[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 10:27:54 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< I cant agree that children always
know what is best for them.. They are CHILDREN. .. how can 13 or 14
or 16 years compare to 35 , or 40 , or 60 in knowing about life??? >>

My son Kirby is 16 and off to Denver for the weekend, staying with a family I
don't know.

Another friend of mine is 36, and in Boulder for the weekend. (He and his
wife gave Kirby a ride.)

I'm more worried about the actions of the 36 year old (I do have a social
investment) and what he might do and say than I am about Kirby. My concern
about Kirby is that I hope he's charming enough that the family hosting him
is glad he came to their house. I hope he thanks them sufficiently and didn't
make a mess. I have NO concerns about him being "in trouble." The older
friend, though, should not drink and still does, and he'll be at a medieval
Christmas feast and his chances of commiting a socio-political faux-pas are
greater than Kirby's.

<< Even with an
adult along( they didnt follow us around everywhere), we managed to
get drunk a couple of times, hook up with strange guys, and get lost
downtown. I would have gotten in WAY more trouble, maybe even dead,
if there was not an adult along. >>

Midnight is arbitrary, though. 11:45 is as dangerous as 12:15, espeically if
kids will drink and hook up with strange guys. That's dangerous at 2:00 in
the afternoon.

<<"Distruptive and defensive" seems to be defined and not agreeing 100%
with what some others practice.. Also, defending our own practices
when we are judged harshly for them. There IS a double standard
here.. Its so easy to see when reading through the posts.>>

What there is is holding each story (mine or anyone's--I was lately
criticized, if not here then at the forum, for having told Kirby if he didn't
like it here pick another family he knew and we'd pay them to keep him, and
still give him his allowance) up to the light of what's good for kids, and
what works with unschooling.

The double standard has nothing to do with individuals, it has to to with
philosophy. So if someone comes determined to defend traditional parenting
and to scoff at attachment parenting, continuum concept, unschooling, and
that group of principles (different people pick and choose from different
parts of that), the defenses will be challenged.

If I start making Holly do math books, people here are going to remind me
what kind of damage that can do to her love of math.

<<I am curious as to why no one replied to my response. I have
replied to many posts and they are basically ignored or only a minute
part of them responded to.. >>

Maybe they thought your feelings were too hurt already.

<<nother form or "cliqueness".. I
was thinking, this list is a lot like High School.. or heck, even
middle school. >>

Do you really think so?
The less you see the world in terms of school, the sooner you'll be
comfortable with unschooling.

<<Why do the unschooling police want to act like a group of Queen
Bees. that wont allow anyone "in" unless that are clones of them??
There have even been subtle advice to "just leave if you dont like
it" Well, I am NOT leaving. I wont be bullied by others into
agreeing with every aspect of thier lifestyle. I wont try to change
them, and again, I must reiterate.. I HAVE NOT JUDGED... >>

The statement above is nasty and judgmental, and to say we're like midschool
is judgmental.

<<I think my
parenting methods are just as valid and worthy as the next persons.
I know I can gain knowledge and learn from others. I think that
others can learn from me as well.
>>

People can learn from going and reading about what size of dowel to use to
spank their homeschooled children who don't finish their work on time, but
that's not the topic of this list.

If you really want to defend early bedtimes so kids can go to school, or you
want to say that a child who wants to show you a trick is always going to
have to wait until you're through talking to an adult friend (can't the adult
friend see the trick too? Can't that conversation be put on hold for an
important parenting moment?) then maybe you won't stay on this list. If you
think insulting us and then saying you didn't is the way to interact with
other homeschooling parents, maybe you have issues which won't be helpful to
others.

Sandra

Betsy

**
<<Why do the unschooling police want to act like a group of Queen
Bees. that wont allow anyone "in" unless that are clones of them??
There have even been subtle advice to "just leave if you dont like
it" Well, I am NOT leaving. I wont be bullied by others into
agreeing with every aspect of thier lifestyle. >>**


WHY? Why would *anybody* want to stay and be disagreeable with people
they disagree with? There are huge numbers of parenting and
homeschooling email groups available. There's got to be one for every
personality, every belief, every style. WHY plant one's feet and fight
over this one?

This list is what it is. It's not feasible for it to change to
accomodate the preferences of each new person.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 5:49:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> No, that was a good win-win solution! That was very creative! (And it's also
> why real life scenarios are much better to use as discussion points than
> made up ones.)
>

Thanks Joyce.. I think it is a lot easier when we use real life scenarios to
illustrate our points. I think a lot of what I try to convey gets
misconstrued. Even the "talking to Judy" scenario. I said that I would
have either called her back or asked her to come to see the trick too.. but..
I still wouldnt just drop and run at his command. I would acknowledge his
excitement, I would go see his trick.. But, he would have to wait for me to
be able to do that..( not long, long enough for me to "finish up") I think I
have come to understand that THIS list is specifically for "total
unschoolers" and to go against the grain in any way just causes conflict and
emotional debates. I posted the following to my local homeschool support
group, so its got some "they and them" references in it. We have been
discussing the different types of homeschoolers, unschoolers, etc.. The
group is a lot more diverse and accepting of others practices and beliefs.
And, that is not a judgement on THIS list, just an observance. As a matter
of fact, several folks on this list have pointed out that list is for talking
about unschooling, not other methods of parenting and/or teaching. Anyway,
heres what I said.. its just basically sums up my perspective on the whole
debate.
********

I agree about the "labeling", I dont really care for it.. but
sometimes its necessary to define our ideals quickly.  I suppose
since I am not in total agreement with the parenting lifestyle of
radical unschoolers, that I am more of a relaxed homeschooler. 
Really, Im just what I said in a much much earlier post ( right after
I joined)  I'm just ME doing what I have to do for myself and my
children to be happy and productive.  Its kind of funny that I am
being considered "traditional" on the other group... LOL.. Most folks
who know me think I am WAYY too radical and lenient with my
parenting.  I think a lot of the very conservative and "old school"
parenting practices are very prevalent in this area because we live
in the Bible Belt.  NC (and dont get me wrong, I LOVE NC) is
generally a little "behind the times" and slow to accept change. 
Most folks say.. OMG, I cant believe what you let your kids get by
with!.. I wouldnt stand for that!... And here I am, now being accused
of being "traditional"   And, traditional does not automatically mean
bad or wrong.  A lot of us came up with traditional parenting, and we
are doing just fine.. Hey, even better than just fine, doing GREAT,
and not resenting our parents for raising us the old fashioned way. 

  Landon and I had a nice conversation today about "extremists"  I
dont know what else to call folks who adhere strongly to thier
beliefs and dont accept any ones elses on any particular matter.  
This kind of people exist in every facet imaginable.  Religious (ANY
religion) people who think they are the only ones going to heaven and
if you dont agree and practice thier beliefs 100%, you are doomed. 
Folks who have political views that they think are the ONLY right
choice.  Parenting styles, education styles, sexual orientation,
heck, even hobbies like cooking, gardening, sewing. You have to do it
THEIR way, or you are wrong and "bad".  I have realized and come to
appreciate my own acceptance of diversity.. Sure, I have my own set
of beliefs and practices for every aspect of my life.  I feel my
choices are right for me and my family.  I may even think they are
better than some other's choices.  But, I dont try to "convert"
others to my way of thinking.. Nor do I think folks with different
views are inferior to me in any way at all.  I can disagree with
someone and still respect them.   Maybe it is a protective instinct,
when you do something differently that the majority, to be quick to
judge and condemn others if they dont agree with you.  The thing is,
I dont really care if they want to make eggs at 3am, or leave all
thier toys and clothes on the floor, or end adult conversations for their
children. REALLY, I dont care (as long as no one is getting hurt,
physically or emotionally).. I mean, it doesnt affect me or my
children..  I am sure these people love thier children and they feel they are
doing the right thing, and thats fine with me.  What I dont understand is why
they can't see my situation in the same light.  
************

I would really like to stay on this list. I have met some very intelligent,
friendly, and helpful folks. But, I dont think my own contributions are
appreciated or even wanted. Several folks here have suggested that I find
or create a group for folks that share my views and opinions.. Well, life is
not segregated like that. We all have to live together, and I think we
should all get along. But, thats just my opinion.

Teresa







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 12:27:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
grlynbl@... writes:

> ).. What would
> JP have learned if I had said.. "OK".. jumped up and ran downstairs
> and made the pancakes right away like he asked?

That mom was just as excited as he was about his very very fun, appetizing,
and special morning making pancakes?
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 5:49:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> ? We compromised..
> >I got to drink my coffee and get woke up and spend 15 mins or so
> >getting ready to do downstairs.. He got to feel needed and helpful by
> >getting the things ready. PLUS he got to read and follow directions,
> >measure and stir.
>
> No, that was a good win-win solution! That was very creative! (And it's
> also
> why real life scenarios are much better to use as discussion points than
> made up ones.)
>
>
I do agree that it was handled very well. I just thought of another option
while I was reading.
Sorry about that.
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

**That mom was just as excited as he was about his very very fun, appetizing,
and special morning making pancakes?
Elissa**



Its pretty funny to watch my kids' faces when I do things like that because they don't expect it, I think they are still used to my earlier 'saying no' parenting. Sometimes they just stand there and look at me blankly, and then they get this huge grin. Its priceless.



It happened just yesterday with the rides at the mall, pre-unschooling time when we would walk by the rides I would be the parent saying no, we don't need to do that, yesterday Kyra, 5dd, her little face was so excited when she saw them and she asked to ride the horse. I'm thinking, a big 25 cents, sure you can. I swear I saw her clean out her ears!<g> I can't believe that I would even think any other way.



Kelli

learning these new words--yes, sure, you bet,






Earthmomma67@... wrote:In a message dated 12/15/02 12:27:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
grlynbl@... writes:

> ).. What would
> JP have learned if I had said.. "OK".. jumped up and ran downstairs
> and made the pancakes right away like he asked?

That mom was just as excited as he was about his very very fun, appetizing,
and special morning making pancakes?
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 6:48:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> ).. What would
> >JP have learned if I had said.. "OK".. jumped up and ran downstairs
> >and made the pancakes right away like he asked?
>
> That mom was just as excited as he was about his very very fun, appetizing,
>
> and special morning making pancakes?
> Elissa
>
>

He knows I was excited about making pancakes, after all , they are the best
pancakes in the world :-) And, I think he learned more the way I approached
this situation.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 7:23:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> I do agree that it was handled very well. I just thought of another option
> while I was reading.
> Sorry about that.
> Elissa
>

First you implied that it was handled wrong,. but when you read Joyces
response, all of the sudden you agreed with her. .. ?!?!?!?!??! This is
where others get the idea that there are a few around here that are
considered right and any opposing ideas are wrong.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**When someone says something and another person makes a direct response
to it, then it is aimed at you.**

Actually, *no*, that is *not* the way a discussion list works. We don't
hang around here for the thrill of picking apart individuals (honestly),
we're here because we want to discuss ideas. Individual posts often
remind us of ideas and principles that we find important to talk about.

As I recall, the idea being discussed was that cleaning rules and
schedules are often devised for the parent's convenience, whether or not
the children appreciate them. As a general statement, that's true.

It wasn't said that any poster was "bad", "wrong" or "not going to get
into heaven" just because someone used their life as a starting point
for further discussion.

Discussion here is *general*. It isn't a one-to-one, individual channel.

Betsy

Fetteroll

on 12/15/02 6:19 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> I still wouldnt just drop and run at his command.

This is being done with out criticism of you! It's talking about the ideas
.... If we see our children's requests as commands, then our attitude and
the ideas we draw on to respond are going to be different than if we see
them as requests. And it helps to put those requests in the perspective of
the kids. If we ask a 3 yo to wait, it's like asking an adult to wait 10
minutes.

I really neat thing AnneO (from the message board) says she does with her
kids is to squeeze their hand 3 times as a family signal "I love you." It
also says I really wish I could be with you and I will as soon as I can. :-)
And because she *is* conscious of what she's asking of them from *their*
point of view they trust her that she *will* be there as quickly as she can.

> But, he would have to wait for me to
> be able to do that..( not long, long enough for me to "finish up")

And this is where I might think there might be some value in asking yourself
why does he *have* to? The reality is that his waiting or not waiting is in
your power. He "has" to wait because you choose to make him wait.

What does it look like from his point of view? What is it you think you're
communicating and what are you actually communicating?

> I think I
> have come to understand that THIS list is specifically for "total
> unschoolers"

"Total unschooling" is what gets discussed. It's the point of view that all
advice is matched up against. That makes it seem limiting, I know. But what
it is is really clear directions to a place we think is really cool. And the
people who want to come and use the directions to get there. And the people
who think some of it sounds okay and some doesn't can come part way to some
place they find comfortable. They can take what they want and leave the
rest.

Some people define unschooling the way I'd define eclectic or relaxed
homeschooling. If the list were relaxed homeschooling more people could
comfortably post but those who wanted to find "total unschooling" wouldn't
have clear directions and they'd be bumbling around the area. And it would
never be clear if they were "there" yet or not because they'd be surrounded
by advice about how they "had to make sure" such and such happened.

> and to go against the grain in any way just causes conflict and
> emotional debates.

I think, again, this is where hearing a tone that the writer didn't write
comes in. And reading something into a message that the writer didn't put
there. From my point of view the debates are logical support of beliefs
until someone takes a discussion about an idea to imply something personal.
And then it gets into name calling.

> I'm just ME doing what I have to do for myself and my
> children to be happy and productive.

And I think that's how most homeschoolers (except the schooling-for-religous
reasons ones) would describe themselves.

I'm think unschoolers would express it as "I want my children to live joyful
lives and unschooling is the way to provide that." (And I could go on about
how unschooling would do that.)

> Landon and I had a nice conversation today about "extremists"  I
> dont know what else to call folks who adhere strongly to thier
> beliefs and dont accept any ones elses on any particular matter.

> Sure, I have my own set
> of beliefs and practices for every aspect of my life.  I feel my
> choices are right for me and my family.  I may even think they are
> better than some other's choices.  But, I dont try to "convert"
> others to my way of thinking.. Nor do I think folks with different
> views are inferior to me in any way at all.  I can disagree with
> someone and still respect them.

I accept that other people have different goals than I do. I accept that in
order to meet those goals they have different needs. Diversity is a great
thing in life. :-)

But when you want to talk about one thing diversity makes it impossible.
It's like someone handing you an unalphabetized encyclopedia without an
index or table of contents when all you want is to find out about Thomas
Edison.

Just because the Episcopalians want to discuss Christianity every Sunday
does that mean they don't embrace diversity? Does that mean they think
they're better than the Buddhists or the Hindus? (And if you happen to have
rigid my-way-or-the-highway Episcopalians around where you live, then insert
any liberal Christian denomination ;-) And because they adamantly sure of
their beliefs, does that mean they want you to believe the same?

No one's saying unschooling is the only way to homeschool. (The forum is
clearly called Unschooling.com not Homeschooling.com No one's trying to
disguise the fact that this is a special subset of homeschooling.) No one is
saying you need to stop believing what you believe and believe what's
expressed here.

But does a list about Italian cooking need to include tacos to demonstrate
that they accept diversity as is a good thing?

> Maybe it is a protective instinct,
> when you do something differently that the majority, to be quick to
> judge and condemn others if they dont agree with you.

And no one here cares if you don't :-) Really! We're protective of the
*idea* of unschooling. No one needs to *do* what anyone here says but the
discussion needs to stick to the idea of unschooling or the list ceases to
be an unschooling discussion list and becomes something else. It becomes a
place for people who like the idea of unschooling to talk about life. That's
not a bad thing! It's just different from what this list is.

I don't know why there are 1000 members for all the complaining about how
mean this list is! ;-) but there's something this list offers that seems to
be what many people are looking for. There are a lot of unschooling lists
out there that are "nicer" than we are -- and I dont think it's the meaness
that makes people stick around! -- so I've gotta go with the type of
unschooling discussion we have. (Or maybe there's something wrong with Yahoo
and people can't sign off once they sign on ;-)

> But, I dont think my own contributions are
> appreciated or even wanted.

Again it's not personal. It's about ideas. Buddhists are welcome at the
Episcopal church and I'm sure plenty of Episcopalians would be interested to
hear what they have to say outside the church, but Episcopalians come to the
church because they *want* to hear about Christianity. If they let anyone
speak it wouldn't be an Episcopal church. It would be a Unitarian :-) And
being Unitarian myself, I don't see that as a bad thing! But it's certainly
different from an Episcopal church and I don't begrudge the Episcopalians
for sticking to their own brand of Christianity on Sundays or think they're
being exlusionary or uppity.

Joyce

> Several folks here have suggested that I find
> or create a group for folks that share my views and opinions..

Deborah Lewis

Joyce,
Did I ever thank you for showing me what calm patience looks like?
In all my life of passionate beliefs and pursuits I never learned
patience as a virtue until I read your amazing and clear and calm
writing. I'm so grateful.

Thanks,
Deb L

Mary Bianco

In a message dated 12/15/02 10:27:54 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<<I cant agree that children always know what is best for them.. They are
CHILDREN. .. how can 13 or 14 or 16 years compare to 35 , or 40 , or 60 in
knowing about life???>>


It's not just a matter of letting ones children run helter skelter all over
town and just bow out with "they know what's best for them!"
There is so much more to it than that. So much more that comes from the very
beginning and knowing ones child and seeing what they do with life all along
the way.

I never had a curfew and was totally trusted growing up. I certainly had my
share of partying but for the most part, knew my parents had the utmost
trust in me and wanted to keep it that way. I never got in trouble and
excelled in school too. (although I hated it but that's a whole other
story!)

When I was tossing around dropping my daughters curfew, Sandra was the one
that pointed out that many kids were getting into plenty of trouble at 2:00
in the afternoon. Kids that had to be home by a certain time and weren't
trusted and had to cram in the "I'm going to do it anyway" stuff before
curfew. I started to look at that and actually see she was right. And to be
honest, kids can find much more trouble during the day among more people and
when there are more avenues to explore. I saw my daughters friends that were
allowed the freedom actually using it very wisely. Their parents weren't bad
parents who didn't care, they were trusting parents who had good kids
because of that. Now of course there are exceptions to the rule but one
would have to look at the parents and how the kids were raised.

So I let go of the curfew and wondering and really put full trust in my 16
year old. I haven't regretted it at all. She's a great kid and has really
flourished especially now that she has our complete trust. If she's working
until 10:30 p.m. and wants to come home and shower and go to a midnight
movie with her boyfriend and then walk the boardwalk or hang out at her
boyfriends cousins house, where's the problem as to why she can't? I always
know where she's at and who's she's with. And that's not me asking, that's
her doing it so I won't worry.

Do I know of kids older and not half as responsible and level headed as my
daugher? You bet, but I also know plenty of adults much older just as bad.

Mary B


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 10:05:56 PM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< So I let go of the curfew and wondering and really put full trust in my 16
year old. I haven't regretted it at all. >>

Mary,

It's really good to read an update on all that!

I know you had already told us you were glad and it was working out, but
still... that it's calm and good a few months out is good to know too.

Kirby will be back within the next few hours from a weekend in Denver. I
have the phone numbers of four of the five kids he went to hang out with;
e-mail addresses for two of them, a map to the house where he's staying.
They have phone numbers here and of two cellphones of close friends who are
in Denver and Boulder (for local emergencies), and Kirby's insurance numbers.
That was e-mailed in advance, and he has a paper copy. And Kirby has a
phone card and his insurance card, and a state ID (like a non-driving
driver's license).

Overkill? Routine. I always know who he's with, and it makes him feel
safer too.

I even know the name of the mall where two of the girls work, where they were
going to hang around on Saturday.

Saying no would have been easy, but cruel. He planned this, he saved his own
money, and either he will have had a great time, or not such a great time.
And his next decision on an outing like this will be based on this, on the
value he felt he got out of it.

When a kid has been "on a short leash" sometimes they get to their first
overnight trip, or to college and live in a dorm and they just go nuts. They
do what they couldn't do at home, with a crazed vengence. My kids won't have
a time like that. And what it looks like, and what it feels like, and so (I
suppose) what it is, is maturity. They're not joy-starved, and they've been
making responsible decisions in bigger and bigger doses all along.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/02 12:05:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mummyone24@... writes:

> I certainly had my
> share of partying but for the most part, knew my parents had the utmost
> trust in me and wanted to keep it that way. I never got in trouble and
> excelled in school too.

Well at least now I know I am not the only person who sowed thier wild oats.
:-) My "oats" were getting drunk that time at the beach ( I was 17).. And I
also imbibed on another occasion in high school. Other than that.. well, I
was a crazy girl.. lol.. but never taken any drugs, never smoked ( cigs or
pot) been married to the same man for 17 years and we were both virgins when
we met.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/02 12:05:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mummyone24@... writes:

> So I let go of the curfew and wondering and really put full trust in my 16
> year old. I haven't regretted it at all.

Oh yeah, and btw, my son is 16 and he doesnt have a curfew either. He
always tells me where he is going and when he expects to get back.. I feel
the same way as many of you.. Its not my son Im worried about. its those
other kids.. LOL.. ( and I know thats what my parents concern was too)
Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

>From: SandraDodd@...

<<When a kid has been "on a short leash" sometimes they get to their first
overnight trip, or to college and live in a dorm and they just go nuts.
They do what they couldn't do at home, with a crazed vengence. My kids
won't have a time like that. And what it looks like, and what it feels
like, and so (I suppose) what it is, is maturity. They're not joy-starved,
and they've been making responsible decisions in bigger and bigger doses all
along.>>


Exactly. And as much as I knew that with the younger ones, it never hit me
that it works the same with the older ones too. I was afraid to let go of
that old thinking. And I've seen so much of those short leashed kids going
hog wild. Without them we wouldn't have our "Wild Spring Breaker Co-eds"
videos!!!

Tara is doing great and so level headed it's almost scary. She expresses
concern for her year younger cousin and tries to talk some sense into her
all the time. Of course this kid is drug tested and smacked around and
grounded and then not grounded. It's not a bit of wonder she's a mess. It's
like the last few months have made Tara so aware of how she would like her
life to go. It's amazing what kids will do if you let them!!!!!

Mary B



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Fetteroll

on 12/15/02 10:10 PM, Deborah Lewis at ddzimlew@... wrote:

> Did I ever thank you for showing me what calm patience looks like?
> In all my life of passionate beliefs and pursuits I never learned
> patience as a virtue until I read your amazing and clear and calm
> writing. I'm so grateful.

Aren't you sweet :-) I'll admit to being naturally even keeled though I
guess I see it as it's not much of a challenge to be petty and mean when I
feel petty and mean. Even petty mean people can do that ;-) But it is a
challenge to respond calmly and patiently when I feel petty and mean ;-)

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/2002 4:44:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mummyone24@... writes:
> It's not a bit of wonder she's a mess. It's
> like the last few months have made Tara so aware of how she would like her
> life to go. It's amazing what kids will do if you let them!!!!!

Cameron has expressed outrage at how his friends and cousins are
treated---and how much he appreciates his dad and me and our lifestyle. He's
more aware too of the differences and the freedoms he has in comparison. He
asks a lot about how we came to this decision, why parents feel they must
limit everything---and punish and shame---and what the eventual outcomes will
be (when they're all grown and away---'though he says he'll never leave! <g>
). He got a good dose this weekend with all the Lovejoys here---watching the
children interact with their parents and talking to the cousins privately. He
couldn't believe what he heard and witnessed (and couldn't WAIT to tell me! <
G>).

I wish we had more unschoolers nearby to hang with. But I'm glad he's deeply
observing "the other side" and drawing conclusions. There are times he's
still not "sure"---with all the talk of "success" and "education"---but he
LIKES his life and the way he's treated and respected and appreciated and
adored. Happy childhood. Happy child.

~Kelly


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 7:58:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> He knows I was excited about making pancakes, after all , they are the best
> pancakes in the world :-) And, I think he learned more the way I
> approached
> this situation.
>
>

I agree with you, and I do think it worked out well. To me it just feels
different. I think trust in me is more important than learning stuff. And I'm
not saying that he doesn't trust you or anything like that. I would find a
way to do both - drink my coffee AND help him make pancakes. I think it's the
tiny little things that we do that make trust blossom or wither. A long time
ago, I read some Amway rah-rah book on emotional accounts. Everytime we do
some tiny little thing that is good for someone else, we deposit some trust &
love coins into their account. (Ka-ching!) When we do something that hurts
another, slights them in the smallest way, then a withdrawl is made.(Buzzzzz)
Eventually the account is either filled way up or bankrupt.
In my heart, (and I'm only using this scenario because it's already out
there) If I had gotten up and was AS excited AS HE (Ka-ching!)about the
pancakes , and went downstairs, got myself my coffee, sat down in the kitchen
and helped him get what he wanted(Ka-ching!) and stayed there to make
pancakes in my jammies (since the first offer was to wait till the coffee was
finished, and didn't include getting dressed(Buzzzzz) ;o) )
Now, to be honest, it's alot easier to parent on list than in real life,
because there are no emotions, I probably would have done the exact same
thing! I do try to look back and see if I've done the right things, said the
right words, made deposits in my family's emotional accounts.
Elissa, whi is just musing and not critisizing


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 8:20:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> First you implied that it was handled wrong,. but when you read Joyces
> response, all of the sudden you agreed with her. .. ?!?!?!?!??! This is
> where others get the idea that there are a few around here that are
> considered right and any opposing ideas are wrong.
>
>
>
I didn't intend to imply anything. I apologized for not saying the nice part
first.
Elissa


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 8:20:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> >I do agree that it was handled very well. I just thought of another option
> >while I was reading.
> >Sorry about that.
> >Elissa
> >
>
> First you implied that it was handled wrong,. but when you read Joyces
> response, all of the sudden you agreed with her. .. ?!?!?!?!??! This is
> where others get the idea that there are a few around here that are
> considered right and any opposing ideas are wrong.
>
>
I didn't imply that it was handled wrong. I implied that it could have been
handled Better. There are subtle differences there. I elaborated further in
an earlier than this email.
Elissa


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Deborah Lewis

>My children want a lot that I cant give them.. My son wants a go cart
> for Christmas. Even if it was within my means, I wouldn't get him
> one because I know that he is implusive and does not have the skills
> to be safe on a go cart.

My son just announced (Saturday) that he thinks he'd like a PS 2, and
asked if it was possible to get one for Christmas.
My husband was out of work for a total of five months this year, (not all
at once) and we never fully recovered. Add to that the shopping we did
before he thought of the PS 2, and it doesn't seem possible.
Last night I told him I didn't think we could do it for Christmas. I
didn't want him to be disappointed Christmas morning, so I just told him.
But, we talked and we thought about other ways to do it. Dylan's
grandmother gave him some money as a Christmas present Saturday night
because she won't be here for the holidays. I owe him money for his
payday that had to be postponed in November when David wasn't working.
I can catch him up AND advance him a pay day on the 26th when his dad
gets paid again, add that to what he already had in his wallet, he's
almost there. We tried to figure out what the extras will cost, we
looked in some of the catalogs and sales flyers that have been coming in
the mail and we have a reasonable plan for him to get his PS 2 at least
by the 11th of December. He was SO happy. He checked the calendar, he
made of short list of the games he'd start saving for right away, he
asked if I thought it would be ok to give his old Play Station to his
friend Aryel.<g> But it could have gone a different way if he'd just
heard "no".

There is a town about an hour from us that has a cart rental place. You
go and pay and zoom around for awhile. Maybe you can find one near you
and find a way to get there a few times. It's not the same as his own
cart, but it's something, and it will help him gain experience and maybe
give you some time to get comfortable with the idea.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/02 8:50:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

> There is a town about an hour from us that has a cart rental place. You
> go and pay and zoom around for awhile. Maybe you can find one near you
> and find a way to get there a few times. It's not the same as his own
> cart, but it's something, and it will help him gain experience and maybe
> give you some time to get comfortable with the idea.
>
> Deb L
>

Yeah, he has been to those tracks.. He LOVES it.. We cant afford to go very
often, its pretty expensive. We have come up with some pretty creative
ways to be able to "fund" the things our kids want. Landon and Anna work for
thier grandparents and that gives them some extra spending $$. Ethan will
probabkly start helping out on Dads farm pretty soon ( now that hes out of
school) He may very well be able to start saving for a used go cart.
Ethan wanted an Xbox for Christmas.. That was a big gift, so he knows he wont
be getting a lot of other things. I got a used N64 for JP.. so they wont
have to ration thier time on thier game systems. This gonna be a tight
Christmas, I think the kids understand.. I am really looking forward to the
extra time we will be spending together. We may make some gifts .. they love
doing that and folks seem to like handmade gifts better anyway.

Teresa


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/2002 11:24:36 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> Saying no would have been easy, but cruel.

Does he resent the third degree? ;)

I tried to know where my pre-car-owning teenagers were at all times, too.
They didn't seem to mind telling me phone numbers and stuff. It was easy,
because I was usually the one dropping them off. But as soon as they got
cars, all I knew was that they had left the house, and if they were at work
or not. Oh, they told me where they thought they might be going sometime in
the next 12 hours, but there was always some extra driving to do, extra
friends to pick up. ;)

But I still trusted them. They got into minor mischief over the years, but
they managed to avoid police matters mostly. In fact, the one time either of
them got into real trouble was when he wasn't driving and had been dropped
off at the mall, and I knew exactly where he was and who he was with.

Now that the middle one is 18, I hardly ever know where he is, and he only
has a relationship based obligation to tell me. So I work hard on
maintaining the relationship, and he's matured just enough to see his part in
that, too. And that's why he tells me all about his band and his friends and
his work and why I let him borrow my truck when his car breaks down, and all
that.

Pam S., what was that book about parents and teens that I never got around to
reading?

Tuck


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Deborah Lewis

***Yeah, he has been to those tracks.. He LOVES it.. We cant afford to go
very
often, its pretty expensive. ***

How old is Ethan? Is the track close to you? Is there maybe a
possibility of him getting some kind of part time job there, cleaning up,
whatever, and working a discount or something?

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 9:38:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> Some people define unschooling the way I'd define eclectic or relaxed
> homeschooling. If the list were relaxed homeschooling more people could
> comfortably post but those who wanted to find "total unschooling" wouldn't
> have clear directions and they'd be bumbling around the area. And it would
> never be clear if they were "there" yet or not because they'd be surrounded
> by advice about how they "had to make sure" such and such happened.
>
>

Hi all,
I know I said I was lurking for a while but I just wanted to add something.
This is the list people like me have been looking for. And I have let
other's opinions of the list keep me off for a while now (I am so upset about
that). So many homeschoolers out there think that unschooling is just about
"curriculum" choice or lack there of. I get asked that question all the
time. " So you don't use any curriculum?" But it is so much more than that.
And there are so many other lists out there that would be great for people
who interpret unschooling as just about curriculum. But when you ask
questions or start discussions about allowing children to make choices in
their lives it seems like I don't fit in. The discussion ends up to be about
discipline and getting a child to do xyz etc. This list has been so valuable
to me already in that it has validated my feelings. For example: I do not
make my children pick up. I feel they have a choice and that I have to ask
like I would ask my husband. Other lists have said that I should not do that
and have given lots of advice on getting my boys to help clean up, I end up
feeling like what I think is somehow wrong or damaging to my child, the child
should not have a chance to say no.

I think the term unschooling sometimes does a disservice to what I am trying
to achieve in my family. Anyway back to lurkdom. LOL
Pam G.


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/02 9:26:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

> How old is Ethan? Is the track close to you? Is there maybe a
> possibility of him getting some kind of part time job there, cleaning up,
> whatever, and working a discount or something?
>

Ethan is just 11.. Thats another factor in my feeling that he is not "ready"
for a go cart. . He has the NEED FOR SPEED.. lol.. and I just dont think that
even physically, he' s able to handle a go kart.. My dad has 4-wheelers on
his farm and Ethan has just recently be allowed to ride them alone. He knows
where he can ride and he has done really good being careful. I know that
even 4-wheelers are dangerous, but I guess my "eclectic" style of parenting
has allowed me to give him more leeway than is advised by manufacturers of
4- wheelers. He's dying to drive the tractor, and I think his Grandpa will
probably let him this summer. He already drives our lawn mower around the
yard. Ethan does not know his times tables, but he can change the oil in
a car and he always tells me what to do and where things are when I have car
trouble.

Teresa


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/2002 6:27:23 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> There's a really good book for anyone who is interested called Parent/Teen
> Breakthrough: The Relationship Approach by Mira Kirshenbaum and Charles
> Foster. Pam S recommends it often and it's very good :-)
>

Ha! That's the book!

Tuck


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/2002 9:33:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
genant2@... writes:


> ). So many homeschoolers out there think that unschooling is just about
> "curriculum" choice or lack there of. I get asked that question all the
> time. " So you don't use any curriculum?" But it is so much more than
> that

BINGO!


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susan marie

Generally, I prefer to stay out of arguments, but this post finally drew
me in. I often see, whether on lists or "real" life, that while some
people are perfectly comfortable discussing ideas as apart from
themselves, others seem to have a more difficult time of separating
their self from their ideas, and from there can come misunderstandings
and hurt feelings. I like this list *because* it is about ideas, and
ideas are turned and examined and discussed - as things separate from
the person who shared the idea. To get the most from a group such as
this one, you must be willing to discuss ideas, and entertain the idea
that your way may not be the best way.

So my two cents, is to say I think this list is great. As for all of the
arguing, well, I've been skimming and deleting.

peace,
susan

On Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 08:54 PM, Betsy wrote:

>
> **When someone says something and another person makes a direct response
> to it, then it is aimed at you.**
>
> Actually, *no*, that is *not* the way a discussion list works.  We don't
> hang around here for the thrill of picking apart individuals (honestly),
> we're here because we want to discuss ideas.  Individual posts often
> remind us of ideas and principles that we find important to talk about.
>
> As I recall, the idea being discussed was that cleaning rules and
> schedules are often devised for the parent's convenience, whether or not
> the children appreciate them.  As a general statement, that's true.
>
> It wasn't said that any poster was "bad", "wrong" or "not going to get
> into heaven" just because someone used their life as a starting point
> for further discussion.
>
> Discussion here is *general*.  It isn't a one-to-one, individual
> channel.
>
> Betsy
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
> list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
> an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
peace,
Susan

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead

"All we are saying is give peace a chance."
- John Lennon


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