Thoughts?
Julie Stauffer
Hi all,
I could use some input. I have 5 kids, ages 12 to 3, and this post is in
reference to the older two. We are radical unschoolers and the kids are in
complete control of what they do or don't do and have been for several
years. Here is the problem: I end up having to nag. Example: Adriane and
Zach signed up for a dog training project with 4-H. Once a week they meet
with a professional trainer and then have daily practice with their dogs.
We discussed all of what was required with the project before they signed up
and the kids were sure it wouldn't be a problem, in fact it was their idea,
etc.. Well, a few weeks into the project and the kids forget to train their
animals. I gently ask if the dogs have been trained and I get "Oh yeah, in
a minute, I want to watch this" or whatever. Well, the minute comes and
goes and the dog doesn't get trained, the day comes and goes and the dog
doesn't get trained, then when they meet with the trainer, the entire class
is slowed down because my kids didn't do what they agreed they would do.
This is an ongoing thing with almost all of their projects or activities.
Last night, the kids wanted to bring the dogs inside. I said fine but
please don't fall asleep with the dogs in the house, make sure you put the
dogs out before you go to bed. I then go to bed and an hour or so later
wake up...Adriane has gone to bed and Zach is asleep in the chair and both
dogs are roaming the house. (We have a very old (18 years) cat that the dogs
like to harass). I bounced the kids up and had them do what they said they
would do in the first place but I didn't like how that felt. Often I pick
up the slack but then I feel put upon because the kids said they would take
care of it and they didn't.
Zach will use his father's tools and just leave them laying around all over
the place. He is well aware that he is welcome and encouraged to use
anything he wants if he will just put it back when he is done. He doesn't.
I remind him and I get put off. It usually then doesn't get picked up at
all unless I remind him again (nag). Yuck.
I feel like I am still having to control, having to make them do things or
having to tell them "no, because remember last time....." I have fallen
into this role and I don't like it. I do resent the fact that the kids
choose to do these things and then I'm the one left holding the bag.
We talk about this stuff at length. "Why do you think you are having a
problem remembering....", "What do you think would help....", "What if we
tried....." The kids see my point and it is better for a day or two and
then we are right back to Mom being everybody's nag about stuff.
Help me get a better grip on this. Or perhaps I simply have too high of
expectations of the kids and nagging is simply part of the territory. But
then if I am having to "make" them train the dog or whatever....what is the
big difference between that and making them clean their room or nagging them
about what they eat?
Julie
I could use some input. I have 5 kids, ages 12 to 3, and this post is in
reference to the older two. We are radical unschoolers and the kids are in
complete control of what they do or don't do and have been for several
years. Here is the problem: I end up having to nag. Example: Adriane and
Zach signed up for a dog training project with 4-H. Once a week they meet
with a professional trainer and then have daily practice with their dogs.
We discussed all of what was required with the project before they signed up
and the kids were sure it wouldn't be a problem, in fact it was their idea,
etc.. Well, a few weeks into the project and the kids forget to train their
animals. I gently ask if the dogs have been trained and I get "Oh yeah, in
a minute, I want to watch this" or whatever. Well, the minute comes and
goes and the dog doesn't get trained, the day comes and goes and the dog
doesn't get trained, then when they meet with the trainer, the entire class
is slowed down because my kids didn't do what they agreed they would do.
This is an ongoing thing with almost all of their projects or activities.
Last night, the kids wanted to bring the dogs inside. I said fine but
please don't fall asleep with the dogs in the house, make sure you put the
dogs out before you go to bed. I then go to bed and an hour or so later
wake up...Adriane has gone to bed and Zach is asleep in the chair and both
dogs are roaming the house. (We have a very old (18 years) cat that the dogs
like to harass). I bounced the kids up and had them do what they said they
would do in the first place but I didn't like how that felt. Often I pick
up the slack but then I feel put upon because the kids said they would take
care of it and they didn't.
Zach will use his father's tools and just leave them laying around all over
the place. He is well aware that he is welcome and encouraged to use
anything he wants if he will just put it back when he is done. He doesn't.
I remind him and I get put off. It usually then doesn't get picked up at
all unless I remind him again (nag). Yuck.
I feel like I am still having to control, having to make them do things or
having to tell them "no, because remember last time....." I have fallen
into this role and I don't like it. I do resent the fact that the kids
choose to do these things and then I'm the one left holding the bag.
We talk about this stuff at length. "Why do you think you are having a
problem remembering....", "What do you think would help....", "What if we
tried....." The kids see my point and it is better for a day or two and
then we are right back to Mom being everybody's nag about stuff.
Help me get a better grip on this. Or perhaps I simply have too high of
expectations of the kids and nagging is simply part of the territory. But
then if I am having to "make" them train the dog or whatever....what is the
big difference between that and making them clean their room or nagging them
about what they eat?
Julie
Natural Simplicity Momma
I am waiting on some input on this also. I have some similar problems.
Ours has to do with chores and cleaning up after themselves mainly.
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ours has to do with chores and cleaning up after themselves mainly.
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/02 11:54:58 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< Help me get a better grip on this. Or perhaps I simply have too high of
expectations of the kids and nagging is simply part of the territory. But
then if I am having to "make" them train the dog or whatever....what is the
big difference between that and making them clean their room or nagging them
about what they eat? >>
I ask Holly sometimes if she had practiced her fiddle. She usually remembers
on her own. If she doesn't, I don't press. I might say "Is it going to be
okay with you if you go and haven't practiced?" And she'll be honest and say
yes or no. It's not the same answer every week.
I have to remind Kirby to wash his karate gi sometimes. I used to just do it
all the time. Gradually it's become his job. I used to wake him up for
work but it's been a long time since he didn't get up on his own.
Marty is pretty organized. Sometimes I "checklist him," like if he's having
friends over and it's nearly time I might ask if he's thought about snacks,
if there are enough places for people to sit, if they have drinks, if he has
something for Renee (vegetarian). Usually his answers are yes, but he seems
to like to go over it with me.
If they forget to feed the animals, I just do it. (I'm able to feed the cats
now, but not the dog yet, but that's temporary.)
Sometimes if I've done something they were supposed to do, I'll ask them to
do something for me, and "give them the bill," like... "Kirby, I washed and
dried your gi; can you bring in some firewood?"
I remind my husband of things, too, and he reminds me. I think it's just
part of being a team.
Sandra
<< Help me get a better grip on this. Or perhaps I simply have too high of
expectations of the kids and nagging is simply part of the territory. But
then if I am having to "make" them train the dog or whatever....what is the
big difference between that and making them clean their room or nagging them
about what they eat? >>
I ask Holly sometimes if she had practiced her fiddle. She usually remembers
on her own. If she doesn't, I don't press. I might say "Is it going to be
okay with you if you go and haven't practiced?" And she'll be honest and say
yes or no. It's not the same answer every week.
I have to remind Kirby to wash his karate gi sometimes. I used to just do it
all the time. Gradually it's become his job. I used to wake him up for
work but it's been a long time since he didn't get up on his own.
Marty is pretty organized. Sometimes I "checklist him," like if he's having
friends over and it's nearly time I might ask if he's thought about snacks,
if there are enough places for people to sit, if they have drinks, if he has
something for Renee (vegetarian). Usually his answers are yes, but he seems
to like to go over it with me.
If they forget to feed the animals, I just do it. (I'm able to feed the cats
now, but not the dog yet, but that's temporary.)
Sometimes if I've done something they were supposed to do, I'll ask them to
do something for me, and "give them the bill," like... "Kirby, I washed and
dried your gi; can you bring in some firewood?"
I remind my husband of things, too, and he reminds me. I think it's just
part of being a team.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/2002 12:54:49 PM Central Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
then, depending on the age of the child, I will either take them by the hand
and lead them to the chore and give them the physical support to do it, or,
in the case of the teenagers, stand in their way until they go and do it.
(Am I the only one whose teens are always on their way out the door!?)
Sometimes I only have to suggest the first step to the task and that gets
them going. I also follow them and while they're doing it and make sure they
take the right steps to make it right (no shortcuts!). By this time, I feel
I'm entitled to see it followed through. They hate that, naturally. It's a
disincentive to leave their messes lying around. I don't have to do it very
often.
Disclaimer: I wouldn't do this with dog training or something like
that...only chores that they said they would do or it is right for them to
do--like put away my stuff that they've used.
Now, this only occurs after they've given their word they were going to do it
and much other conversation and time and gentle reminders have intervened.
It's more of an issue with the teenagers, because if they don't do something
like clean up a mess, then they leave the house for hours or days and I have
to do it if I need the house cleaned up for something. It's not fair for me
to have to clean up after the whole family just because they have busy
schedules, right?
Instead of nagging, I use my physical closeness to get their attention, is
basically what I'm saying.
With regard to the dog training, there's a great chapter about readiness in
the book "Living Joyfully with Children" (Win & Bill Sweet) about that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
> He is well aware that he is welcome and encouraged to useI hate to nag, too. I don't do it, though. I ask a couple of times, and
> anything he wants if he will just put it back when he is done. He doesn't.
> I remind him and I get put off. It usually then doesn't get picked up at
> all unless I remind him again (nag). Yuck.
>
then, depending on the age of the child, I will either take them by the hand
and lead them to the chore and give them the physical support to do it, or,
in the case of the teenagers, stand in their way until they go and do it.
(Am I the only one whose teens are always on their way out the door!?)
Sometimes I only have to suggest the first step to the task and that gets
them going. I also follow them and while they're doing it and make sure they
take the right steps to make it right (no shortcuts!). By this time, I feel
I'm entitled to see it followed through. They hate that, naturally. It's a
disincentive to leave their messes lying around. I don't have to do it very
often.
Disclaimer: I wouldn't do this with dog training or something like
that...only chores that they said they would do or it is right for them to
do--like put away my stuff that they've used.
Now, this only occurs after they've given their word they were going to do it
and much other conversation and time and gentle reminders have intervened.
It's more of an issue with the teenagers, because if they don't do something
like clean up a mess, then they leave the house for hours or days and I have
to do it if I need the house cleaned up for something. It's not fair for me
to have to clean up after the whole family just because they have busy
schedules, right?
Instead of nagging, I use my physical closeness to get their attention, is
basically what I'm saying.
With regard to the dog training, there's a great chapter about readiness in
the book "Living Joyfully with Children" (Win & Bill Sweet) about that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/02 11:04:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
carry him?
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I remind my husband of things, too, and he reminds me. I think it's justbut what if he doesn't want to be part of the team and just wants you to
> part of being a team.
>
>
carry him?
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> I remind my husband of things, too, and he reminds me. I think it's justI think it's different with the kids, at least a lot of kids. When they
> part of being a team.
aren't doing what they've agreed to do or whatever, I'm thinking that they
don't consider themselves part of the team. That's the way it often feels
with Lars. He hardly helps at all since I stopped making him do chores, and
it's been months now. Maybe that's part of de-choring. <g>
So then the question becomes, what do we do so that they *will* feel a part
of the team? I've been making more of a point of doing little things for
him lately, and that seems to have changed the feel some, but he still
forgets what he's agreed to far more often than he remembers. Maybe it's
the testosterone?
Tia
Betsy
**So then the question becomes, what do we do so that they *will* feel a
part of the team? **
Hi, Tia --
I never cared whether the lawn was mowed until I owned my own house.
Sorry to be discouraging.
Betsy
part of the team? **
Hi, Tia --
I never cared whether the lawn was mowed until I owned my own house.
Sorry to be discouraging.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/02 7:09:12 PM, hmsclmyboy@... writes:
<< but what if he doesn't want to be part of the team and just wants you to
carry him? >>
Hasn't happened.
<< but what if he doesn't want to be part of the team and just wants you to
carry him? >>
Hasn't happened.
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/02 10:10:15 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< So then the question becomes, what do we do so that they *will* feel a part
of the team? I've been making more of a point of doing little things for
him lately, and that seems to have changed the feel some, but he still
forgets what he's agreed to far more often than he remembers. >>
If they used to be made to do things, and some things weren't their job, it
will take a while, just in general. And I don't think any mom should expect
any child to do an adult's share of housework. There are rare cases in which
a child's interest runs to interior decorating or something, or someone's
anal about germs and decides to use a can of cleanser each week just to save
the universe. Generally, kids have better things to do than clean sinks.
And if moms do too? Don't clean the sinks so much.
Sandra
<< So then the question becomes, what do we do so that they *will* feel a part
of the team? I've been making more of a point of doing little things for
him lately, and that seems to have changed the feel some, but he still
forgets what he's agreed to far more often than he remembers. >>
If they used to be made to do things, and some things weren't their job, it
will take a while, just in general. And I don't think any mom should expect
any child to do an adult's share of housework. There are rare cases in which
a child's interest runs to interior decorating or something, or someone's
anal about germs and decides to use a can of cleanser each week just to save
the universe. Generally, kids have better things to do than clean sinks.
And if moms do too? Don't clean the sinks so much.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:20:53 PM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
thinking. We don't insist on it being my way or the highway. We do insist
on a little thinking towards at least being sanitary in their rooms and the
bathrooms, picking up after yourself, etc. Pitching in when necessary just
because they like peace and love me.
I know my children's homes will be as well kept (relative term!) as mine is
eventually. They'll grow up and feel differently about chores; it will be
for their own reasons, which I can't possibly inculcate into them directly.
(I believe they already have the reasons in 'em, just waiting to develop,
like permanent teeth.) My room was always a mess and I didn't do everything
my mother told me to do. Mostly, we did it right as she was pulling in the
driveway!
I turned out okay. ;)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
> I never cared whether the lawn was mowed until I owned my own house.Yeah, Betsy, I get you. And we chalk up a lot of stuff to that kind of
> Sorry to be discouraging.
>
>
thinking. We don't insist on it being my way or the highway. We do insist
on a little thinking towards at least being sanitary in their rooms and the
bathrooms, picking up after yourself, etc. Pitching in when necessary just
because they like peace and love me.
I know my children's homes will be as well kept (relative term!) as mine is
eventually. They'll grow up and feel differently about chores; it will be
for their own reasons, which I can't possibly inculcate into them directly.
(I believe they already have the reasons in 'em, just waiting to develop,
like permanent teeth.) My room was always a mess and I didn't do everything
my mother told me to do. Mostly, we did it right as she was pulling in the
driveway!
I turned out okay. ;)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/2002 12:40:32 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
complain about their husbands in this way, I just want to go and shake the
husbands! I had this very scenario yesterday.
Those marriages are in trouble, I think. The one carrying the load only had
two options, IMO. She can leave, or she can adapt her thinking that this is
what it is, and adjust her idea of what she can reasonably get accomplished
in her life with the dead weight she's dragging around. Nagging doesn't
help, and usually she's already tried it. I suppose the dead weight could
have a change of heart, but what do you do until then?
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> <<but what if he doesn't want to be part of the team and just wants you toIt does happen in a lot of marriages, though. When certain of my friends
> carry him? >>
>
> Hasn't happened.
>
complain about their husbands in this way, I just want to go and shake the
husbands! I had this very scenario yesterday.
Those marriages are in trouble, I think. The one carrying the load only had
two options, IMO. She can leave, or she can adapt her thinking that this is
what it is, and adjust her idea of what she can reasonably get accomplished
in her life with the dead weight she's dragging around. Nagging doesn't
help, and usually she's already tried it. I suppose the dead weight could
have a change of heart, but what do you do until then?
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
susan marie
hmm..
you could have a team meeting
if he doesn't cooperate, he could run laps
he could get demoted to the jv, thus losing his starting position
and finally, if he won't be part of the team, of course, he gets cut or
traded
...oh, sorry
too early, too little coffee, too many years of coaching high school
yea team!
coach sue
you could have a team meeting
if he doesn't cooperate, he could run laps
he could get demoted to the jv, thus losing his starting position
and finally, if he won't be part of the team, of course, he gets cut or
traded
...oh, sorry
too early, too little coffee, too many years of coaching high school
yea team!
coach sue
On Friday, November 22, 2002, at 09:08 PM, hmsclmyboy@... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/22/02 11:04:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
>
>
> > I remind my husband of things, too, and he reminds me. I think it's
> just
> > part of being a team.
> >
> >
>
> but what if he doesn't want to be part of the team and just wants you to
> carry him?
>
> Heidi
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
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peace,
Susan
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
**I never cared whether the lawn was mowed until I owned my own house.**
And_I_still_don't,
I_guess_maybe_that's_why
I_like_it_out_in_the_country!
If_you_have_longer_grass_there_are
more_animals_and_things_to_study!
Kelli
tuckervill@... wrote:In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:20:53 PM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
thinking. We don't insist on it being my way or the highway. We do insist
on a little thinking towards at least being sanitary in their rooms and the
bathrooms, picking up after yourself, etc. Pitching in when necessary just
because they like peace and love me.
I know my children's homes will be as well kept (relative term!) as mine is
eventually. They'll grow up and feel differently about chores; it will be
for their own reasons, which I can't possibly inculcate into them directly.
(I believe they already have the reasons in 'em, just waiting to develop,
like permanent teeth.) My room was always a mess and I didn't do everything
my mother told me to do. Mostly, we did it right as she was pulling in the
driveway!
I turned out okay. ;)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And_I_still_don't,
I_guess_maybe_that's_why
I_like_it_out_in_the_country!
If_you_have_longer_grass_there_are
more_animals_and_things_to_study!
Kelli
tuckervill@... wrote:In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:20:53 PM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
> I never cared whether the lawn was mowed until I owned my own house.Yeah, Betsy, I get you. And we chalk up a lot of stuff to that kind of
> Sorry to be discouraging.
>
>
thinking. We don't insist on it being my way or the highway. We do insist
on a little thinking towards at least being sanitary in their rooms and the
bathrooms, picking up after yourself, etc. Pitching in when necessary just
because they like peace and love me.
I know my children's homes will be as well kept (relative term!) as mine is
eventually. They'll grow up and feel differently about chores; it will be
for their own reasons, which I can't possibly inculcate into them directly.
(I believe they already have the reasons in 'em, just waiting to develop,
like permanent teeth.) My room was always a mess and I didn't do everything
my mother told me to do. Mostly, we did it right as she was pulling in the
driveway!
I turned out okay. ;)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>>If they used to be made to do things, and some things weren't their job,it
will take a while, just in general. And I don't think any mom should expect
any child to do an adult's share of housework.>>
I definitely don't ask that much. I'm thinking more along the lines of,
"When you get up from watching TV, could pick up your dirty dishes at the
same time and bring them down to the kitchen?" Or, "It really hurts my
(arthritic) hands to chop kindling for the fire (we have no other heat) so
could you chop me a little bit before you go out to ride?" These requests
get an OK from him, but he can forget within about 2 minutes.
>> kids have better things to do than clean sinks.And if moms do too? Don't clean the sinks so much.<>
My housekeeping is about as far from anal is it could get. <g> I'm really
thinking more about the little stuff that keeps the house from looking like
a complete disaster. And someone mentioned tools. That's a big one for me
too. Even just the household stuff like tape and scissors, etc. It's so
annoying to spend ages looking for the tool to do some little job that might
take 2 seconds to do once you find the tool. (I've taken to building a
collection of such tools in our bedroom that are off-limits to the one who
doesn't put tools away.)
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/02 3:48:46 AM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< Those marriages are in trouble, I think. The one carrying the load only
had
two options, IMO. She can leave, or she can adapt her thinking that this is
what it is, and adjust her idea of what she can reasonably get accomplished
in her life with the dead weight she's dragging around. Nagging doesn't
help, and usually she's already tried it. I suppose the dead weight could
have a change of heart, but what do you do until then? >>
More than two options.
Go on vacation for a while so he appreciates things like socks in the drawer
and dishes back in the cabinet and kids being driven around. (I don't
recommend breaking a leg, but that's having an effect here. Keith didn't
know where to plug the vacuum cleaner in to do the stairs. Kirby didn't know
where the biggest cooking pot was kept.)
Counselling. If the husband won't go to couples counselling, the wife can go
without him.
Sandra
<< Those marriages are in trouble, I think. The one carrying the load only
had
two options, IMO. She can leave, or she can adapt her thinking that this is
what it is, and adjust her idea of what she can reasonably get accomplished
in her life with the dead weight she's dragging around. Nagging doesn't
help, and usually she's already tried it. I suppose the dead weight could
have a change of heart, but what do you do until then? >>
More than two options.
Go on vacation for a while so he appreciates things like socks in the drawer
and dishes back in the cabinet and kids being driven around. (I don't
recommend breaking a leg, but that's having an effect here. Keith didn't
know where to plug the vacuum cleaner in to do the stairs. Kirby didn't know
where the biggest cooking pot was kept.)
Counselling. If the husband won't go to couples counselling, the wife can go
without him.
Sandra
jwoolfolk
>>>>Zach will use his father's tools and just leave them laying around all over
the place. He is well aware that he is welcome and encouraged to use
anything he wants if he will just put it back when he is done. He doesn't.
I remind him and I get put off. It usually then doesn't get picked up at
all unless I remind him again (nag). Yuck.
>>>>>How important are your husband's tools to him? I know my dh is pretty anal about his tools...partly because some are expensive and partly because...well its just the way he is. Plus when you've got a job to do and you can't find the one tool you need...ugh. Maybe dh could deal with the tool issue, since they belong to him. For that matter, except for the really expensive ones, how about helping Zach get tools of his own?
Julie W in AR
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