the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> That's too bad.
> I've heard stories like that, of course, but from people who were
unclear on
> what unschooling was or who had NOT seen it work well. And stories
like that
> have been around for years, perpetrated by structured homeschooling
> leadership who wanted to warn "their people" away from the ungodly,
> neglectful "unschoolers."
>
> The source material for some of those stories is out there and
comes around
> periodically.

Interesting, but not really relevant to what I was saying. I've seen
and heard stories like that from real life unschoolers (not just
supposedly made-up stories on a list), people who definitely embrace
an unschooling belief, but struggle with implementing it and
integrating it into a parenting style.

> <<But it doesn't mean that when I'm half
> asleep at midnight I will read them twenty more pages of their Star
> Wars book, or whatever.>>
>
> This is a straw man.

Funny, that kid didn't feel like straw at midnight, with his Star
Wars book in hand :-). Though his hair *is* straw colored...


> To call it a "free-for-all lifestyle" reveals a prejudice.

No, it is simply a term I've chosen for that lifestyle. It's not a
parenting style that I embrace, but it's another one out there. It
may work for some people and their kids, and if so it's neither
better nor worse than any other.

> You can probably
> unschool and maintain that prejudice against other unschoolers, but
it won't
> really benefit you emotionally to do that.

I don't believe I hold any prejudice against others that unschool
like that. If it works for them, great.

> I've never read when I needed to go to sleep. I've said, "I'm
sorry, I'm too
> tired." And so my kids feel comfortable also saying when they're
too tired
> to go and get me something, or too tired to help a sibling, but I
see them
> frequently do something special to make up for it the next day.
it's not "do
> whatever you want whenever you want," as someone said here
earlier. It's do
> things for real reasons, not arbitrary reasons.

I think we're saying very close to the same thing. The thing that I
was trying to get across to the original poster is that it's *okay*
to say "I'm sorry, I'm too tired." She seemed to feel very
uncomfortable with setting any kind of personal limit like that, and
I think therein can lie the road to burnout, if you feel that you
always have to be doing things for your kids, beyond your own
personal comfort or boundaries.

> Most of the homeschooling burnout comes from structure-using
families.

I'd agree with that.

> Truly, those who have claimed "burnout" who are unschoolers and who
have come
> and told us about it seem to be people who never really got into
the flow of
> natural learning, but where hoping for it to happen during off
hours, and
> hoped for it to look like school structure.

I guess I've seen something different, I've seen people who do
embrace unschooling, but struggle with the issue I discussed above,
setting personal limits so they don't feel like they personally have
to be everything to everybody in the household.


> Our limits are philosophical and very real.
> They just don't look like deadlines with rules and kids being
grounded or
> sent to their rooms for breaking rules. It's a whole different way
of
> looking at and living life.

Ditto. And that's what I was trying to get across, that you *can* set
personal limits, and that it is a very different thing from setting
arbitrary rules.


> It's not the "STYLE" of being, it's the understanding behind it,
and the
> trust in human nature and goodness, and the respect for children as
> individual people that has the effect some of us (I'm not the only
one) are
> trying to share.

I'd like to think you're not implying that I (or other people who
have discussed personal limits) *don't* have that trust in human
nature, goodness, and respect for children. I think it's completely
possible to respect your children and yet respect yourself, and I do
see people struggling with how to do that. It's not always easy to
implement, and it's a daily decision-making process. For instance,
I'm working on a new novel, and that usually takes me out of the
house for 2 hours a day to write. But lately, my kids have been
getting stressed whenever I go to write (my husband is always here
with them when I'm not, so they're not being left in arbitrary care).
So should I respect my children's signs of stress and stop going to
write? Or should I respect my own need to have creative outlet and
continue going to write? It doesn't work for me to write every few
days, I lose the flow of the novel. It also doesn't work to write
here in the house with the kids, and it doesn't work to write in
smaller increments than 2 hours. Right now, my answer was to quit
writing for awhile, but I'd be lying if I said I'm completely
thrilled with that. Still, the need of my children came first in this
circumstance. But that doesn't mean it's an easy decision. There's a
constant gap in this place in my life where my novel lies, half
finished. That emptiness will remain until such time as I can work on
it again. Decisions like this happen every day, to real life
unschooling families. Those who respect their children, and yet
struggle with respecting their own needs as well.

I think for any homeschooling parent, whether structured or not,
there's always a fine balance between giving the kids what they need,
and respecting your own needs for privacy, space, intimate time with
spouse, time to exercise or do something creative, read a book
uninterrupted, or whatever. As parents who are with their kids all
day long, we *do* have in common with more structured homeschoolers
this basic issue of time. Schooling parents simply ship their kids
off for 7 hours a day, but we make a choice not to do that. Finding
personal balance and setting personal limits are not issues that are
limited to structured homeschoolers. And for many of us whose
children are still quite young, it can be a big issue. I can see as
my kids get older that it will be less and less of an issue as the
years go by and they develop more of their own interests and an
ability to play independently.


> Well nobody used the word "servant" but you.
> And your characterization of people "doing whatever their children
ask" is
> not a good picture of what's happening in those families where
unschooling is
> working effortlessly.

No, nor was it intended to be. It was in answer to a lengthy question
posed by a parent for whom this is *not* working. And I'd have to say
that I feel that unschooling works very well in our family (most of
the time!), so I was trying to share some things that I've discovered
that help to make it work smoothly for us.

As I said, if a parenting style works for someone, that's fine. Some
people may be much more inclined to follow their children's wishes
100% of the time. Indeed, I have friends for whom they feel that is
their life calling, to just be and do everything that their kids are
interested in. And they're great parents, and great unschoolers too.
They are perfectly happy playing dolls with their youngest, or
reading books to their tribe, or making up plays and puppet shows all
day long. They go to bed when their kids do, and wake up when their
kids do. That is precisely what they want to be doing with their
life, and this child-centered approach works very well for them. For
others, who may have outside interests of their own, there is
sometimes a conflict between what the parent wants and what the child
wants. Or even with no outside interests, there might be a difference
of goals. Like the parent wants to stay up for some intimate time
with their spouse, but one child doesn't go to sleep until midnight
while another one wakes up at 5:30 in the morning. Where does one
find time to sleep, even, in such a circumstance? These are the
things that parents, real true unschooling parents (whether they fit
your personal definition or no) struggle with. There is not *one*
answer that works for all these people, and there never will be.
There's not one way to go about parenting as an unschooler, nor one
decision that works for all. Sometimes even the best decision isn't
going to be the one that makes *everyone* in a family happy (as in my
example with my writing above).

I think each parenting style brings its own gifts and deficits to a
family. While a parent who concentrates 100% on her kids all the time
has a special gift of unlimited time and energy with her kids, it
might have the deficit of her children not seeing her pursue any of
her own goals and plans. She might never take time for herself, and
her own needs. Whereas a parent who chooses to spend time pursuing
their own goals will have to do more problem-solving as conflicts
arise between the parents needs and the children's needs, they also
give their kids the gift of seeing a parent who loves to learn and
follow their own stars. There are, of course, many different styles
and many styles in between these two. I even know unschooling
families where both of the parents work and they hire a nanny to
unschool their kids. That's one extreme. I know another family where
they've chosen to live in a bus so that neither parent had to work
much and they could spend all their time doing what their kids are
interested in. That's another extreme. Most families fall somewhere
in the middle, and thus have to learn (and maybe constantly re-learn)
how to balance the needs and wants of everyone in the family.

Blue Skies,

-Robin-