Stephanie Elms

OK. I am trying to give up control. I really am. But I seem to be still fighting it. Most
the time I am ok with it, but I feel like there needs to be some balance and I am having
a hard time finding it. I keep second guessing myself...am I responding to his needs...
am I neglecting mine... how do I know?

The latest thing is bedtime. I have always had a love/hate thing with sleeping and Jason.
When he was about a year, I finally surrendered to my reality and started co-sleeping.
I would nurse/lay with him until he fell asleep. When he was 2, he went through a phase of
not falling asleep easily, so I let him stay up. Finally around 3 things seemed to
even out...he had given up his naps so he was easily falling asleep around 9. He
stayed in our room until he was 4 yrs old and then I would still lay down with him
to fall asleep. Last year we had progressed to where I could lay with him for a little
while and then leave. Then he started having problems falling asleep again, so I would
let him stay up in my craft room with me while I did my rubber stamping. He would tell
me when he was tired and fall asleep easily. The first couple of weeks he stayed up until
10 or 11. After that he would ask to go to sleep around 8:30 and 9. I felt vindicated! I had
always said that he would be able to self-regulate when given the choice.

Now it is a year later and things have changed. Part of it I am sure is because it is
cold out and we are not getting out as much. Part of it is that he no longer has to
get up at 8 am for preschool. Plus he is not getting as much activity now (in addition
to the activity at the preschool, we usually would play with his best friend (who
we car pooled with) after school for an hour or more). He is staying up until 11 (or
later). If I let him sleep until he wakes up, he sleeps until around 9.

The problem is this...I am feeling smothered. Jason is a very intense little boy.
I love him to death but he is an extrovert in the extreme sense of the word. If he
is awake, he wants interaction. He will play by himself (for short periods of time),
but never alone - he never goes into his own room to play alone. The worst feeling
in the world for him is to feel lonely. Most of his favorite activities include some
other person. He has never been the type to color at the table while I do the dishes...
he always wanted me to color *with* him. It has gotten a bit better now that Kyle is
getting older (will be 3 in Feb), takes some of the pressure off me. I am coming to
accept this part of his personality and trying to work with it...we invite friends
over often (still trying to make some hsing connections so we can find more friends
during the day).

Kyle has just given up his naps and is usually asleep by 9. And up by 7:30. Plus
something is going on and he has started nursing a lot at night (he starts out in
Jason's room and then I get him when he wakes up) so I have not been getting too
much sleep. So now I have been trying to get to bed around midnight...which if Jason
is not asleep until 11 or later does not leave much time for me to get anything done.
I do get out to rubber stamping clubs about 3 or 4 times a month. Getting up earlier
does not help because 7:30 is pretty early for me if I have been up a couple of times
a night and if I get up early, Kyle usually gets up early too.

I have been trying to talk with Jason about how mommy has needs to...that there are a lot
of boring things that I try to leave for when he is asleep. How mommy needs down time and likes
to have time alone with daddy or by herself. I think that what is getting to me lately is that
I see that he is getting tired, but he is really *trying* to stay awake. We have also
been talking about listening to your body and what it is trying to tell you. But he is fighting
it...it is turning into a control thing ( which I usually try to avoid). Since I have been
letting up on controlling him (we gave up tv and food controls about 2-3 months ago), control
seems to be more of an issue with him, if that makes any sense.

The other problem I have is dh. He does not agree with my approach at all and thinks that I
am being a doormat. He has absolutely no problem with expecting Jason to stay up in his
room after a certain time. He wants to have time to watch his tv shows, relax and spend time
with me. So I feel like I am trying to balance both dh's and Jason's needs and it is
not happening.

I am not dealing with this well and would appreciate all insight. Tonight I decided that since
dh is away until Friday, I would try a new approach. We watched a little tv while I nursed
Kyle to sleep. Jason then wanted to listen to the Wizard of Oz audio tape we got from the
library. I told him that I had some cleaning to do, but when he was tired to let me know
and I would go up and lay down with him (thinking that I could get some of my needs met
to get something done and still meet his needs of not being alone when he goes to sleep). He
said that he was tired around 10 but wanted to me to read to him. I said that it was
too late for that (I really was tired, but looking back on it, it would not have killed
me to read a chapter...I think that it was my way of still controlling the situation). We
went up and laid down. He ended up getting fidgety, getting up for water etc etc etc. I
ended up losing it. All I want is for him to go to sleep when he is tired!

This is not the way that I want to end the day. But I am really struggling with giving
up the control thing....I go back and forth between completely seeing his point of view
(it sucks to know that my two favorite people are downstairs while I am stuck up here
in this room) and completely feeling smothered and feeling like a couple of hours in
the evening to myself is not too much to ask. Having him stay up late makes me feel
very stressed for time...btween keeping up with the house, spending time with hubby,
keeping up with my e-lists (which often keep me sane) and trying to find time to
relax and read and now needing more sleep since Kyle is up so much, I am really going
crazy.

I really need a new perspective here...but I feel like the more that I give up control,
the more Jason pushes and pushes. How do I know when to draw the line? Is it ok to draw
a line? I kind of feel like I have to draw a line or else I start getting resentful.
Is this resentfulness something that I just need to adjust my attitude on or is
it a sign that things need to come back into balance. And how do I get them back into
balance if that is the case. I just feel like my personality would make it very easy
to swing too far out of balance.

I am looking for a local gym, rec center or y around
here that would have a program for the kids so I can take a yoga class and they can play
and wear themselves out a bit. I am working on making connections in the hs community
so that Jason can go to friend's houses for playdates (I had a great network made up of
his friends but they are all in school during the day now). I am also working on getting
our living room set up with a tv and comfy couches etc thinking that maybe if dh
can watch his shows in the family room and Jason stays in the living room then maybe
that will take some of the pressure off. Any other ideas? Any ideas
for tiring an active 6 yo out? Any ideas for helping hubby not take this personally
and realize that in 10 years this period of our lives will seem much shorter and less
important then it does now? Any ideas for eeking out some time to get things done
around the house (and please know that I am not expecting to keep the house spotless,
but the clutter gets awful and I start going crazy).

I know that I just need to make that shift in my attitude, but I am having a hard time
doing it. I did it when he was little, but it is harder now that he is 6...I honestly
thought that the bedtime thing would be solved by now. I just feel like I have screwed
everything up somehow and turned it into a control issue without even meaning to.

Sorry for the frantic sound to this post...I am just feeling very exhausted. I need
to go to bed now...Kyle will probably be up in a few hours....

Stephanie E.

kayb85 <[email protected]>

You sound like me a few weeks ago. What time of the month is it? lol
Seriously, stuff like this stresses me out at certain times of the
months more than others.

But I struggle with this at all times of the months. The situation
in our family is that all 3 kids want me to lay with them before they
go to sleep. Sometimes I'm not ready for bed but I'm too mentally
tired to keep going doing all kinds of stuff for/with them. They
would keep me going until 3 am doing all kinds of stuff and
eventually I would lose it. No human being can keep being torn in 3
directions being constantly used all day long and half the night.

I considered agreeing on a bedtime with them, but it wouldn't work
setting the same time every night, since dh likes to watch tv shows
or movies with me on some nights depending on his work schedule, but
on other nights he's in bed at 9 pm. And I like the kids being
flexible with their sleeping, so that they can go places and stay up
later and not be crabby and falling asleep.

So what I've been doing is each evening I tell the kids the
approximate time that we're going up to bed. They know they have the
option of staying up later than me and getting themselves into bed,
but they don't want to do that. I think just knowing that option
exists keeps them from complaining about going to bed. What they
would complain about is me going to bed and not laying with them
first.

They fight over who I'm going to lay with first sometimes. I try to
rotate fairly. If one child seems particularly needy one night, I'll
try to lay with him first. Sometimes it works out nice, sometimes
they fight and whine over who I lay with first.

Tonight's bedtime went like this: While I was doing something for dd,
the boys got all of the clean washcloths wet, climbed up onto the top
bunk bed and cleaned their ceiling fan off. SIGH! Then I had to
change the 3 year old's clothes because he was soaking wet. The 5
year old went to get a drink of water from a cup we had sitting on
the bathroom sink and spilled it. He cleaned it up, but he was upset
because he said he hurt his hands on the ice cubes. And the 9 year
old was upset because she thought I layed with the boys too long and
she was tired and wished I could have come to her room sooner. My 9
year old and I made up a funny story together, about her stuffed
snowmen. It's an ongoing story that we continue each night. That
was kind of fun. There was a fly on the wall and the 5 year old
wanted me to kill it. Then when we killed it, I had to find it. And
the 5 year old's pillow case came off and I had to put it on, and he
felt the tags on his pillow, some of which seem to be actually inside
of the pillow, and he doesn't like that. We had to discuss why there
are tags on pillows and he wants me to buy him a new pillow that
doesn't have tags on the inside. And he wants to know when I will
wash his favorite stuffed animal, because the 3 year old threw it in
the toilet tonight and there wasn't time to wash it before bed.

After all that, it is really hard for me to just settle down and
contentedly fall asleep. I need to unwind. I went into my room for
a few minutes until I was sure they were all asleep, and then I snuck
downstairs to the computer. :) I need to unwind and think my own
thoughts for just a little while before I can go to sleep myself.
But I should get upstairs soon, because tomorrow I have promised to
go sleigh riding, bake chocolate chip cookies, buy a new filter for
the fish tank, make a phone call, and find my 5 year old's directions
for the star wars legos, which he swears is in a "white thing"
somewhere on the booskhelf. I will probably be able to do all that
tomorrow--the problem is that by noon they will have about 10 more
things added to the list that they want me to do. I cannot do them
all and I will start to feel guilty that I am not doing everything
that they want me to do. There are three of them and one of me. I
am outnumbered! lol

Sheila

--- In [email protected], "Stephanie Elms"
<stephanie.elms@d...> wrote:
> OK. I am trying to give up control. I really am. But I seem to be
still fighting it. Most
> the time I am ok with it, but I feel like there needs to be some
balance and I am having
> a hard time finding it. I keep second guessing myself...am I
responding to his needs...
> am I neglecting mine... how do I know?
>
> The latest thing is bedtime. I have always had a love/hate thing
with sleeping and Jason.
> When he was about a year, I finally surrendered to my reality and
started co-sleeping.
> I would nurse/lay with him until he fell asleep. When he was 2, he
went through a phase of
> not falling asleep easily, so I let him stay up. Finally around 3
things seemed to
> even out...he had given up his naps so he was easily falling asleep
around 9. He
> stayed in our room until he was 4 yrs old and then I would still
lay down with him
> to fall asleep. Last year we had progressed to where I could lay
with him for a little
> while and then leave. Then he started having problems falling
asleep again, so I would
> let him stay up in my craft room with me while I did my rubber
stamping. He would tell
> me when he was tired and fall asleep easily. The first couple of
weeks he stayed up until
> 10 or 11. After that he would ask to go to sleep around 8:30 and 9.
I felt vindicated! I had
> always said that he would be able to self-regulate when given the
choice.
>
> Now it is a year later and things have changed. Part of it I am
sure is because it is
> cold out and we are not getting out as much. Part of it is that he
no longer has to
> get up at 8 am for preschool. Plus he is not getting as much
activity now (in addition
> to the activity at the preschool, we usually would play with his
best friend (who
> we car pooled with) after school for an hour or more). He is
staying up until 11 (or
> later). If I let him sleep until he wakes up, he sleeps until
around 9.
>
> The problem is this...I am feeling smothered. Jason is a very
intense little boy.
> I love him to death but he is an extrovert in the extreme sense of
the word. If he
> is awake, he wants interaction. He will play by himself (for short
periods of time),
> but never alone - he never goes into his own room to play alone.
The worst feeling
> in the world for him is to feel lonely. Most of his favorite
activities include some
> other person. He has never been the type to color at the table
while I do the dishes...
> he always wanted me to color *with* him. It has gotten a bit better
now that Kyle is
> getting older (will be 3 in Feb), takes some of the pressure off
me. I am coming to
> accept this part of his personality and trying to work with it...we
invite friends
> over often (still trying to make some hsing connections so we can
find more friends
> during the day).
>
> Kyle has just given up his naps and is usually asleep by 9. And up
by 7:30. Plus
> something is going on and he has started nursing a lot at night (he
starts out in
> Jason's room and then I get him when he wakes up) so I have not
been getting too
> much sleep. So now I have been trying to get to bed around
midnight...which if Jason
> is not asleep until 11 or later does not leave much time for me to
get anything done.
> I do get out to rubber stamping clubs about 3 or 4 times a month.
Getting up earlier
> does not help because 7:30 is pretty early for me if I have been up
a couple of times
> a night and if I get up early, Kyle usually gets up early too.
>
> I have been trying to talk with Jason about how mommy has needs
to...that there are a lot
> of boring things that I try to leave for when he is asleep. How
mommy needs down time and likes
> to have time alone with daddy or by herself. I think that what is
getting to me lately is that
> I see that he is getting tired, but he is really *trying* to stay
awake. We have also
> been talking about listening to your body and what it is trying to
tell you. But he is fighting
> it...it is turning into a control thing ( which I usually try to
avoid). Since I have been
> letting up on controlling him (we gave up tv and food controls
about 2-3 months ago), control
> seems to be more of an issue with him, if that makes any sense.
>
> The other problem I have is dh. He does not agree with my approach
at all and thinks that I
> am being a doormat. He has absolutely no problem with expecting
Jason to stay up in his
> room after a certain time. He wants to have time to watch his tv
shows, relax and spend time
> with me. So I feel like I am trying to balance both dh's and
Jason's needs and it is
> not happening.
>
> I am not dealing with this well and would appreciate all insight.
Tonight I decided that since
> dh is away until Friday, I would try a new approach. We watched a
little tv while I nursed
> Kyle to sleep. Jason then wanted to listen to the Wizard of Oz
audio tape we got from the
> library. I told him that I had some cleaning to do, but when he was
tired to let me know
> and I would go up and lay down with him (thinking that I could get
some of my needs met
> to get something done and still meet his needs of not being alone
when he goes to sleep). He
> said that he was tired around 10 but wanted to me to read to him. I
said that it was
> too late for that (I really was tired, but looking back on it, it
would not have killed
> me to read a chapter...I think that it was my way of still
controlling the situation). We
> went up and laid down. He ended up getting fidgety, getting up for
water etc etc etc. I
> ended up losing it. All I want is for him to go to sleep when he is
tired!
>
> This is not the way that I want to end the day. But I am really
struggling with giving
> up the control thing....I go back and forth between completely
seeing his point of view
> (it sucks to know that my two favorite people are downstairs while
I am stuck up here
> in this room) and completely feeling smothered and feeling like a
couple of hours in
> the evening to myself is not too much to ask. Having him stay up
late makes me feel
> very stressed for time...btween keeping up with the house, spending
time with hubby,
> keeping up with my e-lists (which often keep me sane) and trying to
find time to
> relax and read and now needing more sleep since Kyle is up so much,
I am really going
> crazy.
>
> I really need a new perspective here...but I feel like the more
that I give up control,
> the more Jason pushes and pushes. How do I know when to draw the
line? Is it ok to draw
> a line? I kind of feel like I have to draw a line or else I start
getting resentful.
> Is this resentfulness something that I just need to adjust my
attitude on or is
> it a sign that things need to come back into balance. And how do I
get them back into
> balance if that is the case. I just feel like my personality would
make it very easy
> to swing too far out of balance.
>
> I am looking for a local gym, rec center or y around
> here that would have a program for the kids so I can take a yoga
class and they can play
> and wear themselves out a bit. I am working on making connections
in the hs community
> so that Jason can go to friend's houses for playdates (I had a
great network made up of
> his friends but they are all in school during the day now). I am
also working on getting
> our living room set up with a tv and comfy couches etc thinking
that maybe if dh
> can watch his shows in the family room and Jason stays in the
living room then maybe
> that will take some of the pressure off. Any other ideas? Any ideas
> for tiring an active 6 yo out? Any ideas for helping hubby not take
this personally
> and realize that in 10 years this period of our lives will seem
much shorter and less
> important then it does now? Any ideas for eeking out some time to
get things done
> around the house (and please know that I am not expecting to keep
the house spotless,
> but the clutter gets awful and I start going crazy).
>
> I know that I just need to make that shift in my attitude, but I am
having a hard time
> doing it. I did it when he was little, but it is harder now that he
is 6...I honestly
> thought that the bedtime thing would be solved by now. I just feel
like I have screwed
> everything up somehow and turned it into a control issue without
even meaning to.
>
> Sorry for the frantic sound to this post...I am just feeling very
exhausted. I need
> to go to bed now...Kyle will probably be up in a few hours....
>
> Stephanie E.

Christina in GA

I have an 8yo that has always pretty much been self-regulated. Of course it was easier when I was a SAHM but now that I work and he does go to school right now he has to have a bedtime. Even when I was at home he had a usual bedtime and when we start to homeschool he will still have a bedtime as he'll have to get up with me to go to work.

Personally I feel you are stretching yourself too thin. You cannot be all things to all people. One thing that I've done for myself is to give myself a bedtime! I am not a morning person and I hate to get up for work, so I'm sure I'm in bed by 10:30 - 11 at the latest. Ds is put to bed between 9 & 10 pm most nights so I do have a little time to myself and some time with dh before he goes to work. He works nights and has to be up by 10:30 to get ready to leave.

If you don't want to make it seem like you are ordering him to go to bed at a certain I definitely agree on some exercise during the day. At some point even just going for a walk around the block for some fresh air may be just what he needs. My ds has an "Elmosize" video tape with some fun exercises on it. Maybe something like that would be good to do with your son so he can have some movement. But you are the parent, he is the child. There have to be some limits set somewhere just so you can get some peace and rest for yourself.

I hope you find some balance and get some sleep!

Christina in GA
Happiness comes through doors you
didn't even know you left open.

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephanie Elms
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:37 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Need help on finding the balance - this got long...


OK. I am trying to give up control. I really am. But I seem to be still fighting it. Most
the time I am ok with it, but I feel like there needs to be some balance and I am having
a hard time finding it. I keep second guessing myself...am I responding to his needs...
am I neglecting mine... how do I know?

The latest thing is bedtime. I have always had a love/hate thing with sleeping and Jason.
When he was about a year, I finally surrendered to my reality and started co-sleeping.
I would nurse/lay with him until he fell asleep. When he was 2, he went through a phase of
not falling asleep easily, so I let him stay up. Finally around 3 things seemed to
even out...he had given up his naps so he was easily falling asleep around 9. He
stayed in our room until he was 4 yrs old and then I would still lay down with him
to fall asleep. Last year we had progressed to where I could lay with him for a little
while and then leave. Then he started having problems falling asleep again, so I would
let him stay up in my craft room with me while I did my rubber stamping. He would tell
me when he was tired and fall asleep easily. The first couple of weeks he stayed up until
10 or 11. After that he would ask to go to sleep around 8:30 and 9. I felt vindicated! I had
always said that he would be able to self-regulate when given the choice.

Now it is a year later and things have changed. Part of it I am sure is because it is
cold out and we are not getting out as much. Part of it is that he no longer has to
get up at 8 am for preschool. Plus he is not getting as much activity now (in addition
to the activity at the preschool, we usually would play with his best friend (who
we car pooled with) after school for an hour or more). He is staying up until 11 (or
later). If I let him sleep until he wakes up, he sleeps until around 9.

The problem is this...I am feeling smothered. Jason is a very intense little boy.
I love him to death but he is an extrovert in the extreme sense of the word. If he
is awake, he wants interaction. He will play by himself (for short periods of time),
but never alone - he never goes into his own room to play alone. The worst feeling
in the world for him is to feel lonely. Most of his favorite activities include some
other person. He has never been the type to color at the table while I do the dishes...
he always wanted me to color *with* him. It has gotten a bit better now that Kyle is
getting older (will be 3 in Feb), takes some of the pressure off me. I am coming to
accept this part of his personality and trying to work with it...we invite friends
over often (still trying to make some hsing connections so we can find more friends
during the day).

Kyle has just given up his naps and is usually asleep by 9. And up by 7:30. Plus
something is going on and he has started nursing a lot at night (he starts out in
Jason's room and then I get him when he wakes up) so I have not been getting too
much sleep. So now I have been trying to get to bed around midnight...which if Jason
is not asleep until 11 or later does not leave much time for me to get anything done.
I do get out to rubber stamping clubs about 3 or 4 times a month. Getting up earlier
does not help because 7:30 is pretty early for me if I have been up a couple of times
a night and if I get up early, Kyle usually gets up early too.

I have been trying to talk with Jason about how mommy has needs to...that there are a lot
of boring things that I try to leave for when he is asleep. How mommy needs down time and likes
to have time alone with daddy or by herself. I think that what is getting to me lately is that
I see that he is getting tired, but he is really *trying* to stay awake. We have also
been talking about listening to your body and what it is trying to tell you. But he is fighting
it...it is turning into a control thing ( which I usually try to avoid). Since I have been
letting up on controlling him (we gave up tv and food controls about 2-3 months ago), control
seems to be more of an issue with him, if that makes any sense.

The other problem I have is dh. He does not agree with my approach at all and thinks that I
am being a doormat. He has absolutely no problem with expecting Jason to stay up in his
room after a certain time. He wants to have time to watch his tv shows, relax and spend time
with me. So I feel like I am trying to balance both dh's and Jason's needs and it is
not happening.

I am not dealing with this well and would appreciate all insight. Tonight I decided that since
dh is away until Friday, I would try a new approach. We watched a little tv while I nursed
Kyle to sleep. Jason then wanted to listen to the Wizard of Oz audio tape we got from the
library. I told him that I had some cleaning to do, but when he was tired to let me know
and I would go up and lay down with him (thinking that I could get some of my needs met
to get something done and still meet his needs of not being alone when he goes to sleep). He
said that he was tired around 10 but wanted to me to read to him. I said that it was
too late for that (I really was tired, but looking back on it, it would not have killed
me to read a chapter...I think that it was my way of still controlling the situation). We
went up and laid down. He ended up getting fidgety, getting up for water etc etc etc. I
ended up losing it. All I want is for him to go to sleep when he is tired!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/10/2002 11:39:09 PM Central Standard Time,
stephanie.elms@... writes:

> Any ideas for helping hubby not take this personally
> and realize that in 10 years this period of our lives will seem much
> shorter and less
> important then it does now?

How about asking him to participate in the going to bed routine? I know you
said he travels, but when he's home, he should be willing to take that over.
My husband travelled for 5 years and when he came home, I was off-duty for
night times. (It might seem unfair to him from the outside, but it's how it
was worked out between us.)

It sounds like you're doing it *all* (and you are when your husband isn't
home), and I think first you should raise expectations of your husband's
participation.

You have the right perspective about it being just a season in your life.
That will get you through a lot! Good luck!

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Stephanie,

I'm sorry you're feeling this way right now, <sad sigh>

I'm actually at a less busy time, my son went to Grandma and Grandpa's (both sets live in the same town), for a couple of weeks, his choice, I couldn't believe it.

For me too, like what Sheila said, my cycle has so much affect on how I feel and how I can tolerate others.

I've had to have several talks with my dh about how we both need down time, I think alot of times the working-outside-the-home person thinks that when they get home its all down time....well...with a family, sorry. So he has realized that down time is necessary but it also has to be found at certain times. It can't always be when he dictates it, others needs also play a big part.

That Living Joyfully with Children book has a chapter on 'taking care of Mom' that is great. She would send dad off to work and then the next hour of the day was always her hour. She would go into her room and do whatever she wanted. The kids knew it was her time and were instructed to only bother her if the house was on fire.

Well, I can see that happening better as the kids get older, but I am working on that. That hour could be sleeping, reading, exercising, working on the 'puter(as Shyrley says), whatever.

It is such a balancing act though isn't it?

Right now my puking one is asleep and my other dd is also asleep. Quiet.....ahhhhhh...

(Kelli) (I'm typing in a hushed voice)
Stephanie Elms <stephanie.elms@...> wrote:OK. I am trying to give up control. I really am. But I seem to be still fighting it. Most
the time I am ok with it, but I feel like there needs to be some balance and I am having
a hard time finding it. I keep second guessing myself...am I responding to his needs...
am I neglecting mine... how do I know?

The latest thing is bedtime. I have always had a love/hate thing with sleeping and Jason.
When he was about a year, I finally surrendered to my reality and started co-sleeping.
I would nurse/lay with him until he fell asleep. When he was 2, he went through a phase of
not falling asleep easily, so I let him stay up. Finally around 3 things seemed to
even out...he had given up his naps so he was easily falling asleep around 9. He
stayed in our room until he was 4 yrs old and then I would still lay down with him
to fall asleep. Last year we had progressed to where I could lay with him for a little
while and then leave. Then he started having problems falling asleep again, so I would
let him stay up in my craft room with me while I did my rubber stamping. He would tell
me when he was tired and fall asleep easily. The first couple of weeks he stayed up until
10 or 11. After that he would ask to go to sleep around 8:30 and 9. I felt vindicated! I had
always said that he would be able to self-regulate when given the choice.

Now it is a year later and things have changed. Part of it I am sure is because it is
cold out and we are not getting out as much. Part of it is that he no longer has to
get up at 8 am for preschool. Plus he is not getting as much activity now (in addition
to the activity at the preschool, we usually would play with his best friend (who
we car pooled with) after school for an hour or more). He is staying up until 11 (or
later). If I let him sleep until he wakes up, he sleeps until around 9.

The problem is this...I am feeling smothered. Jason is a very intense little boy.
I love him to death but he is an extrovert in the extreme sense of the word. If he
is awake, he wants interaction. He will play by himself (for short periods of time),
but never alone - he never goes into his own room to play alone. The worst feeling
in the world for him is to feel lonely. Most of his favorite activities include some
other person. He has never been the type to color at the table while I do the dishes...
he always wanted me to color *with* him. It has gotten a bit better now that Kyle is
getting older (will be 3 in Feb), takes some of the pressure off me. I am coming to
accept this part of his personality and trying to work with it...we invite friends
over often (still trying to make some hsing connections so we can find more friends
during the day).

Kyle has just given up his naps and is usually asleep by 9. And up by 7:30. Plus
something is going on and he has started nursing a lot at night (he starts out in
Jason's room and then I get him when he wakes up) so I have not been getting too
much sleep. So now I have been trying to get to bed around midnight...which if Jason
is not asleep until 11 or later does not leave much time for me to get anything done.
I do get out to rubber stamping clubs about 3 or 4 times a month. Getting up earlier
does not help because 7:30 is pretty early for me if I have been up a couple of times
a night and if I get up early, Kyle usually gets up early too.

I have been trying to talk with Jason about how mommy has needs to...that there are a lot
of boring things that I try to leave for when he is asleep. How mommy needs down time and likes
to have time alone with daddy or by herself. I think that what is getting to me lately is that
I see that he is getting tired, but he is really *trying* to stay awake. We have also
been talking about listening to your body and what it is trying to tell you. But he is fighting
it...it is turning into a control thing ( which I usually try to avoid). Since I have been
letting up on controlling him (we gave up tv and food controls about 2-3 months ago), control
seems to be more of an issue with him, if that makes any sense.

The other problem I have is dh. He does not agree with my approach at all and thinks that I
am being a doormat. He has absolutely no problem with expecting Jason to stay up in his
room after a certain time. He wants to have time to watch his tv shows, relax and spend time
with me. So I feel like I am trying to balance both dh's and Jason's needs and it is
not happening.

I am not dealing with this well and would appreciate all insight. Tonight I decided that since
dh is away until Friday, I would try a new approach. We watched a little tv while I nursed
Kyle to sleep. Jason then wanted to listen to the Wizard of Oz audio tape we got from the
library. I told him that I had some cleaning to do, but when he was tired to let me know
and I would go up and lay down with him (thinking that I could get some of my needs met
to get something done and still meet his needs of not being alone when he goes to sleep). He
said that he was tired around 10 but wanted to me to read to him. I said that it was
too late for that (I really was tired, but looking back on it, it would not have killed
me to read a chapter...I think that it was my way of still controlling the situation). We
went up and laid down. He ended up getting fidgety, getting up for water etc etc etc. I
ended up losing it. All I want is for him to go to sleep when he is tired!

This is not the way that I want to end the day. But I am really struggling with giving
up the control thing....I go back and forth between completely seeing his point of view
(it sucks to know that my two favorite people are downstairs while I am stuck up here
in this room) and completely feeling smothered and feeling like a couple of hours in
the evening to myself is not too much to ask. Having him stay up late makes me feel
very stressed for time...btween keeping up with the house, spending time with hubby,
keeping up with my e-lists (which often keep me sane) and trying to find time to
relax and read and now needing more sleep since Kyle is up so much, I am really going
crazy.

I really need a new perspective here...but I feel like the more that I give up control,
the more Jason pushes and pushes. How do I know when to draw the line? Is it ok to draw
a line? I kind of feel like I have to draw a line or else I start getting resentful.
Is this resentfulness something that I just need to adjust my attitude on or is
it a sign that things need to come back into balance. And how do I get them back into
balance if that is the case. I just feel like my personality would make it very easy
to swing too far out of balance.

I am looking for a local gym, rec center or y around
here that would have a program for the kids so I can take a yoga class and they can play
and wear themselves out a bit. I am working on making connections in the hs community
so that Jason can go to friend's houses for playdates (I had a great network made up of
his friends but they are all in school during the day now). I am also working on getting
our living room set up with a tv and comfy couches etc thinking that maybe if dh
can watch his shows in the family room and Jason stays in the living room then maybe
that will take some of the pressure off. Any other ideas? Any ideas
for tiring an active 6 yo out? Any ideas for helping hubby not take this personally
and realize that in 10 years this period of our lives will seem much shorter and less
important then it does now? Any ideas for eeking out some time to get things done
around the house (and please know that I am not expecting to keep the house spotless,
but the clutter gets awful and I start going crazy).

I know that I just need to make that shift in my attitude, but I am having a hard time
doing it. I did it when he was little, but it is harder now that he is 6...I honestly
thought that the bedtime thing would be solved by now. I just feel like I have screwed
everything up somehow and turned it into a control issue without even meaning to.

Sorry for the frantic sound to this post...I am just feeling very exhausted. I need
to go to bed now...Kyle will probably be up in a few hours....

Stephanie E.






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Renee Seawell

Hi Stephanie: I'm a homeschooling Mother of 4 precious children. I read your post this morning
and wanted to offer some encouragement if I could. My children are now 17, 15, 12 and 7. I
remember how hard it was when they were all little. I felt like I was never sleeping and every
minute awake was taken up. Looking back now, the time went so quickly. I know it's easier to see
looking back rather than looking ahead.

About 3 years ago I was working full time (at night) and homeschooling. I went and went and went
until I got really sick and had to quit working completely. As hard as this time has been, it has
made me realize that time is always passing and we have to decide what is most important to us and
be sure we make it happen. For me, that was spending time with my children now so that when they
were older, I would have the comfort of knowing that I gave them the best that I could. My
husband and I have had many discussions about it and God has blessed us with understanding for
each other (after MANY DISCUSSIONS.) I've been so sick these past few years that I couldn't even
drive and quess what? My 17 year old son has to drive me around. He never complains and I'm sure
he'd rather be doing something else a lot of the time. I think being in a family is a lot of give
and take. I give but now I'm having to take too.

On the other side of this coin, even though my children are older I still am "busy" with them. My
12 year old son has started wanting me to stay with him until he goes to sleep. I worried about
it at first and then I remembered being that way when I was about 12. I think our kids go through
so many stages and if we can find a way to get through them without worrying (easy to say, not
easy to do) then they pass quickly.

You sound like you are a wonderful Mother. Don't feel guilty about needing time to yourself. My
escape is cross stitching but many projects were a long time getting done when my children were
little. I would stitch for a few minutes and then have to stop for a few hours. But on the
positive side, I look at my children now and we have a wonderful relationship. My teenages have
been such a blessing. Not all of the worries that a lot of people have. I thank God that I
started homeschooling them all those years ago and I cherish each and every moment I have had with
them (even 2:00 am feedings). Blessings to you and please know that you are not alone.

Renee in GA

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Betsy

** He said that he was tired around 10 but wanted to me to read to him.
I said that it was too late for that (I really was tired, but looking
back on it, it would not have killed me to read a chapter...I think that
it was my way of still controlling the situation).**

Hi, Stephanie --

I'm sympathetic, but I don't have the answers. I get grumpy around ten
at night and don't want to be a short order cook if my son wants "second
dinner", dessert or "first breakfast". (TM the LOTR movie) I'm
reasonably cheerful about fixing what he wants, when he wants it the
rest of the day. (I only have one kid.)

I'm also huffy about starting bedtime stories at that hour. (Sometimes
DH will read them, figuring it's in his best interest to let me rest and
relax a little before he comes to bed.) I remind my son at 9pm if he
wants to watch a 1 hour TV show that I may not be available after the
show for bedtime reading.

So my approach is that I go "off duty" around 10pm. My son is eight and
a half now and can go to sleep without a story and without a parental
lie-down, although getting back up and continuing to talk to us happens
more if we skip the "routine".

My dh recently started a new job that requires earlier rising and I've
been aiming to turn the TV off at 9pm, so that my son is asleep ay 9:30
instead of 10:30. However, I've had a tough time following my own rule
and foregoing the 9pm TV shows, or taping them. So I'm even sympathetic
to your husband.

I have found, in my small family in a small house, that the TV and
computer games need to be shut off before anyone is going to go to bed
willingly. Then, sometimes, they go back on afterwards.

When my DH was a child, as the youngest, he was sent to bed at 8pm,
while the rest of the family watched TV at a blaring volume that
prevented sleeping. It isn't always easy for him to sacrifice his
hard-won adult privileges so that we can treat our son more sympathetically.

I know "wanting time with dad" is a major reason for schooled kids to
stay up late. You may need to make sure that that need is being met.

Betsy

(Disclaimer: As Charles Barkley said "I am not a role model". I'm sure
there are people succeeding with a nicer approach. Use them for role
models :-)

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/02 5:42:42 AM, clr71@... writes:

<< But you are the parent, he is the child. There have to be some limits set
somewhere just so you can get some peace and rest for yourself. >>

Millions of people would agree with you without batting an eye.

If all of us agreed too, all our work to find alternative means of parenting
might just fold back into the mainstream background.

The problems of a child having to get up for school are not within the
purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion. We all know about having
to get up to go to school. Mine was 6:30, usually dark, to the bus stop by
7:35. I was in trouble if I read in the bed after 10:00.

If school is being used as daycare because the mom has to work, why can't the
child go in sleepy?
If the goals of school are important to the mom, that's not an unschooling
issue.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

You'll get there.



The only thing I can contribute, being in a family that is struggling
with different bedtime/sleep amount needs and only one bed, is about
your youngest breastfeeding. I would bet that he is feeling the change
in the routine and emotional level in the home and seeking more comfort
and reassurance from you. Perhaps he is even trying to give it to you -
at least you have to stop and lay down to nurse him. Or he could be
having a growth spurt and wants the extra nutrition.



When I found I was not getting supported by my husband in my need for a
break (and I only have one little girl), I told him that when coming to
the end of my rope and feeling overwhelmed, then I would need help from
him. He was the one who then came up with the idea of taking Jayn to the
park for a couple of hours. Perhaps if you express your feelings and
needs to your husband, he will come up with a solution for helping you.



Robyn Coburn



<<Kyle has just given up his naps and is usually asleep by 9. And up by
7:30. Plus something is going on and he has started nursing a lot at
night (he starts out in Jason's room and then I get him when he wakes
up) so I have not been getting too much sleep.>>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/11/02 5:42:42 AM, clr71@c... writes:
>
> << But you are the parent, he is the child. There have to be some
limits set
> somewhere just so you can get some peace and rest for yourself. >>
>
> Millions of people would agree with you without batting an eye.
>
> If all of us agreed too, all our work to find alternative means of
parenting
> might just fold back into the mainstream background.

But, there have to be some limits sometime, if for nothing else to
respect the mom's needs. So that when it's midnight and mom is so
incredibly physically and mentally tired that she can't think clearly
enough to play a game. And if the child is saying that he can't go
to sleep without mom laying with him first, that mom says, "If you
want me to lay with you, it has to be by 11 pm because after that
point I'll be too tired. Because one child might want to be up until
2 am but another child might want mom to get up at 7 am.

Sheila

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Stephanie Elms"
<stephanie.elms@d...> wrote:
> OK. I am trying to give up control. I really am. But I seem to be
still fighting it. Most
> the time I am ok with it, but I feel like there needs to be some
balance and I am having
> a hard time finding it. I keep second guessing myself...am I
responding to his needs...
> am I neglecting mine... how do I know?


Maybe you're confusing control (of your child) with setting
reasonable limits (for yourself). It is not controlling your child to
say "I'm going to be available for 15 minutes to help you get to
sleep, and then I'm going to go and read my book (or work on crafts,
or whatever). There are ways that you can set limits for yourself
without attempting to place control over others.

My kids are 3 and 6, and they're both extroverted chatterboxes, so I
sympathize with the need to have some downtime. Is there a way that
your husband can pitch in and give you that time, maybe not at a time
when the kids are already tired? It's a requirement for me that I get
two hours to myself a day, and DH usually has the kids at that time.
I don't think that's too much to ask out of 24 hours (as I'm the one
who still nurses my littlest in the middle of the night, and helps
with nighttime potty stuff, I'm "on duty" for 22 hours a day.)
Usually, I take "my time" when DH comes home from work, and I use
that time to exercise. Sometimes I take the time in the morning,
before DH leaves for work, it just depends on the schedule of the
day. On weekends or days that DH has off, I usually take a bit more
time for myself. I think this is an important time for DH to be with
the kids exclusively, and for me to recharge my batteries and keep
myself feeling good. When DH can't be with the kids, I use the
daycare at the gym, or I trade playdate/babysitting time with other
HS moms.

How bedtime works here is that we start our bedtime routine at around
7:30 or so. We get a snack, get teeth brushed and get into pajamas.
Then I read to the kids. This is something they really look forward
to, so getting through the teeth brushing and pajamas usually goes
quickly. I read a couple of picture books, and then a chapter of
whatever book we're on (currently Lord of the Rings), and then we
head to the kids' bedroom. I lay down and nurse my daughter (the
youngest) to sleep, and my son lays on his bed and quietly looks at
books. Alternatively, if he's not feeling sleepy, he can go down to
the living room and play during this time. After that, he and I have
a little time together where we talk about our day and whatever else
comes up, then if he's tired I will lay down with him to go to sleep.
After that, I get up and go about my own business. If he hasn't
fallen asleep or isn't sleepy, he's free to play quietly and get
himself to sleep. He usually doesn't want to do that, so the time I
lay down with him is when he goes to sleep. Both of my kids are awake
by 7:00 am, so I rarely have time to myself in the morning.

I'd suggest coming up with some routine that works well for you. A
time in the evening when you start that routine helps get everyone's
body ready for bed. If you can get your "me time" in at another time
of the day, then you won't feel frantic about making sure the kids go
right to sleep and you can enjoy the evening time with them without
feeling cheated. I think many parents tie their "me time" to bedtime,
and that makes for a lot of conflict and anxiety. Also, if you have a
routine, then the kids know what to expect, and when to expect it. In
our case, they can expect me to read them stories when they're
dressed and ready for bed, and then when I'm done reading stories I
don't really go back and read more (I get too tired, for one thing,
and tend to doze off while I'm reading!).

> I really need a new perspective here...but I feel like the more
that I give up control,
> the more Jason pushes and pushes. How do I know when to draw the
line? Is it ok to draw
> a line?


I think kids will definitely push until they find a place where you
feel confident. If you don't feel confident of what you're doing,
he's going to keep pushing and pushing. I think it's definitely okay
to draw lines *for yourself* with your own limits, and stick to them.
Not controlling children doesn't mean you have to disrespect
yourself.


> Any ideas
> for tiring an active 6 yo out?

I think your idea of finding a Y or rec center is a good one. Our
local HS group has a reserved time at a gymnastics center once a
week. Also a playdate at a local pizza parlor with a kid-play area,
playdates at friend's houses, and other opportunities for indoor
energy-spending during the winter. I make a point to take the kids
swimming 2 or 3 days a week, and on any day when it's not raining, we
are either out walking or biking.

One thing my DH does that the kids really love is that he
has "Wrestle time" with them, usually about an hour before we start
our bedtime routine. He takes them up to our bed and they jump
around, pile on him, he throws them on the bed, they pillow fight,
etc. This is a great way to get out big energy and get the kids ready
to wind down. He usually does this for at least a half and hour,
sometimes up to an hour or more. It's also a great way for him to
connect with them. My dad used to do this with us, and we loved it.


> Any ideas for helping hubby not take this personally
> and realize that in 10 years this period of our lives will seem
much shorter and less
> important then it does now?

Maybe you could try brainstorming with him ways in which you can
solve the problem? I don't think it's unrealistic of a couple to want
to spend some time together without the kids around. You'll need to
find ways to get that time, whether it's swapping childcare with
other couples you trust, or finding a nighttime routine that works
for all of you, or whatever. It's not realistic for him to expect
that things will work perfectly every single night. Also not
realistic to expect you to bear the whole burden of the nighttime
routine, and finding time to yourself. My DH knows that the more time
he gives me on my own, the more my nighttime hours belong to him ;-),
because I have my own needs. Maybe your DH can take charge of
teethbrushing, story-reading, etc. so that you have some evening time
to do your own thing, then you can get the kids to bed and afterwards
you'll have couple time? Or however it will work for you. Everyone
has to pitch in, it can't all fall on you.

> Any ideas for eeking out some time to get things done
> around the house (and please know that I am not expecting to keep
the house spotless,
> but the clutter gets awful and I start going crazy).

Develop cleaning routines during the day and just do them. Get the
kids to pitch in, or let them play on their own, but just do them. It
doesn't take real long to keep a house clean if you break it down. I
have a simple cleaning chart that we follow. Every day after
breakfast, I clean up the kitchen while the kids are still eating,
then they go and play or else they help me out while I do whatever
the task is that day. It might be vacuuming one floor, or cleaning
one bathroom, or whatever. None of the tasks take real long because
we do them every week. The living room gets picked up every night
before we go to bed, so that's taken care of as well. The laundry is
the only thing that tends to pile up, but I can usually get the kids
playing "sock fight" while I fold clothes. Or sometimes it just piles
up. One thing that helps is to have a place for things, and just make
sure they go there. Again, routines. Like we have a shoe rack, and
when we come in we take off our shoes and they go to the shoe rack.
We have a coat rack where the coats get hung up. I love those
tupperware-type bins with lids with handles that the kids can put
their toys in. They can carry a bin with all the superheros, or
horses, or whatever, and when they're done it's easy to pick them all
up and put them back in the bin.

Good luck with all of this. Remember (as FlyLady says) it's all about
baby steps. Don't expect everything to be solved overnight, or
everything to ever go perfectly. Do what you can, don't sweat the
rest, try to get everyone else to pitch in so you don't bear the
whole burden on your back.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

I very much disagree with the idea that children will "push and push."

Two quotes and then comment:

<< > I really need a new perspective here...but I feel like the more
that I give up control,
> the more Jason pushes and pushes. How do I know when to draw the
line? Is it ok to draw
> a line?

-=-I think kids will definitely push until they find a place where you
feel confident. If you don't feel confident of what you're doing,
he's going to keep pushing and pushing. >>

Pushing WHERE?

If a parent relaxes and acknowledges a child's need, there will be nothing to
push for and nothing to push against.

If a parent "relaxes," but still has the hope that the child will pretend the
rule is still there, and somehow come up with his own bedtime and routine,
the parent still has an unrealistic picture of what's natural.

"Relaxing" a rule isn't enough.

Working from principles instead of rules is what will make the difference.

Sandra

Kelli Traaseth

**Maybe you're confusing control (of your child) with setting
reasonable limits (for yourself). **



Thank you Robin for this, it is a great point!



Kelli





"the_clevengers <diamondair@...>" <diamondair@...> wrote:--- In [email protected], "Stephanie Elms"
<stephanie.elms@d...> wrote:
> OK. I am trying to give up control. I really am. But I seem to be
still fighting it. Most
> the time I am ok with it, but I feel like there needs to be some
balance and I am having
> a hard time finding it. I keep second guessing myself...am I
responding to his needs...
> am I neglecting mine... how do I know?


Maybe you're confusing control (of your child) with setting
reasonable limits (for yourself). It is not controlling your child to
say "I'm going to be available for 15 minutes to help you get to
sleep, and then I'm going to go and read my book (or work on crafts,
or whatever). There are ways that you can set limits for yourself
without attempting to place control over others.

My kids are 3 and 6, and they're both extroverted chatterboxes, so I
sympathize with the need to have some downtime. Is there a way that
your husband can pitch in and give you that time, maybe not at a time
when the kids are already tired? It's a requirement for me that I get
two hours to myself a day, and DH usually has the kids at that time.
I don't think that's too much to ask out of 24 hours (as I'm the one
who still nurses my littlest in the middle of the night, and helps
with nighttime potty stuff, I'm "on duty" for 22 hours a day.)
Usually, I take "my time" when DH comes home from work, and I use
that time to exercise. Sometimes I take the time in the morning,
before DH leaves for work, it just depends on the schedule of the
day. On weekends or days that DH has off, I usually take a bit more
time for myself. I think this is an important time for DH to be with
the kids exclusively, and for me to recharge my batteries and keep
myself feeling good. When DH can't be with the kids, I use the
daycare at the gym, or I trade playdate/babysitting time with other
HS moms.

How bedtime works here is that we start our bedtime routine at around
7:30 or so. We get a snack, get teeth brushed and get into pajamas.
Then I read to the kids. This is something they really look forward
to, so getting through the teeth brushing and pajamas usually goes
quickly. I read a couple of picture books, and then a chapter of
whatever book we're on (currently Lord of the Rings), and then we
head to the kids' bedroom. I lay down and nurse my daughter (the
youngest) to sleep, and my son lays on his bed and quietly looks at
books. Alternatively, if he's not feeling sleepy, he can go down to
the living room and play during this time. After that, he and I have
a little time together where we talk about our day and whatever else
comes up, then if he's tired I will lay down with him to go to sleep.
After that, I get up and go about my own business. If he hasn't
fallen asleep or isn't sleepy, he's free to play quietly and get
himself to sleep. He usually doesn't want to do that, so the time I
lay down with him is when he goes to sleep. Both of my kids are awake
by 7:00 am, so I rarely have time to myself in the morning.

I'd suggest coming up with some routine that works well for you. A
time in the evening when you start that routine helps get everyone's
body ready for bed. If you can get your "me time" in at another time
of the day, then you won't feel frantic about making sure the kids go
right to sleep and you can enjoy the evening time with them without
feeling cheated. I think many parents tie their "me time" to bedtime,
and that makes for a lot of conflict and anxiety. Also, if you have a
routine, then the kids know what to expect, and when to expect it. In
our case, they can expect me to read them stories when they're
dressed and ready for bed, and then when I'm done reading stories I
don't really go back and read more (I get too tired, for one thing,
and tend to doze off while I'm reading!).

> I really need a new perspective here...but I feel like the more
that I give up control,
> the more Jason pushes and pushes. How do I know when to draw the
line? Is it ok to draw
> a line?


I think kids will definitely push until they find a place where you
feel confident. If you don't feel confident of what you're doing,
he's going to keep pushing and pushing. I think it's definitely okay
to draw lines *for yourself* with your own limits, and stick to them.
Not controlling children doesn't mean you have to disrespect
yourself.


> Any ideas
> for tiring an active 6 yo out?

I think your idea of finding a Y or rec center is a good one. Our
local HS group has a reserved time at a gymnastics center once a
week. Also a playdate at a local pizza parlor with a kid-play area,
playdates at friend's houses, and other opportunities for indoor
energy-spending during the winter. I make a point to take the kids
swimming 2 or 3 days a week, and on any day when it's not raining, we
are either out walking or biking.

One thing my DH does that the kids really love is that he
has "Wrestle time" with them, usually about an hour before we start
our bedtime routine. He takes them up to our bed and they jump
around, pile on him, he throws them on the bed, they pillow fight,
etc. This is a great way to get out big energy and get the kids ready
to wind down. He usually does this for at least a half and hour,
sometimes up to an hour or more. It's also a great way for him to
connect with them. My dad used to do this with us, and we loved it.


> Any ideas for helping hubby not take this personally
> and realize that in 10 years this period of our lives will seem
much shorter and less
> important then it does now?

Maybe you could try brainstorming with him ways in which you can
solve the problem? I don't think it's unrealistic of a couple to want
to spend some time together without the kids around. You'll need to
find ways to get that time, whether it's swapping childcare with
other couples you trust, or finding a nighttime routine that works
for all of you, or whatever. It's not realistic for him to expect
that things will work perfectly every single night. Also not
realistic to expect you to bear the whole burden of the nighttime
routine, and finding time to yourself. My DH knows that the more time
he gives me on my own, the more my nighttime hours belong to him ;-),
because I have my own needs. Maybe your DH can take charge of
teethbrushing, story-reading, etc. so that you have some evening time
to do your own thing, then you can get the kids to bed and afterwards
you'll have couple time? Or however it will work for you. Everyone
has to pitch in, it can't all fall on you.

> Any ideas for eeking out some time to get things done
> around the house (and please know that I am not expecting to keep
the house spotless,
> but the clutter gets awful and I start going crazy).

Develop cleaning routines during the day and just do them. Get the
kids to pitch in, or let them play on their own, but just do them. It
doesn't take real long to keep a house clean if you break it down. I
have a simple cleaning chart that we follow. Every day after
breakfast, I clean up the kitchen while the kids are still eating,
then they go and play or else they help me out while I do whatever
the task is that day. It might be vacuuming one floor, or cleaning
one bathroom, or whatever. None of the tasks take real long because
we do them every week. The living room gets picked up every night
before we go to bed, so that's taken care of as well. The laundry is
the only thing that tends to pile up, but I can usually get the kids
playing "sock fight" while I fold clothes. Or sometimes it just piles
up. One thing that helps is to have a place for things, and just make
sure they go there. Again, routines. Like we have a shoe rack, and
when we come in we take off our shoes and they go to the shoe rack.
We have a coat rack where the coats get hung up. I love those
tupperware-type bins with lids with handles that the kids can put
their toys in. They can carry a bin with all the superheros, or
horses, or whatever, and when they're done it's easy to pick them all
up and put them back in the bin.

Good luck with all of this. Remember (as FlyLady says) it's all about
baby steps. Don't expect everything to be solved overnight, or
everything to ever go perfectly. Do what you can, don't sweat the
rest, try to get everyone else to pitch in so you don't bear the
whole burden on your back.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/2002 12:54:51 PM Central Standard Time,
diamondair@... writes:

> lay down and nurse my daughter (the
> youngest) to sleep, and my son lays on his bed and quietly looks at
> books.

For those of you who don't sleep with their kids...When my now-adult children
were young, they both slept in the same room, and the other bedroom was the
toy room. They slept together (both boys) until they were too big to fit
into a single bed together. It wasn't part of my family tradition for
children to sleep with parents, and so I didn't do it, then. And as a single
mother, I really needed some boundary somewhere. Thankfully, those two were
capable of falling asleep at the drop of a hat.

My youngest is a different story, though. He sleeps with us, but now at 9,
it's only an on-and-off kind of thing. It depends completely on his stage of
development, what he happens to be processing, etc. If he's in a
happy-go-lucky stage, he'll go to sleep with a kiss and a hug, but if he's
"imagining what it would be like to be kidnapped" (like he was last night)
then someone's going to have to sleep with him. [He said he cried a long
time in the middle of the night imagining that scenario, and Dad, snoring on
the bottom bunk, wouldn't wake up. :( ]

One thing I've noticed about some folks who complain about their kids' sleepy
time problems--the house is completely lit up, the TV is blasting, someone's
banging around in the kitchen, or whatever. Light is what helps us determine
our sleeping patterns...if you want your 2 yo to get sleepy, turn down the
lights! Putting the house to bed, that's what I used to call it.

Tuck



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> -=-I think kids will definitely push until they find a place where
you
> feel confident. If you don't feel confident of what you're doing,
> he's going to keep pushing and pushing. >>
>
> Pushing WHERE?


Push your limits. If you have no limits, they definitely have nothing
to push against. So in this case, if a parent has no limits whatsover
to do with bedtime - the parent will read them endless stories or lay
down with them until they're asleep, whether that be 8:00 or 2:00 in
the morning, the parent will make them a 3-egg omelette at midnight
if that's what they desire, then I guess the child can do whatever
they want. But if the parent sets a limit, like "I won't read stories
after 10:30" or "You can get your own snacks from the refrigerator
after dinner time, but I won't be cooking" and they don't feel like
they have a right to set a limit, or they don't feel confident in
that limit, the child might push against it for awhile until they
realize that it's firm.


> If a parent relaxes and acknowledges a child's need, there will be
nothing to
> push for and nothing to push against.

I would agree with that for "needs". If a child is scared and needs
to be comforted, I would definitely fulfill that need. If a child
wants me to read another story at midnight when I'm on the verge of
falling asleep, I think that falls more into the "want" than "need"
category, and I don't believe in fulfilling every single thing my
child wants, especially when it conflicts with a basic need of mine
(like for sleep). My kids are always welcome to be around me,
whatever time of day, but they have to respect my body as well. If my
body is sleeping, they may not jump on it, for instance, and I will
not be reading stories past the time when I go to sleep. They could
jump on me during wrestling hour, and they're welcome to curl up
against me during the sleeping time, but my limit is no jumping when
I'm sleeping. I feel pretty comfortable setting my own personal
limits, and the kids usually respect them. I think it also helps them
set limits when they are around other people.

> If a parent "relaxes," but still has the hope that the child will
pretend the
> rule is still there, and somehow come up with his own bedtime and
routine,
> the parent still has an unrealistic picture of what's natural.
>
> "Relaxing" a rule isn't enough.
>
> Working from principles instead of rules is what will make the
difference.

I guess I see a difference in setting a rule and a personal limit. I
would see a rule as "Your bedtime is 8:00, no matter what. You have
to stay in your bed after that time." Whereas a personal limit might
be: "I need to be asleep by 11:00. You're welcome to stay up, but you
will need to be quiet since other people in the house are sleeping.
You can read or play quietly downstairs, or you can cuddle up in our
bed, as long as you don't disturb the people who are sleeping there.
If you want me to read to you, I will do so before 10:30, when I'm
going to start getting ready for bed."

I agree that it is easy to pretend you have no rules, yet still have
them in your head, and expect kids to somehow come up with ways to
comform to them.

The only rules we have in this family are for safety, and those are
never relaxed. Everything else runs from people trying to respect
each other. If I didn't have respect for myself, and turned myself
into a servant to my children's whims, I don't think that would serve
anything. My children are also not servants to my whims. We each have
limits, and try to respect them (at least that's what I hope they are
learning).

Blue Skies,

-Robin-

Christina in GA

Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but are you saying that this list is only for stay at home parents?

Christina in GA
Happiness comes through doors you
didn't even know you left open.

----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Need help on finding the balance - this got long...



In a message dated 12/11/02 5:42:42 AM, clr71@... writes:

<< But you are the parent, he is the child. There have to be some limits set
somewhere just so you can get some peace and rest for yourself. >>

Millions of people would agree with you without batting an eye.

If all of us agreed too, all our work to find alternative means of parenting
might just fold back into the mainstream background.

The problems of a child having to get up for school are not within the
purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion. We all know about having
to get up to go to school. Mine was 6:30, usually dark, to the bus stop by
7:35. I was in trouble if I read in the bed after 10:00.

If school is being used as daycare because the mom has to work, why can't the
child go in sleepy?
If the goals of school are important to the mom, that's not an unschooling
issue.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/02 7:46:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
diamondair@... writes:
< SNIPPED>
I guess I see a difference in setting a rule and a personal limit. I
would see a rule as "Your bedtime is 8:00, no matter what. You have
to stay in your bed after that time." Whereas a personal limit might
be: "I need to be asleep by 11:00. You're welcome to stay up, but you
will need to be quiet since other people in the house are sleeping.
You can read or play quietly downstairs, or you can cuddle up in our
bed, as long as you don't disturb the people who are sleeping there.
If you want me to read to you, I will do so before 10:30, when I'm
going to start getting ready for bed."



> The only rules we have in this family are for safety, and those are
> never relaxed. Everything else runs from people trying to respect
> each other. If I didn't have respect for myself, and turned myself
> into a servant to my children's whims, I don't think that would serve
> anything. My children are also not servants to my whims. We each have
> limits, and try to respect them (at least that's what I hope they are
> learning).
>

Robin, that was wonderfully put. I agree 100%. I dont see my limitations on
my childrens as rules, rather ways manage our household effectively. They
don't serve ME, but they are part of this family and they know that we each
do our part in managing our home. We all have to contribute.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/02 5:46:28 PM, diamondair@... writes:

<< So in this case, if a parent has no limits whatsover
to do with bedtime - the parent will read them endless stories or lay
down with them until they're asleep, whether that be 8:00 or 2:00 in
the morning, the parent will make them a 3-egg omelette at midnight
if that's what they desire, >>

My kids can go to sleep when they want to and eat anything they want to. But
I can only read until I'm too sleepy and they've always known that. There
are cassette tapes, CDs, and video tapes.

My children have never asked for a three egg omelette at midnight. Never.
If one did and I was still awake, I might make one! You know why? Because
I would very much like for them to be willing to do that for me if I really
needed one and was unable to make one. Or for their spouse if she were
pregnant or just hungry. Or for my grandchildren.

<<But if the parent sets a limit. . .and they don't feel like
they have a right to set a limit, or they don't feel confident in
that limit, the child might push against it for awhile until they
realize that it's firm. >>

I knew what you meant. I'm seriously wondering whether you're just being
hypothetical or parotting what you've heard others say before. Because in
practice, in homes where the children have freedoms we're discussing, I
haven't seen the problems you're assuring us exist.

<<I don't believe in fulfilling every single thing my child wants>>

I don't think anyone has recommended or claimed that. They're recommending
against arbitrary rules and against the idea that parents have rights and
needs, but kids just have wants and limits-pushing.

<<If I didn't have respect for myself, and turned myself
into a servant to my children's whims, I don't think that would serve
anything. My children are also not servants to my whims. We each have
limits, and try to respect them>>

In your head you have an idea that people are on the brink of becoming one
another's servants?

It never occurs to me that there is any servitude.

I see myself as my child's mentor, partner, and guide. We're on the same
team. They can't push as though I were an opponent and they were trying to
gain yardage. It doesn't work that way.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/02 7:05:08 PM, clr71@... writes:

<< Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but are you saying that this list is
only for stay at home parents? >>

You said the child has to go to sleep early so he can get up and go to
school, didn't you?

<< The problems of a child having to get up for school are not within the
purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion. >>
<< If school is being used as daycare because the mom has to work, why can't
the
child go in sleepy?>>

Sandra

Christina in GA

Yes, he is in bed on a school night between 9pm & 10pm. Tonight we were playing a computer game, so he just went to bed now at 10:30. Weekends he stays up as late as he wants and sometimes falls asleep watching TV. When he is no longer in school he will still have to come to work with me, so on a "work night" bedtime will be different than on an not-work night.

What you said was

<<The problems of a child having to get up for school are not within the
purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion.>>

So, is this list for stay at home parents?

Christina in GA
Happiness comes through doors you
didn't even know you left open.

----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Need help on finding the balance - this got long...



In a message dated 12/11/02 7:05:08 PM, clr71@... writes:

<< Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but are you saying that this list is
only for stay at home parents? >>

You said the child has to go to sleep early so he can get up and go to
school, didn't you?

<< The problems of a child having to get up for school are not within the
purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion. >>
<< If school is being used as daycare because the mom has to work, why can't
the
child go in sleepy?>>

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephanie Elms

Hi everyone...thanks so much for all the input. I have read all your messages and plan to
re-read them and hopefully respond to some of them if I can find the time.

Yes, I have my period :o) but I had been planning on posting about this for a little
while now. Last night was just worse then it had been and I came in and ripped my
post out before I had the chance to talk myself out of posting. Then this morning
at 5 am I found out why last night was so bad when Jason woke up, told me he
felt sick and proceeded to throw up. Yet another reason for me to trust him...he
kept telling me that something was bothering him but he didn't know what. sigh.
So I am working on about 5 hrs of sleep and need to head to bed early...Jason
fell asleep tonight on the couch next to me after I read him some more from The Emerald
City of Oz...after taking a 3 hr nap this afternoon, poor little guy.

Also to clear something up as well. Last night was not a normal night...
this is the first time that Jeff has traveled in probably about a year or so (although
he does go out in the evenings from time to time as do I). And he has been pretty involved
in the boys bedtime routines...used to be that I would nurse Kyle and Jeff would
take Jason upstairs, get him changed, brush teeth and read a bit. Then I would
bring up Kyle, get him changed and then Jeff would take Kyle and rock/walk
him to sleep. I would read with Jason and lie with him until he
went to sleep (or he would stay up in the craft room). Then as Kyle got older, he
started wanting to go upstairs with Daddy and Jason for some wrestle time and then
wanting to be nursed to sleep by mommy. Jeff stays upstairs and reads or plays
some more with Jason until Kyle is asleep and then I get some reading and cuddle
time with Jason. The only part really where I am on my own is on how we handle
it if Jason is not ready to fall asleep after we finish reading. Jeff would love
to make the call on that one and just make him stay in his room. I am the one looking
to find other options. What is frustrating to me is that we had something that was
working beautifully that now is not working. Jeff thinks that Jason is having more
problems going to sleep now because of all the candy/sugar/soda he is eating since
we have stopped restricting junk food. I think that may be partially to blame (and
hopefully will improve once we get through the binge period) but also that he
just is not as active as he was during the summer.

One good thing is that Jason and I got lots of cuddle time today. I apologized for losing
it with him last night and we had a good talk about that. I also told him that it was
unfair of me to tell him that he had to come up with a bedtime plan that worked for both
of us (I was frustrated because I had tried to come up with a compromise that did not work).
I told him once he was feeling better that we would sit down together and look at what
each of us needs in the evening and see if we could come up with a plan that works
for both of us. Hopefully between the two of us we can come up with something.

Well, I really gotta get some sleep so I am coherent tomorrow...ironic thing is that Kyle
actually did not wake up last night until Jason starting throwing up at 5...one of these
days I will get both boys in synch and have a decent nights sleep!

Thanks again...I have lots of food for thought and ideas to ponder. I am sure that I will
come back later with even more questions. My ILs are coming down tomorrow (this is a good
thing - they are absolutely wonderful and really understand Jason) so I don't know how
much computer time I will have. Plus our routines always get messed up while they are
here so who knows what bedtime will be like when they leave LOL!

Stephanie E.

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/11/02 8:35:56 PM, clr71@... writes:

<< <<The problems of a child having to get up for school are not within the
purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion.>>

-=-So, is this list for stay at home parents?-=-

Are you suggesting that all working parents must put their children in school
but that they can still be unschoolers? My comment was about a child being
in school, not about whether parents worked outside the home.

What this list is for is on the main page at yahoogroups:

Description Category: Home Schooling
Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn what they
need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling parent is a
facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning with curiosity and
enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the what, when, where and
how of their learning -- from mud puddles to Shakespeare to Spongebob
Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or you'd like to find out more
about how video games and life in general are filled with learning, come join
us!

As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling is
*not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis. Everyone with an interest in
unschooling is welcome to join this discussion, but we ask that you keep in
mind the purpose of this list, which is to discuss unschooling in ways
designed to help each other become unschoolers or become better at
unschooling. We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a
"feel" for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations. If you have questions
about this list please feel free to contact list moderator Joyce Fetteroll (
fetteroll@...)

This list and the Unschooling.com site were created and are still supported
by Home Education Magazine: (http://www.home-ed-magazine.com); Helen Hegener (
HEM-Editor@...) is the list owner

-------------------

Sandra

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/11/02 5:46:28 PM, diamondair@e... writes:
>
> << So in this case, if a parent has no limits whatsover
> to do with bedtime - the parent will read them endless stories or
lay
> down with them until they're asleep, whether that be 8:00 or 2:00
in
> the morning, the parent will make them a 3-egg omelette at midnight
> if that's what they desire, >>
>
> My kids can go to sleep when they want to and eat anything they
want to. But
> I can only read until I'm too sleepy and they've always known
that. There
> are cassette tapes, CDs, and video tapes.
>
> My children have never asked for a three egg omelette at
midnight. Never.

My kids have asked me to make them stuff like that at midnight. They
have asked me to read them stories when I was too tired to read them
and they have cried when I said I couldn't. Or I didn't want them to
cry so I read them even though I could barely stay awake. Those are
the times when I feel like giving up on unschooling.


Because in
> practice, in homes where the children have freedoms we're
discussing, I
> haven't seen the problems you're assuring us exist.

I started out unschooling thinking that the right way to do it is to
always do whatever my kids want, whenever they want it. I started
being pulled in 3 different directions at the same time. When I told
my kids I wasn't going to make them go to bed any more, that they
could go when they feel tired, I thought that meant that I had to
stay up until the last child decided to go to bed, and then get up
when the first child decided he wanted to get up. Because they all
want me to stay up with them. Then I made them whatever food they
asked for whenever they wanted it, cleaned up after them because
everyone said they don't make their kids clean up if they don't want
to, played games and toys with whatever one wanted it, often playing
a game with someone with someone else crying that I wasn't playing
with him. Still, sometimes they have like 10 games lined up. "When
you're done with his, then can you play this with me". "No, she said
she'd play with me next". "But that's not fair because your game
takes longer than mine". Or sometimes they will want to play the
same game with me, but they want me to themselves, and want to each
have a turn playing the SAME game with me, individually. So I will
play Lego Creator 3 times in a row, once with each child, and then
they will each be ready with a different game. Or want something to
eat. Or one will want a game and another will want something to
eat. It can be VERY frustrating.


> <<If I didn't have respect for myself, and turned myself
> into a servant to my children's whims, I don't think that would
serve
> anything. My children are also not servants to my whims. We each
have
> limits, and try to respect them>>
>
> In your head you have an idea that people are on the brink of
becoming one
> another's servants?
>
> It never occurs to me that there is any servitude.
>
> I see myself as my child's mentor, partner, and guide. We're on
the same
> team. They can't push as though I were an opponent and they were
trying to
> gain yardage. It doesn't work that way.
>
> Sandra

I don't ever feel that my kids are pushing as an opponent, but that
they're pushing me to be more than a human being can be. That
they're pushing me to the point of wearing myself out.

I'm struggling with learning how to set my own personal limits and
knowing when it's ok to put my foot down and say no.

Sheila

kayb85 <[email protected]>

The list is for unschoolers. Does your son have the choice of
whether or not he wants to go to school or not? Could he quit
whenever he wants? Could he decide to never do homework again or to
turn the rest of his tests in blank?
Sheila

--- In [email protected], "Christina in GA"
<clr71@c...> wrote:
> Yes, he is in bed on a school night between 9pm & 10pm. Tonight we
were playing a computer game, so he just went to bed now at 10:30.
Weekends he stays up as late as he wants and sometimes falls asleep
watching TV. When he is no longer in school he will still have to
come to work with me, so on a "work night" bedtime will be different
than on an not-work night.

> What you said was
>
> <<The problems of a child having to get up for school are not
within the
> purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion.>>
>
> So, is this list for stay at home parents?
>
> Christina in GA
> Happiness comes through doors you
> didn't even know you left open.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: SandraDodd@a...
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Need help on finding the
balance - this got long...
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/11/02 7:05:08 PM, clr71@c... writes:
>
> << Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but are you saying that this
list is
> only for stay at home parents? >>
>
> You said the child has to go to sleep early so he can get up and
go to
> school, didn't you?
>
> << The problems of a child having to get up for school are not
within the
> purview of this list's discussion, in my opinion. >>
> << If school is being used as daycare because the mom has to
work, why can't
> the
> child go in sleepy?>>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christina in GA

So since I'm not unschooling at this moment I'm not welcome here? I was enjoying this list but I guess I'll find another outlet for discussion.

Christina in GA
Happiness comes through doors you
didn't even know you left open.

----- Original Message -----
From: kayb85 <sheran@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 11:14 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Need help on finding the balance - this got long...


The list is for unschoolers. Does your son have the choice of
whether or not he wants to go to school or not? Could he quit
whenever he wants? Could he decide to never do homework again or to
turn the rest of his tests in blank?
Sheila



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Renee Seawell

Hi Christina: I'm so sorry about the way this discussion has turned. I, for one, am glad you're
on this list whether your unschooling or not right now. How will you get advice and learn more
about homeschooling if you're not welcomed on this list?

Mama in GA

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In a message dated 12/12/02 7:28:44 AM, clr71@... writes:

<< So since I'm not unschooling at this moment I'm not welcome here? >>

Welcome to read, but not quite as welcome to give school-based advice.

You can GIVE school-based advice, but if you're interested in unschooling
even later on, perhaps you should listen to the responses and not try to get
all of us to accept your opinions as valid even though your child is in
school.

Repeatedly you're asking "So working parents aren't welcome?" TOTALLY
ignoring the seminal fact that your child goes to school and so you're not
unschooling.

Sandra

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I knew what you meant. I'm seriously wondering whether you're just
being
> hypothetical or parotting what you've heard others say before.
Because in
> practice, in homes where the children have freedoms we're
discussing, I
> haven't seen the problems you're assuring us exist.


I'm neither being hypothetical nor am I being a parrot. In homes
where children have these total lack of limits, these problems *do*
exist. We've seen them discussed on this list, I've heard them
discussed in real life, I've seen the problems occur in homes I've
been in. Many people do equate unschooling with a lifestyle that
includes absolutely no parental limits on what the *parent* will do,
with a style of parenting that allows their children to do whatever
they want to, when they want to, with little respect for the rights
of others. That might work very well for you and yours, and in that
case - great! But it doesn't work equally well for everyone, and it
is also not necessary to embrace this free-for-all lifestyle in order
to unschool. The two things are not synonymous. Unschooling means to
me that my kid can choose when and where their learning will occur,
and that I will support it. But it doesn't mean that when I'm half
asleep at midnight I will read them twenty more pages of their Star
Wars book, or whatever.

I think, in fact, that struggling with when and where to set limits
is a big factor in unschooling burnout for many, many parents. And so
this discussion keeps coming up, and I respect that you have one
answer to the question of how to set limits (or not, as the case may
be), but that style may not work for everyon. I have a different way
of going about unschooling and setting my own personal limits. It
usually works well for our family, so I share that as well. That
doesn't mean your way is "wrong", and I'd hope that my way is not
considered "wrong" as well. There should be many, many different ways
that unschooling works for families, or else it is just another dogma
forced from above.

> I don't think anyone has recommended or claimed that. They're
recommending
> against arbitrary rules and against the idea that parents have
rights and
> needs, but kids just have wants and limits-pushing.

How about that parents have rights, and kids have rights??? I don't
have a right to go into my kid's room when he's asleep and demand
that he read me a book. He doesn't have the right to do that to me
either. We each have our own limits, and hopefully we each respect
each other's limits. When our own limits are not being respected, we
each have the right to say "No, I won't do that."

> In your head you have an idea that people are on the brink of
becoming one
> another's servants?

No, but I would certainly feel like a servant if my entire life was
dedicated to doing whatever my children asked of me. And that's the
frustration that some people feel when they enter into that
lifestyle. That's the frustration that's being expressed here, and
has been expressed here in various posts over the years.

> It never occurs to me that there is any servitude.

And I don't feel that there is between myself and my children either.
In either direction.

> I see myself as my child's mentor, partner, and guide. We're on
the same
> team.

Ditto. And in our personal team, we respect each other's personal
limits. Perhaps you have fewer personal limits and are perfectly
happy with the way that works for you. I may have more (or less, who
knows?) but it works for us as well. And both are unschooling, and
neither is more "right" than another, different way.

Blue Skies,

-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/12/2002 9:59:53 AM Central Standard Time,
diamondair@... writes:


> And in our personal team, we respect each other's personal
> limits. Perhaps you have fewer personal limits and are perfectly
> happy with the way that works for you

I think maybe you two are arguing the same point. Your child's needs are
met, so they are not encroaching on your limits. Because you read to them
whenever you can when they want you to, they aren't going to ask you to read
to them when you can't.

Elizabeth


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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/12/02 9:28:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
clr71@... writes:

> So since I'm not unschooling at this moment I'm not welcome here? I was
> enjoying this list but I guess I'll find another outlet for discussion.
>
>

Come on Christina, Chill out.
Nobody has said anything like that.
Did you come here to learn about unschooling? Most of us have (I have to
believe that like any list there are a few trolls here)
If so, we are giving you our version, in my opinion, the puret form of
unschooling. One that works. Listen for a while and maybe you'll begin to
understand. I think that listening/reading for at LEAST two weeks is
beneficial because a new reader will be able to see, really see, what is
being discussed while having the knowledge that the posters are saying these
wacky things because the new reader is not welcome. It's not YOU we are
talking about. It is the ideas that many many of us have come here believing
to be truth and learning that there is a better truth.
Stay a while, read at Unschooling.com message boards and after a while, if
what we say doesn't speak to your heart, then you can keep on keeping on.
I doubt you'll be able to if you have an open mind.
Elissa


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