school at homers/spelling
[email protected]
Norma,
When you say something like "I allowed ______ IF she...." raises red flags
for most unschoolers.
It was the way your worded it...I would have questioned whether you were
unschooling also.
I don't think any animosity was intended....
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
When you say something like "I allowed ______ IF she...." raises red flags
for most unschoolers.
It was the way your worded it...I would have questioned whether you were
unschooling also.
I don't think any animosity was intended....
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
tessimal
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., starsuncloud@c... wrote:
Still waiting for that definition of unschooling. But when it's my
business computer, in my office, and my 8 year old daughter is using
it to IM on a chess and chat site at which I had observed several
players who clearly were not behaving like young kids, though they
claimed to be, I think I have a right to oversee the situation. And
since she was doing something she wanted to do, was highly motivated
to do, I decided to motivate her a little more to polish up her
spelling while she was at it. She did, and is a good speller now. I
didn't ever have to do it again after she gave up the chess & chat
site because the players began to show their true colors, with foul
language, sexual innuendo and other unpleasant online behavior.
But that's just one way I do "unschooling": I make use of whatever
opportunity presents itself. But, sure, why not assume the worst of
anyone. Maybe that is not what you would have done. So what? I saw
it as a great opportunity. It worked, all around. She wanted to
play chess online and chat and I needed to supervise that online
time, so might as well make it work. Besides, I see nothing wrong
with encouraging a child who is choosing to communicate in written
form to spell and communicate correctly, to learn to check her
spelling.
You all act like I was making her do spelling lessons, or work
sheets. Or I was standing over her with a whip. Yes, I ALLOWED her
to use my office machine, under my supervision because of her age and
what she wanted to do, what I had observed on that particular site,
but suggesting that she also learn to check her spelling while she
did this was a good move, one that I have never had to repeat since.
I don't think this is an unschooling list at all, but an "if you
don't do it just like we do it, then you're not doing it right"
list. Whatever happened to my freedom of choice? My right to grab
an opportunity when it appropriately presents itself? Oh, well. You
all go play with your "red flags" and leave me alone! I have as many
rights to make those kinds of calls as you do. My choices are no
better or no worse than anyone else's, and just like support
organizations, we all do better when folks are supportive, not
attacking one another because you don't happen to agree with some
nitpicky little thing I carefully and consideredly chose to do.
By the way, how do you who have all the answers choose to get
spelling into your children's realities? If not when they are
electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when?
Norma
> Norma,red flags
> When you say something like "I allowed ______ IF she...." raises
> for most unschoolers.were
> It was the way your worded it...I would have questioned whether you
> unschooling also.Ren:
> I don't think any animosity was intended....
>
> Ren
Still waiting for that definition of unschooling. But when it's my
business computer, in my office, and my 8 year old daughter is using
it to IM on a chess and chat site at which I had observed several
players who clearly were not behaving like young kids, though they
claimed to be, I think I have a right to oversee the situation. And
since she was doing something she wanted to do, was highly motivated
to do, I decided to motivate her a little more to polish up her
spelling while she was at it. She did, and is a good speller now. I
didn't ever have to do it again after she gave up the chess & chat
site because the players began to show their true colors, with foul
language, sexual innuendo and other unpleasant online behavior.
But that's just one way I do "unschooling": I make use of whatever
opportunity presents itself. But, sure, why not assume the worst of
anyone. Maybe that is not what you would have done. So what? I saw
it as a great opportunity. It worked, all around. She wanted to
play chess online and chat and I needed to supervise that online
time, so might as well make it work. Besides, I see nothing wrong
with encouraging a child who is choosing to communicate in written
form to spell and communicate correctly, to learn to check her
spelling.
You all act like I was making her do spelling lessons, or work
sheets. Or I was standing over her with a whip. Yes, I ALLOWED her
to use my office machine, under my supervision because of her age and
what she wanted to do, what I had observed on that particular site,
but suggesting that she also learn to check her spelling while she
did this was a good move, one that I have never had to repeat since.
I don't think this is an unschooling list at all, but an "if you
don't do it just like we do it, then you're not doing it right"
list. Whatever happened to my freedom of choice? My right to grab
an opportunity when it appropriately presents itself? Oh, well. You
all go play with your "red flags" and leave me alone! I have as many
rights to make those kinds of calls as you do. My choices are no
better or no worse than anyone else's, and just like support
organizations, we all do better when folks are supportive, not
attacking one another because you don't happen to agree with some
nitpicky little thing I carefully and consideredly chose to do.
By the way, how do you who have all the answers choose to get
spelling into your children's realities? If not when they are
electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when?
Norma
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/2002 8:32:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tessimal@... writes:
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tessimal@... writes:
> By the way, how do you who have all the answers choose to getWhen they ask.
> spelling into your children's realities? If not when they are
> electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Natural Simplicity Momma
I don't think this is an unschooling list at all, but an "if you
don't do it just like we do it, then you're not doing it right"
list
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't do it just like we do it, then you're not doing it right"
list
>>>>>>>>I am beginning to feel that also. I am VERY new to homeschooling and unschooling and if I have ?s or need support I am not sure I will post it on this list. Seems to be more of a debate forum. I am not so sure that newbies to unschooling would get any helpful support here? Why am I still here? Because I am hoping that when I need some help maybe it will be a calm day and I will be able to get some advice and guidance not peppered by hostility or holier then thou attitudes. But from an "outsider" looking in that is what I have seen. I don't dare say I am perfect. Nor what I do in a day with my children is perfect. Thou I do strive to do my best and I believe child initiated learning is ideal. I would not pass judgment on how other families define unschooling. If my 12 you wants to do a worksheet I let him. If they want me to check spelling GREAT I will do it. My definition of unschool is allowing my children to learn in an environment free from boundaries. It is allowing them choices to decide HOW they want to learn be it games, reading, internet, hand on, tv, and most important just playing and living...
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tessimal
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
And did anyone inquire as to whether my daughter was asking about
spelling? Whether she recognized that she wanted to spell words
correctly? Whether it was her idea that motivated me to take
advantage of the situation? No. You all assumed that my daughter
had nothing to do with this. You know - ASSUME. Making and ASS out
of U and ME. Jumping off Assumption Point. I saw an appropriate
opportunity and I used it. It worked. She never had to be prompted,
ever, to check her own spelling. And I love the coded shorthand that
she and her friends use on IM now. Very creative. Has nothing to do
with formal written communication, nothing to do with spelling and
all its class distinguishing uppity-up conventions. Just as an e-
list has little to do with formal written communication, like what
one would expect in a book or article. This is supposed to be
spontaneous communcation, therefore probably lacking complete
information, therefore probably a good idea to ask questions first
and rip people apart later, if you must.
Norma
"What I can not create I can not understand." - Richard Feynman
> In a message dated 11/21/2002 8:32:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,when?
> tessimal@y... writes:
> > By the way, how do you who have all the answers choose to get
> > spelling into your children's realities? If not when they are
> > electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then
>Kelly:
> When they ask.
And did anyone inquire as to whether my daughter was asking about
spelling? Whether she recognized that she wanted to spell words
correctly? Whether it was her idea that motivated me to take
advantage of the situation? No. You all assumed that my daughter
had nothing to do with this. You know - ASSUME. Making and ASS out
of U and ME. Jumping off Assumption Point. I saw an appropriate
opportunity and I used it. It worked. She never had to be prompted,
ever, to check her own spelling. And I love the coded shorthand that
she and her friends use on IM now. Very creative. Has nothing to do
with formal written communication, nothing to do with spelling and
all its class distinguishing uppity-up conventions. Just as an e-
list has little to do with formal written communication, like what
one would expect in a book or article. This is supposed to be
spontaneous communcation, therefore probably lacking complete
information, therefore probably a good idea to ask questions first
and rip people apart later, if you must.
Norma
"What I can not create I can not understand." - Richard Feynman
Fetteroll
on 11/21/02 8:29 AM, tessimal at tessimal@... wrote:
may find challenging. (Or annoying. Or crushing.) But that's not
"motivating" someone.
We will all -- unschoolers and non -- have things we feel are important for
our children to learn. Just feeling that something is important doesn't mean
that we are then justified in setting up a hoop for a child to jump through
in order to get it into them. Just beceause that hoop worked, doesn't mean
it's part of the unschooling philosophy.
A simple (perhaps simplistic) test for whether something we'd like to do is
unschooling or not is can the child say "No thanks."
*How* we go about incorporating the things we think are important into our
children's lives is the difference between schooling and unschooling.
Presumably those important things will be a natural part of our lives.
Presumably children will be able to see that *we* think they're important by
how we react to those things (which includes explanations about why we think
something is important) and the importance they play in our lives. Then they
get to decide if that's something that's important to them right now or not.
important for them to be. That doesn't make it wrong to have done it. It
doesn't make it wrong for someone else to think that's a great idea and try
it themselves. But just the fact that it works or even that the child
enjoyed it and later appreciated we did it to them doesn't make it
unschooling.
The list doesn't exist to control what people do or don't do in their homes.
If they want to incorporate coercive learning into their homeschooling,
that's their decision. But the list is here to help people understand how it
works when children have the freedom to learn what they want when they want.
The list is *NOT* a sharing of ideas that people who call themselves
unschoolers do. It's a sharing of ideas on how people are doing things in an
unschooling way. It's also an examination of those ideas under the light of
trusting our chldren to learn what they want and when they want.
If someone wants to help their child to spell, there's a *huge* number of
ideas they could use. Some of those ranging on the scale of very to slightly
coercive might even work. But this list exists to discuss how people have
helped their kids to spell (among other things!) *without* coercing them.
(And how they've helped themselves to cope with being torn between knowing
the importance of their chldren's need for self direction and feeling the
need to direct them.)
People can then say to themselves after reading unschoolish ways of doing
things "Yeah, but I don't want to go that far. I'm willing to compromise the
philosophy for some guarantees." That's up to them. But they can't make the
decision to compromise the philosophy unless they understand the philosophy.
And the list is here to help them understand the philosophy. Which it can't
do if the list is a sharing of "what works for me" without examining those
against the philsophy of unschooling.
Joyce
> AndWe can't motivate someone else. We can put barriers in their way that they
> since she was doing something she wanted to do, was highly motivated
> to do, I decided to motivate her a little more to polish up her
> spelling while she was at it.
may find challenging. (Or annoying. Or crushing.) But that's not
"motivating" someone.
We will all -- unschoolers and non -- have things we feel are important for
our children to learn. Just feeling that something is important doesn't mean
that we are then justified in setting up a hoop for a child to jump through
in order to get it into them. Just beceause that hoop worked, doesn't mean
it's part of the unschooling philosophy.
A simple (perhaps simplistic) test for whether something we'd like to do is
unschooling or not is can the child say "No thanks."
*How* we go about incorporating the things we think are important into our
children's lives is the difference between schooling and unschooling.
Presumably those important things will be a natural part of our lives.
Presumably children will be able to see that *we* think they're important by
how we react to those things (which includes explanations about why we think
something is important) and the importance they play in our lives. Then they
get to decide if that's something that's important to them right now or not.
> but suggesting that she also learn to check her spelling while sheIt's easy to justify any method to get a child somewhere we think it's
> did this was a good move, one that I have never had to repeat since.
important for them to be. That doesn't make it wrong to have done it. It
doesn't make it wrong for someone else to think that's a great idea and try
it themselves. But just the fact that it works or even that the child
enjoyed it and later appreciated we did it to them doesn't make it
unschooling.
The list doesn't exist to control what people do or don't do in their homes.
If they want to incorporate coercive learning into their homeschooling,
that's their decision. But the list is here to help people understand how it
works when children have the freedom to learn what they want when they want.
The list is *NOT* a sharing of ideas that people who call themselves
unschoolers do. It's a sharing of ideas on how people are doing things in an
unschooling way. It's also an examination of those ideas under the light of
trusting our chldren to learn what they want and when they want.
If someone wants to help their child to spell, there's a *huge* number of
ideas they could use. Some of those ranging on the scale of very to slightly
coercive might even work. But this list exists to discuss how people have
helped their kids to spell (among other things!) *without* coercing them.
(And how they've helped themselves to cope with being torn between knowing
the importance of their chldren's need for self direction and feeling the
need to direct them.)
People can then say to themselves after reading unschoolish ways of doing
things "Yeah, but I don't want to go that far. I'm willing to compromise the
philosophy for some guarantees." That's up to them. But they can't make the
decision to compromise the philosophy unless they understand the philosophy.
And the list is here to help them understand the philosophy. Which it can't
do if the list is a sharing of "what works for me" without examining those
against the philsophy of unschooling.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 2:25:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
fetteroll@... writes:
Mine is 10 and has shown absolutely no interest - truth be told I'm getting a
little concerned. Although, I was concerned at 8 when he didn't read and
that certainly took care of itself! :)
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> If someone wants to help their child to spell, there's a *huge* number ofThat's what I want to know! Can we discuss ways to help your child spell?
> ideas they could use. Some of those ranging on the scale of very to
> slightly
> coercive might even work. But this list exists to discuss how people have
> helped their kids to spell (among other things!) *without* coercing them.
> (And how they've helped themselves to cope with being torn between knowing
> the importance of their chldren's need for self direction and feeling the
> need to direct them.)
>
Mine is 10 and has shown absolutely no interest - truth be told I'm getting a
little concerned. Although, I was concerned at 8 when he didn't read and
that certainly took care of itself! :)
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherry
<<If someone wants to help their child to spell, there's a *huge* number
of ideas they could use. Some of those ranging on the scale of very to
slightly coercive might even work. But this list exists to discuss how
people have helped their kids to spell (among other things!) *without*
coercing them. (And how they've helped themselves to cope with being
torn between knowing the importance of their chldren's need for self
direction and feeling the need to direct them.)>>
I admit I am new to this board and not totally in the unschooling frame
of mind yet...that is still a work in progress, but I have a question. I
understand that unschooling is child led learning, and the child has the
ultimate say in what and how things are learned. But if the child wants
to be a better speller, how would you go about helping them? I don't
think spelling lists are the most exciting way of doing that, but would
it be considered unschooling to use them? This is completely
hypothetical for me so let me give you a real life example.
My 4 1/2 y.o. really wants to know how to read. We have a few VTECH
phonics type toys (all gifts from family members...I don't really like
them), and he's been goofing around with them lately. After watching him
for a while it seemed to me he was not really getting what the toy was
trying to teach him so we sat down and did it together. At first he was
really into it and was paying attention and getting it. Then a few
minutes later he got bored. Fine, I continued to play with it...just
wanted to see what it could do, and I thought if he was it in action he
would be interested. He watched me play then came back. We sat together
for about 20 minutes "doing" phonics and spelling. To me this feels like
unschooling, but it was not totally his idea to play with it the
"correct" way, I lead that. But it was his decision to leave the game,
then observe me and return to it. I am also looking into phonics
programs and books (like Hooked on Phonics). He is REALLY motivated, and
I want to help him. What are your thoughts?
Sherry
of ideas they could use. Some of those ranging on the scale of very to
slightly coercive might even work. But this list exists to discuss how
people have helped their kids to spell (among other things!) *without*
coercing them. (And how they've helped themselves to cope with being
torn between knowing the importance of their chldren's need for self
direction and feeling the need to direct them.)>>
I admit I am new to this board and not totally in the unschooling frame
of mind yet...that is still a work in progress, but I have a question. I
understand that unschooling is child led learning, and the child has the
ultimate say in what and how things are learned. But if the child wants
to be a better speller, how would you go about helping them? I don't
think spelling lists are the most exciting way of doing that, but would
it be considered unschooling to use them? This is completely
hypothetical for me so let me give you a real life example.
My 4 1/2 y.o. really wants to know how to read. We have a few VTECH
phonics type toys (all gifts from family members...I don't really like
them), and he's been goofing around with them lately. After watching him
for a while it seemed to me he was not really getting what the toy was
trying to teach him so we sat down and did it together. At first he was
really into it and was paying attention and getting it. Then a few
minutes later he got bored. Fine, I continued to play with it...just
wanted to see what it could do, and I thought if he was it in action he
would be interested. He watched me play then came back. We sat together
for about 20 minutes "doing" phonics and spelling. To me this feels like
unschooling, but it was not totally his idea to play with it the
"correct" way, I lead that. But it was his decision to leave the game,
then observe me and return to it. I am also looking into phonics
programs and books (like Hooked on Phonics). He is REALLY motivated, and
I want to help him. What are your thoughts?
Sherry
Natural Simplicity Momma
That's what I want to know! Can we discuss ways to help your child spell?
Mine is 10 and has shown absolutely no interest - truth be told I'm getting a
little concerned. Although, I was concerned at 8 when he didn't read and
that certainly took care of itself! :)
Beth
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mine is 10 and has shown absolutely no interest - truth be told I'm getting a
little concerned. Although, I was concerned at 8 when he didn't read and
that certainly took care of itself! :)
Beth
>>>>Well this may be not considered kosher here. My children WANT to learn the correct spelling. They ask ALL the time. Some things I do to prompt writing and thus spelling is asking my DS to make the grocery list while I dictate it to him. He does not mind and it helps me. This morning it was done as I cooked some waffles. His spelling is horrible. BUT I think the more he asks and uses it in everyday life the better he will grasp it. My girls like to make cards for DH and I and will ask. They just made out their Christmas lists and ask how to spell and I tell them. I try to help them sound out BUT if I see frustration I will dictate to them the spelling. My 3yo wanted to know how to spell his name. He can now recite it even though he does not have the manual dexterity to write it. I figure it will help with letter recognition. When we read books sometimes I will point out the letters in the book that are in his name or in mommy or daddy or his siblings. Not sure if this helps or not since mine WANT to know how things spell. But maybe some ideas to bring spelling into real living.
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tessimal
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
<>A simple (perhaps simplistic) test for whether something we'd like
to do is unschooling or not is can the child say "No thanks."<>
Yes, she could have said, "No thanks." But she didn't.
<>Presumably those important things will be a natural part of our
lives. Presumably children will be able to see that *we* think
they're important by how we react to those things (which includes
explanations about why we think something is important) and the
importance they play in our lives. Then they get to decide if that's
something that's important to them right now or not.<>
Since you are sending me back to the archives please go back and read
my original post on this, where I took the position that spelling is
enforced convention, that historically speaking is relatively new and
used as one of many means to distinguish "class." I was defending
not pushing spelling, and not getting uptight about that convention.
How a few of you decided to nitpick, and nitpick truly is the right
word, my use of "allow" into what has ensued is beyond me.
<>The list doesn't exist to control what people do or don't do in
their homes. If they want to incorporate coercive learning into
their homeschooling, that's their decision. But the list is here to
help people understand how it works when children have the freedom to
learn what they want when they want.<>
Oooh, can I come over to your house on the day my daughter wants to
learn the physics involved in what happens when a big rock, or
baseball, is thrown through window glass? And she wants to do it
over and over again until she get the principle involved? Can I,
please?
Or, can we all meet at your place when she tries pouring candle wax
on the carpet to see what the chemical and physical reaction is? I
like your ideas, but, you see, I just can't afford to pay for the
consequences. So, since you think so highly of these ideas and think
badly of me for thinking of things like consequences (like what could
happen to my business computer, my windows, or my carpet, and being a
responsible adult and parent), then I would love to try some of these
things at your house. Okay?
> The list is *NOT* a sharing of ideas that people who call themselves
> unschoolers do. It's a sharing of ideas on how people are doing
things in an
> unschooling way. It's also an examination of those ideas under the
light of
> trusting our chldren to learn what they want and when they want.
So, it is a closed list. Assumes that everyone on it must already
know all your definitional specifics.
<>But they can't make the decision to compromise the philosophy
unless they understand the philosophy. And the list is here to help
them understand the philosophy. Which it can't do if the list is a
sharing of "what works for me" without examining those against the
philsophy of unschooling.<>
Wow. Have you ever mastered doublespeak! Since no one can
understand the philosophy because you're not going to spell it out
for them, but instead tell them to go read through the archives (a
monumental task, at best) and learn for themselves. Catch-22! And
you are not asking people to examine anything against "the philosophy
of unschooling" but against your own specific philosophy of what you
feel constitutes unschooling. Except when it comes to adults, who
are exempt from being able to do "what they want and when they want,"
because they must conform to what you want and when you want it! I
get it now. Thanks for explaining that.
Norma
Karin
You keep wanting a definition of unschooling.
Joyce did offer a simple way to determine if one is unschooling, below.
You said that your daughter was given freedom to say "no" but chose to
accept your help in spelling.
So it seems to me that you were unschooling.
No need to make this more than it is (or was).
Karin
tessimal@... wrote:
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
Joyce did offer a simple way to determine if one is unschooling, below.
You said that your daughter was given freedom to say "no" but chose to
accept your help in spelling.
So it seems to me that you were unschooling.
No need to make this more than it is (or was).
Karin
tessimal@... wrote:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
> <>A simple (perhaps simplistic) test for whether something we'd like
> to do is unschooling or not is can the child say "No thanks."<>
>
> Yes, she could have said, "No thanks." But she didn't.
>
>
> Wow. Have you ever mastered doublespeak! Since no one can
> understand the philosophy because you're not going to spell it out
> for them, but instead tell them to go read through the archives (a
> monumental task, at best) and learn for themselves. Catch-22! And
> you are not asking people to examine anything against "the philosophy
> of unschooling" but against your own specific philosophy of what you
> feel constitutes unschooling. Except when it comes to adults, who
> are exempt from being able to do "what they want and when they want,"
> because they must conform to what you want and when you want it! I
> get it now. Thanks for explaining that.
>
> Norma
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>email to:
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 2:52:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!, craun@...
writes:
got one who may never ask! LOL
Do you correct their spelling?
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> But maybe some ideas to bring spelling into real living.That's a good idea......I'm all for waiting until they ask to learn but I've
>
>
got one who may never ask! LOL
Do you correct their spelling?
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachel Ann
Does he enjoy writing? Why not let him write and use a spell checker...then it will underline words he has wrong and he can correct them the.
Or ask if he would like to learn a word a day. Weird words are fun, but if they follow basic spelling rules you can use them to *teach* as well. It could be a game...for instance:
baize coarse napped cotton or wool fabric
similar spelling to maize. find out if they are related words in terms of country of origin.
OR: have a hopping spelling game. Mother-may-I spelling game.
Just reading a lot can work for some children; others will not be able to extrapolate from what they read to what they write.
playing change a letter is fun; Look into Hear for instance, and can help with learning the spelling of simpler words. (look, Rook, rooM, roAm, roaR, Hoar, hEar.)
be well,
Rachel Ann
Or ask if he would like to learn a word a day. Weird words are fun, but if they follow basic spelling rules you can use them to *teach* as well. It could be a game...for instance:
baize coarse napped cotton or wool fabric
similar spelling to maize. find out if they are related words in terms of country of origin.
OR: have a hopping spelling game. Mother-may-I spelling game.
Just reading a lot can work for some children; others will not be able to extrapolate from what they read to what they write.
playing change a letter is fun; Look into Hear for instance, and can help with learning the spelling of simpler words. (look, Rook, rooM, roAm, roaR, Hoar, hEar.)
be well,
Rachel Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: Natural Simplicity Momma
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: school at homers/spelling
That's what I want to know! Can we discuss ways to help your child spell?
Mine is 10 and has shown absolutely no interest - truth be told I'm getting a
little concerned. Although, I was concerned at 8 when he didn't read and
that certainly took care of itself! :)
Beth
>>>>
Well this may be not considered kosher here. My children WANT to learn the correct spelling. They ask ALL the time. Some things I do to prompt writing and thus spelling is asking my DS to make the grocery list while I dictate it to him. He does not mind and it helps me. This morning it was done as I cooked some waffles. His spelling is horrible. BUT I think the more he asks and uses it in everyday life the better he will grasp it. My girls like to make cards for DH and I and will ask. They just made out their Christmas lists and ask how to spell and I tell them. I try to help them sound out BUT if I see frustration I will dictate to them the spelling. My 3yo wanted to know how to spell his name. He can now recite it even though he does not have the manual dexterity to write it. I figure it will help with letter recognition. When we read books sometimes I will point out the letters in the book that are in hi...
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Natural Simplicity Momma
That's a good idea......I'm all for waiting until they ask to learn but I've
got one who may never ask! LOL
Do you correct their spelling?
Beth
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
got one who may never ask! LOL
Do you correct their spelling?
Beth
>>>>>>>>.If they do it on their own without asking I do look it over and praise the words that they spell right and sometimes I do say something about misspelled words BUT I do not make them change things unless THEY choose too. They usually do because they are perfectionists :o) Most of the time it is a non issue though because they ask if unsure.
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 3:05:26 PM !!!First Boot!!!, hindar@...
writes:
I like the game idea....Scrabble would be a good one, too, yes? He loves to
play games. Oh, Boggle is another one.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Does he enjoy writing? Why not let him write and use a spell checker...thenNo, he hates it and fights any and all attempts ;)
> it will underline words he has wrong and he can correct them the.
>
I like the game idea....Scrabble would be a good one, too, yes? He loves to
play games. Oh, Boggle is another one.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***I am VERY new to homeschooling and unschooling and if I have ?s or
need support I am not sure I will post it on this list. Seems to be more
of a debate forum. I am not so sure that newbies to unschooling would
get any helpful support here? Why am I still here? Because I am hoping
that when I need some help maybe it will be a calm day and I will be able
to get some advice and guidance not peppered by hostility or holier then
thou attitudes.***
I guess I don't understand how you can hope for unschooling advice on an
unschooling list but think the people giving the advice should be doing
something else.
Really, I'm lost. You will get unschooling advice here.
Do you want people here to just tell you that anything you want to do is
unschooling? I'm seriously asking because I don't understand what it
is you hope to find here, if it's not real information about what
unschooling is and how to live as an unschooler.
Do you think everyone with more experience than you, say in car
mechanics, brain surgery or cooking is being "holier than thou" if they
tell you there is a way to go about the job that is right and a way that
isn't?
I don't see the hostility here that you seem to see. Is it possible you
feel picked on in your real life and so are overly sensitive to
discussions here? I have not seen anyone call anyone else names or
tell them they're stupid or say they're going to hell or anything else.
What is the hostility? If I say I'll be performing brain surgery today
with my knitting needles and a brain surgeon says, STOP, that's not how
you do it, is she being hostile?
Maybe I need more coffee, but I just don't get it.
Deb L, not hostile, just confused... as usual, looking for knitting
needles, (husband's still sleeping <EG>
need support I am not sure I will post it on this list. Seems to be more
of a debate forum. I am not so sure that newbies to unschooling would
get any helpful support here? Why am I still here? Because I am hoping
that when I need some help maybe it will be a calm day and I will be able
to get some advice and guidance not peppered by hostility or holier then
thou attitudes.***
I guess I don't understand how you can hope for unschooling advice on an
unschooling list but think the people giving the advice should be doing
something else.
Really, I'm lost. You will get unschooling advice here.
Do you want people here to just tell you that anything you want to do is
unschooling? I'm seriously asking because I don't understand what it
is you hope to find here, if it's not real information about what
unschooling is and how to live as an unschooler.
Do you think everyone with more experience than you, say in car
mechanics, brain surgery or cooking is being "holier than thou" if they
tell you there is a way to go about the job that is right and a way that
isn't?
I don't see the hostility here that you seem to see. Is it possible you
feel picked on in your real life and so are overly sensitive to
discussions here? I have not seen anyone call anyone else names or
tell them they're stupid or say they're going to hell or anything else.
What is the hostility? If I say I'll be performing brain surgery today
with my knitting needles and a brain surgeon says, STOP, that's not how
you do it, is she being hostile?
Maybe I need more coffee, but I just don't get it.
Deb L, not hostile, just confused... as usual, looking for knitting
needles, (husband's still sleeping <EG>
Rachel Ann
Esther and I play a cooperative game of Upwords that she likes sometimes...
Just work together and mkae suggestions, along the lines of solicross?
be well,
Rachel Ann
Just work together and mkae suggestions, along the lines of solicross?
be well,
Rachel Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: EBA7009@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: school at homers/spelling
In a message dated 11/21/02 3:05:26 PM !!!First Boot!!!, hindar@...
writes:
> Does he enjoy writing? Why not let him write and use a spell checker...then
> it will underline words he has wrong and he can correct them the.
>
No, he hates it and fights any and all attempts ;)
I like the game idea....Scrabble would be a good one, too, yes? He loves to
play games. Oh, Boggle is another one.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***That's what I want to know! Can we discuss ways to help your child
spell?
Mine is 10 and has shown absolutely no interest - truth be told I'm
getting a
little concerned. Although, I was concerned at 8 when he didn't read and
that certainly took care of itself! :)***
My ten year old still uses invented spelling. He reads and has a visual
memory but for some reason he doesn't connect the words he reads to words
he wants to write. I can read his writing, but almost nothing is
spelled correctly.
I'm not worried about it. I have seen him learn so many things that I
know he's going to want to spell well one day and then he'll pay
attention to the way words are spelled in the books he reads.
He writes stories all the time and I mean, real stories, long,
complicated, etc. I think he may always like to write and I think
leaning to spell will come naturally.
When he's writing something someone outside the family will have to read
he asks for spelling help. He doesn't expect everyone to be as gifted at
decoding his writing as his mom and dad are.<g> He has nice penmanship
and when he asks for spelling help and gets everything just right he's
happy with the way it looks. I know these things will eventually
encourage him to pay more attention to spelling correctly.
I'm also glad for spell checkers, just in case.<g>
Deb L
spell?
Mine is 10 and has shown absolutely no interest - truth be told I'm
getting a
little concerned. Although, I was concerned at 8 when he didn't read and
that certainly took care of itself! :)***
My ten year old still uses invented spelling. He reads and has a visual
memory but for some reason he doesn't connect the words he reads to words
he wants to write. I can read his writing, but almost nothing is
spelled correctly.
I'm not worried about it. I have seen him learn so many things that I
know he's going to want to spell well one day and then he'll pay
attention to the way words are spelled in the books he reads.
He writes stories all the time and I mean, real stories, long,
complicated, etc. I think he may always like to write and I think
leaning to spell will come naturally.
When he's writing something someone outside the family will have to read
he asks for spelling help. He doesn't expect everyone to be as gifted at
decoding his writing as his mom and dad are.<g> He has nice penmanship
and when he asks for spelling help and gets everything just right he's
happy with the way it looks. I know these things will eventually
encourage him to pay more attention to spelling correctly.
I'm also glad for spell checkers, just in case.<g>
Deb L
Natural Simplicity Momma
Really, I'm lost. You will get unschooling advice here.
Do you want people here to just tell you that anything you want to do is
unschooling? I'm seriously asking because I don't understand what it
is you hope to find here, if it's not real information about what
unschooling is and how to live as an unschooler.
Without knowing each other more personally I would never venture to speak to another so harshly.
Again JMHO from a newbie that most likely has no right to even be here venturing ANY opinions.
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Do you want people here to just tell you that anything you want to do is
unschooling? I'm seriously asking because I don't understand what it
is you hope to find here, if it's not real information about what
unschooling is and how to live as an unschooler.
>>>>I think unschooling can be defined and practiced MANY ways. However I have seen bickering here. I have seen TONS of judgments made. I have also seen some advice but honestly from an outsider looking in at this group it seems a clique. There are no definitive right and wrongs here. This is ONLY email.
Without knowing each other more personally I would never venture to speak to another so harshly.
Again JMHO from a newbie that most likely has no right to even be here venturing ANY opinions.
Sherry
Unschooling Soap Diva WAHM to 4 :o)
"Education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire."
Wm. Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
This is pretty harsh Norma, when Joyce has been calm and thoughtful.
You seem to be very defensive. It seems excessive. Are you ok?
Really, is something else wrong? Because this seems like too much.
No one is trying to hurt you.
Deb L
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:50:21 -0000 "tessimal" <tessimal@...>
writes:
You seem to be very defensive. It seems excessive. Are you ok?
Really, is something else wrong? Because this seems like too much.
No one is trying to hurt you.
Deb L
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:50:21 -0000 "tessimal" <tessimal@...>
writes:
>
> Oooh, can I come over to your house on the day my daughter wants to
>
> learn the physics involved in what happens when a big rock, or
> baseball, is thrown through window glass? And she wants to do it
> over and over again until she get the principle involved? Can I,
> please?
>
> Or, can we all meet at your place when she tries pouring candle wax
>
> the carpet to see what the chemical and physical reaction is? I
> like your ideas, but, you see, I just can't afford to pay for the
> consequences. So, since you think so highly of these ideas and
> think
> badly of me for thinking of things like consequences (like what
> could
> happen to my business computer, my windows, or my carpet, and being
> a
> responsible adult and parent), then I would love to try some of
> these
> things at your house. Okay?
>
> So, it is a closed list. Assumes that everyone on it must already
> know all your definitional specifics.
>
> Wow. Have you ever mastered doublespeak! Since no one can
> understand the philosophy because you're not going to spell it out
> for them, but instead tell them to go read through the archives (a
> monumental task, at best) and learn for themselves. Catch-22! And
> you are not asking people to examine anything against "the
> philosophy
> of unschooling" but against your own specific philosophy of what you
>
> feel constitutes unschooling. Except when it comes to adults, who
> are exempt from being able to do "what they want and when they
> want,"
> because they must conform to what you want and when you want it! I
>
> get it now. Thanks for explaining that.
>
> Norma
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 3:38:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!, ddzimlew@...
writes:
stories and is a great reader! Thanks for the encouragement - sometimes
that's all we really need :)
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I'm also glad for spell checkers, just in case.<g>Great! This sounds so much like my son who also writes long, complicated
>
> Deb L
>
stories and is a great reader! Thanks for the encouragement - sometimes
that's all we really need :)
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***I think unschooling can be defined and practiced MANY ways. However I
have seen bickering here. I have seen TONS of judgments made. I have
also seen some advice but honestly from an outsider looking in at this
group it seems a clique. There are no definitive right and wrongs here.
This is ONLY email.
Without knowing each other more personally I would never venture to speak
to another so harshly.
Again JMHO from a newbie that most likely has no right to even be here
venturing ANY opinions.***
For this list anyway, unschooling and it's practice is defined in the
intro. Other unschooling lists might be different.
I guess what you see as bickering I see as discussion. And I think
learning new things requires a lot of judgement. A lot, and maybe I'm
not as squeamish about "judgements" as some because I don't give a poo
poo for a person who doesn't have any judgement. Holy cow! If I
hadn't made a judgement that there was something better than school where
would my son be today? If I hadn't made a judgement that there was a
better way to think and a better way to live, his life wouldn't be as
good as it is now. It's all about judgement.
If someone asks I going to tell them what I think is better. If I hadn't
judged it to be better, why would I do it?
AND, folks here love opinions! Couldn't you tell?<G> They may get
questioned and challenged but if they're worth having, then they're worth
explaining.
This seems like a good time all around to look at the intro to this list
again.
Deb L
***Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn
what they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling
parent is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning
with curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the
what, when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to
Shakespeare to Spongebob Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or
you'd like to find out more about how video games and life in general are
filled with learning, come join us!
As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling
is *not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis. Everyone with an interest
in unschooling is welcome to join this discussion, but we ask that you
keep in mind the purpose of this list, which is to discuss unschooling in
ways designed to help each other become unschoolers or become better at
unschooling. We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a
"feel" for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have seen bickering here. I have seen TONS of judgments made. I have
also seen some advice but honestly from an outsider looking in at this
group it seems a clique. There are no definitive right and wrongs here.
This is ONLY email.
Without knowing each other more personally I would never venture to speak
to another so harshly.
Again JMHO from a newbie that most likely has no right to even be here
venturing ANY opinions.***
For this list anyway, unschooling and it's practice is defined in the
intro. Other unschooling lists might be different.
I guess what you see as bickering I see as discussion. And I think
learning new things requires a lot of judgement. A lot, and maybe I'm
not as squeamish about "judgements" as some because I don't give a poo
poo for a person who doesn't have any judgement. Holy cow! If I
hadn't made a judgement that there was something better than school where
would my son be today? If I hadn't made a judgement that there was a
better way to think and a better way to live, his life wouldn't be as
good as it is now. It's all about judgement.
If someone asks I going to tell them what I think is better. If I hadn't
judged it to be better, why would I do it?
AND, folks here love opinions! Couldn't you tell?<G> They may get
questioned and challenged but if they're worth having, then they're worth
explaining.
This seems like a good time all around to look at the intro to this list
again.
Deb L
***Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn
what they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling
parent is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning
with curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the
what, when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to
Shakespeare to Spongebob Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or
you'd like to find out more about how video games and life in general are
filled with learning, come join us!
As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling
is *not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis. Everyone with an interest
in unschooling is welcome to join this discussion, but we ask that you
keep in mind the purpose of this list, which is to discuss unschooling in
ways designed to help each other become unschoolers or become better at
unschooling. We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a
"feel" for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
> In a message dated 11/21/02 3:38:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!,Me too. Although sometimes the word is so misspelled the
> ddzimlew@... writes:
>
>
> > I'm also glad for spell checkers, just in case.<g>
> >
> > Deb L
> >
computer can't even guess what it might be :-)
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Sherry
When I was in high school we used to play "The Dictonary Game". I sure
you can buy a "real" game like this one, but any old dictionary will
just fine. The person who is "it" finds a word in the dictionary and
reads the word to the players. Everyone writes down their version of the
definition. The person with the dictionary writes the real answer. Then
all answers are read out loud by the person who is "it". Everyone has to
guess what the correct definition is. The people who get others to guess
their incorrect answer get one point, and if no gets the correct answer,
the person who is "it" gets 10 points. It's loads of fun!
Sherry
-----Original Message-----
From: EBA7009@... [mailto:EBA7009@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: school at homers/spelling
In a message dated 11/21/02 2:52:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
craun@...
writes:
I've
got one who may never ask! LOL
Do you correct their spelling?
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
you can buy a "real" game like this one, but any old dictionary will
just fine. The person who is "it" finds a word in the dictionary and
reads the word to the players. Everyone writes down their version of the
definition. The person with the dictionary writes the real answer. Then
all answers are read out loud by the person who is "it". Everyone has to
guess what the correct definition is. The people who get others to guess
their incorrect answer get one point, and if no gets the correct answer,
the person who is "it" gets 10 points. It's loads of fun!
Sherry
-----Original Message-----
From: EBA7009@... [mailto:EBA7009@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: school at homers/spelling
In a message dated 11/21/02 2:52:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
craun@...
writes:
> But maybe some ideas to bring spelling into real living.That's a good idea......I'm all for waiting until they ask to learn but
>
>
I've
got one who may never ask! LOL
Do you correct their spelling?
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Betsy
**I don't think this is an unschooling list at all, but an "if you
don't do it just like we do it, then you're not doing it right"
list. Whatever happened to my freedom of choice? My right to grab
an opportunity when it appropriately presents itself?**
People who are huffy about parental rights aren't wildly popular here.
** My choices are no better or no worse than anyone else's, and just
like support organizations, we all do better when folks are supportive,
not
attacking one another because you don't happen to agree with some
nitpicky little thing I carefully and consideredly chose to do.
**
We are here to support "unschooling" not "whatever". Not even
considerately chosen "whatever".
If you want to make your child spell properly on your timetable or
manipulate her into doing so, no one on this list is likely to applaud.
If that's not what you were doing, then go back to your original post
and rewrite it for clarity. Spelling isn't everything. Syntax and word
choice count, too.
Yes, this post isn't very nice. I'd have been nicer if you hadn't been
so hostile.
Betsy
don't do it just like we do it, then you're not doing it right"
list. Whatever happened to my freedom of choice? My right to grab
an opportunity when it appropriately presents itself?**
People who are huffy about parental rights aren't wildly popular here.
** My choices are no better or no worse than anyone else's, and just
like support organizations, we all do better when folks are supportive,
not
attacking one another because you don't happen to agree with some
nitpicky little thing I carefully and consideredly chose to do.
**
We are here to support "unschooling" not "whatever". Not even
considerately chosen "whatever".
If you want to make your child spell properly on your timetable or
manipulate her into doing so, no one on this list is likely to applaud.
If that's not what you were doing, then go back to your original post
and rewrite it for clarity. Spelling isn't everything. Syntax and word
choice count, too.
Yes, this post isn't very nice. I'd have been nicer if you hadn't been
so hostile.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 6:32:20 AM, tessimal@... writes:
<< By the way, how do you who have all the answers choose to get
spelling into your children's realities? If not when they are
electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when? >>
Nobody has all the answers. That doesn't mean nobody has any answers, or
that all answers are equally valid.
My children's realities include writing, and writing includes spelling. They
have learned to spell by asking questions when they didn't know how to spell
something. I didn't "get spelling" into their reality. Spelling predates
all our lives, and is larger than all of us.
<<If not when they are
electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when?>>
This question isn't very clear, but I think you are suggesting that if I
don't teach them spelling they won't ever choose to write.
My boys write daily online--games which are run by text, e-mail, and lots of
instant messages. When Holly asks how to spell a word, Marty (13) is as
likely to spell it for her as I am. He doesn't hang back waiting for me, nor
does he look at me to see if he's right. When he knows, he knows. He
didn't read until he was nine, but he reads and writes effortlessly and is
really pretty good with punctuation, too.
He's been working on the rules for an elaborate role-playing game for a year.
Nobody got that into his reality but him. The other night he was writing up
a little game which, he told me, used buildings as metaphors for
relationships. Each building was named for one of the teenaged girls he and
Kirby hang out with. Some are gamers, some are other homeschoolers, some in
the SCA. It was a funny game, with some astute observations, no meanness
whatsoever, and it WAS clearly metaphorical in detail. I never taught him
that word or concept. He picked it up by reading, and in conversation about
movies and stories.
We watched Brotherhood of the Wolf. He chose French with subtitles, he said
so he could see it as it was in the theater. There were a few hard words
come by, and I asked him if he knew what they meant, and he did. So I quit
asking after that. He understood the story on one viewing, and was answering
my questions, and his dad's.
ALL that language use contributes to more facility. Storytelling,
conversation, debate, summary/exposition (verbal or written), reading--all
that leads to clearer writing and spelling.
Sandra
<< By the way, how do you who have all the answers choose to get
spelling into your children's realities? If not when they are
electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when? >>
Nobody has all the answers. That doesn't mean nobody has any answers, or
that all answers are equally valid.
My children's realities include writing, and writing includes spelling. They
have learned to spell by asking questions when they didn't know how to spell
something. I didn't "get spelling" into their reality. Spelling predates
all our lives, and is larger than all of us.
<<If not when they are
electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when?>>
This question isn't very clear, but I think you are suggesting that if I
don't teach them spelling they won't ever choose to write.
My boys write daily online--games which are run by text, e-mail, and lots of
instant messages. When Holly asks how to spell a word, Marty (13) is as
likely to spell it for her as I am. He doesn't hang back waiting for me, nor
does he look at me to see if he's right. When he knows, he knows. He
didn't read until he was nine, but he reads and writes effortlessly and is
really pretty good with punctuation, too.
He's been working on the rules for an elaborate role-playing game for a year.
Nobody got that into his reality but him. The other night he was writing up
a little game which, he told me, used buildings as metaphors for
relationships. Each building was named for one of the teenaged girls he and
Kirby hang out with. Some are gamers, some are other homeschoolers, some in
the SCA. It was a funny game, with some astute observations, no meanness
whatsoever, and it WAS clearly metaphorical in detail. I never taught him
that word or concept. He picked it up by reading, and in conversation about
movies and stories.
We watched Brotherhood of the Wolf. He chose French with subtitles, he said
so he could see it as it was in the theater. There were a few hard words
come by, and I asked him if he knew what they meant, and he did. So I quit
asking after that. He understood the story on one viewing, and was answering
my questions, and his dad's.
ALL that language use contributes to more facility. Storytelling,
conversation, debate, summary/exposition (verbal or written), reading--all
that leads to clearer writing and spelling.
Sandra
[email protected]
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:45:30 -0600 "Sherry" <juicemom@...>
writes:
there was writing involved. She was concerned because her spelling was
below "grade level" and she felt self-conscious about writing stuff that
other people would see (and part of this may stem from an episode in
brownies when a kid asked her "What *grade * are you in?" after she asked
the group how to spell a word). We tossed around some ideas but we we
ended up doing was getting a copy of the Dolch list and I orally quizzed
her on each word list. After we'd done a list, I wrote up a list of the
words that she had missed (if she missed one but said "Oh, yeah, I know
that!" it didn't go on the list; if she got it right but wanted it on the
list because she felt shaky with it it did). Then I put words up one at a
time on our whiteboard. At first I just printed them, but early on she
decided she'd like to pratice cursive while she was at it, so I would do
cursive and printed.
At whatever point she felt like it, she would go and learn the word -
usually she'd write it a few times in print and cursive - and then check
it off as done. I'd erase it and do the next one. We started a word box
in the corner of the board for a while, but then she got through too many
and it took up too much room. I think she made it through four Dolch
lists before she tired of it all, in a period of maybe 2 months.
Occasionally she'd ask me to quiz her on the ones she'd already done, and
she retained almost all of them, as I recall.
We haven't done an "spelling" for a couple of months now, although she's
started doing some emailing. She seems to remember at least some of the
words, but I'm not sure how big an impact all that had on her spelling.
It made her feel more competent, for sure, but I'm pretty sure she would
have learned to spell the words anyway. I guess we just hurried up the
process a bit...
She does ask me how to spell things a lot when she writes, I'm not sure
if that's wanting to learn to spell or the fact that it's faster and
easier than trying to figure it out herself... it works out the same
anyway.
Dar
writes:
> But if the child wantsLast summer, my daughter (9) was in a theater workshop and found out that
> to be a better speller, how would you go about helping them?
there was writing involved. She was concerned because her spelling was
below "grade level" and she felt self-conscious about writing stuff that
other people would see (and part of this may stem from an episode in
brownies when a kid asked her "What *grade * are you in?" after she asked
the group how to spell a word). We tossed around some ideas but we we
ended up doing was getting a copy of the Dolch list and I orally quizzed
her on each word list. After we'd done a list, I wrote up a list of the
words that she had missed (if she missed one but said "Oh, yeah, I know
that!" it didn't go on the list; if she got it right but wanted it on the
list because she felt shaky with it it did). Then I put words up one at a
time on our whiteboard. At first I just printed them, but early on she
decided she'd like to pratice cursive while she was at it, so I would do
cursive and printed.
At whatever point she felt like it, she would go and learn the word -
usually she'd write it a few times in print and cursive - and then check
it off as done. I'd erase it and do the next one. We started a word box
in the corner of the board for a while, but then she got through too many
and it took up too much room. I think she made it through four Dolch
lists before she tired of it all, in a period of maybe 2 months.
Occasionally she'd ask me to quiz her on the ones she'd already done, and
she retained almost all of them, as I recall.
We haven't done an "spelling" for a couple of months now, although she's
started doing some emailing. She seems to remember at least some of the
words, but I'm not sure how big an impact all that had on her spelling.
It made her feel more competent, for sure, but I'm pretty sure she would
have learned to spell the words anyway. I guess we just hurried up the
process a bit...
She does ask me how to spell things a lot when she writes, I'm not sure
if that's wanting to learn to spell or the fact that it's faster and
easier than trying to figure it out herself... it works out the same
anyway.
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 7:45:46 AM, juicemom@... writes:
<< But if the child wants
to be a better speller, how would you go about helping them? >>
Holly liked to see words that looked like her name. Dolly. Molly. Folly.
I didn't confuse her with words that don't look like it (trolley or crawlie).
Sometimes I would give her a list of names and let her figure out which were
which. Like all our cats' names, or the names of the people in the family.
She liked word-find puzzles, and our old computer had a program to generate
them to print. I would put in the names of her friends, and make them
copies too.
It was playing, though, not "work," and I think that made the difference.
Often if a kid asks for a spelling, I'll give them an additional clue or
connection. A kind of two-for-one. But not if they're in the midst of
writing something important. Then I just spell. But if they're just musing
or wondering how a word came to be the way it is, I might tell them what the
root word is (which sometimes helps them remember how to spell it) or say "It
starts like Christ and Christmas, because it's from Greek--chiropractor," or
whatever the word is. Or if I have a trick, I pass it on. "There's a rat in
'separate'" is a trick an old boyfriend taught me for spelling "separate."
And for i before e, "Weird is weird" (doesn't follow the rule).
Sandra
<< But if the child wants
to be a better speller, how would you go about helping them? >>
Holly liked to see words that looked like her name. Dolly. Molly. Folly.
I didn't confuse her with words that don't look like it (trolley or crawlie).
Sometimes I would give her a list of names and let her figure out which were
which. Like all our cats' names, or the names of the people in the family.
She liked word-find puzzles, and our old computer had a program to generate
them to print. I would put in the names of her friends, and make them
copies too.
It was playing, though, not "work," and I think that made the difference.
Often if a kid asks for a spelling, I'll give them an additional clue or
connection. A kind of two-for-one. But not if they're in the midst of
writing something important. Then I just spell. But if they're just musing
or wondering how a word came to be the way it is, I might tell them what the
root word is (which sometimes helps them remember how to spell it) or say "It
starts like Christ and Christmas, because it's from Greek--chiropractor," or
whatever the word is. Or if I have a trick, I pass it on. "There's a rat in
'separate'" is a trick an old boyfriend taught me for spelling "separate."
And for i before e, "Weird is weird" (doesn't follow the rule).
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>Nothing at all wrong with all this, unless you want to call it unschooling.
> But that's just one way I do "unschooling": I make use of whatever
> opportunity presents itself. But, sure, why not assume the worst of
> anyone. Maybe that is not what you would have done. So what? I saw
> it as a great opportunity. It worked, all around. She wanted to
> play chess online and chat and I needed to supervise that online
> time, so might as well make it work. Besides, I see nothing wrong
> with encouraging a child who is choosing to communicate in written
> form to spell and communicate correctly, to learn to check her
> spelling.
Unschooling is about letting the child make the educational decisions with
no carrots or sticks affecting their decision. Sure what you did "worked".
All kinds of educational methods "work". They also often teach other things
besides what they're meant to teach, like that someone else knows better
what I should learn right now than I do. This is something that I want to
avoid as an unschooler. I'm not saying that we should always let our kids
discover everything for themselves. Often it's a good thing to tell our
kids about the importance of something like spelling. But making correct
spelling the key that gets the kid what she wants is not unschooling.
It's quite possible that this is the only time you ever coerced your
daughter into learning something. If that's the case, your record is way
better than mine. But to say it on an unschooling list and then defend it
as a good unschooling practice is not going to help someone who is still
trying to wrap their mind around the unschooling philosophy. The things I've
done with my son that were not unschooling are not things that I'm going to
try to defend here. Any time I bring them up, it's to caution others
against doing what I did.
My right to grab
> an opportunity when it appropriately presents itself? Oh, well. YouThat's absolutely true. But if you want to be left alone here, you need to
> all go play with your "red flags" and leave me alone! I have as many
> rights to make those kinds of calls as you do.
not post things about coercing your children into learning, because people
*will* call you on it on this list.
> By the way, how do you who have all the answers choose to getI certainly don't have all the answers, but how about when they are electing
> spelling into your children's realities? If not when they are
> electing to write, motivated to do so all by themselves, then when?
to write, motivated to do so all by themselves *and* have asked for help
with it.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 8:48:55 AM, craun@... writes:
<< There are no definitive right and wrongs here. This is ONLY email. >>
If something helps a mom get along better with her kids and she was glad of
the information, it doesn't matter if she got it whispered in her ear,
written in the sky, by e-mail or calligraphed on vellum.
It's the information that's important, not the medium.
Not long ago we had a discussion on spanking. There are some serious
"wrongs" involved, and some people's real lives were changed. So where's
the "only" in that e-mail?
And it's not "only e-mail," it's a part of a larger unschooling forum,
www.unschooling.com. And the e-mail list has searchable archives. So we're
creating a repository of information and ideas.
Sandra
<< There are no definitive right and wrongs here. This is ONLY email. >>
If something helps a mom get along better with her kids and she was glad of
the information, it doesn't matter if she got it whispered in her ear,
written in the sky, by e-mail or calligraphed on vellum.
It's the information that's important, not the medium.
Not long ago we had a discussion on spanking. There are some serious
"wrongs" involved, and some people's real lives were changed. So where's
the "only" in that e-mail?
And it's not "only e-mail," it's a part of a larger unschooling forum,
www.unschooling.com. And the e-mail list has searchable archives. So we're
creating a repository of information and ideas.
Sandra