other higher mathematics? I'm
> reading a lot about the practical uses of what we learn, and I agree
> wholeheartedly BUT...

> the brain work that goes into learning and
> knowing how to do abstract number exercises like algebra, increases
> the ability of the brain to think about ANY subject. It's GOOD for
> the brain to "workout" by doing abstract stuff.

But is it the algebra that is a good workout or are people who are naturally
good at algebraic thinking able to *get* a good work out from it?

Running is a good exercise. But is it the running that's good or having the
capacity (or potential capacity) to use you legs and lungs in that way to
get the benefit from running that's good. Someone on crutches can't get much
out of running.

Algebra is good if a child *wants* that type of brain exercise or enjoys
that type of accomplishment (even if they find it difficult). It exercises
something the child finds natural to exercise.

But if it isn't natural, it's like trying to exercise a body part that
doesn't exist.

There's a word for that type of study but I've forgotten what it is.
Researchers will look for a positive result and then try to find the factors
that are different between that and the negative result. Like why does this
group of people have unclogged arteries and this group of people have
clogged arteries.

It's a useful process but it does have it's flaws. It tends to focus on what
the factors are rather than why that those factors might be common to that
group. Are Mediterraneans healthier because they use a lot of olive oil or
because their bodies process fat differently?

So is it algebra that is the benefit or is it having the ability to use
algebra *and* having access to algebra that is the benefit?

> And so, how would an
> unschooling family get algebra across to the kids?

There is algebraic thinking in life. The *thinking* part is the most
important in understanding. It's using algebra and understanding why you're
doing what you're doing. And when a problem is in context, the what and why
are pretty obvious.

When we were flying from Boston to LA we stopped in Pittsburgh. It took us
an hour by plane. It takes us 11 hours by car. We had 5 more hours to get to
California. Kathryn, who was 10 at the time, said "Do you know how long it
would take to drive to California? It would take 66 hours." *That's*
algebraic thinking. (Which someone neatly described as using what you know
to figure out what you don't know.) The context of the problem supplied the
sense of how the numbers needed to be manipulated. Her curiosity supplied
the desire to manipulate them.

Once there's understanding, doing it more formally is a loads easier if the
need is there. Trying to do it formally without understanding it is very
very difficult. Which is why it take *years* for schools to teach kids math.
(And schools often fail!)

There are unschooled kids who have needed formal math for college who have
learned high school math in 6-9 months. The need was there. The background
of having used math in context was there. That made the formal part much
easier.

When kids know that whether they know something is their choice, then
acquiring it is a lot easier. It's also easier if they don't have years of
experience with learning it being difficult. It's just something they want
to learn, or are required to learn to get to something they want to learn,
so they learn it.

> I "make" my kids do their math...lying in a puddle of sunshine on the
> front room floor, wrap-ups in the recliner, Math Minute drills, etc.
> Right now, the two younger ones are playing dominos...MATH! but would
> unschooling REALLY say not to give them seat work to practice their
> basic number skills, and on a consistent basis? If I waited for them
> to come to me asking how to divide...well, I sure wouldn't hold my
> breath!

I assume by putting quotes around "make" you mean you don't need to hold
them down and force them. But ultimately they don't have a choice not to do
math in some way.

It's a pretty picture you paint. It might be similar to if your husband
loved to watch you snuggling with a baby in a rocker in the sunshine and
decided *that* was a good reason to have another baby: so he could delight
in the image that brought him joy. And the cost to you wouldn't be part of
his equation.

If you didn¹t make them would they be doing it on their own? Even if it
looks peacefully satisfying, if the kids don't have a choice, then the
outward look isn't nearly as pretty on the inside. They're just making do
with what they are permitted to have.

I'm not saying you need to change. I'm just describing the difference. If
what you're doing works fine, there's no impetus to try out something that
will probably not feel very satisfying to get to what we feel is a better
place. You need to want to get to that place we feel is better in order for
for the changes you'll need to make to feel worth it.

You might gain some insight that I'd be less effective at providing by
reading "Christian Unschooling: Growing Your Children In the Freedom of
Christ by Teri Brown and Elissa Wahl
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1891400223/qid=1042375222/sr=
8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3248772-4067153?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). I think they
have a website too. If you use Google to search for their names and
"Christian Unschooling" it might turn it up. (Or some kind person here might
be able to supply it!)

Joyce

Heidi <[email protected]>

Sandra,

Thanks for the reply. In fact, your story about Kirby teaching how to
multiply by 18 was one of the things my hubby and I talked about last
night. I think it's on the Unschooling.com page.

YOu know what I'm thinking about? My own son, Robby, when he was
three, and we were traveling down the road together, and he said from
his car seat "If Jason was here, there would be six in the car. And
if Daddy got out, then there would be five again." and we had math
right then and there. He had never so much as written a number on
paper, but he knew.

He still does this kind of thing, as in your example of the length of
videos...L "There's 104 minutes on the tape. How many hours is it?"
(This is Robby, not me, initiating) and I'll sit there pondering and
trying to do the division...and he comes up with the answer. "An hour
and 44 minutes" and I'm all "It's a little less than two hours" LOL

Hmmm, he does it in his schoolwork division, too and makes me nuts,
leaving out steps left and right, because he's coming up with the
answers in his head.

wow. Has this ever given me pause.

Heidi

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/11/03 10:05:19 PM, bunsofaluminum60@h...
writes:
>
> << but would
> unschooling REALLY say not to give them seat work to practice their
> basic number skills, and on a consistent basis? >>
>
> "Seat work" is schoolwork.
>
> <<If I waited for them to come to me asking how to divide...well, I
sure
> wouldn't hold my
> breath!>>
>
> Mine all know how to divide. They might not know how to set it up
to look
> like traditional school divisor-format long division, but they
divide things
> in their heads I can't (I have to get the pencil and paper) and
having
> developed their own methods for figuring stuff out, they understand
> mathematical thinking whereas most schoolkids only know how to do
the
> calcuations on a "problem" which is actually the solution to an
unnamed
> problem, without the calculations having been done.
>
> Ten minutes ago, before I came in here, Holly and I were figuring
out how
> long a video tape was which included two 112 minute shows. It took
> multiplication and division by 60 and she was right there and
double checked
> me.
>
> It's hard to explain all at once how they've learned to do what
they can do.
> I wish I had collected all my reports of specific instances. Did
anyone keep
> or remember where I might find the one about Kirby teaching an
adult to
> multiply by 18?
>
> The problem with "consistent" math lessons as I see it is that it
separates
> math from the rest of the world. And math exists throughout all
other
> things.
>
> If math is treated as a discreet subject (or if anything else is),
then if
> the child decides he doesn't like math (or whatever it might be),
he rejects
> or avoids anything related to that. If he finds it difficult, he
might tell
> himself he's not good at math. But if there IS no "math" separate
from other
> things, he won't be able to avoid the world or think he's not good
at
> understanding the world.
>
> Holly knows she's mathematically minded. But nobody makes a big
deal about
> it. She enjoys the kinds of puzzles and games that involve
patterns and
> numbers. She enjoys the math in music and in art. She enjoys the
patterns
> in words.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 5:57:37 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< Once there's understanding, doing it more formally is a loads easier if the

need is there. Trying to do it formally without understanding it is very

very difficult. Which is why it take *years* for schools to teach kids math.

(And schools often fail!) >>

Schools do worse than fail. They convince kids that math is too hard, not
fun, not worth knowing and that if they can't understand all of it, none of
it is theirs to own or use.

That can't happen with unschooling.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2003 7:57:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> I'm not saying you need to change. I'm just describing the difference. If
> what you're doing works fine, there's no impetus to try out something that
> will probably not feel very satisfying to get to what we feel is a better
> place. You need to want to get to that place we feel is better in order for
> for the changes you'll need to make to feel worth it.
>

And it wouldn't be unschooling.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2003 7:57:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> > and having results that please me overall,
>
> What kind of results? Are they feelings of progress through academic
> knowledge? It doesn't need to look like school to get those same feelings
> that kids are making "academic progress".
>
> And I'm not criticizing it. It's just a different goal than what
> unschoolers
> have. If you have different goals than unschoolers, then it won't make
> sense
> that we're giving up that sense of progress and the semi-guarantees of more
> academic styles of homeschooling.
>
> My (new found! ;-) goal is to live today joyfully. If my daughter can
> explore what she enjoys, that will prepare her for doing what she enjoys.
> Just as using English as a 2 yo is the foundation of a 3yos English. But a
> 2yo doesn't need to prepare or practice to speak as a 3yo or a 6yo or 20yo.
> They learn what they need as they need it ... because they need it. :-)
> Even
> though a 2yo will one day become someone who might need to ask a librarian
> for help finding a book, they don't need to practice for it. ;-)
>
>

Another keeper, Joyce!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi <[email protected]>

Hi Joyce

thanks. Good reply. I appreciate it.

>What kind of results? Are they feelings of progress through academic
> knowledge? It doesn't need to look like school to get those same
>feelings that kids are making "academic progress".
>
> And I'm not criticizing it. It's just a different goal than what
unschoolers have.

I understand that you don't mean to criticize, and I understand
better what was meant by "looking like school"... kids flopping on
the floor to do their math might not look like school, but it's
getting school results. But it still isn't something I would say I'm
nervous about. I've had to defend our decision not to start Katie
until she was eight, many times. It matters not one whit to me that
she's "behind grade level." She wasn't ready for formal
learning...but now this unschooling thing is telling me formal
learning isn't the way kids learn best, anyway. sheesh. see how ya
are? ;)

*If* kids are allowed to pursue what interests
> them, then they acquire the skills and knowledge they need for those
> interests as they need them.

Ah! and herein lies the rub! *If* Robby pursues only what interests
him, he will be going from video to computer game, and back again to
the TV. Maybe I'm not getting it, but surely an hour doing division
at the kitchen table is stretching his brain better than shooting
down asteroids on the computer for an hour?

Now that I've said that, I'm thinking about my 15 year old daughter.
She is a voracious and very good reader. Better at reading than I am,
and I'm a GOOD reader. Because I am a Tolkien fan, I introduced The
Hobbit to her when she was seven. She ate it up. At age 10, she read
Lord of the Rings. She read it again. She immersed herself in Middle
Earth, checking out books of artwork by various artists, writing
about the strengths and weaknesses in the different characters of the
book, and of course, spent lots of time online chatting with other
Tolkien people, and looking forward mightily to the release of the
movie. I let her "pursue her interest"...and she followed it into
Medieval Europe, and British History. She knows who William the
Conqueror was, who was King in Britain when he landed. She knows what
the people were called who lived in England before the Saxons came.
She knows all about Arthur and Gueneviere and Camelot. She has read
all of Shakespeare's comedies, and is right now reading through
Canterbury Tales...again. She walks around speaking in different
English accents: Scottish, Irish, Australian, Cockney, Liverpool. A
true Anglophile, and it started at age 7, with The Hobbit.

Okay. Does that description sound like unschooling? I didn't
interfere with this in any way, besides once in awhile reading a book
she brought home, so we could discuss it.

We started her in an official correspondence high school (Christian
Liberty Academy) because at the end of last year she informed us she
wanted more structure and more official assignments to tackle. And
she does get the assignments done, but she curls up comfy and just
reads for pleasure...her history book!

The difference in this house is, Abbie is verbal. She loves reading
and writing (and talking!) and this pursuit of Middle Earth, and
things English is verbally founded. My younger ones aren't proving to
be so verbally oriented. They do love their "screen time" though!
Movies, computer games, movies again. Seems mindless to me. I'd have
a really tough time just letting them go, the way I did Abbie,
because I don't think that they would follow pursuits that teach them
anything.

*whimper*

This has turned out way long. Sorry. I'm more thinking aloud than
anything.

>*If* schools were concerned with each individual child, they would
>provide each child with an individualized education focused on that
>child's strengths and desires and interests.

Provide each child with individualized education...okay, I must be
completely misunderstanding. Isn't unschooling about NOT "providing
an education" but simply allowing kids their head, letting them go
where they will? Where does guidance and provision come into play?

> > And what I think makes me nervous is...illiteracy, I guess.

What I meant by illiteracy is an overall inability to do basic skills
needed to have a life. Robby's not telling time, for instance. I
really want him to know analog time...and he gets the general idea of
it, but has to rely on digital clocks to know what time it is. I hate
that. As for reading, Abbie was reading at age 5, after one official
lesson. Robby had about a week of phonics, and then took off reading
at age 7. Katie isn't there yet, though we have been doing phonics
this year, and she's 8 and a half. I'm confident it will come in
time, but it really is like holding my breath, like the one article
where a son didn't read until age 14! ack! And I thank God every
day, when we're looking at books, and she's sounding out words and
stuff, that she's at home. The damage the schools would have done,
putting her in special classes...ugh.


> Unschooled kids learn to read when they are ready and when they
need to.
> Usually it's around the same age as schooled kids 6-8. Sometimes
earlier.
> Sometimes later. But by 18 those unschooled kids who learned to
read later
> are indistinguishable from those who learned to read earlier.


>> How do unschooled children learn long division? What do they do to
>> practice it?
>
> I recognize that the world is full of numbers and opportunities to
> manipulate those numbers. My daughter is figuring out how numbers
work
> because she wants the information manipulating the numbers will
give her.
> School-style learning (in math programs) focuses on the mechanics of
> manipulating numbers. The designers hope that by doing enough kids
will
> understand, but the goal is on getting them to be able to perform
the
> operations. If they do happen to understand why they'd doing
something
> that's a potential side effect not the goal.

This is another thing my husband and I talked about last night. The
times tables is something that my boy struggles with a little bit,
and I did too, in 4th and 5th grade. As an adult, I know all the
times tables through 12, no problem. The goal for my teachers in
fourth and fifth grades was to have students who knew their times
tables. I never did get it beyond 4's...and now I know them all,
having gotten back into it for teaching my kids math. Is it because
my brain wasn't ready at age 10, but it was at age 35? Hmmm.

>
> It's *really* hard to explain! It *does* work. But the process
doesn't look
> at all like school-style math learning.

> You might gain some insight that I'd be less effective at providing
by
> reading "Christian Unschooling: Growing Your Children In the
Freedom of
> Christ by Teri Brown and Elissa Wahl

I've been to that site, and may try to find that book. Is the Elissa
from that page the same Elissa who posts here?

Thanks again. My time is up for now, but GUARANTEED I'll be back.
Talk about life handing a person learning experiences! L

blessings, Heidi

Fetteroll

on 1/12/03 9:50 AM, Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...> at
bunsofaluminum60@... wrote:

> But it still isn't something I would say I'm
> nervous about.

Then you're part way there already!

But you are concerned about Robbie not being able to use an analog clock.
And you're concerned about Katie not reading.

What if it goes on? At what point would you step in and say you've *got* to
learn?

Of course it's not that unschoolers don't worry about the same things! No
matter how confident you are, when later learning hits home, you *worry*!
Saying not to worry was good in theory, but when it's you're own kid! ;-)

And lots of list time is dealing with those doubts. But then people will
tell how their kids couldn't read analog clocks until they got a job and had
to know what time to get ready for lunch ;-) when they had a *reason* for
knowing! (My daughter can sometimes figure it out and she's 11.) Or, as you
found at Sandra's site but better, real live people who are right here will
tell you about their son not reading until 13 and so on.

> Okay. Does that description sound like unschooling? I didn't
> interfere with this in any way, besides once in awhile reading a book
> she brought home, so we could discuss it.

Yes, that *is* unschooling.

But the true test is being able to trust that process when it doesn't look
like it's leading to something that kids might learn in school.

It's being able to trust that video games and TV also have value. (It helps
to play the games with them. Games *are* math. The strategy necessary is a
much higher order of mathematical thinking than school or math program can
provide. It's on the order of chess. And we all "know" how good chess is for
thinking :-)

Sandra has a great section on her website about video games:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

It *is* uncomfortable to watch my daughter watch TV. But I've come to
recognize that it comes when she's in between ideas for her drawings and
writings. It might be down time as the brain runs in the back ground for
inspiration or waiting for someting that does inspire her. Or both. Or
something else. I've just gain confidence that she there are things she
loves doing besides watching TV.

And if there weren't, I think I remember Steven Spielberg mentioning how
much he *loved* TV as a kid! There's a reason kids are drawn to what they're
drawn to.

> This has turned out way long. Sorry. I'm more thinking aloud than
> anything.

And I've found that's the way I learn best. I write to present my thoughts
as clearly as I can. And because I do it in public other people get to read
them ;-)

> Provide each child with individualized education...okay, I must be
> completely misunderstanding. Isn't unschooling about NOT "providing
> an education" but simply allowing kids their head, letting them go
> where they will? Where does guidance and provision come into play?

No, I was just contrasting what we *think* schools provide with what they
really provide. We *think* they're giving our children the best education as
possible. But what they're trying to provide is the best *mass* education.

And then people assume that since schools provide a general education then
that's what they need to do at home to provide the best education.

Joyce

Linda Wyatt

I rarely post here- not enough time- but this subject is near and dear to
my heart, so it jumped out at me.


> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 05:04:03 -0000
> From: "Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...>"
><bunsofaluminum60@...>
> Subject: Re: Hi...testing the waters...
>

> How do unschooled children learn long division? What do they do to
> practice it?


What do unschooled children need "long division" for? And could someone
please explain to me what long division actually is, and is there such a
thing as short division?

I know how to divide. Do I use "long division"? Beats me. Quite possibly
not, since my elementary school experience was at a "free school" where we
didn't have the usual types of "subjects" that most elementary schols have.
I didn't take a math class until I was 10 and decided to listen in on a
group of kids learning algebra. (Which I immediately LOVED, and have ever
since!)

My point is that it's important to understand the concept of division, but
HOW you do that is not so important. There are several different ways.

I'm going to say the next bit in all-caps not because I'm yelling at you,
but because I really, really mean it and I think it's critically important
and most people have no idea.

I HATE THE WAY SCHOOLS TEACH MATH BECAUSE IT TAKES ALL THE MEANING, JOY AND
BEAUTY OUT OF IT!!!

People do NOT need to learn math the way it is taught in schools. In fact,
they don't need to "learn math" at all. Math is INSEPERABLE from most
everything else in life, and if you live a full life, you'll learn all the
math you need because you need it. It's there. It's part of everything.
You couldn't escape it if you tried really hard.

SOME people will love it and get interested and want to pursue things to a
deeper level and learn more advanced math and do all sorts of cool things
with it. MOST won't.

If you try to force school math on kids early on, and turn them off the
subject- a VERY common thing that happens because most adults are so
terrified of math because of their own awful school math experiences- they
will likely develop an aversion, and at any rate, they are extremely
unlikely to remember what they've "learned" anyway.

How much of the algebra you were taught in school do you remember and use?
I'm serious. What do you still use? What turned out to be irrelevant?
What could you easily look up and re-learn if you needed to? How likely
are you to need to do that?


> What about algebra and other higher mathematics?

First, I don't think algebra is "higher math" but I'll let that go. I
think it's mind-candy.

But what about higher math?

Who needs it?

That's a real question. What kind of people use higher math? What do they
use it for? When and how did they learn it? You might want to find some
and ask them.

What I've found is this: most people who use higher math learned some in
school, because that's where they were. But MOSTLY, they learned it
through using it as they needed it. Like on-the-job training. They took
it further than school does because it actually interested them. They had
a use for it.

I remember the day I realized that calculus had a purpose. I was stunned!
Why didn't they ever tell us this in high school? I had a rocky
relationship with calculus in high school (along with a rocky relationship
with just about everything, as most teens have!) but once I settled on a
career path where I NEEDED it, it was suddenly easy and made sense and I
relearned it all in a few weeks.

If I had not had that career path, I never would have looked at calculus again.

I no longer have that career, and calculus is unlikely to be part of my
everyday life (although you never know) so I no longer use it and have
forgotten most of it. Big deal. (Now, I use a lot more geometry.)


> I'm reading a lot about the practical uses of what we learn, and I agree
> wholeheartedly BUT...the brain work that goes into learning and
> knowing how to do abstract number exercises like algebra, increases
> the ability of the brain to think about ANY subject.


YES!!! It does!

But it works the other way around, too. Learning abstract thinking any
other way will make it easier to learn algebra, should you need to do so.
Algebra isn't the only way to learn it. Just a fun one.



> It's GOOD for
> the brain to "workout" by doing abstract stuff. And so, how would an
> unschooling family get algebra across to the kids? Or long division,
> for that matter? LOL

Well, to start with, we don't do "math" at all here. It isn't a separate
thing.

But we use it all the time.

Like this:

Suppose your Dad is coming in the morning to pick you up at 10:00am.
You need about an hour in the morning to get up and shower and eat
breakfast, to be ready to go.
You need about 8 or 9 hours of sleep.
What time do you need to get to bed by?

(The cool thing about that particular need is that it includes using
base-12 math as well as base-10)


My current favorite real-life mathematical figuring here:

We have a mini-van.
With all the seats in, it holds 7 people, and has a cargo space for two
bags of fencing equipment.
We have 4 people, and need cargo space for about three times what fits in
the back. Without the space, we had to shift bags of equipment in and out
of the car on a daily- or even twice daily- basis, to have what we needed
when and where we needed it.

I never made the shift from being 5 people to being 4 people, at least not
in a practical way.
One of my kids did.
He suggested one day that instead of shifting gear around and having to
move it in and out of the car all the time, why not take the back seat out,
have seating for 4, and then keep all the gear in the car permanently. Not
only that, but it could be organized so we wouldn't even have to shift it
around for any particular class, each thing could be reached individually.

He redesigned the layout of everything in the car.

We changed it.

A simple change that required a large conceptual leap-which he made, but
the rest of us had not- and now, life is much simpler.

To really understand this and the effect it had, you should know that I
teach fencing, 6 classes per week, plus I give individual lessons. Four
different locations for the classes. Several different locations for the
lessons. Different groups of people at each class, with different
equipment needs. And all three kids fence, but they don't attend the same
classes. I have equipment in the car for about 30 people, plus a variety
of training equipment and record keeping stuff. We were really having an
issue with having the right gear in the car.


Algebra is the art of taking the information you have, the things you know,
and using that to figure out the information you don't have, that you need
to know. It's a puzzle. That's all. You "expose" kids to it by doing it,
by playing with it freely and uninhibitedly. By finding things fascinating
and wanting to figure out what you don't know. By experimenting. By
needing it.


> I "make" my kids do their math...lying in a puddle of sunshine on the
> front room floor, wrap-ups in the recliner, Math Minute drills, etc.
> Right now, the two younger ones are playing dominos...MATH!

No, it's playing dominoes. Why not let it be that?

Why separate math out of everything all the time? Why do people do that?

The way to learn math naturally is to let it be a natural part of
everything, like it is, and not make such a point of it all the time.

For example, what if, in writing and speaking, you had to stop and make a
point of every time you used the letter "e"?

Look, I'm writing an e-mail... USING THE LETTER E!

How ridiculous is that?

Yet people do it to math all the time.


> but would
> unschooling REALLY say not to give them seat work to practice their
> basic number skills, and on a consistent basis?

I wouldn't necessarily say it, but I also would NEVER do it. SEATWORK?!???
What on earth for?!?

And who came up with a term like that anyway? I find the very concept
nauseating, I really do. Sit here and do this. Whether you like it or
not. Whether you have any use for it or not. Stay in your seat, do your
seatwork. YUCK.

This does not mean that we don't have a zillion math books around here,
including workbooks and such. We do. I probably have more math books than
most schools do. But it's because I enjoy them. I NEVER make or even ask
my kids to have anything to do with them. It's my special interest, not
theirs. Once in a while, they'll pick one up, look through it, put it back
down. Sometimes, they'll use computer software that has math games on it-
more so when they were very young, not so much now. But I have never and
will never require it.

I will, however, discuss with them when I'm working on trigonometry for
fun. It's interesting to me, and they might also think it is. So far, mild
interest, no real excitement. That's fine. They know it's here. And they
know something about what it's for. They can ask if they need to.


The best thing for my kids having to do with math is that I love it, and
they know it. No math anxiety here. (Except for when my daughter had an
issue with girls in her scout troop telling her she's not learning anything
because she's homeschooled, and she came home wanting to "do math" and we
had a little talk about that.)

People learn best by having resources available, and interesting things to do.

Learning is interest-driven. Joy-driven. Need-driven.

But please don't make it a command performance. ESPECIALLY with math,
which is already handicapped by a national phobia about it.

The best thing you can do for your kids with math is to learn to love it
yourself. Play with it. REALLY learn it. Not just how to calculate, but
why it works that way. Why does borrowing work? Why does carrying work?
What is the real meaning of "place value" and why? Why do we use base-10
math. Learn some other system. Learn to multiply in binary. Play with
numbers. Play with shapes. Why are "odd" and "even" called that? Is it
important? How many math words do you know? How many math words do you use
every day? (Count them! Make a list!) How much math is there in your life
that you are so comfortable with you're not aware of it?

And my very favorite math question:

How, exactly, do you know when it's safe to cross the street?

:-)


Play with patterns. Play with sets. Go outside and throw rocks and pay
attention to the paths they travel. Drop stones into a pond and watch the
ripples. Figure out why buildings don't fall down- or why they do. Ponder
why the wind off Lake Michigan travels through the city of Chicago the way
it does. And Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plains...
what's different in very windy places? How do you need to change things to
accomodate that? Or other weather? Why are most of the roofs in places
that get a lot of snow not flat?

I could go on and on and on and on. You can, too.

Question everything. Figure some of it out. Don't worry about whether you
are learning math or not. You are. It's there. It's ALWAYS there.


> If I waited for them
> to come to me asking how to divide...well, I sure wouldn't hold my
> breath!

Why would they not ask you?

If they needed to divide and couldn't figure it out, they woudn't ask for help?

Or is it that you believe they'd never need to?

Sometimes, we buy a box of popsicles. In our family, treats like that are
portioned out by shares, so each kid gets a fair share. They're into this.
But the youngest used to have to ask me how to figure out what her share
was. She very specifically DID come to me and ask me to help her figure it
out- to learn how to divide.

Then she thought it was cool, and figured out shares of practically
everything in the house.

But NONE of my kids, as far as I know, can do division on paper, using the
method taught in schools. They've never needed to. They do it in their
heads. They estimate, when that's good enough for what they need. They
use calculators.

And honestly, that's what almost everyone does in real life when they need
to divide big numbers anyway, because few people trust their own figuring
enough to use it without checking. I used to freak people out when I ran a
food buying club and did all the invoicing and such by hand, no calculator.

>
> truly, just wanting to figure it out.

And that's what it's all about. Figuring stuff out that you need to know.
Remember that.


Well. I kind of got going on this, didn't I?

Linda


Linda Wyatt
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda/index.shtml
Learning everywhere, all the time
Algebra Before Breakfast

Fetteroll

on 1/12/03 11:00 AM, Linda Wyatt at hilinda@... wrote:

> I rarely post here- not enough time- but this subject is near and dear to
> my heart, so it jumped out at me.

Goodness, Hi Linda! :-) Almost speak of the devil.

I *almost* mentioned your name in conjunction with the tidy description of
algebra that you provided years ago and I just repeated. But my sentences
tend to be unwieldy at times ;-) and it seemed directed at too few who might
remember.

*Wonderful* post!

Joyce

The Robbins' Nest

<<<When we were flying from Boston to LA we stopped in Pittsburgh. It took us
an hour by plane. It takes us 11 hours by car. We had 5 more hours to get to
California. Kathryn, who was 10 at the time, said "Do you know how long it
would take to drive to California? It would take 66 hours." *That's*
algebraic thinking. (Which someone neatly described as using what you know
to figure out what you don't know.) The context of the problem supplied the
sense of how the numbers needed to be manipulated. Her curiosity supplied
the desire to manipulate them.>>>

This is a real life example of math in our home recently.

My ds9 has decided to start collecting baseball and football cards. He spent some of his Christmas money he received on a huge box of them and now relatives are starting to give him their old collections of cards. He probably now has over 600-700 cards. Some were in a long slender box and he wanted to count them all. He had counted to about 100 or so and realized that this way would take FOREVER. The cards were in a small box and I suggested that he measure one small part of the box, count how many were in that section, and then multiply it by how many total sections there were altogether. He 'got it' right away and was very thankful for the tip. He was trying to figure out how many card protector sheets he would need........one sheet hold 9 cards, one large package of card protectors had 75 sheets ($9.95) vs. a smaller package that had only 10 sheets in it ($1.95), so......this was a very practical (for him) type of multiplication problem. He also had to budget his remaining money so we had to find the best bargain for his money.

What I found a little surprising about this situation was that instead of initially using a calculator (which he plays around with a lot) he wanted to figure it in his head, then check it on paper, then check it with the calculator. He seems to love the problem solving aspect of things and I think using that calculator makes it just too easy for him...............


Kimber
The Robbins' Nest
ds Alex (9 3/4) and dd Mady (7)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/12/2003 11:03:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
hilinda@... writes:

> The best thing for my kids having to do with math is that I love it, and
> they know it. No math anxiety here. (Except for when my daughter had an
> issue with girls in her scout troop telling her she's not learning anything
> because she's homeschooled, and she came home wanting to "do math" and we
> had a little talk about that.)

I hate having to separate life into subjects, but my daughter also questioned
her learning because of peer comments. I rattled off a particular day for her
and how what she was doing could be called math or history or writing or
reading. It's a shame the ps brainwashing had to momentarily affect my
daughter's confidence in her abilities. Luckily it was only a transient
doubt; she now usually questions those who question her.

Ginny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 9:51:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> This is another thing my husband and I talked about last night. The
> times tables is something that my boy struggles with a little bit,
> and I did too, in 4th and 5th grade. As an adult, I know all the
> times tables through 12, no problem. The goal for my teachers in
> fourth and fifth grades was to have students who knew their times
> tables. I never did get it beyond 4's...and now I know them all,
>

Who decided that 12 is as far as you need to know? And for what purpose?
Why not 13s or 14s? Why in 4th and 5th grade etc etc....My 5 year old son
came up to me a few months ago and said "you know what mom...four 5s is 20.
And you know what else, five 4s is 20." Not sure what he was doing that
prompted that but he figured it out. He says things like that all the time
and will always remember that four 5s is 20.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

>From: "Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...>"

<<I "make" my kids do their math...lying in a puddle of sunshine on the
front room floor, wrap-ups in the recliner, Math Minute drills, etc.
Right now, the two younger ones are playing dominos...MATH! but would
unschooling REALLY say not to give them seat work to practice their
basic number skills, and on a consistent basis? If I waited for them
to come to me asking how to divide...well, I sure wouldn't hold my
breath!>>


Well you obviously know that there is math all around us and kids can
actually do math every day with out being made to. Heck it started with my
kids and fractions when they were 2 and I would cut their toast. What we
have to do is trust that they will learn what they need to and want to when
it's important for them, and get this, if at all. What makes you think that
all your kids will want and need to learn algebra to have a great life? I do
agree that just thinking and learning stimulates the mind, but why does it
have to be something you think is important when you think it needs to be
learned? Don't get this in a snappish way, I'm just asking. I'm not quite as
knowledgable on how to write gently like Joyce!!

But really, if your child is into frogs and how many kinds there are, the
whole life cycle, etc. doesn't that stimulate him just as much if not more
because he's learning on his own and really loving it?

I would love for my kids to be into algebra and enjoy it. I loved math in
high school. I hated history though so would I be disappointed if they
decided to concentrate on that instead of algebra? Not at all. I can't say
what my kids will want to do when they get older. I do know I can't make
that call now and neither can my kids. But I do know that whatever their
interests are, it will lead them further into finding their way and what
they love and really want to do. That's for them to decide. And if my
children are 17 and find that they need higher math for college, I also have
no doubt that they will go out on their own and do what it takes to get what
they want. I've seen it done with quite a few other unschoolers and I'm
comfortable in believing my children can do the same.

Mary B




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kayb85 <[email protected]>

> You might gain some insight that I'd be less effective at providing
by
> reading "Christian Unschooling: Growing Your Children In the
Freedom of
> Christ by Teri Brown and Elissa Wahl
> (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/1891400223/qid=1042375222/sr=
> 8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3248772-4067153?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). I
think they
> have a website too. If you use Google to search for their names and
> "Christian Unschooling" it might turn it up. (Or some kind person
here might
> be able to supply it!)
>
> Joyce

Have you read the book, Joyce? I think you would find it not to be a
great unschooling book. It is a good book to get strict school-at-
homers to relax and not feel guilty about doing fun stuff with their
kids instead of always doing text books. However, I think it would be
easy for someone to come away from reading that book thinking that
what they do is unschooling as long as they *only* make their kids do
math and language arts every day. A lot of the ideas in the book are
closer to relaxed or ecclectic than unschooling.

For example, in the "What is Unschooling" chapter, they have people
quoted who say what unschooling means to them. One person said,

"I have a definite set of goals in mind for my kids to know/learn
during their homeschooling. THey need to be able to read well, write
well and do math. Everything else can be pursued to their heart's
content. THey spend days obsessed with a project. It doesn't
matter, there is no hurry..."

And then the author says, "The common theme is allowing your children
the freedom to choose, in most cases, what they will learn."

Here are some other interesting quotes from people sharing their
ideas on unschooling different subjects.

"My favorite language arts idea is having my son dictate a story or
book to me..."

"For history, we made a timeline with continuous computer paper (so
it folds neatly back into a box), with each horizontal page
representing a century. As my children read books about different
time periods or people, they mark an interesting event or date from
the book onto the timeline in it's proper place"


Then they have essays contributed by Christian "unschoolers". In
introduction, they say, "Another point of contention is the purity of
unschooling that these families may or may not represent. Most
unschoolers have, at one point or another, used a workbook or part of
a curriculum. Some occasionally still do. Sometimes this is because
of insecurities or doubts that occasionally best us all (even many of
those who use a curriculum all the time have doubts about their
choice to homeschool) and sometimes it is because there is something
very important to us, that we as parents, wanted our children to
know..."

Some of the essays were really good but some of them sound like
they're describing Charlotte Mason. Some of them make it sound ok to
make their kids write.

Overall, I was disappointed in the book. When I first read it, I was
just beginning to embrace radical unschooling. I had already gone
through the relaxed but you still have to do math stage. I was
trying to get past that, and this book didn't help. I'm not saying
that there weren't some good thingsn about it, but it makes it seem
like it is really ok to keep making them do math and writing if that
is how you want to define unschooling.

Sheila

Mary Bianco

>From: "Heidi <bunsofaluminum60@...>"

<<Hmmm, he does it in his schoolwork division, too and makes me nuts,
leaving out steps left and right, because he's coming up with the
answers in his head.

wow. Has this ever given me pause.>>



I still remember when I realized that Joseph really "got" math. He was just
doing stuff in his head playing around with numbers and I understood that he
actually saw what he was doing. He's very good with numbers and at age 8,
has yet to wrote problems down on paper. In fact when he was into worksheets
a year or so ago, he would chose not to do math sheets as he didn't like to
write the numbers.

Mary B



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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2003 9:42:33 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> But you are concerned about Robbie not being able to use an analog clock.
>

This is what we did and the result is a conversation piece in our home.

Without mentioning a thing to Will about learning to tell time, we made a new
clock. I bought 3 cheapo clocks at the discount store (red, white and blue,
which I knew he'd like). I took them apart and removed a different hand from
each of the clocks, leaving an hour hand on one, a minute hand on the next,
and second hand on the last one. I then took the face off of one of them and
scanned it into my computer. (You don't have to do that, you could draw it
on paper.) In a paint program I eliminated the hours, filled in ticks for
the minutes/seconds and labelled them (by 5s). Then I labelled each clock
face with hours, minutes, seconds. I basically made 3 new clock faces. I
printed them out, cut them out, and then put them in the appropriate clock.

We hung them on the wall where another clock used to be, in the kitchen. We
weren't secretive about it. Just hung them up there. When he asked about
them, we told him what they were. He ignored them for quite some time.

We have lots of clocks in our house. Probably one of every kind in each
room. He was always able to read digital clocks and he understood all about
time. But I could tell regular clocks confused him. He understood about
minutes, but he couldn't understand why they weren't labelled on the clocks?
The couple of times I tried to explain it to him, it wasn't easy enough. (He
was 6.) He expressed frustration when I did try and so I backed off. I knew
he would figure it out, eventually, but it was frustrating to him, so I
wanted to help without being pointed about it.

So we hung up the 3-in-1 clock and he ignored them. But eventually he
noticed them and looked at them and asked about them. I never ever explained
to him how they worked, except to minimally say there are hours, minutes and
seconds there, just like the clock in the other room. Then one day he looked
at it and said, "It's 11......40!" Yep. That's right.

Those clocks are still in over the table in the new house. New people come
in and try to figure out what they are, and look at them and then figure it
out and ask why. I use them to tell time now a lot in the kitchen. I'll
look there before I look at the oven, for instance. I takes some geting used
to. Sometimes I get to talk about unschooling because of the clocks and
sometimes people think we're clever or just weird. But I like them.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 3:11:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> . I bought 3 cheapo clocks at the discount store (red, white and blue,
> which I knew he'd like). I took them apart and removed a different hand
> from
> each of the clocks, leaving an hour hand on one, a minute hand on the next,
>
> and second hand on the last one. I then took the face off of one of them
> and
> scanned it into my computer. (You don't have to do that, you could draw it
>
> on paper.) In a paint program I eliminated the hours, filled in ticks for
> the minutes/seconds and labelled them (by 5s). Then I labelled each clock
> face with hours, minutes, seconds. I basically made 3 new clock faces. I
> printed them out, cut them out, and then put them in the appropriate clock

Love that idea, may I borrow it.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi <[email protected]>

Why is 12 the magic number for times tables...I'm not sure this is
true, but I think it has to do with the fact that commerce used to
(maybe still does) deal in factors of 12...One Gross of something is
144 (12x12) I don't know why commerce dealt in factors of 12.

Why 4th and 5th grade? I dunno. Some educator decided that's when
kids' brains are ready for it? LOL That man who had many children and
observed them to see what their stages of development were, oh what
WAS his name? Malthus?

As for my boy, he knows 25 times ANYTHING, just about, because one
quarter is 25c! L

Heidi


> Who decided that 12 is as far as you need to know? And for what
purpose?
> Why not 13s or 14s? Why in 4th and 5th grade etc etc....My 5 year
old son
> came up to me a few months ago and said "you know what mom...four
5s is 20.
> And you know what else, five 4s is 20." Not sure what he was doing
that
> prompted that but he figured it out. He says things like that all
the time
> and will always remember that four 5s is 20.
> Pam G.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]