Rebellion
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
First of all, I LOVE this list!! I feel like I just found the gals I
started this parenting journey with. My husband and I lived in
Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting and
only knew two sources for those life skills--our intuition and a
few books sent to me written by Dr. Sears and LLL. I thought the
whole world parented that way! What a shock to return to the
states find out that the Ezzos had influenced every one of my
friends from college... Argh!
My husband and I have also been through our share of therapy
and I vowed to listen to our kids and tuck away $25.00 depostis
each time we damaged them against the day they'd need that
insurance for thearpy to get over us. :) We used to say, "We don't
save for college. We save for their therapy."
Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being). The typical
comments from those who know us about not setting limits (we
have set some, but compared to all who know us, we're the
liberal, loosey-goosey ones) is that we're inviting rebellion.
Ironically, if there are no rules against which to rebel, I don't
know how there could be rebellion. I suppose they mean that our
kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.
Many of the mothers I know feel that they must set guidelines for
behavior so that their kids will be conditioned to understand
certain values. Yet one of my daughter's best friends (who is in
the most restrictive home we know) tried to kill herself last year
and is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
living with a boyfriend).
Ironically, just since Monday when we shared our changed view
of things with our kids, I've already encountered doubts in my
own kids. They worry that they will make bad decisions for
themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
this "new thing would really work." They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.
This floored me.
My 13 dd said, "Can we listen to Eminem?" I said that I would
like to listen to it with her, if she's interested so we can talk
about it. She freaked, "Mom, you're my mother. Just say no. You
can say no to me. How can I ever rebel against you if you set no
rules? I'm going to call you Mrs. Bogart."
We've since talked more about it, but I have to admit that I was
surprised that inside she had this picture of individuating
through some kind of rebellion. I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?
What do you think?
Julie B
started this parenting journey with. My husband and I lived in
Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting and
only knew two sources for those life skills--our intuition and a
few books sent to me written by Dr. Sears and LLL. I thought the
whole world parented that way! What a shock to return to the
states find out that the Ezzos had influenced every one of my
friends from college... Argh!
My husband and I have also been through our share of therapy
and I vowed to listen to our kids and tuck away $25.00 depostis
each time we damaged them against the day they'd need that
insurance for thearpy to get over us. :) We used to say, "We don't
save for college. We save for their therapy."
Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being). The typical
comments from those who know us about not setting limits (we
have set some, but compared to all who know us, we're the
liberal, loosey-goosey ones) is that we're inviting rebellion.
Ironically, if there are no rules against which to rebel, I don't
know how there could be rebellion. I suppose they mean that our
kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.
Many of the mothers I know feel that they must set guidelines for
behavior so that their kids will be conditioned to understand
certain values. Yet one of my daughter's best friends (who is in
the most restrictive home we know) tried to kill herself last year
and is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
living with a boyfriend).
Ironically, just since Monday when we shared our changed view
of things with our kids, I've already encountered doubts in my
own kids. They worry that they will make bad decisions for
themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
this "new thing would really work." They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.
This floored me.
My 13 dd said, "Can we listen to Eminem?" I said that I would
like to listen to it with her, if she's interested so we can talk
about it. She freaked, "Mom, you're my mother. Just say no. You
can say no to me. How can I ever rebel against you if you set no
rules? I'm going to call you Mrs. Bogart."
We've since talked more about it, but I have to admit that I was
surprised that inside she had this picture of individuating
through some kind of rebellion. I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?
What do you think?
Julie B
Kelli Traaseth
"Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...> wrote:
**I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?**
I think too that so much of society just believes that that is what teenagers are supposed to do, and most have those rules so it follows naturally,
I think Living Joyfully with Children addressed this really well, in the chapter 'Don't Plant Those Weeds', they have several parenting choices that could lead to a rebellious child. But as far as I can see and understand, the changes that you are making and so many of us are attempting to do will hopefully alliviate that from happening,
and..from what I've heard from unschooling families with older children... it is working!!
** We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being).**
Ditto for us, and this is what I am really struggling with right now, I feel very alone and isolated, except on this list,
but I do feel like what we (my fam)are doing is the right thing and am feeling stronger and stronger about it all the time.
Kelli
First of all, I LOVE this list!! I feel like I just found the gals I
started this parenting journey with. My husband and I lived in
Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting and
only knew two sources for those life skills--our intuition and a
few books sent to me written by Dr. Sears and LLL. I thought the
whole world parented that way! What a shock to return to the
states find out that the Ezzos had influenced every one of my
friends from college... Argh!
My husband and I have also been through our share of therapy
and I vowed to listen to our kids and tuck away $25.00 depostis
each time we damaged them against the day they'd need that
insurance for thearpy to get over us. :) We used to say, "We don't
save for college. We save for their therapy."
Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being). The typical
comments from those who know us about not setting limits (we
have set some, but compared to all who know us, we're the
liberal, loosey-goosey ones) is that we're inviting rebellion.
Ironically, if there are no rules against which to rebel, I don't
know how there could be rebellion. I suppose they mean that our
kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.
Many of the mothers I know feel that they must set guidelines for
behavior so that their kids will be conditioned to understand
certain values. Yet one of my daughter's best friends (who is in
the most restrictive home we know) tried to kill herself last year
and is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
living with a boyfriend).
Ironically, just since Monday when we shared our changed view
of things with our kids, I've already encountered doubts in my
own kids. They worry that they will make bad decisions for
themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
this "new thing would really work." They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.
This floored me.
My 13 dd said, "Can we listen to Eminem?" I said that I would
like to listen to it with her, if she's interested so we can talk
about it. She freaked, "Mom, you're my mother. Just say no. You
can say no to me. How can I ever rebel against you if you set no
rules? I'm going to call you Mrs. Bogart."
We've since talked more about it, but I have to admit that I was
surprised that inside she had this picture of individuating
through some kind of rebellion. I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?
What do you think?
Julie B
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
**I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?**
I think too that so much of society just believes that that is what teenagers are supposed to do, and most have those rules so it follows naturally,
I think Living Joyfully with Children addressed this really well, in the chapter 'Don't Plant Those Weeds', they have several parenting choices that could lead to a rebellious child. But as far as I can see and understand, the changes that you are making and so many of us are attempting to do will hopefully alliviate that from happening,
and..from what I've heard from unschooling families with older children... it is working!!
** We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being).**
Ditto for us, and this is what I am really struggling with right now, I feel very alone and isolated, except on this list,
but I do feel like what we (my fam)are doing is the right thing and am feeling stronger and stronger about it all the time.
Kelli
First of all, I LOVE this list!! I feel like I just found the gals I
started this parenting journey with. My husband and I lived in
Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting and
only knew two sources for those life skills--our intuition and a
few books sent to me written by Dr. Sears and LLL. I thought the
whole world parented that way! What a shock to return to the
states find out that the Ezzos had influenced every one of my
friends from college... Argh!
My husband and I have also been through our share of therapy
and I vowed to listen to our kids and tuck away $25.00 depostis
each time we damaged them against the day they'd need that
insurance for thearpy to get over us. :) We used to say, "We don't
save for college. We save for their therapy."
Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being). The typical
comments from those who know us about not setting limits (we
have set some, but compared to all who know us, we're the
liberal, loosey-goosey ones) is that we're inviting rebellion.
Ironically, if there are no rules against which to rebel, I don't
know how there could be rebellion. I suppose they mean that our
kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.
Many of the mothers I know feel that they must set guidelines for
behavior so that their kids will be conditioned to understand
certain values. Yet one of my daughter's best friends (who is in
the most restrictive home we know) tried to kill herself last year
and is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
living with a boyfriend).
Ironically, just since Monday when we shared our changed view
of things with our kids, I've already encountered doubts in my
own kids. They worry that they will make bad decisions for
themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
this "new thing would really work." They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.
This floored me.
My 13 dd said, "Can we listen to Eminem?" I said that I would
like to listen to it with her, if she's interested so we can talk
about it. She freaked, "Mom, you're my mother. Just say no. You
can say no to me. How can I ever rebel against you if you set no
rules? I'm going to call you Mrs. Bogart."
We've since talked more about it, but I have to admit that I was
surprised that inside she had this picture of individuating
through some kind of rebellion. I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?
What do you think?
Julie B
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
Changing theological beliefs: Here too. Over the past two years I have *really* changed what I believe, and it has opened up a whole new and peaceful world.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelli Traaseth
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Rebellion
"Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...> wrote:
**I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?**
I think too that so much of society just believes that that is what teenagers are supposed to do, and most have those rules so it follows naturally,
I think Living Joyfully with Children addressed this really well, in the chapter 'Don't Plant Those Weeds', they have several parenting choices that could lead to a rebellious child. But as far as I can see and understand, the changes that you are making and so many of us are attempting to do will hopefully alliviate that from happening,
and..from what I've heard from unschooling families with older children... it is working!!
** We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being).**
Ditto for us, and this is what I am really struggling with right now, I feel very alone and isolated, except on this list,
but I do feel like what we (my fam)are doing is the right thing and am feeling stronger and stronger about it all the time.
Kelli
First of all, I LOVE this list!! I feel like I just found the gals I
started this parenting journey with. My husband and I lived in
Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting and
only knew two sources for those life skills--our intuition and a
few books sent to me written by Dr. Sears and LLL. I thought the
whole world parented that way! What a shock to return to the
states find out that the Ezzos had influenced every one of my
friends from college... Argh!
My husband and I have also been through our share of therapy
and I vowed to listen to our kids and tuck away $25.00 depostis
each time we damaged them against the day they'd need that
insurance for thearpy to get over us. :) We used to say, "We don't
save for college. We save for their therapy."
Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being). The typical
comments from those who know us about not setting limits (we
have set some, but compared to all who know us, we're the
liberal, loosey-goosey ones) is that we're inviting rebellion.
Ironically, if there are no rules against which to rebel, I don't
know how there could be rebellion. I suppose they mean that our
kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.
Many of the mothers I know feel that they must set guidelines for
behavior so that their kids will be conditioned to understand
certain values. Yet one of my daughter's best friends (who is in
the most restrictive home we know) tried to kill herself last year
and is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
living with a boyfriend).
Ironically, just since Monday when we shared our changed view
of things with our kids, I've already encountered doubts in my
own kids. They worry that they will make bad decisions for
themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
this "new thing would really work." They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.
This floored me.
My 13 dd said, "Can we listen to Eminem?" I said that I would
like to listen to it with her, if she's interested so we can talk
about it. She freaked, "Mom, you're my mother. Just say no. You
can say no to me. How can I ever rebel against you if you set no
rules? I'm going to call you Mrs. Bogart."
We've since talked more about it, but I have to admit that I was
surprised that inside she had this picture of individuating
through some kind of rebellion. I wonder now if the very
guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?
What do you think?
Julie B
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/8/03 12:59:58 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being). >>
Me too.
I was raised in a very legalistic, cultish, fundi church.....it still
pervades my thoughts in certain aspects. I questioned things for years, but
was only able to break away a couple years ago....completely and totally only
one year ago.
So I understand some of that territory and sympathize completely!!
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
accurately, who we used to be and liked being). >>
Me too.
I was raised in a very legalistic, cultish, fundi church.....it still
pervades my thoughts in certain aspects. I questioned things for years, but
was only able to break away a couple years ago....completely and totally only
one year ago.
So I understand some of that territory and sympathize completely!!
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/8/03 11:34:41 AM, julie@... writes:
<< My husband and I lived in
Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting >>
Holly has a Morocco fascination. She's not sure why.
<<We used to say, "We don't
save for college. We save for their therapy.">>
When the kids were really young, we used to tell people we were saving money
for Kirby's college, and Marty's bail and lawyers. But we shut up because
not only was it tacky, but Marty SEEMED rambunctious, but he has never been
hurt and never in trouble (although policeman did tell him and his friend
once to stop messing with the newspaper boxes--they were just trying them all
to see if any would open).
<<...inviting rebellion. Ironically, if there are no rules against which to
rebel, I don't
know how there could be rebellion. >>
Isn't it the darnedest thing? All that eastern philosophy about not
resisting makes sense once a person stops holding his breath and resisting
everything.
I grew up Baptist. That says it.
<<I suppose they mean that our
kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.>>
I've had other homeschoolers over the years ask me those questions which
shine a spotlight on THEIR beliefs, such as these souvenirs:
"If you don't raise your children in a church, how will they learn right from
wrong?"
"Without a belief in God [by which they clearly meant a belief in hell] why
would your children ever mind you?"
I remember feeling that way, long ago--that there were Christians (and good
members of other religions) and then there were "the others," who would as
soon stick a knife in a guy as not. Why wouldn't they? They were Godless
heathens and SINNERS.
<<...is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
living with a boyfriend).>>
Our best in-home example is make-up. I wasn't allowed to wear make-up before
fifteen. When I was fifteen, I started wearing it even though I didn't like
it and didn't want to, but I had waited so long. I quit not long after. <g>
But I knew other girls who would no more go out without false eyelashes and
$2 worth of STUFF than they'd go out nekkid, because they had by god EARNED
that "right," and they were not going back to being the (tortured) little
girls they had been.
The other night we were at a folk-singing party and Holly sang along with
some fairly mature thing, I forget what (maybe from Paint Your Wagon), just
as we were going home and the folky part was over, but the silly wild
late-night singing wasn't. Someone my age commented on Holly know those
lyrics. I said, "HEY, she knows Rocky Horror Picture Show and the South Park
movie too." They laughed and said she shouldn't sing them in public or the
county would come and talk to me, but they weren't really offended, because
they've known Holly her own life and she's pretty cool.
Yesterday Holly had a tentative invite for a day at the mall with a sixteen
year old friend and a friend Holly's age she hasn't seen for over a year.
She said, "Rainelle's turning twelve soon, and I can tell her 'Now you can
watch Rocky Horror Picture Show.'" Holly said Rainelle's mom said she
couldn't watch it until she was twelve.
So...
Holly has watched it before it could possibly have any meaning or shock
value, and knows lots of the songs. Rainelle has waited anxiously (when she
thought about it) and will see it when she's already coming into some sexual
thought. It will be something she will probably NOT walk away from, but she
will study it in detail to find EVERY BIT of what was forbidden to her.
I like our way better.
I've always figured those people whose parents base their lives around
avoiding any information about evolution will have the ONLY kids who really
read Darwin. Other kids won't care nearly as much what's in there, because
they suffered no deprivation, special schools, political action,
HOMESCHOOLING AGAINST THEIR WILL (I just realized the current worst
anti-Darwin effect) and will eventually want to know what was SO HORRIBLE.
<<hey worry that they will make bad decisions for
themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
this "new thing would really work." >>
Tell them the decisions only have to be by the moment, not by the year.
It's like walking along a path, not like buying a ticket to Mars.
<<They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.>>
You could remind them they'll be right there with you, not left to themselves.
Sounds like they're picturing being cast away alone in the middle of
uncharted nowhere, instead of warm and safe at home.
<<Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?>>
No, just out of generations of bad habits and the whatever-all goes with
fraternity hazing and gang initiations. If a man had to suffer through his
dad shaming and limiting and whipping and threatening and grounding him to
"be a man," why should his son get to be a man without going through the same
painful "transition" (hazing/initiation)? That's my theory.
Sandra
<< My husband and I lived in
Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting >>
Holly has a Morocco fascination. She's not sure why.
<<We used to say, "We don't
save for college. We save for their therapy.">>
When the kids were really young, we used to tell people we were saving money
for Kirby's college, and Marty's bail and lawyers. But we shut up because
not only was it tacky, but Marty SEEMED rambunctious, but he has never been
hurt and never in trouble (although policeman did tell him and his friend
once to stop messing with the newspaper boxes--they were just trying them all
to see if any would open).
<<...inviting rebellion. Ironically, if there are no rules against which to
rebel, I don't
know how there could be rebellion. >>
Isn't it the darnedest thing? All that eastern philosophy about not
resisting makes sense once a person stops holding his breath and resisting
everything.
I grew up Baptist. That says it.
<<I suppose they mean that our
kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.>>
I've had other homeschoolers over the years ask me those questions which
shine a spotlight on THEIR beliefs, such as these souvenirs:
"If you don't raise your children in a church, how will they learn right from
wrong?"
"Without a belief in God [by which they clearly meant a belief in hell] why
would your children ever mind you?"
I remember feeling that way, long ago--that there were Christians (and good
members of other religions) and then there were "the others," who would as
soon stick a knife in a guy as not. Why wouldn't they? They were Godless
heathens and SINNERS.
<<...is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
living with a boyfriend).>>
Our best in-home example is make-up. I wasn't allowed to wear make-up before
fifteen. When I was fifteen, I started wearing it even though I didn't like
it and didn't want to, but I had waited so long. I quit not long after. <g>
But I knew other girls who would no more go out without false eyelashes and
$2 worth of STUFF than they'd go out nekkid, because they had by god EARNED
that "right," and they were not going back to being the (tortured) little
girls they had been.
The other night we were at a folk-singing party and Holly sang along with
some fairly mature thing, I forget what (maybe from Paint Your Wagon), just
as we were going home and the folky part was over, but the silly wild
late-night singing wasn't. Someone my age commented on Holly know those
lyrics. I said, "HEY, she knows Rocky Horror Picture Show and the South Park
movie too." They laughed and said she shouldn't sing them in public or the
county would come and talk to me, but they weren't really offended, because
they've known Holly her own life and she's pretty cool.
Yesterday Holly had a tentative invite for a day at the mall with a sixteen
year old friend and a friend Holly's age she hasn't seen for over a year.
She said, "Rainelle's turning twelve soon, and I can tell her 'Now you can
watch Rocky Horror Picture Show.'" Holly said Rainelle's mom said she
couldn't watch it until she was twelve.
So...
Holly has watched it before it could possibly have any meaning or shock
value, and knows lots of the songs. Rainelle has waited anxiously (when she
thought about it) and will see it when she's already coming into some sexual
thought. It will be something she will probably NOT walk away from, but she
will study it in detail to find EVERY BIT of what was forbidden to her.
I like our way better.
I've always figured those people whose parents base their lives around
avoiding any information about evolution will have the ONLY kids who really
read Darwin. Other kids won't care nearly as much what's in there, because
they suffered no deprivation, special schools, political action,
HOMESCHOOLING AGAINST THEIR WILL (I just realized the current worst
anti-Darwin effect) and will eventually want to know what was SO HORRIBLE.
<<hey worry that they will make bad decisions for
themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
this "new thing would really work." >>
Tell them the decisions only have to be by the moment, not by the year.
It's like walking along a path, not like buying a ticket to Mars.
<<They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.>>
You could remind them they'll be right there with you, not left to themselves.
Sounds like they're picturing being cast away alone in the middle of
uncharted nowhere, instead of warm and safe at home.
<<Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
scuplt who they are and what they value?>>
No, just out of generations of bad habits and the whatever-all goes with
fraternity hazing and gang initiations. If a man had to suffer through his
dad shaming and limiting and whipping and threatening and grounding him to
"be a man," why should his son get to be a man without going through the same
painful "transition" (hazing/initiation)? That's my theory.
Sandra
Gerard Westenberg
<<Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to scuplt who they are and what they value>>
Yes, oh, yes - at least that was the case here, for awhile..I am a Christian - a Catholic actually. Dh and I went through a time of "trying" to fit the more conservative elements of Catholicism- and this was the one an only time we had difficult relatoinships/angst with our older kids...When we stopped, and thought, and went back to Catholcism without feeling we have to be copy cat catholics - well, our relationships with our teens, and with our younger ones, returned to connecting, discussing, win-win...Leonie W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, oh, yes - at least that was the case here, for awhile..I am a Christian - a Catholic actually. Dh and I went through a time of "trying" to fit the more conservative elements of Catholicism- and this was the one an only time we had difficult relatoinships/angst with our older kids...When we stopped, and thought, and went back to Catholcism without feeling we have to be copy cat catholics - well, our relationships with our teens, and with our younger ones, returned to connecting, discussing, win-win...Leonie W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gerard Westenberg
<<They worried that they would
make bad choices if left to themselves.>>
<<You could remind them they'll be right there with you, not left to themselves.>>
And also remind them of the good choices they have already made , in their lives so far...One of mine felt he needed more physical exercise, so turned off the PS and went to run and play outside. He listened to his needs and made a good choice...Point out decisions like this, choices made that have been positive, to your dc...Leonoe W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
make bad choices if left to themselves.>>
<<You could remind them they'll be right there with you, not left to themselves.>>
And also remind them of the good choices they have already made , in their lives so far...One of mine felt he needed more physical exercise, so turned off the PS and went to run and play outside. He listened to his needs and made a good choice...Point out decisions like this, choices made that have been positive, to your dc...Leonoe W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gerard Westenberg
P.S. Sorry about all the typos - I had two eye operations before Xmas, and my spellcheck on email doesn't work - and I am a TERRIBLE typist! lol!...Leonie W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mciburton <[email protected]>
Hi,
I am new to this list and thank Shyrley infinitely for repeatedly
reminding me about it. I am not new to homeschooling though have done
so since my 13 yo was technicaly(sp?) old enough for school and am
also grateful to AOL's homeschool boards (back in the days) which kept
me from throwing in the towel when all I could find here in Northern
Virginia were homeschool groups affiliated with a church which ya had
to join to meet others....boo. My dh and I too say we are saving for
our kids therapy.
Anyhoo, just to let you all know MY NOBLE opinion <G>: I find myself
frequently reading about, and remembering anthropology classes,
mentioning "rites of passage". My son is in Boy Scouts and though
several people I know question and even strongly object to his being
in it, both my husband and I feel that it offers that "rite of
passage" that is lacking in our society. There is no fraternity hazing
where they drink too much and are left for dead or dive into a 8 inch
deep floor of water after chugging a fifth of vodka (the latter
happened at my college). Instead in the best case, they are carefully
trained and then tested in a manner that can be a rite of passage. The
tests are swimming, camping, living outdoors, etc.
I could say more but that seems to be enough for an intro.
thanks for the list.
Cia
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart <julie@b...>"
<julie@b...> wrote:
I am new to this list and thank Shyrley infinitely for repeatedly
reminding me about it. I am not new to homeschooling though have done
so since my 13 yo was technicaly(sp?) old enough for school and am
also grateful to AOL's homeschool boards (back in the days) which kept
me from throwing in the towel when all I could find here in Northern
Virginia were homeschool groups affiliated with a church which ya had
to join to meet others....boo. My dh and I too say we are saving for
our kids therapy.
Anyhoo, just to let you all know MY NOBLE opinion <G>: I find myself
frequently reading about, and remembering anthropology classes,
mentioning "rites of passage". My son is in Boy Scouts and though
several people I know question and even strongly object to his being
in it, both my husband and I feel that it offers that "rite of
passage" that is lacking in our society. There is no fraternity hazing
where they drink too much and are left for dead or dive into a 8 inch
deep floor of water after chugging a fifth of vodka (the latter
happened at my college). Instead in the best case, they are carefully
trained and then tested in a manner that can be a rite of passage. The
tests are swimming, camping, living outdoors, etc.
I could say more but that seems to be enough for an intro.
thanks for the list.
Cia
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart <julie@b...>"
<julie@b...> wrote:
> First of all, I LOVE this list!! I feel like I just found the gals I
> started this parenting journey with. My husband and I lived in
> Morocco as missionaries during our early years of parenting and
> only knew two sources for those life skills--our intuition and a
> few books sent to me written by Dr. Sears and LLL. I thought the
> whole world parented that way! What a shock to return to the
> states find out that the Ezzos had influenced every one of my
> friends from college... Argh!
>
> My husband and I have also been through our share of therapy
> and I vowed to listen to our kids and tuck away $25.00 depostis
> each time we damaged them against the day they'd need that
> insurance for thearpy to get over us. :) We used to say, "We don't
> save for college. We save for their therapy."
>
> Anyway, Jon and I have been in the conservative Christian world
> for the last twenty years. We have gone through a significant shift
> in our theological beliefs (are currently churchless) and find that
> that world no longer matches who we've become (or more
> accurately, who we used to be and liked being). The typical
> comments from those who know us about not setting limits (we
> have set some, but compared to all who know us, we're the
> liberal, loosey-goosey ones) is that we're inviting rebellion.
> Ironically, if there are no rules against which to rebel, I don't
> know how there could be rebellion. I suppose they mean that our
> kids will slide into irretrievable immorality.
>
> Many of the mothers I know feel that they must set guidelines for
> behavior so that their kids will be conditioned to understand
> certain values. Yet one of my daughter's best friends (who is in
> the most restrictive home we know) tried to kill herself last year
> and is now plotting all the things she will do to herself once she
> is 18 (from listening to rap, to piercing ever possible body part to
> living with a boyfriend).
>
> Ironically, just since Monday when we shared our changed view
> of things with our kids, I've already encountered doubts in my
> own kids. They worry that they will make bad decisions for
> themselves. A couple of them said to me that they wondered if
> this "new thing would really work." They worried that they would
> make bad choices if left to themselves.
>
> This floored me.
>
> My 13 dd said, "Can we listen to Eminem?" I said that I would
> like to listen to it with her, if she's interested so we can talk
> about it. She freaked, "Mom, you're my mother. Just say no. You
> can say no to me. How can I ever rebel against you if you set no
> rules? I'm going to call you Mrs. Bogart."
>
> We've since talked more about it, but I have to admit that I was
> surprised that inside she had this picture of individuating
> through some kind of rebellion. I wonder now if the very
> guidelines parents set for their kids predispose them to think in
> terms of rebelling for the sake of individual growth rather than a
> natural process of personal discernment that evolves as the
> child ages. Have we bred rebellion into teen life in an effort to
> scuplt who they are and what they value?
>
> What do you think?
>
> Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 11:30:35 PM, mciburton@... writes:
<< I am new to this list >>
mciburton@...
I looked at those two things, and thought, "NO, very familiar."
Cia! VERY FAMILIAR!
::whispering::
This is not as good as AOL's homeschooling glory-days were, but I don't think
anything ever will be.
Sandra
<< I am new to this list >>
mciburton@...
I looked at those two things, and thought, "NO, very familiar."
Cia! VERY FAMILIAR!
::whispering::
This is not as good as AOL's homeschooling glory-days were, but I don't think
anything ever will be.
Sandra
One of the Wechts
My DS rebelled at 5! (maybe earlier). He rebelled against authoritative parenting, and teachers who did not respect their students.
Good for him!
It took years for me to get it. I am sad and I have apologized about this. He is now 17 ( out of the system for 5 years ) with freedom to choose his own path, and to hang with kids and adults who respect each other.
My very complacent, easy going 13 yos began calling me on few things recently. It took me by surprise.
It was usually something simple. Can't remember exactly what now. Maybe just a tone of mine. It ruffled my feathers.
Then I realized. Good for him! And I apologized. I had worried that he was too much a pleaser. He will be fine!
My then 5yod changed personalities when she went to kindergarten. She became subdued.
She is 10 and free now (K was her first and last year).
She rebels against anyone who tries to "do it for her", or "teach her" or make her "perform". Good for her!
Our journey stared with eclectic homeschooling and evolved quickly.
I found respectful parenting and unschooling just naturally flowed together.
Good for me! Good for our family!
Beth unschooling fan in MD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good for him!
It took years for me to get it. I am sad and I have apologized about this. He is now 17 ( out of the system for 5 years ) with freedom to choose his own path, and to hang with kids and adults who respect each other.
My very complacent, easy going 13 yos began calling me on few things recently. It took me by surprise.
It was usually something simple. Can't remember exactly what now. Maybe just a tone of mine. It ruffled my feathers.
Then I realized. Good for him! And I apologized. I had worried that he was too much a pleaser. He will be fine!
My then 5yod changed personalities when she went to kindergarten. She became subdued.
She is 10 and free now (K was her first and last year).
She rebels against anyone who tries to "do it for her", or "teach her" or make her "perform". Good for her!
Our journey stared with eclectic homeschooling and evolved quickly.
I found respectful parenting and unschooling just naturally flowed together.
Good for me! Good for our family!
Beth unschooling fan in MD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]