Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

Well, kids are in bed and we've had quite a day.

I mentioned in another post that my dh and I took the kids out for
breakfast today and shared with them that we'd like to change
from the more controlled style of homeschooling back to the
unstructured kind we used to do when they were younger. (It
wasn't until reading this list that I realized just how far away I
had gotten from that philosophy!)

Also, I had never considered not monitoring computer, TV or X
box use. I am so tired of being the "turn monitor" as in, who gets
to go on next for how long.

As we shared with them, their eyes got so wide. Certain
comments were expected, "But Mom, you still want us doing our
math and science and grammar, right?"

"Actually honey, that's up to you now. If you'd like to continue, you
may but I am not requiring it."

"But I have a science test today and I studied for it!"

"I know. You can still take it if you like. But you don't have to."

Eyes grow two sizes.

Next child (8) says, "Okay, I'll play on the X Box for 97 hours a
day!" (Clearly this child hasn't been reading his math book <g>)
He looks at us with testing eyes.

My dh says, "That's fine, except you may need to sleep in there
some time." Blank stare and shock.

My oldest beams and gets it right away. He almost gets tears in
his eyes thinking that he can finally devote hours to playing guitar
and piano, not just thirty minutes a day.

Middle child looks appalled. "How can we still learn math if we
don't do it every day? How will we be ready for high school or
college?" (I can see I've instilled that thinking thoroughly.)

I carefully explained many of the things you all shared with me
yesterday and then my dh added his pov based on his
experience with bored college kids.

So far so good.

Brought up the Digital camcorder idea and they all went wild.
Suddenly being at home sounded so exciting!

We went home with some euphoria. Headed straight to the
library and we checked out such cool books and videos. Dd (13)
has an interest in tree frogs! Who knew? She got a book on
temporary tattos that you can make at home. She checked out so
many books on India you'd think she was about to write a
research paper.

Other finds: military books and DDay videos. The history of rock
music. Casablanca (the video). Decorating ideas to transform
the girls' room. Cookbooks for the middle child. Lots of movies
and books of all sorts for the youngest girl, who still wants to
learn to read, Mom..

Came home and the X Box went on instantly. But dd (13)
suddenly started to cry. "They should do some school first,
shouldn't they? And would you really let us listen to
Eminem if we wanted to? Just say no. You can say no. I want you
to be my mother. You have to tell me what to do. I would be on IM
all day and then I'll go nowhere and never go to college. That isn't
good for me. Mothers are supposed to set rules so I can rebel
against them." She started to chuckle through her tears.

It was amazing. I realized then just how much more controlling
I've been than I even realized (and let me tell you, we are really
lenient parents for our peer group). I let her know that I trust her,
that her insights into herself will be a tremendous guide to not
wasting her life and I handed her the Teenage Liberation
handbook. :-)

Later we all watched Huckleberry Finn together.

At bedtime tonight, my middle boy came downstairs crying. He
doesn't want to change our lifestyle. He likes being given
assignments. He likes tests. He likes our read aloud times. He
likes dictation. I told him that I had every intention of reading
aloud to him still and that anything he loves to do we would
continue to do. But then I saw the real issue. He's a pleaser and
what he wants is for me to set the agenda so he can perform *for
me.* This will take some time to navigate.

But I am hoping that we can work together to set goals that he
values and hits rather than needing to be the "good boy" who
does what I tell him to.

Anyway, lots to process. I still don't know where the line is
between letting them learn what interests them and the natural
process of limiting their exposure to questionable material (such
as song lyrics that are inappropriate for young kids, or movies
that are too adult...). We do feel that we must draw those lines,
still. How have you all handled this?

Thanks for your input yesterday. I feel like I have a new lease on
life with the kids. I'm sure I'll have new questions every day, but
for today, this is such a relief. I really had started to think that
I ought to use the school system.

But this feels like home.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/6/2003 10:48:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
> Anyway, lots to process. I still don't know where the line is
> between letting them learn what interests them and the natural
> process of limiting their exposure to questionable material (such
> as song lyrics that are inappropriate for young kids, or movies
> that are too adult...). We do feel that we must draw those lines,
> still. How have you all handled this?
>

This got discussed a little at supper tonight.

We don't limit exposure to anything. We figure that if they're uncomfortable
with something, they won't watch, do, listen to, be around whatever makes
them uncomfortable (and we all have personal limits). I certainly don't
censor language. But Cameron has taken to drawing/writing on his clothes
(usually VERY artfully). There is a band he likes called "CKY" (Camp Kill
Yourself). The initials encourage some "toying" with, and he'd added "fu" and
"ou" to the band's name to get "fuCKYou"---on the sweatshirt. I asked that he
please not wear that sweatshirt when he goes out to eat with me---to save it
for wearing with his buddies. His grandparents might be a bit offended by it.
He agreed and apologized for not thinking about it before we left the house.

I think mostly it's a matter of appropriateness.

As for lyrics and movies, I think a child who has a choice will be more
selective. He won't watch/listen to something out of defiance, but out of
real curiosity or desire.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley <[email protected]>

> Thanks for your input yesterday. I feel like I have a new lease
on
> life with the kids. I'm sure I'll have new questions every day, but
> for today, this is such a relief. I really had started to think that
> I ought to use the school system.
>
> But this feels like home.


Well *this* is a lovely post to come back to! :) Welcome, Julie,
and I look forward to reading all your questions, I am certain the
questions themselves will be an asset to the list.

Pam

Betsy

**At bedtime tonight, my middle boy came downstairs crying. He
doesn't want to change our lifestyle. He likes being given
assignments. He likes tests. He likes our read aloud times. He
likes dictation. I told him that I had every intention of reading
aloud to him still and that anything he loves to do we would
continue to do. But then I saw the real issue. He's a pleaser and
what he wants is for me to set the agenda so he can perform *for
me.* This will take some time to navigate.**


Hi, Julie --

Your posts are really making me ponder. I greatly appreciate your
willingness to open up and share about your life in this way.

As I was reading, I agreed when you said "anything he loves to do we
would continue to do". And then I read further and started to wonder if
my instincts were right. (Just as you seem to be wondering.)

I'll be fascinated to see what everyone has to say and how this
situation eventually works out for you.

For now I have two thoughts:

1) I think it's okay to keep the same timetables as before but make
everything optional. When you would normally give an assignment or
test, ask "would you like me to give you an assignment (or test)?" When
you would normally give dictation, ask "would you like to do dictation
now?". When you would normally read aloud ask "would you like me to
read aloud now?"

For some kids having the same things *offered* at the same times might
be comforting. Your son may say "Yes" to the familiar things for
awhile, but I think eventually he'll feel free to say "Nah, I'm already
doing this other thing and I don't want to stop." It may not even take long!

2) Maybe giving a lot of approval all the time, not dependent on
performance, will help a kid who's oriented towards "pleasing". I'm
suggesting you be pleased with him without him having to perform for it.
(I'm not trying to imply any criticism of you, just trying to guess how
he might be wired.)

**But I am hoping that we can work together to set goals that he
values and hits rather than needing to be the "good boy" who
does what I tell him to.**

Oh, yeah. Sometimes kids with the biggest goals have trouble breaking
them down into do-able steps. I think that's a potential place for a
parent to help.

Betsy

Tia Leschke

But Cameron has taken to drawing/writing on his clothes
> (usually VERY artfully). There is a band he likes called "CKY" (Camp Kill
> Yourself). The initials encourage some "toying" with, and he'd added "fu"
and
> "ou" to the band's name to get "fuCKYou"---on the sweatshirt. I asked that
he
> please not wear that sweatshirt when he goes out to eat with me---to save
it
> for wearing with his buddies. His grandparents might be a bit offended by
it.
> He agreed and apologized for not thinking about it before we left the
house.

LOL! My son bought one that had a man and a woman on it. The man is
leading a rooster on a leash and the woman has a cat. You can guess what
each of them says in the speech bubble. "Nice ". I told him that
even though it's funny, I'd rather he wear it when he's not out with me.

He told me about another one he didn't buy. It says The Extinction of the
Stick Figures, or something like that. It's got two stick figures having
sex. The friction is causing them to catch fire. <g>
Tia

Gerard Westenberg

<I told him that I had every intention of reading
aloud to him still and that anything he loves to do we would
continue to do. >

Sandra had some great advice ( as always), awhile ago on the unschooling message board on a similar issue. I can't find it atm, but she basically said that kids sometimes feel lost if we try to change too many things at once - they wonder what is up with their parents NOW. :-) And how long this will last...

I have a frienid who "tried unschooling" for a couple of weeks and then went back to CM and unit studies ços she said her kids were crying and asking for schoolwork. It seemed to me that her she and her kids were unsure of what to put in place of set school routines - so, put nothing in place and then felt lost and unconnected. Perhaps it is a similar issue for your son?

It was really helpful for me to think of what we did on holiday ( vacations). What routines are in place then? What activities do we do - by ourselves or together. We just started living each day as a holiday - reading together, cooking together, watching videos and talking, going out to places we wanted to see, to the library. Doing this, we found our pace and the kids and I also bonded together in different ways and found new interests - without pressure.

BTW, I still read aloud to my kids - to different groups/kids at a time ( I have 7 kids). I read books of their choice; I ask if now will be a good time for me to read aloud , if they want,if they look like needing direction, if we are sharing a snack, or when hands are otherwise engaged...Leonie W.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

I read your post and started to weep. Thank you for sharing your
reflections and courageous new insights. I'm sure I don't need to say it
but I will anyway. Keep going!



Best wishes,

Robyn Coburn







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/7/03 12:27:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, leschke@...
writes:

> LOL! My son bought one that had a man and a woman on it. The man is
> leading a rooster on a leash and the woman has a cat. You can guess what
> each of them says in the speech bubble. "Nice ". I told him that
> even though it's funny, I'd rather he wear it when he's not out with me.
>
> He told me about another one he didn't buy. It says The Extinction of the
> Stick Figures, or something like that. It's got two stick figures having
> sex. The friction is causing them to catch fire. <g>
> Tia
>

Those are hilarious. Landon would laugh at them, and "appreciate" thier
humor, but he probably wouldnt wear them.. Thats because he has a strict
"don't stand out" philosophy about clothing. He doesnt wear anything with
logos or brand names on it (showing predominantly) No bright colors or
patterns.. Mostly black, white, navy and khaki. and denim. He doesnt want to
be identified by his attire. He wants his personality and uniqueness to be
evident in other ways besides flashy clothes. Its like, he has friends who
are "goths", "cowboy folk" , punk rock looking alternative style wearing
folks, "granolas", "grungies". and those that only wear high fashion trendy
clothes.. He likes them all, but he doesnt really identify with one
particular group. He choses his friends based on thier personalities and how
much he enjoys being around them.

I think Ethan and JP will be different.and thier tastes in clothing will be
more eclectic.. JP already likes to wear "cool clothes" and have a "cool
haircut" Ethan wanted a black leather bomber jacket for Christmas so he
could look "cool" Anna is more like Landon, although, her main objective is
"looking good" in her clothes. And, she doesnt want to wear anything that
looks "too old" LOL.. But, she is also very conservative in her attire.
She's not comfortable in short skirts or tight pants or low cut shirts. No
complaints here.. :-)

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

We are also just delving into our lives with the unrestricted movie watching, we were all watching Matrix, (This is a big step for me! It's an R movie, oh no!) My 5 decided it was boring my 8 and 9 loved it, and we had lots of conversations about virtual reality, violence, and language appropriateness.

The sharing that goes on while we are watching is amazing. The togetherness is wonderful.

Kelli

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:In a message dated 1/6/2003 10:48:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
> Anyway, lots to process. I still don't know where the line is
> between letting them learn what interests them and the natural
> process of limiting their exposure to questionable material (such
> as song lyrics that are inappropriate for young kids, or movies
> that are too adult...). We do feel that we must draw those lines,
> still. How have you all handled this?
>

This got discussed a little at supper tonight.

We don't limit exposure to anything. We figure that if they're uncomfortable
with something, they won't watch, do, listen to, be around whatever makes
them uncomfortable (and we all have personal limits). I certainly don't
censor language. But Cameron has taken to drawing/writing on his clothes
(usually VERY artfully). There is a band he likes called "CKY" (Camp Kill
Yourself). The initials encourage some "toying" with, and he'd added "fu" and
"ou" to the band's name to get "fuCKYou"---on the sweatshirt. I asked that he
please not wear that sweatshirt when he goes out to eat with me---to save it
for wearing with his buddies. His grandparents might be a bit offended by it.
He agreed and apologized for not thinking about it before we left the house.

I think mostly it's a matter of appropriateness.

As for lyrics and movies, I think a child who has a choice will be more
selective. He won't watch/listen to something out of defiance, but out of
real curiosity or desire.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/7/2003 11:28:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
curtkar@... writes:


> Julie - I really enjoyed reading your first day reflections and how you took
> the time to document how each of your children responded to your
> unschooling
> announcement.
> Thanks for sharing. :-)

And you ought to print it out and keep it somewhere safe. To be pulled out in
four or five years when someone asks you about your path! <G>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/6/03 8:48:54 PM, julie@... writes:
[lots about a suddenly-different day]

Julie that was fun and kinda scary to read! I do feel sympathetic to the
kids being scared. It's not like you said "Let's think about making this
change." You just jerked the school rug right out from under them at a
public restaurant!! LOL!

But this, I wanted to say something about:

<< She checked out so
many books on India you'd think she was about to write a
research paper. >>

My first thought would have been "you'd think she was about to GO there."
and my second thought was "you'd think she was really INTERESTED."

But "research paper" would not have been in my top ten.
So it was interesting to me that you saw a pile of books as part of the
writing of a research paper.

Does anyone here still have the link to the article about the computer set
in the wall in India? That might be a good thing for Julie's family to see
right now!!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/6/03 9:19:04 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< As for lyrics and movies, I think a child who has a choice will be more
selective. He won't watch/listen to something out of defiance, but out of
real curiosity or desire. >>

I agree. They can't POSSIBLY make a choice designed to shock their parents
if their parents are going to say, "Okay, if you think that's interesting..."
(Or just "okay.")

But I suppose there are people who would think I was a TERRIBLE mom because
my boys saw the South Park movie in the theatre. (Would it make them think I
was a better mom if they had to bribe a wino to get them in? Probably. But
I took them myself. With two other adults, so each boy was between two
adults. We made Holly wait for video. Then we got the CD so we could learn
the words.

The point of that whole thing (which is a musical, with lots of parody of
specific and general other musicals, jokes which Holly pretty much got!) is
that hearing bad words doesn't ruin someone's life, although wars are fought
over things that petty.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

> Those are hilarious. Landon would laugh at them, and "appreciate" thier
> humor, but he probably wouldnt wear them.. Thats because he has a strict
> "don't stand out" philosophy about clothing. He doesnt wear anything with
> logos or brand names on it (showing predominantly) No bright colors or
> patterns.. Mostly black, white, navy and khaki. and denim. He doesnt want
to
> be identified by his attire. He wants his personality and uniqueness to
be
> evident in other ways besides flashy clothes. Its like, he has friends
who
> are "goths", "cowboy folk" , punk rock looking alternative style wearing
> folks, "granolas", "grungies". and those that only wear high fashion
trendy
> clothes.. He likes them all, but he doesnt really identify with one
> particular group. He choses his friends based on thier personalities and
how
> much he enjoys being around them.

When my step-daughter was in high school, she liked to put on a completely
different style each day so the other kids couldn't pigeon-hole her into one
group.
Tia

Mary Bianco

>From: "Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...>

<<Anyway, lots to process. I still don't know where the line is
between letting them learn what interests them and the natural
process of limiting their exposure to questionable material (such
as song lyrics that are inappropriate for young kids, or movies
that are too adult...). We do feel that we must draw those lines,
still. How have you all handled this?>>


First of all Julie, I really enjoyed reading your post. It seemed so full of
promise and joy, I smiled the whole time reading it.

As far as drawing lines, you may find that what you start out with ends up
looking different. I think this may be the hardest of things to let go of. I
still tend to cringe inside when my 7 and 8 year olds watch a moivie where
the F word flies around like birds. Doesn't phase them in the least and I
have never heard them use that word......yet. <BG> My oldest was raised
pretty much the same way and is very polite around those she "should" be
polite around, being a wonderfully enchanting almost 17 year old. Has no
problem telling us stories in her language or cussing like a sailor when
she's mad at a friend! It's all find with me, after all, I'm pretty much the
same way!!

The one thing that was hard for me was the sexual situations in movies. I
remember with my oldest just not allowing her to see stuff too racey as far
as I was concerned. Not really sure when that changed. I know she was seeing
R rated movies much earlier than most of her friends were allowed to. Then
again, her friends were sneaking in and I was buying her tickets so she
could get in. Never had a problem because of it. My son doesn't like sexual
situations and chooses not to watch. It makes him uncomfortable and so we
rent accordingly. He also doesn't like anything too scary so we respect that
also. His sister just happens to go along with right now. The 2 year old
could care less about what's on TV so we don't worry. She's never in the
room long enough to have it be an issue!

My oldest listens to some pretty racey music language wise, she has always
on her own turned it off if the little ones wanted to be with her in her
room. She does the same if a movie is on she knows won't set right with
them. We are not and either is she fanatical about it though. There are
times when it is on and no one seems to notice.

Mary B





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Karin

julie@... wrote:

> Well, kids are in bed and we've had quite a day.
>
>
> As we shared with them, their eyes got so wide. Certain
> comments were expected, "But Mom, you still want us doing our
> math and science and grammar, right?"
>
> "Actually honey, that's up to you now. If you'd like to continue, you
> may but I am not requiring it."


Julie - I really enjoyed reading your first day reflections and how you took
the time to document how each of your children responded to your unschooling
announcement.
Thanks for sharing. :-)

Karin

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/7/03 1:11:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, leschke@...
writes:

> When my step-daughter was in high school, she liked to put on a completely
> different style each day so the other kids couldn't pigeon-hole her into
> one
> group.
>

Thats a neat idea too.. Thats kind of how I have always been in my
appearance. I pretty much go however the mood strikes me. I know some
folks may have been accustomed to seeing me in sweat pants, t-shirts,
"knockaround"" clothes when I dropped my kids off or picked them up for
stuff.. Then BAM.. one day I show up in a dress and heels and all the glam
stuff.. They look at me like.. WHO are you?? I might dress up to go to the
library, or throw on a pair of shorts to and put my hair in a headband to go
to a meeting. Its fun to keep folks guessing.. *EG

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

I loved that article, someone may have already responded, but it is: www.greenstar.org/butterflies/hole-in-the-wall

That was one of my printouts to give to my fil.

Kelli


SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 1/6/03 8:48:54 PM, julie@... writes:
[lots about a suddenly-different day]

Julie that was fun and kinda scary to read! I do feel sympathetic to the
kids being scared. It's not like you said "Let's think about making this
change." You just jerked the school rug right out from under them at a
public restaurant!! LOL!

But this, I wanted to say something about:

<< She checked out so
many books on India you'd think she was about to write a
research paper. >>

My first thought would have been "you'd think she was about to GO there."
and my second thought was "you'd think she was really INTERESTED."

But "research paper" would not have been in my top ten.
So it was interesting to me that you saw a pile of books as part of the
writing of a research paper.

Does anyone here still have the link to the article about the computer set
in the wall in India? That might be a good thing for Julie's family to see
right now!!

Sandra


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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

Kelli Traaseth wrote:

> We are also just delving into our lives with the unrestricted movie watching, we were all watching Matrix, (This is a big step for me! It's an R movie, oh no!) My 5 decided it was boring my 8 and 9 loved it, and we had lots of conversations about virtual reality, violence, and language appropriateness.
>
> The sharing that goes on while we are watching is amazing. The togetherness is wonderful.
>
> Kelli
>

Nice one Kelli, especially choice of movie. The Matrix is our favourite movie.
We watch it about once a fortnight with all the attendant questions about how do we *know* we're not inside a computer.

Shyrley

Jon and Rue Kream

>>>> Does anyone here still have the link to the article about the
computer set
in the wall in India?

Google: 'Hole in the wall India' brought up lots of links. ~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]