Yol, Vishnu & Shanti

> << > This is what I think. I think it's possible posters who are quick to
> > feel injured and claim they have been attacked are probably suffering
> > from low self esteem. I have noticed a connection between those who are
> > afraid their children will take advantage of them or make them
> > subservient and those who yell they've been hurt when ever someone
> > disagrees with them.
> >
> > I'd bet my life (or not) that many who feel attacked here, feel attacked
> > frequently other times and places as well and by all kinds of people, and
> > have a long list of injuries in their lifetime. >>
>
> Deb wrote that and Yol wrote:
>
> -=-This kind of statement is plainly aggressive and judgmental, but of course
> later on you're going to say that you didn't mean anything by it... In my
> dictionary, that's simply not taking responsibility-=-
>
> Yol, some of us have been involved in these kinds of discussions for a long
> time. This list is relatively new. The discussions about unschooling
> aren't. Three or four times a year someone will show up and be a bundle of
> defensive anger. Deb's seen it often. If you haven't seen it much, please
> withhold judgment on Deb's voluntary, free (you said "cheap) summary theories.

I find it very interesting that when someone who's been here for "a long time" says something words don't hold the same significance and meaning as when "new" people express their views. So, Deb is okay and shouldn't be "judged" by her comments, but again
the rest of us mortals can be judged as much as the-people-who's-been-on-this-list-for-a-long-time want? Let me quote you here:
"It's not just words, it's the thoughts we have that go with those words." I agre with that statement 100% but I think it applies to EVERYONE on this list, not just to those who haven't been-on-this-list-for-a-long-time.

I don't mind a heated discussion. I am very passionate about what I believe in and have been in many heated discussions. It's the attitude some of you guys have that IMO needs a check. It's a bit hollier-than-thou, if you know what I mean, like you
invented unschooling or something.

> If you will save your post and re-read it in a couple of years, I think
> you'll see that Deb had a legitimate point.

I don't save these posts. I simply read and move on.

> There is another pattern. Those who are often so disruptive and defensive
> sometimes aren't committed to unschooling and end up going to eclectic or
> unit studies or something.

I am not sure what you're talking about. Who is "defensive" and "disruptive"? For being so UN-schooling you guys sure like to label things and people. Is this also part of your unschooling approach?
I am an observer and I express what I've been observing. This list actually smells too much like a clique to me.

Yol

Deborah Lewis

***I find it very interesting that when someone who's been here for "a
long time" says something words don't hold the same significance and
meaning as when "new" people express their views. So, Deb is okay and
shouldn't be "judged" by her comments, but again the rest of us mortals
can be judged as much as
the-people-who's-been-on-this-list-for-a-long-time want? ***

You're free to question anything at all. There are no gods here though
you've been trying to draw a picture of some conflict between gods and
mortals. That conflict doesn't exist because we're all just moms and
dads
with ideas about a better life for our kids.

You're free to judge my comments, anyone can, but it means little to me
because like everyone else here, my parenting choices have been held up
to much criticism and scrutiny over the years. Theres very little I
haven't already heard, although I know I still have much to consider.

***I am an observer and I express what I've been observing.***

Isn't this what I did and what you are now so angry about?
It's what happens here. We read, we consider, we learn, we question, we
make observations. Is there some part of that seems contrary to what
this list is for?

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/13/02 8:08:44 PM, bluelotus@... writes:

<< > If you will save your post and re-read it in a couple of years, I think
> you'll see that Deb had a legitimate point.

I don't save these posts. I simply read and move on. >>

It's easy not to quite remember how clearly, then, some of the newcomers are
hostile and confused, but if they stick around they VERY often say "I used to
think you guys were nuts, but I stuck around and now I get it."

If people never keep journals or re-read their old letters, it's harder for
them to have a good perspective on their own progress.

-=-> There is another pattern. Those who are often so disruptive and
defensive
> sometimes aren't committed to unschooling and end up going to eclectic or
> unit studies or something.

-=-I am not sure what you're talking about. -=-

That's okay.

If you stick around long enough to see four or five incidents such as the one
which is going on now that you claim not to be able to see, you will
understand it.

Sandra

Kelli Traaseth

>>If you stick around long enough to see four or five incidents such as the one
which is going on now that you claim not to be able to see, you will
understand it.

Sandra<<

Yes, lets see I've been on here for maybe 4-6 months....and I've seen this 3 or 4 times now.

Don't you think, and I think someone said this, that's its part of growth, yes, the shift, Hey, Sandra there's a title for you book! 'The Shift' ? (Paradigm, that is)

Kelli

SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 12/13/02 8:08:44 PM, bluelotus@... writes:

<< > If you will save your post and re-read it in a couple of years, I think
> you'll see that Deb had a legitimate point.

I don't save these posts. I simply read and move on. >>

It's easy not to quite remember how clearly, then, some of the newcomers are
hostile and confused, but if they stick around they VERY often say "I used to
think you guys were nuts, but I stuck around and now I get it."

If people never keep journals or re-read their old letters, it's harder for
them to have a good perspective on their own progress.

-=-> There is another pattern. Those who are often so disruptive and
defensive
> sometimes aren't committed to unschooling and end up going to eclectic or
> unit studies or something.

-=-I am not sure what you're talking about. -=-

That's okay.

If you stick around long enough to see four or five incidents such as the one
which is going on now that you claim not to be able to see, you will
understand it.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yol, Vishnu & Shanti

>
> In a message dated 12/13/02 8:08:44 PM, bluelotus@... writes:
>
> << > If you will save your post and re-read it in a couple of years, I think
> > you'll see that Deb had a legitimate point.
>
> I don't save these posts. I simply read and move on. >>
>
> It's easy not to quite remember how clearly, then, some of the newcomers are
> hostile and confused, but if they stick around they VERY often say "I used to
> think you guys were nuts, but I stuck around and now I get it."

With me it's not so much about "getting it." What I'm saying is that you guys need to check your hollier-than-thou attitude. In other words, it seems that you're trying to *teach* newcomers how to
unschool, but you can have a different attitude with the people who-have-been-here-long-enough. It's a question of self-awareness, but of course that's an individual thing. I cannot make you se what you
don't want to see. You guys are perhaps a little too defensive about YOUR concept of unschooling.

> If people never keep journals or re-read their old letters, it's harder for
> them to have a good perspective on their own progress.

You sure sound like a teacher. Not everybody needs to keep the e-mails of the "experts" on this list to have a perspective on their progress.

> -=-> There is another pattern. Those who are often so disruptive and
> defensive
> > sometimes aren't committed to unschooling and end up going to eclectic or
> > unit studies or something.
>
> -=-I am not sure what you're talking about. -=-
>
> That's okay.
>
> If you stick around long enough to see four or five incidents such as the one
> which is going on now that you claim not to be able to see, you will
> understand it.

What I meant was that I didn't undestand what that had to do with my post. You're constantly projecting outside and very quick to label people. You're always right and the newcomers are the ones who have
all the problems. Again, lack of self-awareness... Never mind... I hardly doubt I will stick much longer in this clique. I've heard people on other lists express the same things about you guys I see for
myself. Except that I call it lack of self-awareness and they have much harsher words for it.

Yol

--
Blue Lotus Therapeutics
Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Yoga and Therapeutic Massage.
Asheville/Weaverville, NC
www.bluelotustherapeutics.com

Dhyanyoga Center of North Carolina
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
Weaverville, NC
www.dyc-nc.org

***********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
***********************************


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 10:37:29 AM, bluelotus@... writes:

<< > If people never keep journals or re-read their old letters, it's harder
for
> them to have a good perspective on their own progress.

You sure sound like a teacher. Not everybody needs to keep the e-mails of the
"experts" on this list to have a perspective on their progress. >>

I was talking about YOUR OWN e-mails.
Not about saving anyone else's. About saving the one in which you had
summarized your feelings. I believe your feelings will change in two years.
If you don't want to save that, you certainly don't have to, but if seeing
how far you've come might make you feel good (as it makes lots of other
people feel good, me certainly and always) it might be a good thing to save.

<<It's a question of self-awareness, but of course that's an individual
thing. I cannot make you se what you don't want to see. You guys are perhaps
a little too defensive about YOUR concept of unschooling.>>

I'm confident that what my kids have experienced has not hurt them and has
been good for them. They're really open and reasonable and thoughtful
people. More than I expected or could have predicted. So when people come
and suggest neglect or suggest that people here are exaggerating, or that we
just happened to have good kids and what we did didn't affect them, SEVERAL
people are going to object to those glib summaries.

It is because my kids had freedom to make choices early that they don't
agitate about decisions now. It's because they've been able to choose foods
that they don't eat a bunch of junk even though it's readily available.
It's because they don't see history as something to be avoided that they can
discuss history in the same tone and with the same enthusiasm as they discuss
video games. So if someone says "Kids will learn to make decisions because
we'll tell them what good decisions look like," and "unschooling works
differently in different families; my kids have to do math and write," or "My
kids are just kids so I'll make decisions for them until they're old enough
to make decisions," those statements will be held up to experiences of
families who have with many years' experience found that those "management
decisions" by parents will serve to hold kid back, not to give them wings.

-=-Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Yoga and Therapeutic Massage.
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga-=-

Doesn't stirring negativity go against those beliefs?
Doesn't coming here and saying we suck and you're leaving violate your
principles?

("Never mind... I hardly doubt I will stick much longer in this clique. I've
heard people on other lists express the same things about you guys I see for
myself. Except that I call it lack of self-awareness and they have much
harsher words for it.")

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 12/15/02 12:36 PM, Yol, Vishnu & Shanti at bluelotus@... wrote:

>> If people never keep journals or re-read their old letters, it's harder for
>> them to have a good perspective on their own progress.
>
> You sure sound like a teacher. Not everybody needs to keep the e-mails of the
> "experts" on this list to have a perspective on their progress.

I think this is a good example of one of the types of misunderstandings that
goes on here. It's all about miscommunication and hearing something other
than what was written.

Here's one of the things that happens:

Person A says "I do such and such."

Person B says "People who do such and such can have this problem."

Person A reads Person B's statement as "Such and such is wrong. You're bad
for doing such and such. You should change to do it my way," and responds
defensively.

This is the result of the different ways we use language. It can be a result
of how we've heard sentence structures used in real life. The above may have
been the sentence structure we heard as a child that was used as an insult
so we "hear" that insulting tone when the writer obviously used no tone at
all.

And the above could be taken personally. You could respond with "I didn't do
that" or "That's not what happened." But that would be taking it personally
and not talking about the *idea* of miscommunication.

The first quote is about the *idea* of being able to look back and compare
years ago thinking with today's thinking.

If you look at the idea and don't see it as a personal comment, is there
something untrue about "If people never keep journals or re-read their old
letters, it's harder for them to have a good perspective on their own
progress"?

(Though come to think of it, I *think* (though perhaps I'm deluding myself!
;-) I've got a good memory of my past thinking to compare to present
thinking. I keep drawing on it to explain to people why they believe
something is true (for example, math needs hours of practice) and why that
isn't right and what is right and why it's right.)

But what it *doesn't* say is "You're a bad person if you don't keep a
journal."

Joyce

Shyrley

On 15 Dec 02, at 12:36, Yol, Vishnu & Shanti wrote:


>
> With me it's not so much about "getting it." What I'm saying is that
> you guys need to check your hollier-than-thou attitude. In other
> words, it seems that you're trying to *teach* newcomers how to
> unschool, but you can have a different attitude with the people
> who-have-been-here-long-enough. It's a question of self-awareness, but
> of course that's an individual thing. I cannot make you se what you
> don't want to see. You guys are perhaps a little too defensive about
> YOUR concept of unschooling.

When I joined this group, not that long ago I came with an attitude
that I wanted to learn and needed support.
I've always found answers to my questions here plus a great deal of
support for those times when I failed to trust my gut instinct and
my children and expressed my concerns about unschooling.

I have learned a great deal from people here and have never felt
critised when I asked questions.

> You sure sound like a teacher. Not everybody needs to keep the e-mails
> of the "experts" on this list to have a perspective on their progress.

Actually I've kept some of Sandra's emails and Joyce's for times
when I need a clever answer and my brain isnt working :-)



> What I meant was that I didn't undestand what that had to do with my
> post. You're constantly projecting outside and very quick to label
> people. You're always right and the newcomers are the ones who have
> all the problems. Again, lack of self-awareness... Never mind... I
> hardly doubt I will stick much longer in this clique. I've heard
> people on other lists express the same things about you guys I see for
> myself. Except that I call it lack of self-awareness and they have
> much harsher words for it.
>
> Yol
>

I would call it experience myself. I for one am so pleased to be able
to talk to people with older kids who unschool and learn from them
as their kids approached college or whatever.

Just my five eggs worth

Shyrley


"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."

Betsy

**

You sure sound like a teacher. Not everybody needs to keep the e-mails
of the "experts" on this list to have a
perspective on their progress.**

I think she suggested that the other person keep *her own* emails and
look back on them in the future. Totally different scenario.

Betsy

gruvystarchild <[email protected]>

"I've heard people on other lists
express the same things about you guys I see for
myself. Except that I call it lack of self-awareness and they have
much harsher
words for it."

Now THAT sounds very cliqueish to me!!!
Funny how people at other lists spend time and energy talking about
this one, but nobody here seems to focus on what the other lists are
doing or saying....
hmmmm?

Deborah Lewis

***What I'm saying is that you guys need to check your hollier-than-thou
attitude. In other words, it seems that you're trying to *teach*
newcomers how to
unschool, but you can have a different attitude with the people
who-have-been-here-long-enough. It's a question of self-awareness, but of
course that's an individual thing. I cannot make you se what you
don't want to see. You guys are perhaps a little too defensive about YOUR
concept of unschooling.***

Yol, If I said to you, I love yoga, and I've learned a lot and I really,
really think it's the right thing for me, and I told you I practiced it
by sitting in a half lotus at a cock fight while shooting up, (why do I
persist in these horrible analogies?) don't you think you would feel
inclined to tell me I might not have the best understanding of yoga?
Wouldn't you want to let me know that yoga can be so much more than a
sitting posture, that it could in fact, be a life changing experience if
only I'd open my mind to all the possibilities?
If you and I have such a different concept of yoga, would you be silent
while I helped others find yoga the way I know it? Would that be the best
yoga help they could get? Or would it be better to hear more, and think
of more possibilities?

Because someone knows more possibilities of unschooling doesn't make them
better people. I've never gotten the impression here that anyone thinks
of themselves as better human beings than others. But like all things
some can have more experience, some can have broader understanding, some
can have better ideas. No one here is looking down on you. You don't
want my cheap (free!) psychoanalyses so I won't give it (but just barely)
but no one thinks they are better than you are.

I'm sorry you have felt picked on. I really think we would miss your
contribution if you left.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 12:37:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bluelotus@... writes:

> >If people never keep journals or re-read their old letters, it's harder for
> >them to have a good perspective on their own progress.
>
> You sure sound like a teacher. Not everybody needs to keep the e-mails of
> the "experts" on this list to have a perspective on their progress.
>
I don't know if you read this very quickly or not but she was saying one's
OWN letters and old journals, not list postings.
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 12:37:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bluelotus@... writes:

> Again, lack of self-awareness... Never mind... I hardly doubt I will stick
> much longer in this clique. I've heard people on other lists express the
> same things about you guys I see for
> myself. Except that I call it lack of self-awareness and they have much
> harsher words for it.
>
>
OH!!!! Now I see! Did you actually come here with a notion of what you'd
find? Did you come here because you wanted to see what "the others'" were
talking about?
You came here looking for trouble. You stirred stuff up.
Go back to your other lists and talk all you want.
If you come to an email list looking for a "fight" you'll find one. At ANY
list.
You are what is known on email lists and newsgroups as a Troll
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/2002 6:55:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:
> OH!!!! Now I see! Did you actually come here with a notion of what you'd
> find? Did you come here because you wanted to see what "the others'" were
> talking about?
> You came here looking for trouble. You stirred stuff up.
> Go back to your other lists and talk all you want.
> If you come to an email list looking for a "fight" you'll find one. At ANY
>
> list.
> You are what is known on email lists and newsgroups as a Troll
> Elissa

Maybe she came here becasue her heart and her mind are seeking a
resolution... Neither of us can really know, though.. Only she. I think that
is only for her to say.
What are you seeking by engaging?

Robin S.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 7:09:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
robin9700@... writes:

> Maybe she came here becasue her heart and her mind are seeking a
> resolution... Neither of us can really know, though.. Only she. I think
> that
> is only for her to say.
> What are you seeking by engaging?
>
> Robin S.
>
>
>

She came here, immediately became defensive and snarky. Then lets slip that
she already knew what the list would be like. I think she came with
preconceived notions and will report back that all her otehr "unschooling"
friends were right about this list.
Eissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 6:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> OH!!!! Now I see! Did you actually come here with a notion of what you'd
> find? Did you come here because you wanted to see what "the others'" were
> talking about?
> You came here looking for trouble. You stirred stuff up.
> Go back to your other lists and talk all you want.
> If you come to an email list looking for a "fight" you'll find one. At ANY
>
> list.
> You are what is known on email lists and newsgroups as a Troll
> Elissa
>


When someone says things like this, I dont understand why others dont say
something about Elissa's comments. That was an out and out horrible
accusation. I almost feel like crying. I think that was the harshest thing I
have heard on here. Yol was here on this list before I was. She even
suggested I check it out. She has never "caused trouble" on other lists, and
I dont think she causes trouble on this one. I usually dont say this, and I
will tolerate A LOT. but I think you owe her an apology.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 7:09:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
robin9700@... writes:

> Maybe she came here becasue her heart and her mind are seeking a
> resolution... Neither of us can really know, though.. Only she. I think
> that
> is only for her to say.
> What are you seeking by engaging?
>
> Robin S.
>

I have to agree here.. A troll does look for trouble, instigates it,
perpetuates it. You are the one trolling. and flaming others too.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 7:29:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> She came here, immediately became defensive and snarky. Then lets slip that
> she already knew what the list would be like. I think she came with
> preconceived notions and will report back that all her otehr "unschooling"
> friends were right about this list.
> Eissa
>

I dont think you know how long Yol has been here and what all she has
contributed. You have a tendacy to make snap judgements. Now if Joyce or
Sandry or Ren responds that Yol is a worthy and welcome member, i am sure
you will start kissing Yol's butt like its covered in honey

Teresa

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

***I dont think you know how long Yol has been here and what all she has
contributed. You have a tendacy to make snap judgements. Now if Joyce
or
Sandry or Ren responds that Yol is a worthy and welcome member, i am
sure
you will start kissing Yol's butt like its covered in honey***

Please take a deep breath. Please consider how you are going to feel
when the weight of what you've posted here is pressing on you sometime in
the next day or so. It is so easy to get lost in anger.

If you are sure, despite calm suggestions to the contrary, that you have
been treated badly by a group of immature egotists, then step higher on
the ladder and be a shining example of maturity and decency. You won't
be sorry you were big enough to let it go.

Deb L

Fetteroll

I'll follow Deb's lead and second the taking a deep breath.

We're each responsible for the tone of the list.

And I think we're all mature enough to handle insults to us or to the list
calmly and rationally without responding in kind. Paraphrasing Deb: don't
stoop to the level you feel someone should be reprimanded for.

AnneO posted this to the boards today:

> I had four questions to ask yourself when you are able to stop and NOT yell (I
> believe they're from the book [Everyday Blessings by Jon Kabat-Zinn] I
mentioned above):
>
> 1) Why am I reacting so strongly in this situation?
>
> 2) Where is this going to take me if I continue in this direction?
>
> 3) What does my child REALLY need from me right now?
>
> 4) What are my other choices besides this intense emotion that I'm feeling?

I think we could find ways those apply to responding to the list.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

[email protected]

grlynbl@... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/15/02 7:09:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>robin9700@... writes:
>
>gt; Maybe she came here becasue her heartnbsp; and her mind are seeking a
>gt; resolution... Neither of us can really know, though.. Only she.nbsp; I think
>gt; that
>gt; is only for her to say.
>gt; What are you seeking by engaging?nbsp;
>gt;
>gt; Robin S.
>gt;
>
>I have to agree here.. A troll does look for trouble, instigates it,
>perpetuates it.nbsp; You are the one trolling. and flaming others too.
>
>Teresa,,<<

The statement I made is a universal statement, and it applies to me , asl well.  I think that maybe you are seeking validation for your observations regarding the tone of the responses that you have received.  Although I do not remember who said what and to whom and first, I have perceived that both "sides" have hit below the belt. I am not on either side. Sometimes the best defense is no defense....one can choose to not take offense/defense (no matter how "appealingly" it is dished ouit!).  Ignore some of those voices and put some on "the back burner" to consider in time (your choice) on the way to refining your own truth...and that can change with time and experience (for everyone)...that's a good thing.

Blessings and peace to you,
Robin S.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
>If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 8:44:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

> Please take a deep breath. Please consider how you are going to feel
> when the weight of what you've posted here is pressing on you sometime in
> the next day or so. It is so easy to get lost in anger.
>
> If you are sure, despite calm suggestions to the contrary, that you have
> been treated badly by a group of immature egotists, then step higher on
> the ladder and be a shining example of maturity and decency. You won't
> be sorry you were big enough to let it go.
>
>

Since responses are aimed at the "general audience" Please clarify to whom
you are addressing this post. I hope to God you mean Elissa. Did you read
what she said about Yol?????? Why cant she be the bigger better individual??


Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 9:46:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
robin9700@... writes:

> Although I do not remember who said what and to whom and first, I have
> perceived that both "sides" have hit below the belt. I am not on either
> side.

I think a big part of the conflict is that folks have not followed the thread
closely ( not just you) I have never percieved you as "for or against"
either side or viewpoint.. I do appreciate that you have been able to express
some points that have eluded me. I have felt like you offered some real
life situations that some folks want to sugar coat or pretend do not exist.
Thanks again

Teresa


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Mary Bianco

>From: Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@...>

(snip) <<Yol, If I said to you, I love yoga, and I've learned a lot and I
really, really think it's the right thing for me, and I told you I practiced
it by sitting in a half lotus at a cock fight while shooting up,>>

Deb L, I've loved a lot of things you have said on this list, but this one
even creeps me out! LOL!!!!!

Mary B

_________________________________________________________________
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Deborah Lewis

***Deb L, I've loved a lot of things you have said on this list, but this
one
even creeps me out! LOL!!!!!***

Mary......come to the dark side......

<G>
Deb L, who never did either of those nasty things, if that helps ease the
creeps.

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 8:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> I dont think you know how long Yol has been here and what all she has
> contributed.

OK, How long has Yol been here?
You have a tendacy to make snap judgements.

How do you know this?
Now if Joyce or
>
> Sandry or Ren responds that Yol is a worthy and welcome member, i am sure
> you will start kissing Yol's butt like its covered in honey
>

I doubt it.

> Teresa
>
>



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Kelli Traaseth

Deb,

I thought this analogy was great,

I am just beginning my journey with yoga, so I'm not trying to pass judgement. I am only relaying some of my thoughts.

Alot of what I've been reading on yoga doesn't jive with negativity, I guess when I get caught up in negative or critical thinking, I think--is this the way Patanjali (a great yogi) would have acted or spoke?

Its very hard to see past our own internal feelings and see what is actually happening. I would guess that it is especially hard to see actuality on a computer screen.

Kind-of off the topic of unschooling, yet it has enabled me to stop and see my kids for who they are, not for who I want them to be.

Kelli

Mary Bianco <mummyone24@...> wrote:>From: Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@...>

(snip) <<Yol, If I said to you, I love yoga, and I've learned a lot and I
really, really think it's the right thing for me, and I told you I practiced
it by sitting in a half lotus at a cock fight while shooting up,>>

Deb L, I've loved a lot of things you have said on this list, but this one
even creeps me out! LOL!!!!!

Mary B

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yol, Vishnu & Shanti

Deb,

First of all, I want to thank you for your reply. It seems that you do want to come to a mutual understanding, instead of just writing me off, labeling, of treating me like a kid who knows nothing about unschooling or this list, etc. I consider this a much more mature reaction than all the previous ones (yours and others') to my posts. And I truly appreciate that.

Second, I never felt *I* was picked on. But I have observed the attitude I was criticizing since I joined this list. So, no apology needed there. It was a general observation on the dynamics of this list, not a personal defense in particular. I do not take things so personally when it comes to e-lists, because to be totally honest with you, I don't care much about what others think of me. I've always been what you may call *unconventional*
and I tend to have very strong opinions about things.

To follow on your example of yoga, there is so much so-called yoga out there it's pretty amazing. It's become one of the best business in this country. have you noticed they use yoga postures to advertise everything now? Do I consider *that* to be yoga? No, of course. I am part of an ancient lineage where yoga still means "union with God," where yoga is a series of sacred practices that lead to meditation and liberation, not the latest fad
to to get a *sexy body* or *be cool* or things like that. We call that bhoga (or "experience of the world").

Yet I know it's human nature to bend and distort and use and misuse everything we find. So, who am I to say "This is yoga and this is not. You're wrong." It would just be my ego talking, and that would not be very yogic, right? We host a meditation center here in NC. Am I going to say, "What you have been doing so far is not meditation!"? NO, I take people from where they're at and move forward WITH them, sharing practices, tricks,
experiences, whatever. Otherwise they would leave and never come back, right?

What I mean here is that if you follow an *unschooling* philosophy (which I think I do, regardless of what the "experts" may say), then it must be a philosophy of your whole life, of how you talk and relate to your kids, to your spouses, to your fellow homeschoolers, to your fellow list participants, and to life. That's what made me wonder if it was worth being on this list. I truly believe that if you want to unschool you need
self-awareness: self-awarenes of your own school-trained mind, of the tendencies you grew up and were raised with, of all the crap you absorbed from your parents, siblings, teachers, partners, etc., that creeps up on you when you are faced with the responsibility of being a conscious parent and an unschooler. The way I see it, you have to constantly keep an eye on yourself because that's an important part of what your kids are learning.

Perhaps I expected more self-awareness from this list. My mistake, I suppose. And my mistake again to try to bring it to the attention of its participants.

I am a conscious parent, and I believe in unschooling as much as I believe in Rousseau's or Holt's ideas, the continuum concept, breastfeeding my daughter on demand til she was 4, having a family bed, and respecting her needs, her inner intelligence and her choices. And yes, I interrupt my conversations when she needs to tell me something because I consider she has less control over her impulses and I want her to feel heard and respected
like any adult. Or else, I ask her politely to wait a minute. I've seen mothers almost spank their kids because they want to stop their dance class and go pee! I take my daughter seriously, her needs, her desires, her thoughts, her imaginations, her feelings, you name it. To me, that's unschooling. I would never say to her, listen, you haven't been on Earth long enough to understand what this is all about. I thrive on watching her unfold
and discover for herself. So, I don't like it when someone here says that to me or someone else either. I hope you can understand that.

I appreciate you wanting me to stay and participate. I am still here. I think it's important to have a place where we can share, learn and support each other in the choices we've made for ourselves and our children.

Regards,

Yol



> ***What I'm saying is that you guys need to check your hollier-than-thou
> attitude. In other words, it seems that you're trying to *teach*
> newcomers how to
> unschool, but you can have a different attitude with the people
> who-have-been-here-long-enough. It's a question of self-awareness, but of
> course that's an individual thing. I cannot make you se what you
> don't want to see. You guys are perhaps a little too defensive about YOUR
> concept of unschooling.***
>
> Yol, If I said to you, I love yoga, and I've learned a lot and I really,
> really think it's the right thing for me, and I told you I practiced it
> by sitting in a half lotus at a cock fight while shooting up, (why do I
> persist in these horrible analogies?) don't you think you would feel
> inclined to tell me I might not have the best understanding of yoga?
> Wouldn't you want to let me know that yoga can be so much more than a
> sitting posture, that it could in fact, be a life changing experience if
> only I'd open my mind to all the possibilities?
> If you and I have such a different concept of yoga, would you be silent
> while I helped others find yoga the way I know it? Would that be the best
> yoga help they could get? Or would it be better to hear more, and think
> of more possibilities?
>
> Because someone knows more possibilities of unschooling doesn't make them
> better people. I've never gotten the impression here that anyone thinks
> of themselves as better human beings than others. But like all things
> some can have more experience, some can have broader understanding, some
> can have better ideas. No one here is looking down on you. You don't
> want my cheap (free!) psychoanalyses so I won't give it (but just barely)
> but no one thinks they are better than you are.
>
> I'm sorry you have felt picked on. I really think we would miss your
> contribution if you left.
>
> Deb L
>
>

--
Blue Lotus Therapeutics
Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Yoga and Therapeutic Massage.
Asheville/Weaverville, NC
www.bluelotustherapeutics.com

Dhyanyoga Center of North Carolina
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
Weaverville, NC
www.dyc-nc.org

***********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
***********************************


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Yol, Vishnu & Shanti

> > Again, lack of self-awareness... Never mind... I hardly doubt I will stick
> > much longer in this clique. I've heard people on other lists express the
> > same things about you guys I see for
> > myself. Except that I call it lack of self-awareness and they have much
> > harsher words for it.
> >
> >
> OH!!!! Now I see! Did you actually come here with a notion of what you'd
> find? Did you come here because you wanted to see what "the others'" were
> talking about?
> You came here looking for trouble. You stirred stuff up.

> Go back to your other lists and talk all you want.
> If you come to an email list looking for a "fight" you'll find one. At ANY
> list.

No, that is a wrong assumption. I happen to be on several lists and some people on other lists are or have been here as well. Someone mentioned this one, and so on... I was already here. And no, I didn't come looking for trouble. And no, I am not fighting, I was simply expressing my opinion, just like everyone else in here.

>
> You are what is known on email lists and newsgroups as a Troll

I don't think so. You are making wrong assumptions. And if calling me a troll is meant to be an insult (it's the first time I hear that word), well... that's your choice.

>
> Elissa
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--
Blue Lotus Therapeutics
Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Yoga and Therapeutic Massage.
Asheville/Weaverville, NC
www.bluelotustherapeutics.com

Dhyanyoga Center of North Carolina
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
Weaverville, NC
www.dyc-nc.org

***********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
***********************************


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

Yol,
I'm glad you stayed.
We may not come to full agreement here but that's alright.
I realize you thought my comment about low self esteem was meant to be
insulting.
That wasn't my intention. It has been my observation that people, women
friends of mine, who suffer from low self esteem feel insulted easily,
and when no insult was given. Similar to the way a woman who is abused
flinches when someone raises a hand quickly.
I wasn't making a crack about it, I was thinking out loud and trying to
understand.
I was considering the possibility. You don't have to agree.<g>

I hope you can imaging me sounding gentle here, calm and interested and
not snarky.

I think I understand your point about meditation, that you wouldn't tell
someone they had been doing it wrong when they come to you. I
understand keeping someone on the path, even if there isn't full
understanding, because the path itself will eventually lead there. But
what if, once they're at your clinic they continued to practice in a way
that won't move them forward? Would you tell them then that they
might have to give up some old practices to understand the new ones?
How would you encourage them to stretch beyond what they are comfortable
with? And how would you translate that to helping someone make a
stretch in unschooling? If a mother was here trying to understand
unschooling philosophies, but posting about spanking, how would you tell
her she should stop spanking, or would you tell her at all?

One thing about the people offering advice here is that they don't want
one more child to have one more spanking. If there is a good time to
stop it's right now, this very minute, not in two months when the mother
is finally beginning to understand, so many don't waste one minute saying
"STOP! There's a better way and you can change everything right now."
Of course it's not all about spanking, but it's the same idea. Do you
see that? Maybe I'm not being very clear.

And as you said you wouldn't tell people who come to your meditation
center that their previous experience wasn't really meditation how do
you reconcile that with telling those here offering help, that they are
not really helpful? Maybe you'll think this is a stretch on my part.
You might be right. <g> My brain is not functioning at its highest
level today.

I like the way you talk about your daughter.<g> I'm the only unschooler
in my little town, and most of the talk I hear about and to children is
not nearly so loving and thoughtful.
I understand you're sensitivity. I am the same way I think. I wouldn't
like to hear someone tell me I'm not conscious parent. I guess we
differ in our understanding though, of what people here are really saying
when they suggest we make a stretch. I don't hear them saying "you're
doing it all wrong" I hear, "it could be even better." What is the
difference in us, do you think, that you feel it's personal and I don't?


Some things I have changed about my parenting HAVE been very personal.
Some understandings I have come to have been painful. I suppose there
is no way to look closely at ourselves and not be ashamed of some of the
things we find. I have had my parenting criticized and it's not nice.
But I really don't think that's the same thing as what happens here. I
think some of the discussions can inspire us to look more deeply at
ourselves and maybe find those things we're not proud of, but I don't
think the other parents here are telling anyone they are bad. This may
be that place where we can't agree. <g>

I really am glad you're still here. I have enjoyed your posts, I have
found your point of view on many things to be very interesting and I have
appreciated your knowledge.

Deb L