The O'Donnells

I have been enjoying the sharing and structure conversations a lot of
recent. But they have brought up a question for me. We often are quick to
decide that parents are controlling. Yet, I have a child that loves to be
controlling in nearly everything. I'm not sure what has happened to make
her this way but she seems to really need to control things around her.
Everything, from what she learns (which I count as a good thing) to who
holds the book someone is reading (which drives me nuts and provides lots
of opportunities to keep the sibling rivalry going with her younger
sister.) This seems a little odd to me as she is nearly 11 and I see no
real signs of her lightening up. Any input to this issue?


In His Service,

Laraine
praxis@...
ICQ # 25529560
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

Susan and Theodore

That IS my daughter and she is almost 11 as well!
I find that when she gets the most controlling is when she needs some MOM
time!
She gets frustrated being the oldest and as hard as I try she still feels
this great responsibility for things. I think that she needs to "control"
the environment in her way to make it work for her....I know that I do this
also, as I feel it needs to be my way at times or it does not work at ALL!
I am sure that it does and I have found that on many occasions it does--I am
sure that I passed down this wonderful trait, but we both try to get around
this genetic flaw and find some other outlet for our need to control---11 is
scary also---It seems as if her hormones are beginning to flow and I am sure
that I need to spend some more time with her (as I am sure that some
questions are arising--she has all the answers, but I think the questions
are more "REAL" now that she is getting older and understanding the world
around her some more)
SOSusan....going to talk with her tonight and smooth out some wrinkleys
----- Original Message -----
From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 11:53 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Control


> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
>
> I have been enjoying the sharing and structure conversations a lot of
> recent. But they have brought up a question for me. We often are quick
to
> decide that parents are controlling. Yet, I have a child that loves to be
> controlling in nearly everything. I'm not sure what has happened to make
> her this way but she seems to really need to control things around her.
> Everything, from what she learns (which I count as a good thing) to who
> holds the book someone is reading (which drives me nuts and provides lots
> of opportunities to keep the sibling rivalry going with her younger
> sister.) This seems a little odd to me as she is nearly 11 and I see no
> real signs of her lightening up. Any input to this issue?
>
>
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine
> praxis@...
> ICQ # 25529560
> Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Thad Martin

hi,

our family has this same genetic flaw, lol, though my son is 4, he is as you
describe (though i still have hope for him:) and i think at this age it's
somewhat 'age appropriate'. though for older kids i think you're right in
what you said, my sister has a 12 year old daughter and she is this way as
well. about 2 years age she started riding horses and i think this has really
given her an outlet for this need.

-susan
austin,tx

Susan and Theodore wrote:

> From: "Susan and Theodore" <Stuff@...>
>
> That IS my daughter and she is almost 11 as well!
> I find that when she gets the most controlling is when she needs some MOM
> time!
> She gets frustrated being the oldest and as hard as I try she still feels
> this great responsibility for things. I think that she needs to "control"
> the environment in her way to make it work for her....I know that I do this
> also, as I feel it needs to be my way at times or it does not work at ALL!
> I am sure that it does and I have found that on many occasions it does--I am
> sure that I passed down this wonderful trait, but we both try to get around
> this genetic flaw and find some other outlet for our need to control---11 is
> scary also---It seems as if her hormones are beginning to flow and I am sure
> that I need to spend some more time with her (as I am sure that some
> questions are arising--she has all the answers, but I think the questions
> are more "REAL" now that she is getting older and understanding the world
> around her some more)
> SOSusan....going to talk with her tonight and smooth out some wrinkleys
>

Sandi Myers

> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
This seems a little odd to me as she is nearly 11 and I see no
> real signs of her lightening up. Any input to this issue?
>
>
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine
> praxis@...

Laraine,

My 11-year old granddaughter has always needed to be in control and has
managed to quite well with doing attractive things, so the other kids are
drawn to it, and taking care of all things, so they naturally come to her.
She is the oldest of 12 cousins who get together frequently--they are 11, 9,
8, 7, 7, 6, 4, 3, 2, 2, 2, and 6 months. She is able to play, guide the
play, watch over the littlies, and still take breaks to come in and join in
the adult conversation, something which has become very important to her
these last few months. We have all recognized her strong personality all
her life and only ask that she do things in a positive manner and that she
take responsibility for what she is choosing to do--no martyrdom allowed.
(No, she does not have to take care of the "babies" ALL the time, but if she
is choosing to, she needs to correct and redirect them in a positive way;
No, she does not have to feed ALL the animals, someone else will do it if
she does not want to, however, she is not going to be able to harass them
til they do).

My situation is probably quite different from yours. I am having to remind
myself to "let" her help me, or even ask for her help, when doing things
like cooking and setting up the meal. I think I integrated my own children
into being an equal part of all that was done in the house, kitchen, etc.,
much sooner and easier that I am with my grands. I find myself doing it
easily enough when only one or two are here, but still a little overwhelmed
when needing to quickly feed 11 (the littlest is still just nursing!). In
short, she is much faster and more efficient than I am now and seems to need
the recognition of her ability. So I am in the process of consulting her
first (and the others as they come forth and are interested) now when meal
planning, day planning, etc.

These kids are all in homeschooling families. It is so nice to be able to
be a part of their day-to-day lives and watch them grow. However,
grandparenting does present as many challenges as parenting did/does. I am
certainly enjoying the discussions and relating them to the ones I know and
love.

Sandi
>

sara woodall

I have a child that loves to be
controlling in nearly everything.

Is she a first-born?

Sara

Susan and Theodore

Yes that is a great idea (horse back riding)
Do you mean she did something just for the 12 year old?
as in the other kids were not old enough or had other interests?
Maybe that is something she needs...at times I do not feel that I am there enough for her and maybe it is time to let loose a little?
SOSusan
yeah I like that idea...horses!
----- Original Message -----
From: Thad Martin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Control


hi,
our family has this same genetic flaw, lol, though my son is 4, he is as you describe (though i still have hope for him:) and i think at this age it's somewhat 'age appropriate'. though for older kids i think you're right in what you said, my sister has a 12 year old daughter and she is this way as well. about 2 years age she started riding horses and i think this has really given her an outlet for this need.

-susan
austin,tx

Susan and Theodore wrote:

From: "Susan and Theodore" <Stuff@...>
That IS my daughter and she is almost 11 as well!
I find that when she gets the most controlling is when she needs some MOM
time!
She gets frustrated being the oldest and as hard as I try she still feels
this great responsibility for things. I think that she needs to "control"
the environment in her way to make it work for her....I know that I do this
also, as I feel it needs to be my way at times or it does not work at ALL!
I am sure that it does and I have found that on many occasions it does--I am
sure that I passed down this wonderful trait, but we both try to get around
this genetic flaw and find some other outlet for our need to control---11 is
scary also---It seems as if her hormones are beginning to flow and I am sure
that I need to spend some more time with her (as I am sure that some
questions are arising--she has all the answers, but I think the questions
are more "REAL" now that she is getting older and understanding the world
around her some more)
SOSusan....going to talk with her tonight and smooth out some wrinkleys

The O'Donnells

At 10:53 PM 12/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: sara woodall <swoodall@...>
>
>I have a child that loves to be
>controlling in nearly everything.
>
>Is she a first-born?
>
>
Yes she is. And she can be very mature for her age. It is not all a bad
thing - I really see her leadership qualities - I just want to teach her to
control the bossiness and the need to control things when others don't want
to do things her way. Know what I mean?


In His Service,

Laraine
praxis@...
ICQ # 25529560
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

Susan and Theodore

YUP definitely know what you mean
I have found it to be one of my most difficult tasks!!
To get her to be able to have control---BUT peaceful control not absolute!!
SOSusan...
----- Original Message -----
From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Control


> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
>
> At 10:53 PM 12/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >From: sara woodall <swoodall@...>
> >
> >I have a child that loves to be
> >controlling in nearly everything.
> >
> >Is she a first-born?
> >
> >
> Yes she is. And she can be very mature for her age. It is not all a bad
> thing - I really see her leadership qualities - I just want to teach her
to
> control the bossiness and the need to control things when others don't
want
> to do things her way. Know what I mean?
>
>
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine
> praxis@...
> ICQ # 25529560
> Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/22/1999 4:45:11 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
swoodall@... writes:

<< have a child that loves to be
controlling in nearly everything.

Is she a first-born?

Sara >>

My "we are not sure what she will do when she grows up but we know she will
be IN CHARGE" daughter is the second child.

Nance

Joseph Fuerst

I am wondering if "control" is our best word in this discussion. Parents
make decisions which their children must live with. In regard to
TV....parents decide whether to own a television at all. (I know one brave
person here piped up to say they didn't.), whether to own more than one,
whether to put them in children's bedrooms, main rooms or more out-of the
way rooms, etc. In any of these circumstances, one could maintain the
no limits/controls idea....but the parents decision certainly has a lot of
influence.

Parents primarily choose what books,toys and games will be in the house.
How many museums, parks, nightclubs, theaters, stores you may visit.
Parents choose what groceries will come into the home, how often and where
meals are eaten out, etc.

When our children are toddlers, we may restrict them from certain cabinets
and rooms by using locks and gates. We may be allowing as much freedom as
we think is reasonable and safe. ....and we will expand their boundaries
and choices as they grow and change.

Even those of us who treat our children as little humans and NOT little
projects or objects or players in a competition with "the Joneses"....even
we influence our children by controlloing some things about their life.

And in a family......everybody's needs must be somehow balanced. If a young
child is awake into the wee hours, an adult needs to be awake too....and an
adult needs to be up with any early birds....But the adult(s) in the home
need to get their needs met (dare I say it?) before the childrens needs.
(Think oxygen on airplanes.)

I see this as providing our children with the freedoms they can safely
manage....and staying aware of their growth...enabling their choices to
broaden with growth.

Hope this makes some sense...I've got a tired toddler here who needs
attention..
TTFN,
Susan

> Experts have been telling moms for years that kids "need" limits. They
> are can only feel truly safe and loved when they have limits. That can
> be hard to get past.
>
> I believe moms can know their kids very well. I also have seen plenty of
> moms who just think they do. Maybe a kid gets grumpy if he watches TV
> all day. But maybe he's grumpy because he didn't get anything to eat.
> Maybe he didn't feel good in the first place and that's why he chose to
> sit and watch TV. Maybe he chose TV because he couldn't think of
> something else and he's grumpy because he's frustrated. Maybe he's
> grumpy because mom keeps saying "are you just going to sit there all
> day??" I think it's easy to assume it's the TV because after all, we
> all *know* TV is bad for kids!( they need limits!) On an unschooling
> list, I don't see the harm in asking, - are you sure it was the TV--
> maybe you didn't think of this other reason.
>
> I also know, when our decisions are questioned all the time, it's easy
> to become defensive. Many of us have friends, family members and even
> partners who don't support our choice to unschool. One more person
> asking a question can feel like an attack, when it was really just meant
> to be a question, something to consider.
>
> No matter what anyone on this list, or anywhere else, says or thinks or
> implies, we all still have the ability to make our own decisions.
>
> Controlling kids is a huge issue. Some people use their religion as an
> excuse, some people just like the power, some people just never think
> about it. Telling someone else what to do, what to think, what to eat,
> what to wear, how to behave--these are control issues. Questioning them
> seems appropriate on an unschooling list.
>
> I know this one true thing. My own son is delighted to be alive. He's
> happy to be a kid. He has no issues, no problems. He is free to make
> his own choices.
> When someone says their child is unhappy or unhealthy, I know there
> could be a million reasons for it, but I've seen so many examples of the
> reason being control of the child's life by the parent.
>
> Deb L
>
>

Helen Hegener

At 2:39 PM -0500 11/19/01, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
>I see this as providing our children with the freedoms they can safely
>manage....and staying aware of their growth...enabling their choices to
>broaden with growth.
>
>Hope this makes some sense...

Makes perfect sense to me, Susan. I could have written your whole
post myelf. <g>

Helen

Tia Leschke

At 11:51 AM 11/19/01 -0800, you wrote:
>At 2:39 PM -0500 11/19/01, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
> >I see this as providing our children with the freedoms they can safely
> >manage....and staying aware of their growth...enabling their choices to
> >broaden with growth.
> >
> >Hope this makes some sense...
>
>Makes perfect sense to me, Susan. I could have written your whole
>post myelf. <g>

My mother used to use a nice analogy. She said you have a fenced yard
(restrictions meant to keep the child safe) for your really small
kids. You know everything is safe there, and the child knows that mum is
near. As the child grows, you notice that he's pushing on the gate. That
means that it's probably time for the fence to get pushed back a bit. You
push the fence back and the child is happy. You keep doing that every time
the child pushes at the gate. Eventually, the child opens the gate and
walks out, but he's welcome to come back in whenever he wants. As he gets
older, he comes back less and less until he's on his own and only comes for
visits.

I think we all use some sort of "fenced yard" for our really little
kids. And we probably all differ as to where we put the fence and at what
ages.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Lynda

Hubby rarely pays any attention to what goes on with what he calls the
"radical cyber ladies." However, when I read him one of my replies to see
if it made sense to him, he commented that all this freedom and letting kids
do as they please (his words, not mine), is nothing new and he doesn't buy
the argument that limits create rebellion. His argument with it being "I
got to eat as much candy as I wanted. If I had a bag of it I could sit down
and eat it all at once. I ate what I wanted when I wanted. I did what I
wanted with few if any restrictions. I watched unlimited amounts of
television. It was the same at most of my friends' houses. The only thing
we had to do was go to school and we did it when we wanted. When I got to
the late teen stage I rebelled. I don't know against what because there
weren't any things to rebell against. Strange thing is that I don't want my
kids to grow up without limits. I don't want them pigging out on as much
candy as they want and I don't want them sitting like zombies watching what
I don't think is age appropriate. So how does that fit in with the freedom
of choice brigade."

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Control


> At 11:51 AM 11/19/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >At 2:39 PM -0500 11/19/01, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
> > >I see this as providing our children with the freedoms they can safely
> > >manage....and staying aware of their growth...enabling their choices to
> > >broaden with growth.
> > >
> > >Hope this makes some sense...
> >
> >Makes perfect sense to me, Susan. I could have written your whole
> >post myelf. <g>
>
> My mother used to use a nice analogy. She said you have a fenced yard
> (restrictions meant to keep the child safe) for your really small
> kids. You know everything is safe there, and the child knows that mum is
> near. As the child grows, you notice that he's pushing on the gate. That
> means that it's probably time for the fence to get pushed back a bit. You
> push the fence back and the child is happy. You keep doing that every
time
> the child pushes at the gate. Eventually, the child opens the gate and
> walks out, but he's welcome to come back in whenever he wants. As he gets
> older, he comes back less and less until he's on his own and only comes
for
> visits.
>
> I think we all use some sort of "fenced yard" for our really little
> kids. And we probably all differ as to where we put the fence and at what
> ages.
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
> **************************************************************************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>

Tia Leschke

>When I got to
>the late teen stage I rebelled. I don't know against what because there
>weren't any things to rebell against.

Interesting. My parents were very liberal in what I could do. When I was
14, my curfew was 1a.m. (That was because I had speed-skating practise
from 11-12.) I was still very rebellious for a year or two. When I was
almost 16, my friends and I wanted to go to the Rhode Island Folk
Festival. I doubted my parents would let me hitchhike there with my
friends. <g> So I asked if I could hitch down to Big Sur with them. That
was still a bit much for them, and they said no. So we just took off. I
managed to convince myself that I was "running away" because "they didn't
care enough about me to be even more strict"......sigh.
A friend once said that teenagers *have* to find things to hate about home
and parents, or they'll never leave. <g>
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Alan Moorehead

Tia Leschke wrote:

>
> >When I got to
> >the late teen stage I rebelled. I don't know against what because
> there
> >weren't any things to rebell against.
>
> Interesting. My parents were very liberal in what I could do. When I
> was
> 14, my curfew was 1a.m. (That was because I had speed-skating
> practise
> from 11-12.) I was still very rebellious for a year or two. When I
> was
> almost 16, my friends and I wanted to go to the Rhode Island Folk
> Festival. I doubted my parents would let me hitchhike there with my
> friends. <g> So I asked if I could hitch down to Big Sur with them.
> That
> was still a bit much for them, and they said no. So we just took
> off. I
> managed to convince myself that I was "running away" because "they
> didn't
> care enough about me to be even more strict"......sigh.
> A friend once said that teenagers *have* to find things to hate about
> home
> and parents, or they'll never leave. <g>
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island

I grew up in a very controlled environment. I was already 16 and in bed
by 9PM. The front door was locked at 7PM. I couldn't answer the phone
without permission. It never occurred to me to rebel because I never
realized that was a choice. I was like a zombie. I didn't wake up
until I was in my 30's. I envy your childhood, Tina. It sounds like
you had fun and were very aware of the world around you. I wasn't aware
of anything.

Mimi


>
> *
> ************************************************************************
>
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
> Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>
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