Re: More on family life
Pam Hartley
> I have a lot of the same ideas as you about our family working together toI don't think that's true. I think very few here would hesitate a moment
> keep things in some semblance of "decency".. ( as far as housekeeping,
> laundry, cooking, yardwork, etc) I know that most folks here dont agree
> with parents asking thier kids to pitch in..
before asking their children for help, with housecleaning or other projects.
If the house bothers me, I clean it. :) My angst about disorder, my problem
to solve it.
If I want help with cleaning, I ask for help, and have yet to have either my
husband or my children say, "No, I won't help you." Sometimes I have to wait
for help, which is reasonable enough if they're in the middle of something
else when I ask.
What I don't do is consider my stronger preference for orderliness to be
morally superior to the less-strong preference of the rest of my family. If
you take the "these slobs won't help me achieve any kind of decent living
environment!" out of the equation, and just be one member of the family
asking others for help with a project, I think housework becomes less a
mountain and more a molehill.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/8/03 10:50:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
BUT! the one who outright refuses is the one that came from a home (Dad's &
Stepmom's) that had required chores, with harsh consequences for not doing
them. Now that he is given a choice, he has chosen not to help.
He's De-cleaning. <g>
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> If I want help with cleaning, I ask for help, and have yet to have either myI have.
> husband or my children say, "No, I won't help you."
BUT! the one who outright refuses is the one that came from a home (Dad's &
Stepmom's) that had required chores, with harsh consequences for not doing
them. Now that he is given a choice, he has chosen not to help.
He's De-cleaning. <g>
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2003 7:25:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:
of a rake or a pine cone! I made the decision THEN that I wouldn't require MY
children to do yard work.
After Cameron left school, there was certainly more time for him to "do"
things in the yard: building and painting a fence, planning/planting a
garden, handweeding, raking, mowing, etc. Ben thought I should make him.
I'd ask for help. He's say, "Do I HAVE to?" I'd cheerfully say, "Nope."
A few months passed. One day he asked why I didn't MAKE him do things. All
his friends' parents made them do yardwork. I said that I only wanted him to
help if he WANTED to help. Being MADE to do yardwork would only make him hate
it. Doing it because he liked having a beautiful yard or to relieve me of
some of the labor or for physical release or pleasure---those would be good
reasons.
I do things for him all the time that I wouldn't chose to do for others
because I love him and I want to do for him. When he was ready, I'd love for
him to join me. But not until then.
A few months after that, I was in the garden picking up pine cones. He joined
me. The next time he helped rake (took HALF the time it would have if only
one of us had been working alone). >We get a lot of talking in then too.<
Since then, if he sees me in the yard (or if I say that I'll be in the yard
working), he'll come out and help. He almost always does dishes that don't
get done the night before (especially if I'm gone in the morning).
I think it's understanding that we ALL have the right to say no. The last
weeks before the conference last fall, I was a basket case and ignored the
house and yard. Both boys and my husband pitched in to a degree they don't
usually. They saw that I NEEDED help. We're a team, partners. But to us that
doesn't mean that we all MUST do certain things; it means we do things we
might not like to do because we want to. It makes a loved one's life easier
or sweeter or cleaner or more beautiful. Because we WANT to.
"Because I said so" is a crappy reason to do ANYthing!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Earthmomma67@... writes:
> BUT! the one who outright refuses is the one that came from a home (Dad's &As a child, I was made to do yard work. I HATED it. Couldn't stand the sight
> Stepmom's) that had required chores, with harsh consequences for not doing
> them. Now that he is given a choice, he has chosen not to help.
> He's De-cleaning. <g>
>
of a rake or a pine cone! I made the decision THEN that I wouldn't require MY
children to do yard work.
After Cameron left school, there was certainly more time for him to "do"
things in the yard: building and painting a fence, planning/planting a
garden, handweeding, raking, mowing, etc. Ben thought I should make him.
I'd ask for help. He's say, "Do I HAVE to?" I'd cheerfully say, "Nope."
A few months passed. One day he asked why I didn't MAKE him do things. All
his friends' parents made them do yardwork. I said that I only wanted him to
help if he WANTED to help. Being MADE to do yardwork would only make him hate
it. Doing it because he liked having a beautiful yard or to relieve me of
some of the labor or for physical release or pleasure---those would be good
reasons.
I do things for him all the time that I wouldn't chose to do for others
because I love him and I want to do for him. When he was ready, I'd love for
him to join me. But not until then.
A few months after that, I was in the garden picking up pine cones. He joined
me. The next time he helped rake (took HALF the time it would have if only
one of us had been working alone). >We get a lot of talking in then too.<
Since then, if he sees me in the yard (or if I say that I'll be in the yard
working), he'll come out and help. He almost always does dishes that don't
get done the night before (especially if I'm gone in the morning).
I think it's understanding that we ALL have the right to say no. The last
weeks before the conference last fall, I was a basket case and ignored the
house and yard. Both boys and my husband pitched in to a degree they don't
usually. They saw that I NEEDED help. We're a team, partners. But to us that
doesn't mean that we all MUST do certain things; it means we do things we
might not like to do because we want to. It makes a loved one's life easier
or sweeter or cleaner or more beautiful. Because we WANT to.
"Because I said so" is a crappy reason to do ANYthing!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/8/03 10:49:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
the younger boys. My mom cooked my food, washed my clothes, cleaned my room
and basically did everything for me. She was the typcial "Mom at home who
does it all" I never liked to clean and I never had to, til I got married.at
the tender age of 18. That was 17 years ago, and I am STILL a terrible
housekeeper.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> "these slobs won't help me achieve any kind of decent livingI dont have that attitude. I am the worst slob of all of them.. INCLUDING
> environment!" out of the equation, and just be one member of the family
> asking others for help with a project,
the younger boys. My mom cooked my food, washed my clothes, cleaned my room
and basically did everything for me. She was the typcial "Mom at home who
does it all" I never liked to clean and I never had to, til I got married.at
the tender age of 18. That was 17 years ago, and I am STILL a terrible
housekeeper.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:09:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:
REALLY, she can do it. Just like anything else. You can do anything you want
to. How bad do you want it? Bad enough to do something about it? Really? Do
it.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> and I am STILL a terribleI truly believe that it's a CHOICE. If someone really WANTS a clean house,
> housekeeper.
>
REALLY, she can do it. Just like anything else. You can do anything you want
to. How bad do you want it? Bad enough to do something about it? Really? Do
it.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I don't believe that this:
no longer had to clean.
My best friends mom was just like yours, Jen never had to lift a finger, not
even put her clothes away. She is the neatest person I know.
I think the key here is:
<< I never liked to clean>>
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> <<My mom cooked my food, washed my clothes, cleaned my roomAlways leads to this:
> and basically did everything for me. She was the typcial "Mom at home who
> >>
>> does it all">>
> << I never liked to clean and I never had to, til I got married.atMy mom cleaned and "expected" me to clean too. I hated it so I stopped when I
> the tender age of 18. That was 17 years ago, and I am STILL a terrible
> housekeeper.>>
>
>
no longer had to clean.
My best friends mom was just like yours, Jen never had to lift a finger, not
even put her clothes away. She is the neatest person I know.
I think the key here is:
<< I never liked to clean>>
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 8:56:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:
housekeeper. My younger sisters had the same mom and they are good
housekeepers.. They think my house is ungodly nasty. But, personally, I
think they keep such clean houses just to please my folks, cause they know my
folks are disappointed in my housekeeping. They really hate it too, but they
do it because they were taught "thats what wives/mothers do" by my mothers
role modeling. And guess what, my oldest son thinks the same thing.. "But,
thats YOUR job, mom" I supposes he has formed a few ideas of his own while
staying over at Grandmas
Teresa
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Earthmomma67@... writes:
> My best friends mom was just like yours, Jen never had to lift a finger, notYeah, I can agree with that.. I could never say exactly WHY I am not a good
>
> even put her clothes away. She is the neatest person I know.
> I think the key here is:
> <<I never liked to clean>>
>
housekeeper. My younger sisters had the same mom and they are good
housekeepers.. They think my house is ungodly nasty. But, personally, I
think they keep such clean houses just to please my folks, cause they know my
folks are disappointed in my housekeeping. They really hate it too, but they
do it because they were taught "thats what wives/mothers do" by my mothers
role modeling. And guess what, my oldest son thinks the same thing.. "But,
thats YOUR job, mom" I supposes he has formed a few ideas of his own while
staying over at Grandmas
Teresa
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:02:48 AM Central Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> And guess what, my oldest son thinks the same thing.. "But,See!? It's an uphill battle.
> thats YOUR job, mom" I supposes he has formed a few ideas of his own while
>
> staying over at Grandmas
>
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85 <[email protected]>
Could it be that he's saying, "But YOU'RE the one who cares about
that, not me?"
Sheila
that, not me?"
Sheila
--- In [email protected], tuckervill@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:02:48 AM Central Standard Time,
grlynbl@a...
> writes:
>
> > And guess what, my oldest son thinks the same thing.. "But,
> > thats YOUR job, mom" I supposes he has formed a few ideas of his
own while
> >
> > staying over at Grandmas
> >
>
> See!? It's an uphill battle.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachel Ann
Okay,
but what do you do about family members who care but aren't willing to do
the work? They don't like the mess but don't pick up the broom because it
isn't their stuff or it isn't their job?
FWIW I am the slob from birth child; messy desk, messy room, disorganized
(but cleaning up makes it harder for me to find stuff...really!) I have
tried fly lady, and frankly...well put her name together to get a different
idea! But someone has to do the work sometimes, or we would have no dishes,
radishes would grow from the floor etc. etc. And we can't afford a cleaning
service.
DH does pitch in, he washes clothes (up to me to put them away.)
Really, I need a felix unger....
I do think kids can pitch in and be asked to pitch in....
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, January 09, 2003 10:36:16
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: More on family life
Could it be that he's saying, "But YOU'RE the one who cares about
that, not me?"
Sheila
but what do you do about family members who care but aren't willing to do
the work? They don't like the mess but don't pick up the broom because it
isn't their stuff or it isn't their job?
FWIW I am the slob from birth child; messy desk, messy room, disorganized
(but cleaning up makes it harder for me to find stuff...really!) I have
tried fly lady, and frankly...well put her name together to get a different
idea! But someone has to do the work sometimes, or we would have no dishes,
radishes would grow from the floor etc. etc. And we can't afford a cleaning
service.
DH does pitch in, he washes clothes (up to me to put them away.)
Really, I need a felix unger....
I do think kids can pitch in and be asked to pitch in....
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, January 09, 2003 10:36:16
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: More on family life
Could it be that he's saying, "But YOU'RE the one who cares about
that, not me?"
Sheila
--- In [email protected], tuckervill@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:02:48 AM Central Standard Time,
grlynbl@a...
> writes:
>
> > And guess what, my oldest son thinks the same thing.. "But,
> > thats YOUR job, mom" I supposes he has formed a few ideas of his
own while
> >
> > staying over at Grandmas
> >
>
> See!? It's an uphill battle.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 6:42:30 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< He's De-cleaning. <g> >>
I love this!!
I think that's really cool that you can see his unwillingness to help as a
reaction to his upbringing and not him being rude or uncaring....that's great!
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< He's De-cleaning. <g> >>
I love this!!
I think that's really cool that you can see his unwillingness to help as a
reaction to his upbringing and not him being rude or uncaring....that's great!
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 10:24:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:
the house it too messy. He wants it clean, and he expects me to do it. He
does keep his own room clean and kinda sorta takes care of HIS dog.. (
maybe40% of the time)..
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Could it be that he's saying, "But YOU'RE the one who cares aboutNo, because he complains to me that he cant bring his friends over because
> that, not me?"
> Sheila
>
the house it too messy. He wants it clean, and he expects me to do it. He
does keep his own room clean and kinda sorta takes care of HIS dog.. (
maybe40% of the time)..
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/8/03 8:49:35 PM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< If I want help with cleaning, I ask for help, and have yet to have either
my
husband or my children say, "No, I won't help you." Sometimes I have to wait
for help, which is reasonable enough if they're in the middle of something
else when I ask. >>
Same here. Sometimes one will say "I'm really not feeling good," as Holly
did yesterday, and her need for juice, a blanket and some mom-comfort were
real. She has a cold. So that was suddenly more important than her helping
me get firewood, or whatever it was. I really don't remember anymore.
Nobody's ever said, "NO, I'm playing a video game, do it yourself." But they
have said "When I get to a saving point."
The more we said yes to our children, the more willing they were to say yes
to us. It worked like please and thank you did!
Sandra
<< If I want help with cleaning, I ask for help, and have yet to have either
my
husband or my children say, "No, I won't help you." Sometimes I have to wait
for help, which is reasonable enough if they're in the middle of something
else when I ask. >>
Same here. Sometimes one will say "I'm really not feeling good," as Holly
did yesterday, and her need for juice, a blanket and some mom-comfort were
real. She has a cold. So that was suddenly more important than her helping
me get firewood, or whatever it was. I really don't remember anymore.
Nobody's ever said, "NO, I'm playing a video game, do it yourself." But they
have said "When I get to a saving point."
The more we said yes to our children, the more willing they were to say yes
to us. It worked like please and thank you did!
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 5:25:37 AM, Earthmomma67@... writes:
<< I have.
BUT! the one who outright refuses is the one that came from a home (Dad's &
Stepmom's) that had required chores, with harsh consequences for not doing
them. Now that he is given a choice, he has chosen not to help. >>
SO they seem to have taught him NOT to clean house unless he was forced to.
Exactly as I suspected!
Too many adults quit reading when they leave school because "now I don't have
to" and they never write again, and they don't care about geography or
science, because they no longer "have to."
School should have proven to us that doing things on schedule for rewards or
punishment don't cause you to appreciate them or do them for good reasons
later.
Sandra
<< I have.
BUT! the one who outright refuses is the one that came from a home (Dad's &
Stepmom's) that had required chores, with harsh consequences for not doing
them. Now that he is given a choice, he has chosen not to help. >>
SO they seem to have taught him NOT to clean house unless he was forced to.
Exactly as I suspected!
Too many adults quit reading when they leave school because "now I don't have
to" and they never write again, and they don't care about geography or
science, because they no longer "have to."
School should have proven to us that doing things on schedule for rewards or
punishment don't cause you to appreciate them or do them for good reasons
later.
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>From: Earthmomma67@...<<My mom cleaned and "expected" me to clean too. I hated it so I stopped
when I no longer had to clean.
My best friends mom was just like yours, Jen never had to lift a finger, not
even put her clothes away. She is the neatest person I know.
I think the key here is:
I never liked to clean>>
I was an only child. My dad owned his own business and when my mom did work,
she taught at the same school I went to. Our hours were always the same.
When I got older, she didn't work. I really didn't have to do much. I was
catered to a lot. I would set the table for 3 and help dry the dishes most
times. I never made my bed or washed or cleaned or cooked. I could sleep as
late as I wanted and my mom would be outside cutting our huge backyard. When
I left home at 18, I lived with 3 other girls. One girl decided to be the
cook as she had been doing do for her mom and younger sister all her life.
She was an awful cook and I figured I couldn't do any worse. I asked if I
could try and took over from there. I ran that apt. like a captain. Our apt.
was always clean and we at better than everyone else. Most days I was
cooking for 6-8 people. (I was going to a tech school)
Never looked back and now I'm a cleaning freak. It's one of the things I do
best. Never had to do it when I was young and now it's like a life's
mission.
Mary B
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 6:32:56 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< I truly believe that it's a CHOICE. If someone really WANTS a clean house,
REALLY, she can do it. Just like anything else. You can do anything you want
to. How bad do you want it? >>
Bad enough to alienate your children and husband to get them to do it?
I had a friend whose room was always clean. Her mom used to spank (whip?)
her with an extension cord each week if it wasn't done up to the mother's
specifications. Even though my mom rarely made me do things I wasn't willing
to do, I had more secondary trauma from DiAna's mom's attitude about
cleanliness than any kid ought to have. I was afraid to sit on the bed in
that room. Mostly, DiAna would come to MY house to hang out. Where the bed
might not even be made.
And I personally would rather have my kids' friends come over here than to
make my own kids feel unwelcome.
This is stream of consciousness and not directed at anyone on this list.
Sandra
<< I truly believe that it's a CHOICE. If someone really WANTS a clean house,
REALLY, she can do it. Just like anything else. You can do anything you want
to. How bad do you want it? >>
Bad enough to alienate your children and husband to get them to do it?
I had a friend whose room was always clean. Her mom used to spank (whip?)
her with an extension cord each week if it wasn't done up to the mother's
specifications. Even though my mom rarely made me do things I wasn't willing
to do, I had more secondary trauma from DiAna's mom's attitude about
cleanliness than any kid ought to have. I was afraid to sit on the bed in
that room. Mostly, DiAna would come to MY house to hang out. Where the bed
might not even be made.
And I personally would rather have my kids' friends come over here than to
make my own kids feel unwelcome.
This is stream of consciousness and not directed at anyone on this list.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 11:38:47 AM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< when I no longer had to clean.
My best friends mom was just like yours, Jen never had to lift a finger, not
even put her clothes away. She is the neatest person I know. >>
Chris Krohn's mother put his clean and folded clothes in his drawers for him.
Even when he was a teen, though, he would wax his mother's car---REALLY wax
her car--because he wanted to. He would do heavy yardwork for her without
being asked. He would ask if there was anything he could do, because he felt
indebted and she never made him do anything.
He is THE most organized male adult I know. He is organized, artistic,
efficient...
AND he's heterosexual! (For those of you who already thought, "uh, huh...
it's estrogen!")
He married Pati who was once my roommate. She was the WORST sloppy roommate
I ever, ever had. And one of the few sloppier than I am. But when she had
her own place she was making full payments on, something snapped and she
became really tidy. Like housekeeping became her hobby.
She married Chris and they have the cleanest cars and house of any couple I
know.
No children; that helps.
Sandra
<< when I no longer had to clean.
My best friends mom was just like yours, Jen never had to lift a finger, not
even put her clothes away. She is the neatest person I know. >>
Chris Krohn's mother put his clean and folded clothes in his drawers for him.
Even when he was a teen, though, he would wax his mother's car---REALLY wax
her car--because he wanted to. He would do heavy yardwork for her without
being asked. He would ask if there was anything he could do, because he felt
indebted and she never made him do anything.
He is THE most organized male adult I know. He is organized, artistic,
efficient...
AND he's heterosexual! (For those of you who already thought, "uh, huh...
it's estrogen!")
He married Pati who was once my roommate. She was the WORST sloppy roommate
I ever, ever had. And one of the few sloppier than I am. But when she had
her own place she was making full payments on, something snapped and she
became really tidy. Like housekeeping became her hobby.
She married Chris and they have the cleanest cars and house of any couple I
know.
No children; that helps.
Sandra