[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/02 4:38:36 PM, robin9700@... writes:

<< > Maybe because I am trained as a teacher, I have had a bit of difficulty
> maintaining this kind of thought when it comes to "education"...althought
> the word itself is startting to get on my nerves. >>

A lot of us were "trained as teachers" (and I'm using those quotes to
represent the shudder I feel at the "teacher training" in those days, but I
was an English major and only went to the college of education when I had
to). You'll need another excuse. <g>

<<Now I am thinking that I was trained to
> interfer with learning....>>

To quantify it and show evidence of it. And if you destroyed some of the
materials in trying to measure them, there's an acceptable loss situation on
any assembly line.

<<I actually did not answer it
> just to see what wouild happen, and she did not ask again...I actually
> think it was a rhetorical question (the story did answer) and she was
> thinking out loud.
>>

I wouldn't do that too often. You don't have to "answer" the question to
have a dialog.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/2002 10:10:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> In a message dated 12/11/02 4:38:36 PM, robin9700@... writes:
>
> >>A lot of us were "trained as teachers" (and I'm using those quotes to
> represent the shudder I feel at the "teacher training" in those days, but I
>
> was an English major and only went to the college of education when I had
> to). You'll need another excuse. <g><<


Yeah.... my teacher ed was an "add on" as well, although I did "buy into" it.
No excuses. I am not questioning the validity....well
nonvalidity..whatever... of teaching practices or the whole idea of teaching
itself. I am beyond that. (right?);-) If I had not begun to listent to my
children and follow their lead in the first place, I would not be here. The
question of education never came up until "kindergarten" age came along. We
just lived our lives up until that point....no concern or focus what so ever
on learning anything. WIthin a few months of time I have confronted and
peeled off layers of belief (educational)...which were aleady loosened up,in
a sense, by the whole childled way of parenting to begin with. I picked up
the 100 ways and other phonics books and knew they wouldn't "fly" with my
daughter. Tried worksheets for a while, which she did seem to find fun for a
while, then stopped that becasue she lost interest. Tried playing a word
family matching game...she had fun once we started playing, but...not her
favorite game and once I realized she was playing to please me...stopped
that. So I am attached to that one last (hopefully) remnant of fear of
letting go and completely trusting. All we do now is read and play and live
our lives. Four month into this...Just would like to do it totally fearles
s.....


>
> Robin<<Now I am thinking that I was trained to
> >interfer with learning....>>
>
> Sandra>>To quantify it and show evidence of it. And if you destroyed some
> of the
> materials in trying to measure them, there's an acceptable loss situation
> on
> any assembly line.<<

The evidence is not for the child ....it is for the parents the teachers the
administration...I know. It is nagging and obnoxious and rude. Also,the
assisted learning stuff...like I said prereading, during and postreading
questions...all that...says "you need my help to learn...you cannot do it
without me." It also literally interfers with the child's (mine anyones)own
private personal thinking process and way of learning.

>
> Robin<<I actually did not answer it
> >just to see what wouild happen, and she did not ask again...I actually
> >think it was a rhetorical question (the story did answer) and she was
> >thinking out loud.
> >>
>
> Sandra>>I wouldn't do that too often. You don't have to "answer" the
> question to
> have a dialog.<<


Confused here...Do what too long?...Not answer or answer? I didn't answer
the question and the answer was resolved without me answering...now if she
had persisted in asking...

> Thanks,
> Robin
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/12/02 9:04:33 AM, robin9700@... writes:

<< > Sandra>>I wouldn't do that too often. You don't have to "answer" the
> question to
> have a dialog.<<


Confused here...Do what too long?...Not answer or answer? I didn't answer
the question and the answer was resolved without me answering...now if she
had persisted in asking... >>


Not too often ignore questions.
You can draw her out in an exchange so that she processes her thoughts
without "answering her question."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/12/2002 11:14:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Not too often ignore questions.
> You can draw her out in an exchange so that she processes her thoughts
> without "answering her question."
>
> Sandra
>


Right. How do you do that without leading the child? Now that I am aware of
the possiblility of that happening....can't explain it. Maybe I'm taking it
to the extreme here.

Robin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

susan marie

I was a teacher too (catholic school math teacher .. eeewwwww!
:-p ... actually, I had fun at the time.). The first place I heard of
John Holt was in a required sociology of education class. I still have
the book and having recently dug it out (after nearly 20 yrs) I was
quite surprised to see how much I had underlined and taken notes. Guess
I was an unschooler at heart, even then. :-)

peace,
susan


On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 11:01 AM, robin9700@... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/11/2002 10:10:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
> > In a message dated 12/11/02 4:38:36 PM, robin9700@... writes:
> >
> > >>A lot of us were "trained as teachers" (and I'm using those quotes
> to
> > represent the shudder I feel at the "teacher training" in those days,
> but I
> >
> > was an English major and only went to the college of education when I
> had
> > to).    You'll need another excuse. <g><<
>
>
> Yeah.... my teacher ed was an "add on" as well, although I did "buy
> into" it.
> No excuses.  I am not questioning the validity....well
> nonvalidity..whatever... of teaching practices or the whole idea of
> teaching
> itself.   I am beyond that. (right?);-)  If I had not begun to listent
> to my
> children and follow their lead in the first place, I would not be
> here.  The
> question of education never came up until "kindergarten" age came
> along. We
> just lived our lives up until that point....no concern or focus what so
> ever
> on learning anything.  WIthin a few months of time I have confronted and
> peeled off layers of belief (educational)...which were aleady loosened
> up,in
> a sense, by the whole childled  way of parenting to begin with.  I
> picked up
> the 100 ways and other phonics books and knew they wouldn't "fly" with
> my
> daughter.  Tried worksheets for a while, which she did seem to find fun
> for a
> while, then stopped that becasue she lost interest.  Tried playing a
> word
> family matching game...she had fun once we started playing, but...not
> her
> favorite game and once I realized she was playing to please me...stopped
> that.  So I am attached to that one last (hopefully) remnant of fear of
> letting go and completely trusting.  All we do now is read and play and
> live
> our lives.  Four month into this...Just would like to do it totally
> fearles
> s.....
>
>
> >
> > Robin<<Now I am thinking that I was trained to
> > >interfer with learning....>>
> >
> > Sandra>>To quantify it and show evidence of it.  And if you destroyed
> some
> > of the
> > materials in trying to measure them, there's an acceptable loss
> situation
> > on
> > any assembly line.<<
>
> The evidence is not for the child ....it is for the parents the
> teachers the
> administration...I know.  It is nagging and obnoxious and rude. 
> Also,the
> assisted learning stuff...like I said prereading, during and postreading
> questions...all that...says "you need my help to learn...you cannot do
> it
> without me."  It also literally interfers with the child's (mine
> anyones)own
> private personal thinking process and way of learning.  
>
> >
> > Robin<<I actually did not answer it
> > >just to see what wouild happen, and she did not ask again...I
> actually
> > >think it was a rhetorical question (the story did answer) and she was
> > >thinking out loud. 
> > >>
> >
> > Sandra>>I wouldn't do that too often.  You don't have to "answer" the
> > question to
> > have a dialog.<<
>
>
> Confused here...Do what too long?...Not answer or answer?  I didn't
> answer
> the question and the answer was resolved without me answering...now if
> she
> had persisted in asking...
>
> > Thanks,
> > Robin
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
> list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
> an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
peace,
Susan

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead

"All we are saying is give peace a chance."
- John Lennon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/12/02 9:41:51 AM, robin9700@... writes:

<< > You can draw her out in an exchange so that she processes her thoughts
> without "answering her question."
>
> Sandra
>

<<Right. How do you do that without leading the child? >>

By using plain honest questions, like, "In what way?" or "What do you mean?"
or "Do you mean what do *I* think, or what does the guy who made this think?"

The same way you would with an adult friend who had asked the question.

Or you can give more than one answer. As each of my kids asked "who was the
first person on this planet?" I said "Lots of people believe God made Adam,
and then Eve, and they were the first people. And other people beleive that
humans evolved gradually so there never was a clear first one."

They were pretty little so I didn't go into other cultures having other
creation myths.

Holly's most regular questions lately are why a word is spelled the way it
is. So I tell her, if I know, what the history of the word is, or its root,
or its language of origin. She's getting that Greek words have soft g's and
"ph" is going to be f--. If she weren't curious, it wouldn't matter, but
she cares about things like that.

When I answer a question, I try to give one extra piece of info. If the kid
seems interested, the discussion continues, and if not, it doesn't. But
that's no different from seeing a movie, pointing out that it's the same
director or actor or movie-score composer as another movie, and seeing
whether the discussion leaps there or doesn't. And I do the same thing with
my husband and my friends.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/12/2002 12:05:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> <Right. How do you do that without leading the child? >>
>
> By using plain honest questions, like, "In what way?" or "What do you
> mean?"
> or "Do you mean what do *I* think, or what does the guy who made this
> think?"
>
> The same way you would with an adult friend who had asked the question.
>
> Or you can give more than one answer. As each of my kids asked "who was
> the
> first person on this planet?" I said "Lots of people believe God made Adam,
>
> and then Eve, and they were the first people. And other people beleive
> that
> humans evolved gradually so there never was a clear first one."
>
> They were pretty little so I didn't go into other cultures having other
> creation myths.
>
> Holly's most regular questions lately are why a word is spelled the way it
> is. So I tell her, if I know, what the history of the word is, or its
> root,
> or its language of origin. She's getting that Greek words have soft g's
> and
> "ph" is going to be f--. If she weren't curious, it wouldn't matter, but
> she cares about things like that.
>
> When I answer a question, I try to give one extra piece of info. If the
> kid
> seems interested, the discussion continues, and if not, it doesn't. But
> that's no different from seeing a movie, pointing out that it's the same
> director or actor or movie-score composer as another movie, and seeing
> whether the discussion leaps there or doesn't. And I do the same thing
> with
> my husband and my friends.
>
> Sandra
>
>
Thanks for explaining. I have noticed that if there is a smiggen (sp) of
intent beyond sharing and conversation...I think it comes across to my child.
This is what I am hyper aware of at this point. I think I am about done with
thinking about this....just want to enjoy being with my children...I give up!

Robin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Liza Sabater

I ask,

Why do you ask?

or

What do you think?

It leads to some interesting conversations because through these
conversations actually learn more about how he thinks about things. I
end up saying "Oh! I see" a lot.

Liza



At 11:40 AM -0500 12/12/02, robin9700@... wrote:
>In a message dated 12/12/2002 11:14:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>SandraDodd@... writes:
>> Not too often ignore questions.
>> You can draw her out in an exchange so that she processes her thoughts
>> without "answering her question."
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>
>
>Right. How do you do that without leading the child? Now that I am aware of
>the possiblility of that happening....can't explain it. Maybe I'm taking it
>to the extreme here.
>
>Robin
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna <[email protected]>

Hi Susan. I took my first education foundations class two years ago
and we discussed John Holt and unschooling for about 5 minutes. My
instructor dismissed the whole philosophy saying that "child-led
education doesn't work." I've only a semester remaining before I
earn my ele. ed. degree, but in my heart know I can't go on. I hate
every single minute of it. I just want to be at home with my own
kids. Next semester I am scheduled to be in a classroom in a public
school "educating" children. Donna.

> The first place I heard of
> John Holt was in a required sociology of education class. I still
have
> the book and having recently dug it out (after nearly 20 yrs) I was
> quite surprised to see how much I had underlined and taken notes.
Guess
> I was an unschooler at heart, even then. :-)
>
> peace,
> susan
>

susan marie

The joys of student teaching. I hope you get a good co-operating
teacher. I loved teaching, but eventually got burned out by the system.
I always liked the kids, though. Kids respond to being treated with
respect by an adult and kids in public schools are often quite startled
to be treated that way -- think of the popular teachers - what is it
that makes them popular? I think that is the secret common factor - they
treat the students with respect. As an unschooler, you already know this
secret.

Enjoy your teaching, and trust your own instincts, and don't let the
resident faculty room "expert" tell you what to do. :-)

peace,
Susan

On Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 01:12 AM, Donna
<frodolass@...> wrote:

> Hi Susan.  I took my first education foundations class two years ago
> and we discussed John Holt and unschooling for about 5 minutes.  My
> instructor dismissed the whole philosophy saying that "child-led
> education doesn't work."  I've only a semester remaining before I
> earn my ele. ed. degree, but in my heart know I can't go on.  I hate
> every single minute of it.  I just want to be at home with my own
> kids.  Next semester I am scheduled to be in a classroom in a public
> school "educating" children.  Donna.   
>
> > The first place I heard of
> > John Holt was in a required sociology of education class. I still
> have
> > the book and having recently dug it out (after nearly 20 yrs) I was
> > quite surprised to see how much I had underlined and taken notes.
> Guess
> > I was an unschooler at heart, even then. :-)
> >
> > peace,
> > susan
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
> list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
> an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
peace,
Susan

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead

"All we are saying is give peace a chance."
- John Lennon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/13/02 11:13:42 PM, frodolass@... writes:

<< My
instructor dismissed the whole philosophy saying that "child-led
education doesn't work." I've only a semester remaining before I
earn my ele. ed. degree, but in my heart know I can't go on. >>

It doesn't work in public schools.
It worked in laboratory schools (where the kids' parents were education
professors and suchlike) and in alternative (hippy) schools, but once a child
does NOT have the right to leave or to discuss the situation rationally, then
they feel stuck and they start being obstructional or totally uncooperative,
and so not only does it not work for them, they try to make sure it doesn't
work for other kids there.

<<Next semester I am scheduled to be in a classroom in a public
school "educating" children. >>

The best you can do is be dazzling and sparkly and hope to catch the
attention of some kids. And appeal to the natural leaders in the group. If
"cool" kids think you're cool, four or six others will follow each of them.
And say surprising things so they look up and their pulse rate increases.
There's that kind of physical receptiveness that needs to be happening.

Also, get used to the sad fact that for a general shapshot average: if you
have 30 kids ten already know the material, ten don't care, don't WANT to
know and plan to ignore you, and there are ten who actually want to know. So
play to those ten, trying to surprise and engage the other twenty, and 50
minutes will pass in no time.

It doesn't seem right, but if you play to the edges, you lose more kids.

And the more you can get activity happening in small groups, the more direct
and real the learning is. But expect to have parents come and complain that
they didn't send their kids to school to be taught by other students.
(They'll say that because they think teaching is the business of schools,
instead of considering that facilitatinglearning is the business of schools.)

Marty and I just watched Ferris Bueller's Day Off and the teachers are
caricatures of teachers, but each and every bit was something I had seen
done, maybe just not all at once. <g>

So watch that and don't be like that <g>.

Sandra

Donna <[email protected]>

>>> there are ten who actually want to know. So play to those ten,
trying to surprise and engage the other twenty,

Sandra, that's the best advice I've ever received. Thank you!

>>> And the more you can get activity happening in small groups, the
more direct and real the learning is.

Actually, I always use cooperative learning groups when I have to
write lesson plans. My own boys learn best when they work together
to accomplish something, because they each have unique strengths to
contribute.

>>> Marty and I just watched Ferris Bueller's Day Off and the
teachers are caricatures of teachers, but each and every bit was
something I had seen done.

I'm terrified of becoming the teacher played by Ben Stein...LOL.

I have no plans to enter the teaching profession, and had started
classes before we really embraced unschooling - my whole philosophy
is quite different now. My son recently said, "You're not going to
make us learn now are you?" Another reason I want to get my degree
is so I can help other homeschoolers meet the state-required annual
evaluation requirements. Thanks again for your input. Donna.

Kelli Traaseth

Donna and other former teachers,

I also entered college planning on being an English teacher, secondary ed.

Well after 2 semesters I was so depressed with what I was supposed to do to teach.

They showed us this movie called Cypher in the Snow, and I couldn't do it, I changed my major that day... anyone ever see it? boy, did I cry!

Sometimes I feel like a quiter when I think about it because I really wanted to reach and be with kids. But I also know that I probably would have been miserable with school policies and politics,

So...I try and reach my own children and I get to be with them!



Kelli




"Donna <frodolass@...>" <frodolass@...> wrote:>>> there are ten who actually want to know. So play to those ten,
trying to surprise and engage the other twenty,

Sandra, that's the best advice I've ever received. Thank you!

>>> And the more you can get activity happening in small groups, the
more direct and real the learning is.

Actually, I always use cooperative learning groups when I have to
write lesson plans. My own boys learn best when they work together
to accomplish something, because they each have unique strengths to
contribute.

>>> Marty and I just watched Ferris Bueller's Day Off and the
teachers are caricatures of teachers, but each and every bit was
something I had seen done.

I'm terrified of becoming the teacher played by Ben Stein...LOL.

I have no plans to enter the teaching profession, and had started
classes before we really embraced unschooling - my whole philosophy
is quite different now. My son recently said, "You're not going to
make us learn now are you?" Another reason I want to get my degree
is so I can help other homeschoolers meet the state-required annual
evaluation requirements. Thanks again for your input. Donna.


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/2002 12:03:47 PM Central Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:

> They showed us this movie called Cypher in the Snow, and I couldn't do it,
> I changed my major that day... anyone ever see it? boy, did I cry!
>

I'm really curious about this movie!

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Its a story about a boy who is totally neglected, at home, at school, everywhere. He isn't physically abused, but it is all emotional and interal,

Should I tell you the rest? Don't want to wreck the story if you want to see it, yet I don't know if you could even find it anywhere.

Kelli
tuckervill@... wrote:In a message dated 12/15/2002 12:03:47 PM Central Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:

> They showed us this movie called Cypher in the Snow, and I couldn't do it,
> I changed my major that day... anyone ever see it? boy, did I cry!
>

I'm really curious about this movie!

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

I'm glad you posted about this. I saw it in the archives and then couldn't remember the name of the movie to go back and find it.

i want to rent this I think.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelli Traaseth
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Cypher in the Snow



Its a story about a boy who is totally neglected, at home, at school, everywhere. He isn't physically abused, but it is all emotional and interal,

Should I tell you the rest? Don't want to wreck the story if you want to see it, yet I don't know if you could even find it anywhere.

Kelli
tuckervill@... wrote:In a message dated 12/15/2002 12:03:47 PM Central Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:

> They showed us this movie called Cypher in the Snow, and I couldn't do it,
> I changed my major that day... anyone ever see it? boy, did I cry!
>

I'm really curious about this movie!

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/02 11:33:49 AM, kellitraas@... writes:

<< Should I tell you the rest? Don't want to wreck the story if you want
to see it, yet I don't know if you could even find it anywhere. >>

I vote no.
Most of us have stories like that of kids in our heads already, and if we
won't "get" to see the movie without being in teacher training, good for us.

Sandra
who doesn't like depressing stories

Kelli Traaseth

Then I won't,

Kelli


SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 12/15/02 11:33:49 AM, kellitraas@... writes:

<< Should I tell you the rest? Don't want to wreck the story if you want
to see it, yet I don't know if you could even find it anywhere. >>

I vote no.
Most of us have stories like that of kids in our heads already, and if we
won't "get" to see the movie without being in teacher training, good for us.

Sandra
who doesn't like depressing stories

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peggy

No wonder that girl punk bank picked the name, Cypher in the Snow.

Scary page in general. ;)

I walked into my first education mass 300 people lecture at University with a
little guy with a bow tie up behind the podium and immediately walked out and
changed my major. Best decision I ever made. ;)

Peggy



http://www.cybervillage.com/proctor/staff%20development2/Social%20Studies/Economics%20Unit%20D%20Vashio%20&%20P%20Nojaim.htm

Viewing of the video Cypher in the Snow will be the
initiating activity. Following the video, the above
mentioned questions again will be asked and
discussed at length. Students will deduct that in
addition to the basic needs of food, shelter and
clothing, there is a need for love. Love is an additional
need. Cypher died because he was not valued and
loved----the word cypher means, zero, nothing, void.
Some may deduce that. The story is titled Cypher in
the Snow, because the boy was a "nothing". Following
this discussion, the students will collaborate in teams
of four, using Think-Pair-Share and Pairs-Check
strategies to redefine the term "Economics".
Continuing in their collaborative groups, the students
will be asked to define the word "Economics" without
using the word "money" via deductive reasoning and
discussio

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/2002 2:19:03 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> <<Should I tell you the rest? Don't want to wreck the story if you want
> to see it, yet I don't know if you could even find it anywhere. >>
>
> I vote no.
> Most of us have stories like that of kids in our heads already, and if we
> won't "get" to see the movie without being in teacher training, good for
> us.
>
> Sandra
> who doesn't like depressing stories
>

Oh, I've heard enough. I couldn't get why it was relevant to teacher's
training, and that little bit helped me enough. And if I ever run across it,
I'll know what it is. Thanks!

Tuck


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