Re: Digest Number 343
Tracy Oldfield
>Diane, I have to give you a 'ray of hope' for things set up for children,
> Debra Bures wrote:
>
> I asked later if it were possible for Claire to join the boys group.
>
> No way.
>
> She had to be in the baby class with only children her age (3/4).
> This group - the *fun* group that *moved*, was only for boys.
>
> I've gone on much too long here - I just wanted to share that it is
> my experience that any activity (or class - or book or program or idea)
> *specifically designed for children*, often *stinks*.
>
> It seems to me that incorporating children into the real world
> - of all that we are already doing or choose to do - offers so much.
> And so, if I feel like doing pottery - or if Claire feels like doing
> some pottery - I'll get some clay and just do it. Or take a class
> for adults and bring her with me. She can join in without limits that
> are imposed on her simply because she is a child.
>
> Last night, too, I saw a first ray of hope when Jean Luc, my husband,
> told me he did understand the no schooling thing - that he wished
> he had been free to choose to seek out freely what he wanted to know
> - and without testing.
albeit by a mostly 'unschooling' group, a gym session we have recently
started attending, is designed to allow 'free' (within the constraints of
fairness, ie, not allowed to hog the trampoline for the whole session :-) )
activity, with an instructor on site to explain and encourage 'proper'
gymnastic moves, somersaults, etc. I like it, even if the teacher's very
used to the normal school-ish hierarchy, I'm sure we're educating him as we
go along <g>
Just thought I'd let you know :-)
Tracy
McBryan Alignan
Tracy Oldfield wrote:
Diane Alignan wrote:
and interested in what going on. What though, exactly, is "normal
school-ish hierarchy"?
I saw recently a great article in 'Growing Without Schooling' entitled:
Growing Without Education, by Aaron Falbel from Massachusettes. It's
about letting go of *education* - the whole mentality of *educating*
someone.
Certainly, someone "hogging" the trampoline for 25 minutes doesn't
fly if others are waiting....but it seems that so much stress is
put on educating the group for the goodness of the group - so much
to do with social politesse, that what is important - the individual
person - is lost. Children are "social" like anyone else. Seems to me
that purposely teaching so much politesse - instead of just living it
- puts children in an awkward position - particularly damaging to
very young children.
I think these group activities that go down so young interfere
enormously with play and discovery. We avoid it. As a child
grows and comes to understand better language and reasoning -
certain politeness and consideration for others begins to make
some sense - and is grasped because it begins to make sense - - -
then again, maybe not - but that's not the point.
Forced sharing and such bugs me enormously. Where is the concern for
what it *means* to share - where it comes from?
I saw the other night, Jacque Chirac - and a mother and a son - meeting
and shaking the French President's hand. The mother presented President
Chirac with a piece of pottery that the young child had made. The child
burst into tears and said he wanted to keep what he had made. The mother
insisted the gift be given and so did Mr. Chirac as he took it and turned
away, *smiling*. The child buried his face into the mother's dress,
sobbing. Where was the understanding for *individual feelings* - this
*child's feelings?!* And so Mr Chirac walked off, smiling, with
something of great importance to someone else. The giving (taking and
accepting) was more important than anything (anyone) else. It was
forbidden to fluff the feathers of such "nice" social customs.
Coming back around to the importance of individuality and
selfness (opposed to "selfishness"): Individuality seems squashed
in these groups of children put together of the same age - put
together to do pretty much the same thing and to learn the same thing.
I would find it a very special and rare program - one that respected
the *individual* child.
"Educational" or not, something usually still stinks.
My point is, don't be afraid to sniff a bit - and recognize a nasty
smell when you smell it - - - and agree when a child makes a face
when he smells the same thing.
I prefer to be outside.
Diane McBryan Alignan
Diane Alignan wrote:
> > I asked later if it were possible for Claire to join the boys group.Sounds alright to me, sort of, Tracy - as long as everyone is receptive
> >
> > No way.
> >
> > She had to be in the baby class with only children her age (3/4).
> > This group - the *fun* group that *moved*, was only for boys.
> >
> > I've gone on much too long here - I just wanted to share that it is
> > my experience that any activity (or class - or book or program or idea)
> > *specifically designed for children*, often *stinks*.
> >
> > It seems to me that incorporating children into the real world
> > - of all that we are already doing or choose to do - offers so much.
> > And so, if I feel like doing pottery - or if Claire feels like doing
> > some pottery - I'll get some clay and just do it. Or take a class
> > for adults and bring her with me. She can join in without limits that
> > are imposed on her simply because she is a child.
> >
> > Last night, too, I saw a first ray of hope when Jean Luc, my husband,
> > told me he did understand the no schooling thing - that he wished
> > he had been free to choose to seek out freely what he wanted to know
> > - and without testing.
>
> Diane, I have to give you a 'ray of hope' for things set up for children,
> albeit by a mostly 'unschooling' group, a gym session we have recently
> started attending, is designed to allow 'free' (within the constraints of
> fairness, ie, not allowed to hog the trampoline for the whole session :-) )
> activity, with an instructor on site to explain and encourage 'proper'
> gymnastic moves, somersaults, etc. I like it, even if the teacher's very
> used to the normal school-ish hierarchy, I'm sure we're educating him as we
> go along <g>
>
> Just thought I'd let you know :-)
>
> Tracy
and interested in what going on. What though, exactly, is "normal
school-ish hierarchy"?
I saw recently a great article in 'Growing Without Schooling' entitled:
Growing Without Education, by Aaron Falbel from Massachusettes. It's
about letting go of *education* - the whole mentality of *educating*
someone.
Certainly, someone "hogging" the trampoline for 25 minutes doesn't
fly if others are waiting....but it seems that so much stress is
put on educating the group for the goodness of the group - so much
to do with social politesse, that what is important - the individual
person - is lost. Children are "social" like anyone else. Seems to me
that purposely teaching so much politesse - instead of just living it
- puts children in an awkward position - particularly damaging to
very young children.
I think these group activities that go down so young interfere
enormously with play and discovery. We avoid it. As a child
grows and comes to understand better language and reasoning -
certain politeness and consideration for others begins to make
some sense - and is grasped because it begins to make sense - - -
then again, maybe not - but that's not the point.
Forced sharing and such bugs me enormously. Where is the concern for
what it *means* to share - where it comes from?
I saw the other night, Jacque Chirac - and a mother and a son - meeting
and shaking the French President's hand. The mother presented President
Chirac with a piece of pottery that the young child had made. The child
burst into tears and said he wanted to keep what he had made. The mother
insisted the gift be given and so did Mr. Chirac as he took it and turned
away, *smiling*. The child buried his face into the mother's dress,
sobbing. Where was the understanding for *individual feelings* - this
*child's feelings?!* And so Mr Chirac walked off, smiling, with
something of great importance to someone else. The giving (taking and
accepting) was more important than anything (anyone) else. It was
forbidden to fluff the feathers of such "nice" social customs.
Coming back around to the importance of individuality and
selfness (opposed to "selfishness"): Individuality seems squashed
in these groups of children put together of the same age - put
together to do pretty much the same thing and to learn the same thing.
I would find it a very special and rare program - one that respected
the *individual* child.
"Educational" or not, something usually still stinks.
My point is, don't be afraid to sniff a bit - and recognize a nasty
smell when you smell it - - - and agree when a child makes a face
when he smells the same thing.
I prefer to be outside.
Diane McBryan Alignan
Carolyn Talarr
Hi,
I loved Diane's entire post on sharing/group activities.
18-month-old didn't want to let other kids take some plastic vegetables out
of a bowl she was holding. Her mother, *a child therapist*, said "you can
share, you know how to do it, you're good at it". I had to turn away at
the violence that was being done to this little one's sense of self. By a
"therapist".
boy to give back the pottery and respected the child. For Pete's sake, he's
just going to have an assistant put it in a box along with all the other
stuff he gets every day from people. Chirac would have given that boy and
all of us an unforgettable model of generosity and understanding.
Carolyn
I loved Diane's entire post on sharing/group activities.
>Forced sharing and such bugs me enormously. Where is the concern forYesterday we were at a party with lots and lots of little kids, and a little
>what it *means* to share - where it comes from?
18-month-old didn't want to let other kids take some plastic vegetables out
of a bowl she was holding. Her mother, *a child therapist*, said "you can
share, you know how to do it, you're good at it". I had to turn away at
the violence that was being done to this little one's sense of self. By a
"therapist".
>What a tremendous story it would have been if Chirac had been a big enough
>I saw the other night, Jacque Chirac - and a mother and a son - meeting
>and shaking the French President's hand. The mother presented President
>Chirac with a piece of pottery that the young child had made. The child
>burst into tears and said he wanted to keep what he had made. The mother
>insisted the gift be given and so did Mr. Chirac as he took it and turned
>away, *smiling*. The child buried his face into the mother's dress,
>sobbing.
boy to give back the pottery and respected the child. For Pete's sake, he's
just going to have an assistant put it in a box along with all the other
stuff he gets every day from people. Chirac would have given that boy and
all of us an unforgettable model of generosity and understanding.
Carolyn
McBryan Alignan
Carolyn Talarr wrote:
A statement perhaps: "She doesn't want to share right now."
"She doesn't want to give the things she is using right now to others.
I can understand that perfectly."
Then you'll get the weird look. Stay with it for the child's sake.
Whether or not the mother "gets" it - something has gone out there and
has her thinking now....
And Mrs. or Dr. Better Share might then say:
"What about *sharing*? It's important to *share*! She knows how to
share (most likely translation: I have forced her to before and she
did it - I'll leave the being "good" at it alone).
Perhaps a good response might be:
"I think *respect* is extremely important - more important - *her*
sense of well being, including feeling alright about having things
(possessing things - another sticky subject for another post) and to
be able to continue on with using something if she chooses to - and
not to be forced to share with someone else because the
"Good Mommy Show" is on...
(Well, think of the last sentence - don't say it...)
And so she responds:
"How will she ever *learn* to share if I don't teach her?"
"Patience. Observation. Believe it or not, I know of a little girl
who lives in France who was never told to say "Please" - never -
and she says it often - because others use the word often with her
- and no one has ever set out to teach her something ***with the
assumption that there would ever be a "problem"***. Sometimes the
little girl shares, too. Sometimes, not, but her sense of what it
means to share comes from herself and is not imposed on her by someone
else. Her wishes are respected and backed up by her Mom. This
preserves and nutures the girl's well being - her Self. If she were
forced to do these things, the root of the whole idea of sharing would
be lost anyway - making it quite distasteful, don't you think?"
"Gee, don't you think you are making a big deal out of this?"
"It is a big deal. Those plastic veggies are a big deal to her and
when you force her to give them away, you are giving away and wearing
away the heart of her." (This is a very interesting topic, I think:
all this crap that children and people have - and hoard - - - makes
perfect sense where all the trouble comes from. I think it's a joke
the bags of plastic stuff that are lugged to the beach to play with.
Isn't there enough great stuff already there?! And so the fights begin!
Share!)
You could continue with something like:
"It wouldn't be a problem in the first place if people respected their
children's wishes rather than putting more importance on *ideas* such
as generosity and politeness - all those little social "niceties" that
grow too huge, stifling the life out of little people's play."
And so it goes on like that - well, maybe not, if she is a therapist
and you have "challenged" her "expertise". No matter though, the
important thing is the child heard you - you spoke up for her - and the
mother now has your very important point of view in her mind. Don't be
quiet. Speak up! Even if they think you're a fruitcake.
Diane McBryan Alignan
> Yesterday we were at a party with lots and lots of little kids, and a littleNo. You didn't have to turn away. Why not speak up for the child?
> 18-month-old didn't want to let other kids take some plastic vegetables out
> of a bowl she was holding. Her mother, *a child therapist*, said "you can
> share, you know how to do it, you're good at it". I had to turn away at
> the violence that was being done to this little one's sense of self. By a
> "therapist".
A statement perhaps: "She doesn't want to share right now."
"She doesn't want to give the things she is using right now to others.
I can understand that perfectly."
Then you'll get the weird look. Stay with it for the child's sake.
Whether or not the mother "gets" it - something has gone out there and
has her thinking now....
And Mrs. or Dr. Better Share might then say:
"What about *sharing*? It's important to *share*! She knows how to
share (most likely translation: I have forced her to before and she
did it - I'll leave the being "good" at it alone).
Perhaps a good response might be:
"I think *respect* is extremely important - more important - *her*
sense of well being, including feeling alright about having things
(possessing things - another sticky subject for another post) and to
be able to continue on with using something if she chooses to - and
not to be forced to share with someone else because the
"Good Mommy Show" is on...
(Well, think of the last sentence - don't say it...)
And so she responds:
"How will she ever *learn* to share if I don't teach her?"
"Patience. Observation. Believe it or not, I know of a little girl
who lives in France who was never told to say "Please" - never -
and she says it often - because others use the word often with her
- and no one has ever set out to teach her something ***with the
assumption that there would ever be a "problem"***. Sometimes the
little girl shares, too. Sometimes, not, but her sense of what it
means to share comes from herself and is not imposed on her by someone
else. Her wishes are respected and backed up by her Mom. This
preserves and nutures the girl's well being - her Self. If she were
forced to do these things, the root of the whole idea of sharing would
be lost anyway - making it quite distasteful, don't you think?"
"Gee, don't you think you are making a big deal out of this?"
"It is a big deal. Those plastic veggies are a big deal to her and
when you force her to give them away, you are giving away and wearing
away the heart of her." (This is a very interesting topic, I think:
all this crap that children and people have - and hoard - - - makes
perfect sense where all the trouble comes from. I think it's a joke
the bags of plastic stuff that are lugged to the beach to play with.
Isn't there enough great stuff already there?! And so the fights begin!
Share!)
You could continue with something like:
"It wouldn't be a problem in the first place if people respected their
children's wishes rather than putting more importance on *ideas* such
as generosity and politeness - all those little social "niceties" that
grow too huge, stifling the life out of little people's play."
And so it goes on like that - well, maybe not, if she is a therapist
and you have "challenged" her "expertise". No matter though, the
important thing is the child heard you - you spoke up for her - and the
mother now has your very important point of view in her mind. Don't be
quiet. Speak up! Even if they think you're a fruitcake.
Diane McBryan Alignan
Thad Martin
Carolyn Talarr wrote:
I really should integrate my past life withthis one, but I'm so full of doubts
and unsurenesses that I've got my handsfull just trying to be a good mother to
Annie!
hi,
i can completely relate with being full of doubt. for me, i have very little
to draw on, other than that the way i was raised is not what i want for my kids
(i love my parents but child 'rear' was not their forte:). so for the first 4
years i kept a very low profile, keeping personal input to a minimum, just to
get my bearings and 'try on' being a mom without all the suggestions and
comments. it wasn't until rene' was nearly 4 (just last sept,) and i turned
40, that i felt i knew what made sense to me ( i got some philosophical base to
work and grow from) and we could weather all the opinions (spoken or thought, i
swear sometimes i can read minds, which drives my husband nuts:)
Second, from organizing, I've learned to "start where people are" (Saul
Alinsky), rather than tell them flat out where you think they should be.
That way, you lessen the risk that you've lost people from the start by
making them marshal their defenses--you can help them build a bridge from
where they are to a potentially better place. With confrontational
approach, although that gets a point "out there", people's common response
is to push away. Maybe just maybe they'll resentfully reconsider what you
say later on, but maybe not.
i agree and i was thinking that if you are concerned about making someone
defensive a possible option would be to try and not form an opinion about
what's happening, the mother may be less confident then it appears which could
push her to 'control' her child - a sort of knee jerk reaction to live up to
someone else's expectation. make comments as you had mentioned but also sit
down with the kids and play with them. often the toy is only interesting
because another kid is having fun with it. in my experience the fun is what
the kids want not the object. it's just that they can't separate the 2
because at this young age that's the way life is, kind of an all or nothing
stance. we attribute qualities such as greed, selfishness, and meanness to
little ones when in truth those are simply adult qualities, the kids are much
too spontaneous to have these kinds of feelings. yes, they hit and get mad
and lots of other 'frustrating' kinds of things but we do have to be careful
not to make them out to be so self-conscious, deliberate and thought out.
it's all so very organic and difficult because there are so many theories and
opinions but what i find that helped me and saved me from feeling like the
worst mom ever, was to have great compassion for myself and others (whether
they 'deserved' it or not:) because by doing this i kind of forced myself to
accept the fact that i can't control really anything, not what others said, not
they way others raised their kids, nor my own son. once i understood that he
had the right to develop and not be controlled, i realized his behavior was
merely a reflection of his relationship to the world and that that relationship
was facilitated not only by me but by his age and every other relationship he
had. what i needed to do was to interpret what he was communication. for
example, we live next to a daycare and across the street from an elementary
school. one day rene' was stomping around (he was around 3) mad and said he
wanted to be a 'daycare kid', that he didn't want to be with me, he wanted to
be next door. well this went on for sometime, i was really deeply hurt, so i
left him to 'play' in the yard just to think, feel sorry for myself, beat
myself up, all that kind of thin, but then i realized that what he really want
was more one-on-one play, which he hadn't been getting because i had been very
sick (some weird autoimmune thing that hit me about 18 months before), and we
had allowed ourselves to get lost in survival mode and weren't having fun. so
it wasn't that he wanted to be in daycare or that he hated me but this was the
best he could do to communicate that he was not happy and something needed to
change. he was right, we changed and life's better for all of us.
most popular views of children do not fully grasp or respect the native
intelligence of children and really focus on the 'model' them theory, but
respect, faith and observation are key. the best part of parenting is
experiencing all the growth, the worst part is that they have the uncanny
knack for magnifying all your weaknesses :0 don't let your doubt override
your natural good sense, but i think having the doubt now is a good thing
because you'll be ready for what's to come:)
-susan
austin,tx
I really should integrate my past life withthis one, but I'm so full of doubts
and unsurenesses that I've got my handsfull just trying to be a good mother to
Annie!
hi,
i can completely relate with being full of doubt. for me, i have very little
to draw on, other than that the way i was raised is not what i want for my kids
(i love my parents but child 'rear' was not their forte:). so for the first 4
years i kept a very low profile, keeping personal input to a minimum, just to
get my bearings and 'try on' being a mom without all the suggestions and
comments. it wasn't until rene' was nearly 4 (just last sept,) and i turned
40, that i felt i knew what made sense to me ( i got some philosophical base to
work and grow from) and we could weather all the opinions (spoken or thought, i
swear sometimes i can read minds, which drives my husband nuts:)
Second, from organizing, I've learned to "start where people are" (Saul
Alinsky), rather than tell them flat out where you think they should be.
That way, you lessen the risk that you've lost people from the start by
making them marshal their defenses--you can help them build a bridge from
where they are to a potentially better place. With confrontational
approach, although that gets a point "out there", people's common response
is to push away. Maybe just maybe they'll resentfully reconsider what you
say later on, but maybe not.
i agree and i was thinking that if you are concerned about making someone
defensive a possible option would be to try and not form an opinion about
what's happening, the mother may be less confident then it appears which could
push her to 'control' her child - a sort of knee jerk reaction to live up to
someone else's expectation. make comments as you had mentioned but also sit
down with the kids and play with them. often the toy is only interesting
because another kid is having fun with it. in my experience the fun is what
the kids want not the object. it's just that they can't separate the 2
because at this young age that's the way life is, kind of an all or nothing
stance. we attribute qualities such as greed, selfishness, and meanness to
little ones when in truth those are simply adult qualities, the kids are much
too spontaneous to have these kinds of feelings. yes, they hit and get mad
and lots of other 'frustrating' kinds of things but we do have to be careful
not to make them out to be so self-conscious, deliberate and thought out.
it's all so very organic and difficult because there are so many theories and
opinions but what i find that helped me and saved me from feeling like the
worst mom ever, was to have great compassion for myself and others (whether
they 'deserved' it or not:) because by doing this i kind of forced myself to
accept the fact that i can't control really anything, not what others said, not
they way others raised their kids, nor my own son. once i understood that he
had the right to develop and not be controlled, i realized his behavior was
merely a reflection of his relationship to the world and that that relationship
was facilitated not only by me but by his age and every other relationship he
had. what i needed to do was to interpret what he was communication. for
example, we live next to a daycare and across the street from an elementary
school. one day rene' was stomping around (he was around 3) mad and said he
wanted to be a 'daycare kid', that he didn't want to be with me, he wanted to
be next door. well this went on for sometime, i was really deeply hurt, so i
left him to 'play' in the yard just to think, feel sorry for myself, beat
myself up, all that kind of thin, but then i realized that what he really want
was more one-on-one play, which he hadn't been getting because i had been very
sick (some weird autoimmune thing that hit me about 18 months before), and we
had allowed ourselves to get lost in survival mode and weren't having fun. so
it wasn't that he wanted to be in daycare or that he hated me but this was the
best he could do to communicate that he was not happy and something needed to
change. he was right, we changed and life's better for all of us.
most popular views of children do not fully grasp or respect the native
intelligence of children and really focus on the 'model' them theory, but
respect, faith and observation are key. the best part of parenting is
experiencing all the growth, the worst part is that they have the uncanny
knack for magnifying all your weaknesses :0 don't let your doubt override
your natural good sense, but i think having the doubt now is a good thing
because you'll be ready for what's to come:)
-susan
austin,tx
Carolyn Talarr
Hi Diane and all,
Your reply to my reply prompted a lot of reflection for me. First, just let
me say that my professional background is in social justice-oriented adult
literacy and I worked for several years in education and organizing along
these lines before having Annie and deciding to parent full-time. That's
informing some of what I'm going to say.
But your reply also brought home to me that as a mother I'm learning
*everything* anew, like my entire life before this just evaporated, with
only some occasional mistily-remembered shreds of the knowledge from my
"past life" coming in :).
I *have* in the past advocated one-on-one in favor of breastfeeding with
soon-to-be-moms looking at formula just in stores or with new moms at malls
in the baby changing rooms--I think it's because after 27 mos I feel
comfortable in my experience of bfing that I can speak on it to others as
well as by modeling extended bfing.
But this mothering thing, sheesh. Annie's now entering the psychologically
challenging part of parenting (the part from after infancy until I die!) and
I feel like a complete novice every single day at it. Since I am struggling
through reflecting and analyzing how I (and DH) want to raise Annie, when I
see other people's parenting practices I may disagree (vehemently) and thus
have renewed resolve in my own choices, but I don't yet feel the
inner--I-don't-know-what to step in educationally, for lack of a better
word, as I do with bfing issues.
Second, from organizing, I've learned to "start where people are" (Saul
Alinsky), rather than tell them flat out where you think they should be.
That way, you lessen the risk that you've lost people from the start by
making them marshal their defenses--you can help them build a bridge from
where they are to a potentially better place. With confrontational
approach, although that gets a point "out there", people's common response
is to push away. Maybe just maybe they'll resentfully reconsider what you
say later on, but maybe not.
to the mother and said to her and to Annie, "It's o.k., Juliet wants to keep
those particular toys to herself right now. Let's go find something else."
But probably what I said sounded like veiled criticism to the mother,
because she didn't know where precisely I was coming from.
I think on the basis of your suggestions, I can imagine in a future
situation trying to accomplish the same end as you're aiming for, but by
slightly different means.
I *could* see trying to take the issue further by talking from my own
experience, about how we have thought about dealing with "sharing", that
Annie doesn't have to give up anything just because someone else wants it,
etc. and trying to recognize the mother's embarrassment, however misplaced,
rather than point out her logical flaws.
As an acquaintance who is a diversity trainer (strange phrase, but that's
what she calls it) said, "There's a lot of fear". She always tries to think
of people resisting change as afraid of something, and help them overcome
their fears, no matter how heinous they look once they evince themselves as
behaviors.
Thanks for the shot in the arm. I really should integrate my past life with
this one, but I'm so full of doubts and unsurenesses that I've got my hands
full just trying to be a good mother to Annie! And don't get me started on
the little girl's "kennel cough", my name for the ubiquitous giveaway of
kids in daycare...
Carolyn
Your reply to my reply prompted a lot of reflection for me. First, just let
me say that my professional background is in social justice-oriented adult
literacy and I worked for several years in education and organizing along
these lines before having Annie and deciding to parent full-time. That's
informing some of what I'm going to say.
But your reply also brought home to me that as a mother I'm learning
*everything* anew, like my entire life before this just evaporated, with
only some occasional mistily-remembered shreds of the knowledge from my
"past life" coming in :).
I *have* in the past advocated one-on-one in favor of breastfeeding with
soon-to-be-moms looking at formula just in stores or with new moms at malls
in the baby changing rooms--I think it's because after 27 mos I feel
comfortable in my experience of bfing that I can speak on it to others as
well as by modeling extended bfing.
But this mothering thing, sheesh. Annie's now entering the psychologically
challenging part of parenting (the part from after infancy until I die!) and
I feel like a complete novice every single day at it. Since I am struggling
through reflecting and analyzing how I (and DH) want to raise Annie, when I
see other people's parenting practices I may disagree (vehemently) and thus
have renewed resolve in my own choices, but I don't yet feel the
inner--I-don't-know-what to step in educationally, for lack of a better
word, as I do with bfing issues.
Second, from organizing, I've learned to "start where people are" (Saul
Alinsky), rather than tell them flat out where you think they should be.
That way, you lessen the risk that you've lost people from the start by
making them marshal their defenses--you can help them build a bridge from
where they are to a potentially better place. With confrontational
approach, although that gets a point "out there", people's common response
is to push away. Maybe just maybe they'll resentfully reconsider what you
say later on, but maybe not.
>No. You didn't have to turn away. Why not speak up for the child?I should mention that I did say that. I tried to give an understanding look
>A statement perhaps: "She doesn't want to share right now."
to the mother and said to her and to Annie, "It's o.k., Juliet wants to keep
those particular toys to herself right now. Let's go find something else."
But probably what I said sounded like veiled criticism to the mother,
because she didn't know where precisely I was coming from.
I think on the basis of your suggestions, I can imagine in a future
situation trying to accomplish the same end as you're aiming for, but by
slightly different means.
I *could* see trying to take the issue further by talking from my own
experience, about how we have thought about dealing with "sharing", that
Annie doesn't have to give up anything just because someone else wants it,
etc. and trying to recognize the mother's embarrassment, however misplaced,
rather than point out her logical flaws.
As an acquaintance who is a diversity trainer (strange phrase, but that's
what she calls it) said, "There's a lot of fear". She always tries to think
of people resisting change as afraid of something, and help them overcome
their fears, no matter how heinous they look once they evince themselves as
behaviors.
Thanks for the shot in the arm. I really should integrate my past life with
this one, but I'm so full of doubts and unsurenesses that I've got my hands
full just trying to be a good mother to Annie! And don't get me started on
the little girl's "kennel cough", my name for the ubiquitous giveaway of
kids in daycare...
Carolyn
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/19/99 6:39:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
talarr@... writes:
<<
Thanks for the shot in the arm. I really should integrate my past life with
this one, but I'm so full of doubts and unsurenesses that I've got my hands
full just trying to be a good mother to Annie! And don't get me started on
the little girl's "kennel cough", my name for the ubiquitous giveaway of
kids in daycare...
Carolyn
You are all giving me much to reflect upon. I am very grateful to have
discovered this list.
Yesterday was one of those days (coinciding with my 46th birthday) where I
felt like the world's worst mother. I, too, have been what I would call a
late bloomer and have only started coming into trusting my inner voice about
parenting in the past few years.
We are leaving snowless Michigan for a two week trip to Texas in a few hours.
I wish you all a wonderful holiday.
Marcie
talarr@... writes:
<<
Thanks for the shot in the arm. I really should integrate my past life with
this one, but I'm so full of doubts and unsurenesses that I've got my hands
full just trying to be a good mother to Annie! And don't get me started on
the little girl's "kennel cough", my name for the ubiquitous giveaway of
kids in daycare...
Carolyn
>>By the way, Carolyn, two of my three daughters are named Carolyn and Annie!
You are all giving me much to reflect upon. I am very grateful to have
discovered this list.
Yesterday was one of those days (coinciding with my 46th birthday) where I
felt like the world's worst mother. I, too, have been what I would call a
late bloomer and have only started coming into trusting my inner voice about
parenting in the past few years.
We are leaving snowless Michigan for a two week trip to Texas in a few hours.
I wish you all a wonderful holiday.
Marcie
McBryan Alignan
Carolyn Talarr wrote:
about the *children* and respect. It's not even about being a "good"
mother.
It's all about the children.
Diane
> Second, from organizing, I've learned to "start where people are" (SaulIt's not so much about us (adults/mothers/parents) as it is
> Alinsky), rather than tell them flat out where you think they should be.
> That way, you lessen the risk that you've lost people from the start by
> making them marshal their defenses--you can help them build a bridge from
> where they are to a potentially better place. With confrontational
> approach, although that gets a point "out there", people's common response
> is to push away. Maybe just maybe they'll resentfully reconsider what you
> say later on, but maybe not.
>
> >No. You didn't have to turn away. Why not speak up for the child?
> >A statement perhaps: "She doesn't want to share right now."
>
> I should mention that I did say that. I tried to give an understanding look
> to the mother and said to her and to Annie, "It's o.k., Juliet wants to keep
> those particular toys to herself right now. Let's go find something else."
> But probably what I said sounded like veiled criticism to the mother,
> because she didn't know where precisely I was coming from.
>
> I think on the basis of your suggestions, I can imagine in a future
> situation trying to accomplish the same end as you're aiming for, but by
> slightly different means.
>
> I *could* see trying to take the issue further by talking from my own
> experience, about how we have thought about dealing with "sharing", that
> Annie doesn't have to give up anything just because someone else wants it,
> etc. and trying to recognize the mother's embarrassment, however misplaced,
> rather than point out her logical flaws.
>
> As an acquaintance who is a diversity trainer (strange phrase, but that's
> what she calls it) said, "There's a lot of fear". She always tries to think
> of people resisting change as afraid of something, and help them overcome
> their fears, no matter how heinous they look once they evince themselves as
> behaviors.
> Thanks for the shot in the arm. I really should integrate my past life with
> this one, but I'm so full of doubts and unsurenesses that I've got my hands
> full just trying to be a good mother to Annie! And don't get me started on
> the little girl's "kennel cough", my name for the ubiquitous giveaway of
> kids in daycare...
>
> Carolyn
about the *children* and respect. It's not even about being a "good"
mother.
It's all about the children.
Diane
Carolyn Talarr
Diane wrote:
or respect? That I was reflecting upon the dynamics and tactics of
interacting in these kinds of situations?
I'm not sure what your point is here. In your first reply you wrote a quite
directive, extended imagined roleplay/dialogue with the mother and *only*
the mother. So that must not have been about the children, right?
Carolyn
>Diane, what in my post made you think that I wasn't considering the children
>It's not so much about us (adults/mothers/parents) as it is
>about the *children* and respect. It's not even about being a "good"
>mother.
>
>It's all about the children.
or respect? That I was reflecting upon the dynamics and tactics of
interacting in these kinds of situations?
I'm not sure what your point is here. In your first reply you wrote a quite
directive, extended imagined roleplay/dialogue with the mother and *only*
the mother. So that must not have been about the children, right?
Carolyn
Carolyn Talarr
Hi Susan,
Thanks for replying.
(don't know why this line is appearing on the left side--sorry for the distraction)
You wrote:
the mother may be less confident then it appears which could push her to 'control' her child - a sort of knee jerk reaction to live up to someone else's expectation.
Oh yeah. I've seen this so often at Gymboree or other places where mothers try to force their children to do things because they think everyone else is doing it, etc. I also think that in this case, since both parents were child psychologist/therapists that they really wanted to have their kid be "perfect". OY OY OY.
make comments as you had mentioned but also sit down with the kids and play with them. often the toy is only interesting because another kid is having fun with it. in my experience the fun is what the kids want not the object.
I'm guessing you mean play in general, not play to find a way to make them give up their toys! :) Yes, we did that too. I'm one of those mothers who's down playing with kids at playdates, who's with my kid at a playground--not stifling her (I hope), but there if she wants me, involved and playing too. It's kind of sad sometimes, because other kids start talking to me and showing me what they can do, etc. while their mothers are off chatting and it feels to me that they'd really like *their* mothers to be there to see the same things. (just a side note)
You then wrote:
yes, they hit and get mad and lots of other 'frustrating' kinds of things but we do have to be careful not to make them out to be so self-conscious, deliberate and thought out.
A man at our Ethical culture meeting recently told a story about how he found a little boy throwing rocks at a squirrel in a tree. He was internally appalled but then he asked the little boy *why* he was doing it. The boy replied "so I can get the squirrel to come down and I can take care of him and have him as a pet." Man. That story has stayed with me. I always try to ask Annie (even at her age--I hope that it will rub off) what she's trying to do when something happens that surprises me.
You continued:
what i find that helped me and saved me from feeling like the worst mom ever, was to have great compassion for myself and others (whether they 'deserved' it or not:) because by doing this i kind of forced myself to accept the fact that i can't control really anything, not what others said, not they way others raised their kids, nor my own son. once i understood that he had the right to develop and not be controlled, i realized his behavior was merely a reflection of his relationship to the world and that that relationship was facilitated not only by me but by his age and every other relationship he had. what i needed to do was to interpret what he was communication.
This end-part sounds kind of like the ethical culture story...but I'd really appreciate it if you would say more on "his behavior was a reflection of his relationship to the world", either on- or off-list.
one day rene' was stomping around (he was around 3) mad and said he wanted to be a 'daycare kid', that he didn't want to be with me, he wanted to be next door. (snip)
this was the best he could do to communicate that he was not happy and something needed to change. he was right, we changed and life's better for all of us.
That's a very instructive story, especially in the health-situation I'm in right now. Thanks.
respect, faith and observation are key. the best part of parenting is experiencing all the growth, the worst part is that they have the uncanny knack for magnifying all your weaknesses :0 don't let your doubt override your natural good sense, but i think having the doubt now is a good thing because you'll be ready for what's to come:)
Your lips to God's ears! (or nature's ears, or whatever...:)
Thanks for your thoughts...
Carolyn
Thanks for replying.
(don't know why this line is appearing on the left side--sorry for the distraction)
You wrote:
the mother may be less confident then it appears which could push her to 'control' her child - a sort of knee jerk reaction to live up to someone else's expectation.
Oh yeah. I've seen this so often at Gymboree or other places where mothers try to force their children to do things because they think everyone else is doing it, etc. I also think that in this case, since both parents were child psychologist/therapists that they really wanted to have their kid be "perfect". OY OY OY.
make comments as you had mentioned but also sit down with the kids and play with them. often the toy is only interesting because another kid is having fun with it. in my experience the fun is what the kids want not the object.
I'm guessing you mean play in general, not play to find a way to make them give up their toys! :) Yes, we did that too. I'm one of those mothers who's down playing with kids at playdates, who's with my kid at a playground--not stifling her (I hope), but there if she wants me, involved and playing too. It's kind of sad sometimes, because other kids start talking to me and showing me what they can do, etc. while their mothers are off chatting and it feels to me that they'd really like *their* mothers to be there to see the same things. (just a side note)
You then wrote:
yes, they hit and get mad and lots of other 'frustrating' kinds of things but we do have to be careful not to make them out to be so self-conscious, deliberate and thought out.
A man at our Ethical culture meeting recently told a story about how he found a little boy throwing rocks at a squirrel in a tree. He was internally appalled but then he asked the little boy *why* he was doing it. The boy replied "so I can get the squirrel to come down and I can take care of him and have him as a pet." Man. That story has stayed with me. I always try to ask Annie (even at her age--I hope that it will rub off) what she's trying to do when something happens that surprises me.
You continued:
what i find that helped me and saved me from feeling like the worst mom ever, was to have great compassion for myself and others (whether they 'deserved' it or not:) because by doing this i kind of forced myself to accept the fact that i can't control really anything, not what others said, not they way others raised their kids, nor my own son. once i understood that he had the right to develop and not be controlled, i realized his behavior was merely a reflection of his relationship to the world and that that relationship was facilitated not only by me but by his age and every other relationship he had. what i needed to do was to interpret what he was communication.
This end-part sounds kind of like the ethical culture story...but I'd really appreciate it if you would say more on "his behavior was a reflection of his relationship to the world", either on- or off-list.
one day rene' was stomping around (he was around 3) mad and said he wanted to be a 'daycare kid', that he didn't want to be with me, he wanted to be next door. (snip)
this was the best he could do to communicate that he was not happy and something needed to change. he was right, we changed and life's better for all of us.
That's a very instructive story, especially in the health-situation I'm in right now. Thanks.
respect, faith and observation are key. the best part of parenting is experiencing all the growth, the worst part is that they have the uncanny knack for magnifying all your weaknesses :0 don't let your doubt override your natural good sense, but i think having the doubt now is a good thing because you'll be ready for what's to come:)
Your lips to God's ears! (or nature's ears, or whatever...:)
Thanks for your thoughts...
Carolyn
Thad Martin
carolyn,
i think we're on the same page. i want to take sometime and respond to
your email but don't really have it right now but soon.
-susan
austin,tx
i think we're on the same page. i want to take sometime and respond to
your email but don't really have it right now but soon.
-susan
austin,tx
McBryan Alignan
Carolyn Talarr wrote:
daughter and who was prompting her to share when the child clearly did
not want to. The information that the child is alright in feeling
this way is important for the mother to know.
I thought there were excellent suggestions about affirming the
child's wishes - to the child as well. I've spoken to a child this
way - and this seems to be a more delicate and gracious approach.
The mother in the story is very important, though. My thoughts were
to offer up the child's position in a positive light. Certainly,
this may not be easy - but my point is, we owe it to children to speak
up. Some mothers do not realize that it is ok for their children to
have and not focus constantly on giving so much up. Certainly, too,
no one wants to insult any mother.I offered up the conversation
between two mothers to show that it is about the *issue* at hand -
and not about offending anyone's mothering. I just wanted to say,
go ahead and say a feeling for the child's sake if you feel there is
an injustice going down.
Diane McBryan Alignan
>No, it is about children but it is the *mother* who was controlling the
> From: "Carolyn Talarr" <talarr@...>
>
> Diane wrote:
> >
> >It's not so much about us (adults/mothers/parents) as it is
> >about the *children* and respect. It's not even about being a "good"
> >mother.
> >
> >It's all about the children.
> I'm not sure what your point is here. In your first reply you wrote a quite
> directive, extended imagined roleplay/dialogue with the mother and *only*
> the mother. So that must not have been about the children, right?
daughter and who was prompting her to share when the child clearly did
not want to. The information that the child is alright in feeling
this way is important for the mother to know.
I thought there were excellent suggestions about affirming the
child's wishes - to the child as well. I've spoken to a child this
way - and this seems to be a more delicate and gracious approach.
The mother in the story is very important, though. My thoughts were
to offer up the child's position in a positive light. Certainly,
this may not be easy - but my point is, we owe it to children to speak
up. Some mothers do not realize that it is ok for their children to
have and not focus constantly on giving so much up. Certainly, too,
no one wants to insult any mother.I offered up the conversation
between two mothers to show that it is about the *issue* at hand -
and not about offending anyone's mothering. I just wanted to say,
go ahead and say a feeling for the child's sake if you feel there is
an injustice going down.
Diane McBryan Alignan