[email protected]

In a message dated 12/19/02 7:02:11 AM, scribblers2@... writes:

<< To me, it's more of an

interest in the culture of schools, and how it affects the people caught

up in it. I look at homeschoolers, esp. unschoolers, and think how great

it is. Then I look at public schools, and think, there must be a better

way. But while we can, one family at a time, step away from the schools,

how does an entire culture step away? What about all those kids there?

But then, I guess my interest in, concern for, the schools and who's in

them really isn't part of unschooling. >>

Many unschooling parents are former teachers who have dedicated a chunk of
lives to making it better. When I quit teaching, I couldn't even stand to
watch TV reports about the sad state of the schools. If Time or Newsweek had
an article on how bad the schools were, I wouldn't even open to that page.

If there's a better way, it's probably been tried and failed in the midst of
school realities. There are lists and sites to discuss that, and they might
really welcome unschoolers' points of views EXCEPT that they can't implement
much freedom into such a behemoth.

John Holt was a school reformer. There were lots of influential school
reformers in the 1960's and 70's, and attempts were made then to institute
"open classroom" methods, but in public schools they fail to work. That was
proven repeatedly and at great expense. That's what caused many parents to
take their kids out of school and for John Holt to write "Teach Your Own,"
and to found Growing Without Schooling magazine. (Then a few years later
fundamentalist Christians somehow imagined they had invented homeschooling.)

<<Also, if you can't unschool in your state,

then what? A few times I saw moving suggested. I do think this is an

important issue --- why should someone in a country supposedly about

freedom and the individual have to move?>>

Pennsylvania has more laws than I can BELIEVE would be allowed in the United
States. But maybe it's a good civics/poli-sci lesson that freedoms in the
U.S. seem to be greater in newer and smaller states. Laws seem to be
created when people are thick together, or when they've been there a long
time.

Also, something not often glorified: The original colonies were NOT set up
according to what is not seen as inalienable rights. Some of them were very
repressive. And the creation of the U.S. didn't totally cut off their
traditions of repression.

But one thing they didn't change is that American citizens can move freely
from one state to another without telling anybody they're gone. So if
living in New Mexico means I have to see people wearing guns or having guns
in their pickups and I don't WANT to see that, I can move. If living in
Texas means you have to see people wearing Texas jewelry and eating grits and
you can't stand that, you can move north or west to the green chile zone.

<<There is something seriously

wrong if the government is telling us how to raise our children, and

even if we don't live in that state, I do think it is everyone's

concern.>>

Compulsory attendance laws are old. We can't roll back that far; all those
who voted for them are dead. (Except those who lately extended them to 18 or
back to five or six, in some states.)

<Another state could look at that and think it's a good idea, or

no one objects, or any other excuse to further curb our freedoms.

>>

States don't like the federal government telling them what to do (unless
there are big bucks attached to compliance), so they absolutely won't want
people in other states telling them what to do. I think people have enough
problems in their own states and with their own kids without trying to reform
schools or homeschooling laws in other states.

But people have found practical, workable ways to comply with Pennsylvania
laws, and so those would be the people to ask.

Sandra

kayb85 <[email protected]>

> <<Also, if you can't unschool in your state,
>
> then what? A few times I saw moving suggested. I do think this is
an
>
> important issue --- why should someone in a country supposedly
about
>
> freedom and the individual have to move?>>
>
> Pennsylvania has more laws than I can BELIEVE would be allowed in
the United
> States. But maybe it's a good civics/poli-sci lesson that freedoms
in the
> U.S. seem to be greater in newer and smaller states. Laws seem to
be
> created when people are thick together, or when they've been there
a long
> time.


And even in Pennsylvania, one can unschool. One can find an
evaluator who understands and supports unschooling. And Mom will
have to put a lot of work into it, but it is possible to make a
portfolio for an unschooler that will impress them enough that they
will leave you alone. Usually anyway. It doesn't mean that you
might not go to court or might not have to fight with the school
district on stuff. But it's not just the unschoolers that have to
worry about that. The most strict school at homers are in danger of
geing picked on too.

We tried to pass a less restrictive homeschool law in PA, and it was
tabled at the end of November. Part of the problem is that there
were some homeschoolers who actually lobbied against it, saying that
if they didn't have the state to be accountable to, they might not do
a good job educating their children.

> Compulsory attendance laws are old. We can't roll back that far;
all those
> who voted for them are dead. (Except those who lately extended
them to 18 or
> back to five or six, in some states.)

Check out www.sepschool.org

> But people have found practical, workable ways to comply with
Pennsylvania
> laws, and so those would be the people to ask.

Any unschooler in Pennsylvania who claims that there is no problem
here is under a delusion. Yes, it can be done and I do it. But one
change of personnel in my school district could change that. One
shift in the superintendent's attitude could change that. A
superintendent could wake up on the wrong side of the bed one morning
and decide to make life miserable for homeschoolers--and do it. He
has that much power. Superintendents ask for things above and beyond
the law all the time, and get away with it. So any homeschooler in
PA who brags about how easy they have it is really just bragging that
the superintendent of their local school district is a somewhat
decent person who cooperates with homeschoolers enough to not hassle
them.

Again, my point is not that we should change anything about the way
we unschool in order to comply with a law. However, just like
someone might say, "Ugh, my mother in law is coming for a visit and
she is going to make unschooling difficult for us for a few weeks",
someone from PA might say, "Ugh, my superintendent just called and
said that he doesn't think my portfolio shows that my son has had an
appropriate 4th grade education". There are practical suggestions
for getting the mother in law off someone's back and there are
practical suggestions for getting a superintendent off someone's
back. In neither situation should a person stop unschooling, they
should just find a way to get the problem people off of their backs
so that they CAN unschool.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/19/02 9:55:17 AM, sheran@... writes:

<< So any homeschooler in
PA who brags about how easy they have it is really just bragging that >>

I didn't say ANYONE said it was easy, but that people are doing it.

Have a Nice Day!

Good post. I TOTALLY agree.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: kayb85 <sheran@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: culture and freedom (long, rambly, history and speculation)



> <<Also, if you can't unschool in your state,
>
> then what? A few times I saw moving suggested. I do think this is
an
>
> important issue --- why should someone in a country supposedly
about
>
> freedom and the individual have to move?>>
>
> Pennsylvania has more laws than I can BELIEVE would be allowed in
the United
> States. But maybe it's a good civics/poli-sci lesson that freedoms
in the
> U.S. seem to be greater in newer and smaller states. Laws seem to
be
> created when people are thick together, or when they've been there
a long
> time.


And even in Pennsylvania, one can unschool. One can find an
evaluator who understands and supports unschooling. And Mom will
have to put a lot of work into it, but it is possible to make a
portfolio for an unschooler that will impress them enough that they
will leave you alone. Usually anyway. It doesn't mean that you
might not go to court or might not have to fight with the school
district on stuff. But it's not just the unschoolers that have to
worry about that. The most strict school at homers are in danger of
geing picked on too.

We tried to pass a less restrictive homeschool law in PA, and it was
tabled at the end of November. Part of the problem is that there
were some homeschoolers who actually lobbied against it, saying that
if they didn't have the state to be accountable to, they might not do
a good job educating their children.

> Compulsory attendance laws are old. We can't roll back that far;
all those
> who voted for them are dead. (Except those who lately extended
them to 18 or
> back to five or six, in some states.)

Check out www.sepschool.org

> But people have found practical, workable ways to comply with
Pennsylvania
> laws, and so those would be the people to ask.

Any unschooler in Pennsylvania who claims that there is no problem
here is under a delusion. Yes, it can be done and I do it. But one
change of personnel in my school district could change that. One
shift in the superintendent's attitude could change that. A
superintendent could wake up on the wrong side of the bed one morning
and decide to make life miserable for homeschoolers--and do it. He
has that much power. Superintendents ask for things above and beyond
the law all the time, and get away with it. So any homeschooler in
PA who brags about how easy they have it is really just bragging that
the superintendent of their local school district is a somewhat
decent person who cooperates with homeschoolers enough to not hassle
them.

Again, my point is not that we should change anything about the way
we unschool in order to comply with a law. However, just like
someone might say, "Ugh, my mother in law is coming for a visit and
she is going to make unschooling difficult for us for a few weeks",
someone from PA might say, "Ugh, my superintendent just called and
said that he doesn't think my portfolio shows that my son has had an
appropriate 4th grade education". There are practical suggestions
for getting the mother in law off someone's back and there are
practical suggestions for getting a superintendent off someone's
back. In neither situation should a person stop unschooling, they
should just find a way to get the problem people off of their backs
so that they CAN unschool.

Sheila


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