[email protected]

ALAN RICKMAN SUCKS!

Now that I have your attention!<GGG>


Y'all, I've had about all of this as I can handle. I figured I'd bring it
here to show you guys what I'm up against in SC. It's absolutely
unbelievable! This has been going on for two-three days. Sandra's seen a few,
but nothing like this! I have absolutely NO DOUBTS that this woman will EVER
read here, so I have no qualms about publicly posting.


"I said I wouldn't reply, but I will one last time. If
a child likes to paint, a prent can incorp. history,
science and math into it. A child likes to cook,
measuring cup is math, evolution from cake batter to
cake bread is science and so on. If a parent teaches
math one week, science the next, that is learning. If
you take a drive and the sign says ten miles to go and
then 8 miles to go then you can incorp. that as
educational teaching of math. One last time, how you
teach your child is your choice, to out right refuse
to teach your child is another! Child led learning
allows the child to learn in the manner the parent
decides is suited to that child. Child led learning
is still guided with the parents help and the parent
keeping a record of that childs progress with or
without an actual grading system of points. I am only
saying a parent who thinks unschooling means your
child does not have to leearn to read and write, add
and subtract just because the world requires this or
the child feels they don't want to is taking the term
unschooling out of context. Your can teach your child
using unconvetional methods, you have to keep a
portfolio of your childs learning progress, and the
law does mandate required subjects and it mandates 180
days of such learning. If you are teaching or
allowing your child to learn in a manner that is
learning, your teaching! If your child plays all day,
has no clue at age 9 how to read see spot run, you are
not unschooling, you are just not schooling period!
That is the point I am trying to get across. There is
a major dif. in unschooling and not schooling.
Unschooling still teaches in one manner or another.
Not Schooling means your child is not learning
anything he/she will need to know to make it in this
life."


Can you guys BELIEVE this? I'm having a hard time even forming a response
because I get too angry. I may need to unsub---but I hate to leave it like
this. BTW, Myranda has responded very well several times! <g>

~Kelly

Myranda

LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Just sent another one, Kelly, if you want to ignore her! I'm not angry, I'm here laughing my butt off! BTW, I've had several people e-mail me privately, and we are doing some good staying on the list so don't leave!! I'm almost caught up on my records, too. Need some help? <beg>
Myranda

From: kbcdlovejo@...
Can you guys BELIEVE this? I'm having a hard time even forming a response
because I get too angry. I may need to unsub---but I hate to leave it like
this. BTW, Myranda has responded very well several times! <g>

~Kelly




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sherry

I mostly see why this post bothers you, this doesn't sound like
unschooling to me and I'm still trying to get a handle on it...it sounds
more like unit studies. But just for clarification....

<< There is a major dif. in unschooling and not schooling.
Unschooling still teaches in one manner or another.
Not Schooling means your child is not learning>>

Isn't this true? I mean I'm sure if the parent does not interact with
the child they will still learn something. But isn't unschooling still
about "teaching" our children? Actually, facilitating is probably a
better word. But isn't this statement basically true?

Sherry

-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] SC turmoil

ALAN RICKMAN SUCKS!

Now that I have your attention!<GGG>


Y'all, I've had about all of this as I can handle. I figured I'd bring
it
here to show you guys what I'm up against in SC. It's absolutely
unbelievable! This has been going on for two-three days. Sandra's seen a
few,
but nothing like this! I have absolutely NO DOUBTS that this woman will
EVER
read here, so I have no qualms about publicly posting.


"I said I wouldn't reply, but I will one last time. If
a child likes to paint, a prent can incorp. history,
science and math into it. A child likes to cook,
measuring cup is math, evolution from cake batter to
cake bread is science and so on. If a parent teaches
math one week, science the next, that is learning. If
you take a drive and the sign says ten miles to go and
then 8 miles to go then you can incorp. that as
educational teaching of math. One last time, how you
teach your child is your choice, to out right refuse
to teach your child is another! Child led learning
allows the child to learn in the manner the parent
decides is suited to that child. Child led learning
is still guided with the parents help and the parent
keeping a record of that childs progress with or
without an actual grading system of points. I am only
saying a parent who thinks unschooling means your
child does not have to leearn to read and write, add
and subtract just because the world requires this or
the child feels they don't want to is taking the term
unschooling out of context. Your can teach your child
using unconvetional methods, you have to keep a
portfolio of your childs learning progress, and the
law does mandate required subjects and it mandates 180
days of such learning. If you are teaching or
allowing your child to learn in a manner that is
learning, your teaching! If your child plays all day,
has no clue at age 9 how to read see spot run, you are
not unschooling, you are just not schooling period!
That is the point I am trying to get across. There is
a major dif. in unschooling and not schooling.
Unschooling still teaches in one manner or another.
Not Schooling means your child is not learning
anything he/she will need to know to make it in this
life."


Can you guys BELIEVE this? I'm having a hard time even forming a
response
because I get too angry. I may need to unsub---but I hate to leave it
like
this. BTW, Myranda has responded very well several times! <g>

~Kelly

~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Deborah Lewis

***Child led learning
allows the child to learn in the manner the parent
decides is suited to that child.***

WHAT???

What?

Deb L, wondering if you can just find someone to go smack her? <g>

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/2002 5:47:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
> Deb L, wondering if you can just find someone to go smack her? <g>

Ya' volunteering? <G>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/2002 5:39:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
juicemom@... writes:
> << There is a major dif. in unschooling and not schooling.
> Unschooling still teaches in one manner or another.
> Not Schooling means your child is not learning>>
>
> Isn't this true? I mean I'm sure if the parent does not interact with
> the child they will still learn something. But isn't unschooling still
> about "teaching" our children? Actually, facilitating is probably a
> better word. But isn't this statement basically true?

No.

It's the difference between teaching and learning. I do hope Sandra will
chime in with her wonderful description of learning VS teaching---about the
song and dance. I have it here in my "Book of Sandra" (right next to my
"Book of Joyce", my "Book of Anne", my Book of Deb" ---which I just added
too! Thank you! <G>, and others). I'll just have to sift through it if she
doesn't come through for me. <g>

I'm publishing after the next conference. I am. Really. We all need to talk! <
g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

>wondering if you can just find someone to go smack her? <g>

***Ya' volunteering? <G>***

I thought you'd never ask! <g>

Deb L

Magdalena Hanson

This woman's post is ASININE!!
I'm new here and have never posted but I couldn't just let this one pass me
by!
Magdalena
----- Original Message -----
From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:57 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] SC turmoil


> ALAN RICKMAN SUCKS!
>
> Now that I have your attention!<GGG>
>
>
> Y'all, I've had about all of this as I can handle. I figured I'd bring it
> here to show you guys what I'm up against in SC. It's absolutely
> unbelievable! This has been going on for two-three days. Sandra's seen a
few,
> but nothing like this! I have absolutely NO DOUBTS that this woman will
EVER
> read here, so I have no qualms about publicly posting.
>
>
> "I said I wouldn't reply, but I will one last time. If
> a child likes to paint, a prent can incorp. history,
> science and math into it. A child likes to cook,
> measuring cup is math, evolution from cake batter to
> cake bread is science and so on. If a parent teaches
> math one week, science the next, that is learning. If
> you take a drive and the sign says ten miles to go and
> then 8 miles to go then you can incorp. that as
> educational teaching of math. One last time, how you
> teach your child is your choice, to out right refuse
> to teach your child is another! Child led learning
> allows the child to learn in the manner the parent
> decides is suited to that child. Child led learning
> is still guided with the parents help and the parent
> keeping a record of that childs progress with or
> without an actual grading system of points. I am only
> saying a parent who thinks unschooling means your
> child does not have to leearn to read and write, add
> and subtract just because the world requires this or
> the child feels they don't want to is taking the term
> unschooling out of context. Your can teach your child
> using unconvetional methods, you have to keep a
> portfolio of your childs learning progress, and the
> law does mandate required subjects and it mandates 180
> days of such learning. If you are teaching or
> allowing your child to learn in a manner that is
> learning, your teaching! If your child plays all day,
> has no clue at age 9 how to read see spot run, you are
> not unschooling, you are just not schooling period!
> That is the point I am trying to get across. There is
> a major dif. in unschooling and not schooling.
> Unschooling still teaches in one manner or another.
> Not Schooling means your child is not learning
> anything he/she will need to know to make it in this
> life."
>
>
> Can you guys BELIEVE this? I'm having a hard time even forming a response
> because I get too angry. I may need to unsub---but I hate to leave it like
> this. BTW, Myranda has responded very well several times! <g>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/02 3:37:36 PM, juicemom@... writes:

<< But isn't unschooling still
about "teaching" our children? >>

No.

<<Actually, facilitating is probably a
better word. >>

It's not just a better word, it's an entire 180-degree turn and a whole
different concept of life.

If children can't learn without being taught, then there is no unschooling.
There is no natural learning.

If a parent thinks she has to teach, or thinks the child learned to walk and
talk because she taught him to, that parent will be sure that reading and
writing must be taught. But if a parent sees that all a child needs to learn
to walk is some safe stuff to pull up on, and that kids will learn to talk
from just playing with talking, being talked to, getting feedback on what he
tries to say... then that parent will be more ready to understand how a child
can learn to read the same way.

So "teaching" as a favored idea or point of pride can be a block to
unschooling.
That doesn't mean (as so many seem to think) that not teaching inhibits
learning, in a busy unschooling family. Learning WITH children is BIG
learning.

School did a job on most of its attendees, one way or another. Some will go
to the grave thinking math HAS to look like thirty exercises at the end of a
vague math lesson in a government book.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 11/21/02 3:57 PM, kbcdlovejo@... at kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> I am only
> saying a parent who thinks unschooling means your
> child does not have to leearn to read and write, add
> and subtract just because the world requires this or
> the child feels they don't want to is taking the term
> unschooling out of context.

What's this debate about? Why does she feel it's necessary to draw this line
between kids who are learning and kids who aren't? Why do the supposed
nonlearning kids concern her? Has HSLDA convinced her that there are radical
homeschoolers who deliberately keep their children ignorant as a way of
thumbing their noses at the government, and are therefore a threat to all
homeschoolers?

It sounds like she's saying "I'm not talking about real homeschoolers who
might even call themselves unschoolers. I'm talking about *them.* You know.
THEM. The ones whose kids aren't learning anything. The ones who say they're
homeschooling but really aren't. So it sounds like she's trying to distance
herself from being lumped with people who will cause homeschoolers to come
under more scrutiny.

But how did the subject of "those kids" come up? Did it come up just from a
discussion of unschooling?

> One last time, how you
> teach your child is your choice, to out right refuse
> to teach your child is another!

This sounds like a word use barrier or being trapped in a paradigm. When she
sees "no teaching" she reads "no learning." Regardless of how you explain
that no teaching doesn't mean no learning, she's not going to get it.

> If you are teaching or
> allowing your child to learn in a manner that is
> learning, your teaching! If your child plays all day,
> has no clue at age 9 how to read see spot run, you are
> not unschooling, you are just not schooling period!

It's like you're trying to explain to someone who has no concept of food
being grown, only bought at a grocery store. You're saying you don't buy
food from the grocery store and she's reading you don't have food in the
house. The concept of farming is lost on her because you aren't getting
*her* point that if you don't buy food at the grocery you can't have food in
the house so therefore you're starving your family.

And her food choices are limited to what's in the grocery store (clearly
educational stuff and activities) so the idea of eating anything else
(playing) is like saying you eat cardboard and sand.

> Child led learning
> allows the child to learn in the manner the parent
> decides is suited to that child. Child led learning
> is still guided with the parents help and the parent
> keeping a record of that childs progress with or
> without an actual grading system of points.

Though the first sentence is nonsense, the second makes it sound like she's
trying to say something about if you can do the stuff the state requires to
the state's satisfaction then obviously you've taught them, how else would
someone be able to fill out the paperwork.

Joyce

Myranda

I didn't re-read the whole post Kelly sent you guys... but I think it was an earlier one that this woman clearly stated that if you're not teaching your children (read: they're not learning) then you are sickening, neglectful, are not following state law, and may/will have your kids taken away from you. :::sigh::: And to think I just finally remembered to "get legal" and join her sister's association this last month. I swear, I'm gonna start my own as soon as I have a little bit of time!
Myranda

From: Fetteroll
on 11/21/02 3:57 PM, kbcdlovejo@... at kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> I am only
> saying a parent who thinks unschooling means your
> child does not have to leearn to read and write, add
> and subtract just because the world requires this or
> the child feels they don't want to is taking the term
> unschooling out of context.

What's this debate about? Why does she feel it's necessary to draw this line
between kids who are learning and kids who aren't? Why do the supposed
nonlearning kids concern her? Has HSLDA convinced her that there are radical
homeschoolers who deliberately keep their children ignorant as a way of
thumbing their noses at the government, and are therefore a threat to all
homeschoolers?

It sounds like she's saying "I'm not talking about real homeschoolers who
might even call themselves unschoolers. I'm talking about *them.* You know.
THEM. The ones whose kids aren't learning anything. The ones who say they're
homeschooling but really aren't. So it sounds like she's trying to distance
herself from being lumped with people who will cause homeschoolers to come
under more scrutiny.

But how did the subject of "those kids" come up? Did it come up just from a
discussion of unschooling?

> One last time, how you
> teach your child is your choice, to out right refuse
> to teach your child is another!

This sounds like a word use barrier or being trapped in a paradigm. When she
sees "no teaching" she reads "no learning." Regardless of how you explain
that no teaching doesn't mean no learning, she's not going to get it.

> If you are teaching or
> allowing your child to learn in a manner that is
> learning, your teaching! If your child plays all day,
> has no clue at age 9 how to read see spot run, you are
> not unschooling, you are just not schooling period!

It's like you're trying to explain to someone who has no concept of food
being grown, only bought at a grocery store. You're saying you don't buy
food from the grocery store and she's reading you don't have food in the
house. The concept of farming is lost on her because you aren't getting
*her* point that if you don't buy food at the grocery you can't have food in
the house so therefore you're starving your family.

And her food choices are limited to what's in the grocery store (clearly
educational stuff and activities) so the idea of eating anything else
(playing) is like saying you eat cardboard and sand.

> Child led learning
> allows the child to learn in the manner the parent
> decides is suited to that child. Child led learning
> is still guided with the parents help and the parent
> keeping a record of that childs progress with or
> without an actual grading system of points.

Though the first sentence is nonsense, the second makes it sound like she's
trying to say something about if you can do the stuff the state requires to
the state's satisfaction then obviously you've taught them, how else would
someone be able to fill out the paperwork.

Joyce


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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/02 8:20:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
myrandab@... writes:

> And to think I just finally remembered to "get legal" and join her sister's
> association this last month.

Ahhh....So she has an agenda!
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Myranda

I doubt very seriously she knows..... if she did, it would be a serious breach of confidentiality. For all her sister knows, I was registered with the school board before transferring to her association, anyway. They both just don't understand unschooling and have already made up their minds as to what they think it is.
Myranda
From: Earthmomma67@...
> And to think I just finally remembered to "get legal" and join her sister's
> association this last month.

Ahhh....So she has an agenda!
Elissa




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/2002 8:20:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
myrandab@... writes:

> And to think I just finally remembered to "get legal" and join her sister's
> association this last month.

BUMMER!

And I think that WAS the sister. Her writing was too----well, that's been
discussed on this list ad nauseum. I didn't want to be associated with an
organization whose head doesn't have a grasp on the written word (spelling,
punctuation, grammar, etc). Sorry. I am prejudiced that way. Her
ignorance/lack of "education" would surely reflect on a state accountability
association---and maybe me by association.

Maybe I was right.

~Kelly
Education consists mainly in what we have unlearned.
- Mark Twain's Notebook, 1898



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/02 6:20:45 AM, myrandab@... writes:

<< that if you're not teaching your children (read: they're not learning)
then you are sickening, neglectful, are not following state law, and may/will
have your kids taken away from you. :::sigh::: >>

Prison was mentioned.
You could go to prison.

It was entirely a boogey-man scenario drawn by someone who has a double stake
in kid-control, I'm guessing.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/02 8:44:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
myrandab@... writes:

> I doubt very seriously she knows

I was referring to the fact that people "need" what her sister can offer.
Kind of like HSLDA scaring people into "needing" their services.
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]