Re: Perfectionism
Thad Martin
hi
i think that this is a normal part of trying to have power in the world and
expressing it. so in that way there is nothing to worry about, but ones
ego does needs to be balanced by ones curiosity, so meeting and having a
good relationship with challenges is very important. if one doesn't learn
to appreciate the challenges life offers then one will most likely end up
playing it safe. for me unschooling has to do with the relationship
between the person and the unknown, not the known (because you're not
really learning if it's too easy). so being a perfectionist (which is
what traditional education promotes) is a good thing when used to do
something well, but not good if it limits you to doing only things which
you know you can do well.
that said, on a practical level, my son is exactly as you describe, if he
try (s) something, but ...can't do it well, he immediately says, "Oh, I
don't want to do this anymore." so what i've done is find something
similar: a puzzle, a computer game, a model, fixing the sink, anything
concrete and visible, and struggle with it in front of him. for example
i'm really poor musically and we had just bought a cd rom called 'yoda's
challenge' which has a music component, you have to beat out the exact
rhythm to trigger a trap. i struggled with this, but after more than a
dozen attempts and trying different tricks i did repeatedly succeed,
thereby learning a bit about keeping rhythm . at the same time i talked
to him about the nature of the word 'challenge' and how much fun it really
was to take on challenges, because when you finally succeed it is the best
feeling, the feeling of accomplishment, and this feels much better than
doing something that you knew you could do. then you just wait and keep
encouraging them.
what i find is that we, as a society, get very enthusiastic when we do
something right but we pretty much ignore the really great attempts that
fail. i think this is a real problem because most great things
(inventions, idea etc.) are preceded by many, many failures. so if we can
teach our children to not fear failures but to learn from them and to
actually relish them for what these failures teach, then our kids will
become life long learners. failures are great opportunities for us to not
only expand our knowledge but to face our fears and challenge them.
-susan
austin,tx
"A. Yates" wrote:
i think that this is a normal part of trying to have power in the world and
expressing it. so in that way there is nothing to worry about, but ones
ego does needs to be balanced by ones curiosity, so meeting and having a
good relationship with challenges is very important. if one doesn't learn
to appreciate the challenges life offers then one will most likely end up
playing it safe. for me unschooling has to do with the relationship
between the person and the unknown, not the known (because you're not
really learning if it's too easy). so being a perfectionist (which is
what traditional education promotes) is a good thing when used to do
something well, but not good if it limits you to doing only things which
you know you can do well.
that said, on a practical level, my son is exactly as you describe, if he
try (s) something, but ...can't do it well, he immediately says, "Oh, I
don't want to do this anymore." so what i've done is find something
similar: a puzzle, a computer game, a model, fixing the sink, anything
concrete and visible, and struggle with it in front of him. for example
i'm really poor musically and we had just bought a cd rom called 'yoda's
challenge' which has a music component, you have to beat out the exact
rhythm to trigger a trap. i struggled with this, but after more than a
dozen attempts and trying different tricks i did repeatedly succeed,
thereby learning a bit about keeping rhythm . at the same time i talked
to him about the nature of the word 'challenge' and how much fun it really
was to take on challenges, because when you finally succeed it is the best
feeling, the feeling of accomplishment, and this feels much better than
doing something that you knew you could do. then you just wait and keep
encouraging them.
what i find is that we, as a society, get very enthusiastic when we do
something right but we pretty much ignore the really great attempts that
fail. i think this is a real problem because most great things
(inventions, idea etc.) are preceded by many, many failures. so if we can
teach our children to not fear failures but to learn from them and to
actually relish them for what these failures teach, then our kids will
become life long learners. failures are great opportunities for us to not
only expand our knowledge but to face our fears and challenge them.
-susan
austin,tx
"A. Yates" wrote:
> From: "A. Yates" <hooperck@...>
>
> I saw someone during the spelling posts mention their child is a
> perfectionist. But, I can't find the post.
> Here's my question. My son is 6 and he is a perfectionist. Or maybe he
> is just afraid to admit to others and himself he doesn't know
> something. (Geee... I know someone like that....ME) (or, I used to
> be) Anyway, he may try something, but if he can't do it well, he
> immediately says, "Oh, I don't want to do this anymore."
> He doesn't read yet, and won't try. Puzzles, games, drawing.... on and
> on and on.
> How should I handle this? I can't push, I know how awful it is to feel
> like a failure at everything. Should I just let it go, and let him pick
> it up when he wants to?
> I have tried talking to him about. Telling him I understand, and that I
> used to be the same way, and that now I realize that I don't have to do
> everything perfectly, just be happy with what I can do, and that with
> time I will get better, and things will come easier.
> Sometimes this behavior frustrates me, and sometimes it tears my hair
> out.
> Any ideas O wise Mommies?
> Ann
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
A. Yates
I saw someone during the spelling posts mention their child is a
perfectionist. But, I can't find the post.
Here's my question. My son is 6 and he is a perfectionist. Or maybe he
is just afraid to admit to others and himself he doesn't know
something. (Geee... I know someone like that....ME) (or, I used to
be) Anyway, he may try something, but if he can't do it well, he
immediately says, "Oh, I don't want to do this anymore."
He doesn't read yet, and won't try. Puzzles, games, drawing.... on and
on and on.
How should I handle this? I can't push, I know how awful it is to feel
like a failure at everything. Should I just let it go, and let him pick
it up when he wants to?
I have tried talking to him about. Telling him I understand, and that I
used to be the same way, and that now I realize that I don't have to do
everything perfectly, just be happy with what I can do, and that with
time I will get better, and things will come easier.
Sometimes this behavior frustrates me, and sometimes it tears my hair
out.
Any ideas O wise Mommies?
Ann
perfectionist. But, I can't find the post.
Here's my question. My son is 6 and he is a perfectionist. Or maybe he
is just afraid to admit to others and himself he doesn't know
something. (Geee... I know someone like that....ME) (or, I used to
be) Anyway, he may try something, but if he can't do it well, he
immediately says, "Oh, I don't want to do this anymore."
He doesn't read yet, and won't try. Puzzles, games, drawing.... on and
on and on.
How should I handle this? I can't push, I know how awful it is to feel
like a failure at everything. Should I just let it go, and let him pick
it up when he wants to?
I have tried talking to him about. Telling him I understand, and that I
used to be the same way, and that now I realize that I don't have to do
everything perfectly, just be happy with what I can do, and that with
time I will get better, and things will come easier.
Sometimes this behavior frustrates me, and sometimes it tears my hair
out.
Any ideas O wise Mommies?
Ann
[email protected]
I think it helps to point out to kids that experts, artists, and
professionals aren't satisfied with everything they produce. How many
photos did Ansel Adams take before he had one he was willing to print out
for other people to enjoy? How many times did Edison start over with the
light bulb? It is extremely rare to do something right the first time.
A friend was looking at my baby's photo album (first child, #2's pictures
are all in a box!) and commented on what wonderful pictures I take. I
explained that I'm thrilled to get 4 out of 24 that are worth keeping. I
throw the rest away, or give them to the kids to cut up for art projects.
It can also help to verbalize during our own efforts. "These muffins
didn't turn out the way I wanted them too. Next time I'll add more milk"
That sort of thing. So they realize that less than perfect can be OK.
Mary Ellen
Seek joy in what you give, not in what you get.
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
professionals aren't satisfied with everything they produce. How many
photos did Ansel Adams take before he had one he was willing to print out
for other people to enjoy? How many times did Edison start over with the
light bulb? It is extremely rare to do something right the first time.
A friend was looking at my baby's photo album (first child, #2's pictures
are all in a box!) and commented on what wonderful pictures I take. I
explained that I'm thrilled to get 4 out of 24 that are worth keeping. I
throw the rest away, or give them to the kids to cut up for art projects.
It can also help to verbalize during our own efforts. "These muffins
didn't turn out the way I wanted them too. Next time I'll add more milk"
That sort of thing. So they realize that less than perfect can be OK.
Mary Ellen
Seek joy in what you give, not in what you get.
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Carol D. Wickwire
Ann,
Regarding perfectionism... our 17 year old has always been thus. It was
frustrating for me as a parent because I am "not" a perfectionist, at
least not in all things. :) We have discovered, over the course of many
years, that she does not want us to "solve" her problems, she just wants
a sympathetic ear. I hastened to help her when she was very young,
because I knew that major frustrations could cause an outbreak of tears.
Of course, that just made her angrier. Perfectionist kids grow up to be
perfectionist adults. She is a classic first child, over achiever.
Everything she does, she does well, to the best of her ability. That's
not to say that there are not people who perform better than her... but
she definitely puts forth 200% effort in all she does.
Carol Wickwire <*)))><
Angeli 17, Amber 16, Amanda 14 and Adam 11
Homeschooling For the Glory of God at Oceanside Academy
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Florida-homeschool
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the
world, love for the Father is not in him." 1 John 15
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Regarding perfectionism... our 17 year old has always been thus. It was
frustrating for me as a parent because I am "not" a perfectionist, at
least not in all things. :) We have discovered, over the course of many
years, that she does not want us to "solve" her problems, she just wants
a sympathetic ear. I hastened to help her when she was very young,
because I knew that major frustrations could cause an outbreak of tears.
Of course, that just made her angrier. Perfectionist kids grow up to be
perfectionist adults. She is a classic first child, over achiever.
Everything she does, she does well, to the best of her ability. That's
not to say that there are not people who perform better than her... but
she definitely puts forth 200% effort in all she does.
Carol Wickwire <*)))><
Angeli 17, Amber 16, Amanda 14 and Adam 11
Homeschooling For the Glory of God at Oceanside Academy
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Florida-homeschool
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the
world, love for the Father is not in him." 1 John 15
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
[email protected]
I heard an interview on the radio just today. Some guy who used to work
at Apple computer and has a bunch of inventions. He said they were not
succeeding unless 80% of their work FAILED! (It was on NPR, Fresh Air
maybe?)
Mary Ellen
Seek joy in what you give, not in what you get.
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
at Apple computer and has a bunch of inventions. He said they were not
succeeding unless 80% of their work FAILED! (It was on NPR, Fresh Air
maybe?)
Mary Ellen
Seek joy in what you give, not in what you get.
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/99 12:31:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hooperck@... writes:
<< Anyway, he may try something, but if he can't do it well, he
immediately says, "Oh, I don't want to do this anymore."
He doesn't read yet, and won't try. Puzzles, games, drawing.... on and
on and on.
How should I handle this? I can't push, I know how awful it is to feel
like a failure at everything. Should I just let it go, and let him pick
it up when he wants to? >>
My son has always been much the same way. Vie never been able to force
him to do stuff, never was inclined anyway. I let it go. He read when he was
9 and reads well. There was lots of pressure from the outside but I tried to
bear most of it to give him time. It worked.
Another thing I do is to involve his brother in something and don't even
ask him. I do this with things I know he will give me flak about (reading
"Little House on the Prairie") It's amazing how many things he joins us at
that we would have argued over. (Of course having a willing sibling is very
helpful here.LOL)
Laura
hooperck@... writes:
<< Anyway, he may try something, but if he can't do it well, he
immediately says, "Oh, I don't want to do this anymore."
He doesn't read yet, and won't try. Puzzles, games, drawing.... on and
on and on.
How should I handle this? I can't push, I know how awful it is to feel
like a failure at everything. Should I just let it go, and let him pick
it up when he wants to? >>
My son has always been much the same way. Vie never been able to force
him to do stuff, never was inclined anyway. I let it go. He read when he was
9 and reads well. There was lots of pressure from the outside but I tried to
bear most of it to give him time. It worked.
Another thing I do is to involve his brother in something and don't even
ask him. I do this with things I know he will give me flak about (reading
"Little House on the Prairie") It's amazing how many things he joins us at
that we would have argued over. (Of course having a willing sibling is very
helpful here.LOL)
Laura
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/99 5:03:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tmartin@... writes:
<< that said, on a practical level, my son is exactly as you describe, if he
try (s) something, but ...can't do it well, he immediately says, "Oh, I
don't want to do this anymore." so what i've done is find something
similar: a puzzle, a computer game, a model, fixing the sink, anything
concrete and visible, and struggle with it in front of him. >>
I also do this with math or anything that gives him problems. He can't
stand to correct work but I can give him the exact problem the next day nad
he will do it and not notice. I know this is not unschooling but we are
de-schooling.
Laura
tmartin@... writes:
<< that said, on a practical level, my son is exactly as you describe, if he
try (s) something, but ...can't do it well, he immediately says, "Oh, I
don't want to do this anymore." so what i've done is find something
similar: a puzzle, a computer game, a model, fixing the sink, anything
concrete and visible, and struggle with it in front of him. >>
I also do this with math or anything that gives him problems. He can't
stand to correct work but I can give him the exact problem the next day nad
he will do it and not notice. I know this is not unschooling but we are
de-schooling.
Laura
[email protected]
Hi people,,
Since i was little i was the classic perfectionist,,,,,,and it ended up
messing up my whole life----until i was 30----because i saw the world as
having the 'right' answers, and me having to fit into what it wanted.
This is probably the main reason i took my daughter out of school. She is
very smart,,,but also very creative,,,and even though she came into
kindergarden with very high 'scores',,,,the creative element,,,and the
'heart',,,,,,were ignored from there on out. She (and i think most kids
naturally) think 'outside the box',,,,,which makes some kind of objective
perfectionism non-existent.
This was my greatest realization for me a few years ago,,,,when i realized i
wasn't stupid (went back to school and was getting a 4.0 after so many years
of feeling inadequate),,,,,, and realized i wasn't weird,,,,just had a
'different' way of seeing things. The whole field of quantam physics proves
the world is much more subjective than ever thought before.
I know my daughter sees things different too,,,,,,and she is very
intuitive,,,,,and the attitude of school,,,,,'there is only this way,,and
this way only' was really cutting into who she is,,,,,,,,soooo,,,
I am trying to balance it,,,,there are logical, stable elements (i.e. 2+2=4),
but I really let her explore the other, creative, non-logical side,,,,,where
there are no 'right' answers,,,,,only ones that show you're actually thinking
:-) It seems in school there is so much emphasis on facts needed to
learn,,,,and no emphasis on things we don't really know about--or, what do
you think about that------without having an immediate 'you're right', 'you're
wrong' response.
Thanks everyone,,,,,,,you're a wonderful support :-) Jennifer
Since i was little i was the classic perfectionist,,,,,,and it ended up
messing up my whole life----until i was 30----because i saw the world as
having the 'right' answers, and me having to fit into what it wanted.
This is probably the main reason i took my daughter out of school. She is
very smart,,,but also very creative,,,and even though she came into
kindergarden with very high 'scores',,,,the creative element,,,and the
'heart',,,,,,were ignored from there on out. She (and i think most kids
naturally) think 'outside the box',,,,,which makes some kind of objective
perfectionism non-existent.
This was my greatest realization for me a few years ago,,,,when i realized i
wasn't stupid (went back to school and was getting a 4.0 after so many years
of feeling inadequate),,,,,, and realized i wasn't weird,,,,just had a
'different' way of seeing things. The whole field of quantam physics proves
the world is much more subjective than ever thought before.
I know my daughter sees things different too,,,,,,and she is very
intuitive,,,,,and the attitude of school,,,,,'there is only this way,,and
this way only' was really cutting into who she is,,,,,,,,soooo,,,
I am trying to balance it,,,,there are logical, stable elements (i.e. 2+2=4),
but I really let her explore the other, creative, non-logical side,,,,,where
there are no 'right' answers,,,,,only ones that show you're actually thinking
:-) It seems in school there is so much emphasis on facts needed to
learn,,,,and no emphasis on things we don't really know about--or, what do
you think about that------without having an immediate 'you're right', 'you're
wrong' response.
Thanks everyone,,,,,,,you're a wonderful support :-) Jennifer
[email protected]
On this topic -- we have a mild case of perfectionism in my son.
Yesterday, he completely startled me by explaining to his younger sister that
you can never really be "perfect." That you can always get better. They
were talking about their piano class. He is older and more advanced than she
and she had commented that he was perfect and therefore was moving to
semi-private lessons and she was staying in a group.
If he gets nothing else out of piano lessons, I will be happy that he learned
this. Apparently the music teacher (who drives me nuts by being totally
disorganized but the kids love him) was able to communicate this or maybe my
son just figured it out, I don't know -- but music was what it took to get
the message thru here.
Good luck.
Nance
Yesterday, he completely startled me by explaining to his younger sister that
you can never really be "perfect." That you can always get better. They
were talking about their piano class. He is older and more advanced than she
and she had commented that he was perfect and therefore was moving to
semi-private lessons and she was staying in a group.
If he gets nothing else out of piano lessons, I will be happy that he learned
this. Apparently the music teacher (who drives me nuts by being totally
disorganized but the kids love him) was able to communicate this or maybe my
son just figured it out, I don't know -- but music was what it took to get
the message thru here.
Good luck.
Nance
sara woodall
> My son has always been much the same way. Vie never been able to forceI can say "ditto" to all you wrote here. I call it "coming in the back door."
> him to do stuff, never was inclined anyway. I let it go. He read when he was
> 9 and reads well. There was lots of pressure from the outside but I tried to
> bear most of it to give him time. It worked.
> Another thing I do is to involve his brother in something and don't even
> ask him. I do this with things I know he will give me flak about (reading
> "Little House on the Prairie") It's amazing how many things he joins us at
> that we would have argued over. (Of course having a willing sibling is very
> helpful here.LOL)
>
> Laura
Sara
[email protected]
Jennifer, that is so true.
Mary Ellen
Seek joy in what you give, not in what you get.
do you think about that------without having an immediate 'you're right',
'you're wrong' response.
Thanks everyone,,,,,,,you're a wonderful support :-) Jennifer>>>>
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Mary Ellen
Seek joy in what you give, not in what you get.
>>It seems in school there is so much emphasis on facts needed tolearn,,,,and no emphasis on things we don't really know about--or, what
do you think about that------without having an immediate 'you're right',
'you're wrong' response.
Thanks everyone,,,,,,,you're a wonderful support :-) Jennifer>>>>
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Debra Bures
The comments on perfectionism have been very interesting. I think that it's
really important to teach our kids (and ourselves, too) to generate
alternative solutions to problems--that there is generally more that one way
to solve a problem. That different doesn't mean right or wrong--it just
means different! When my dd a(now 11 1/2)
was in kdgn, she was admonished for "messy coloring". This doesn't fan the
fire of creativity!!!
Debra
-----Original Message-----
From: sara woodall <swoodall@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Perfectionism
really important to teach our kids (and ourselves, too) to generate
alternative solutions to problems--that there is generally more that one way
to solve a problem. That different doesn't mean right or wrong--it just
means different! When my dd a(now 11 1/2)
was in kdgn, she was admonished for "messy coloring". This doesn't fan the
fire of creativity!!!
Debra
-----Original Message-----
From: sara woodall <swoodall@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Perfectionism
>From: sara woodall <swoodall@...>was
>
>> My son has always been much the same way. Vie never been able to force
>> him to do stuff, never was inclined anyway. I let it go. He read when he
>> 9 and reads well. There was lots of pressure from the outside but I triedto
>> bear most of it to give him time. It worked.even
>> Another thing I do is to involve his brother in something and don't
>> ask him. I do this with things I know he will give me flak about (readingat
>> "Little House on the Prairie") It's amazing how many things he joins us
>> that we would have argued over. (Of course having a willing sibling isvery
>> helpful here.LOL)door."
>>
>> Laura
>
>I can say "ditto" to all you wrote here. I call it "coming in the back
>
>Sara
>
>>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>